@Baccus0902 - I disagree. A truly educated person can make choices based on
both science and those things that we can't fully understand. Faith is
needed and a truly educated person will see that his/her understanding is not
complete and that faith is necessary. BYU and other religious schools seek to
maintain a rounded educational experience rather than teaching students to rely
completely on current known sources.And to call what religious
universities teach 'indoctrination' is amusing. Nothing is forced on
the student, the student is encouraged to study and learn and to thus be in a
position to make the appropriate determinations on a subject. Rather than being
a limiting experience a truly rounded education is freeing.
"And I thought that the idea behind higher education was to educate, not
indoctrinate."I went to BYU, and I went to USC. I saw no less
indoctrination at the latter than the former.
The Wraith. Other religions have a system of works, which will make you
“good enough” to please God Christianity is based on the biblical
principle that we can never be good enough to be in the presence of a perfect,
holy God. The Mosaic Law was given to prove to us that we
can’t keep it. Gal 3 describes the purpose of the Law. It is a
“tutor” or “schoolmaster” to lead us to Christ because
“…by observing the law no one will be justified” (Gal 2:16).
The impossibility of keeping the Law is what Jesus called the “first and
greatest commandment” in Mt 22:37: “Love the Lord your God with all
your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” This would mean
loving God with every fiber of our being 24/7, an impossible task for anyone.
Jesus Christ, who obeyed the Law perfectly for us, By faith in Him we are
justified and made righteous. “It is a dreadful thing to fall
into the hands of the living God.”(Heb 10:31)
There are those who demand that Christ change the rules to enter the
Father's presence. Do they really think that Christ cares about their
"politically correct agenda"? He paid the price. He sets the rules. The
1.6% who disagree with Him aren't going to gain any respect by telling us
that they know more than Christ about proper and appropriate conduct and they
certainly don't have the right to set the rules for the Atonement.
ordinary folkYes you do have it wrong. Todays colleges and
universities are dominated by the teachings of the secular left. There is
little or no balance on political or social issues. Even to the point that
students are fearful of not toeing the PC line lest their professors and or
fellow students punish them. So it goes both ways, only while there may be a
handful of conservative/religous institutions in America, there are hundreds of
colleges and universities that go the liberal way. To the point that a
terrorist like Bill Ayers can teach at a major university. I doubt that, had he
lived, Timothy McVey would have ended up a tenured professor at BYU, or
@Uncle Rico"Religion teaches killing is bad"Anyone who
needs religion to tell them killing is bad has some serious issues. By the way,
when did Japan, Canada, Western Europe, and New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine
(the 3 most atheist states in the US) become lawless?
@ BRYou wrote:"Liberals set their standards and try
to force them on every body’s throat, not giving others the right of an
opinion. I don't like to watch baseball but I don't hate those that
enjoy. The list of things that I don't participate goes on: drugs, alcohol,
opera, swearing, tattoos, LGBT, curling, tanning, etc. Do I hate those that
participate? NO. Why liberals charge me with hate because I don’t agree
with them? This is hate and intolerance "Did you notice that
your list of not likes are objects, activities, and LGBT?You are
talking about people... Change LGBT for : Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Italians,
women, Native Americans, handicapped people, etc. that would be considered
@ Liberal Ted:"If a cross dresser doesn't feel welcomed, because
they are not allowed to cross dress....that is something they need to think
about before signing the dotted line."This may be a shocker to
you, but, the fact a school of higher learning that forbids "not harmful
behavior" on its student body because of perceived "moral concerns"
. It is a school that is limiting itself and its students to the real world.
@ Johnny TriumphYou wrote:" Good for BYU and the other
schools for turning out an educated, religious, group of people. It's
always nice to see young people who are not afraid to stand up for their
values."Johnny, educated and religious don't necessarily
exclude eachother. However, many religious institutions sacrifice truth as we
know it through science or empirical evidence on favor of dogma. Such
institutions cannot claim to produce educated professionals.
@Patriot, First of all I can't think of any movie or book that has so many
instances of violence and immoral misdeeds all done by god in the old testament.
So you should probably re read or first time read your bible. Secondly, Thank
you @The Wraith, for explaining that the Ten Commandments were not a innovative
set of laws. I would also say that pure logic can determine this, by asking was
death, adultery and stealing, within the parameters of acceptable social
behavior predating the 10 commandments? Of course it wasn't, egyptians, and
asian societies had written records of punishments for these acts. It helps to
step outside of your confirmation biasthirdly, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin
Franklin, and Thomas Paine did not believe in the christian religion, they were
deists (belief in a God who does not interfere in personal matters) They all
condemned the christian version of God and the bible. In this case it
wouldn't be a bad thing to be a little more open to facts about American
As far as U.S. History you are mostly correct in saying that the individuals we
call the “Founding Fathers” were Christian but their idea of
Christianity varied greatly from any modern interpretation of the faith. And
some of them would have preferred the term deist, and a couple were even
atheists. Shocking I know. The Constitution actually shows almost no influence
of Christian religion. But that’s mainly because it’s a very legal
document concerning how the government should function. Try reading the
Constitution and you’ll see what I mean. The founding principles of our
government owe much more to Enlightenment philosophy than anything else; in fact
the vast majority of our foundation as a country is in Enlightenment ideas
though simply because we sprang from Western Civilization in the 18th century
there indeed is some Christian influence. Still the Constitution never mentions
God in any sense but again that’s because it is a legal document about
functions of government. Still the ideas of equality, rights and freedom came
from Enlightenment ideas, not Christianity and this is all backed up by actual
documents we have from our founders so once again real history trumps imaginary
@patriotActually the idea of morality, and every single example of it that
you listed, did come from pagans (though not the Romans because it predates them
and even predates the supposed time of the Ten Commandments by several hundred
years). The Code of Hammurabi dates from about 1776 BC (the 10 from around 1400
BC) was written on stone tablets in Mesopotamia during the Babylonian period
under King Hammurabi. The law not only covered such crimes as murder and theft
but also trade laws and rights of workers. Not only were they written by pagans
but we actually have real stone tablets that people can see and touch whereas
there is no archeological evidence what so ever to back up the story of the
Exodus. Real history trumps imagined history every time. Pagans came up with
Liberals set their standards and try to force them on every body’s
throat, not giving others the right of an opinion. I don't like to watch
baseball but I don't hate those that enjoy. The list of things that I
don't participate goes on: drugs, alcohol, opera, swearing, tattoos, LGBT,
curling, tanning, etc. Do I hate those that participate? NO. Why liberals charge
me with hate because I don’t agree with them? This is hate and
re:GameTheory"The bible has absolutely no authority or
credibility when it comes to morals as a whole"Wow - that's
a head scratcher for sure. The idea of "morality" certainly didn't
come from the pagan Romans but it did come from a certain carpenter who grew to
maturity during Roman rule and was crucified for his claim of being the son of
God. Morality -> thou shall not kill (or murder) , thou shalt not steal,
thou shalt not commit adultery etc....did come from God and NOT man. Sorry guy
but your atheist views are a bit conflicting with history I'm afraid. Also
- I would suggest a re-read of American History (or perhaps a first read). Our
founding fathers were Christian men and our Constitution and founding principles
were ALL influenced by Christianity. Now you can look to nations such as the old
USSR where Christian belief was not tolerated and then perhaps compare the
"freedoms" granted by the Christian nation (America) compared to the
slavery forced by the God-less nation (USSR). Which would you rather live in???
re:Liberal Tedgreat observation! You are correct.
@ Frozen FactalsI never said there wasn't any. I was only
trying to address the specific attack is all. Sorry this was not clear.
Ordinaryfolks,The LDS Church operates universities where students who are
committed to LDS standards can obtain an education in an educational and social
environment conducive to the life those students have chosen for themselves.
Other universities have different objectives and missions. This is a good thing
for the sake of diversity and pluralism in American society. Different people
choose different environments in which pursue their higher education. Religious
schools are going to educate according to their religion. Other schools will
educate in accordance with their driving principles. I suppose you could call it
indoctrination, but that word carries a negative weight that is disingenuous at
best. Would you suggest that higher learning institutions should have no agenda
The correlation between most religious and most un-friendly to LBGT is
understandable from what the bible says… I can't believe that people
justify this. The bible has absolutely no authority or credibility when it comes
to morals as a whole. Many times god performed, or condoned, murder of innocent
lives, does that make it ok? The correct answer is; absolutely not. I can
respect religious Universities in their own right, but i rightfully don't
respect any institution or set of believes that discriminates on behalf of a
bronze age piece of literature that says its ok to do so.
@ ordinray folk"And I thought that the idea behind higher
education was to educate, not indoctrinate."So religious people
are indoctrinated not educated?That is what you are implying.I guess
we should all be grateful people like you are around to save poor uneducated
souls like me.Here's the funny thing..Without religion society
falls apart, why because many of our laws are unenforceable, meaning there are
not enough law enforcement officers to stop people from killing, raping and
oppressing others. Religion teaches killing is bad (It's called The 10
commandments) these "norms" you take for granted are religious based. I
suggest the next time you make comments you really should think things through
to A Guy With A BrainTruth hurts or is it the wicked take the truth
to be hard? Let us not bring up the Golden rule.I could not help but
notice Notre Dame isn't one of the schools listed.
@Liberal Ted, who told you that gay bars were unfriendly to straights? My
husband and I have never had that experience, and we have visited many a gay
tavern.And Arizona Mormon, the only mention of homosexuality in the
New Testament is in the writings of Paul. You remember him? The guy who
thought women should be silent in church and had no problems with slavery. Calling yourself a follower of Jesus does not make you one.
Notice the word bigotry being used...inflammatory.definition of
bigotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion
that differs from one's own.Once again the straw man of being a
victim. This is what and how the LGBT community promote their cause. You
cannot disagree with them without having an extreme label thrown at you.
Ironically, if you use an extreme label about the promoters of the LGBT agenda,
your comment gets censored. Double standard.As for BYU
being the most religious school...That is by design. There are a plethora of
schools available. No one who signs up to go to BYU should expect anything
And I thought that the idea behind higher education was to educate, not
indoctrinate.Hmmm, guess I have it wrong.
'Father of Four' is getting his opinion crushed.What can I
say?....he deserved it; if you say foolish things in public you deserve to have
it corrected in public.(PS - Notice I said his "opinion" is
being shown as faulty, not "him" personally.)As far as the
article goes, I'm proud that BYU leads the way in being listed as the most
religious university. I can't see/open a link to find the most
un-religious schools but I'd bet a large sum of money they are schools
where liberal philosophy permeates the entire campus.
To Father of Four, I wouldn't confuse unfriendly with staying true to
one's values. We can believe what it says in Romans chapter one, and still
love one another. It wouldn't hurt for all of us to increase our level of
kindness, and I suspect that could apply to you as well.
@UtahBruin" there are the select few who choose to make up their own
problems to victimize themselves"While it is wrong to
characterize all BYU students as anti-gay, it's just as wrong to believe
that there is no bigotry against gays at BYU.
Good for BYU and the other schools for turning out an educated, religious, group
of people. It's always nice to see young people who are not afraid to
stand up for their values.
If I own a private business and post a "No Skateboarding Allowed" sign.
Does that make me un-friendly to skateboarders? What if I post "No Shop
Lifting", does that make me un-friendly to customers? What if I post "No
soliciting" at my home, does that make me un-friendly to small business?
What if I post "Cash Only" am I un-friendly to credit cards and
checks?Could I still be friendly in all of those scenarios, still be
a welcoming place and still maintain the rules that I have set?Do
you have to accept behaviors, addictions, attitudes and go along with it to be
considered friendly?Maybe the United States is un-friendly requiring
people to get shots etc before entering the country. Would we be better off with
open borders? Are we better off with the illegals entering now?What
about a gay bar? They're un-friendly to straight people.
@FatherOfFourIf you go along with Bible, it also doesn't allow
you to condone homosexual relationships.You can be nice to
homosexuals. However, religious people are not going to change their standards
so other people feel good. Mormons are not going to allow alcohol in their
church, so people attending a wedding and who aren't Mormons themselves,
feel good about coming. They're not going to compromise their
standards.If a cross dresser doesn't feel welcomed, because
they are not allowed to cross dress....that is something they need to think
about before signing the dotted line.I'm not saying there
isn't room for improvement. But, both sides of the aisle could try and
respect each other a little bit more.When the two gay men were drunk
and decided to make a scene on Temple Square, of course that behavior isn't
welcomed. It wouldn't be welcomed if it were a couple dating, married
couple, man and woman, woman and woman etc.Until you distinguish the
reasons why they didn't feel welcomed, you can't put an assumption on
@Steve in Ohio, you don't have to purchase the report but you do have to
register with a legitimate email, snail mail and phone number. After that you
can view all the ranking categories and there are links from there that you can
surf to understand how the rankings are compiled. Here is what their
web site has to say about the LBGT-Friendly/Unfriendly category: "Both
lists are based on students' answers to the survey question: "Do
students, faculty, and administrators at your college treat all persons equally
regardless of their sexual orientations and gender identity/expression?"Seems to me no surprise that the schools ranked highest in the category
"most religious" are also highest in the category "most
LGBT-unfriendly" as that mimics real world. These schools are also ranked
high in the category "stone-cold-sober" and "Got Milk".
Basically LDS Owned BYU campus mimics the teachings of the church that owns the
Fatheroffour,Criticize LDS teachings all you want, I welcome the
discussion. But, at least try to understand LDS theology first. Prohibitions
against many otherwise random-seeming things were part of the Law of Moses,
which was fulfilled upon the coming of Christ. Christians thereafter were no
longer bound to Jewish dietary laws and other specifics in the Law of Moses.
Teachings on chastity, including condemnation of homosexual behavior, were not
only a part of the law of Moses and were indeed taught in the New Testament
after the Law of Moses was fulfilled. Furthermore, LDS teachings are not based
solely on the Bible but also on the teachings of modern church leaders who
receive revelation from God for the Church.
@fatheroffourYou must have purchased the full report, I can't
find the definitions to which you refer about LGBT unfriendly from the links in
the article. Point taken that likely there are those at the most religious
schools who need to improve how they treat others. However, a ranking based on
a survey doesn't allow one to draw broad conclusions and paint the students
at the school with a broad brush. When a behavior is not allowed at a given
school, it is likely not perceived as a friendly place by those who practice
that behavior or feel a desire to practice that behavior.
@FatherOfFourNobody is being treated badly. I realize that in many
places throughout the world their are some individuals who believe the hatred
way is the way to go. However, this is towards gays, race, religion, etc. But
to single out an entire university and say they are treated badly falls on the
line of uneducated. There just so happens to be a large contingent of LGBT at
BYU who seem to get along very well and enjoy their college experience there.
However, there are the select few who choose to make up their own problems to
victimize themselves, and portray others as the hater. Just as is being done
here. To be argumentative and pull out the shellfish, pork, etc only shows an
antagonizing nature to create a problem, situation, or argument. This is not an
entitlement society, therefore, people with race, LGBT, etc. issues, need to
quit trying to vindicate themselves when their is no issues such the one of gays
and BYU. The article simply states that BYU is a religious university based on
their students, that's all. But have a great day anyway!
@fatheroffourI'm not sure where you are going with this..I said nothing about treating people badly, only that the Bible condemns that
behavior.It is possible to love all, and treat others with respect and
still understand what the Bible clearly teaches.As far a shellfish etc, I
don't know why that's in the Bible, but I not confused on the
weightier matters it teaches.nice try.
@Uncle Rico, The bible condemns many things. Eating shellfish, pork,
working on Sundays, and many others. However, the bible does not teach you to
treat others badly. That's actually the opposite of what it teaches.
@ Fatheroffour"I noticed that the most religious schools were
also the most LGBT-unfriendly."FatherO'4I
suspect thats because the Bible condemns that behavior. What do you think?Really, this isn't rocket science... Unless you intention was
to once again bring in the LGBT issue.
Why doesn't BYU-Idaho ever make these lists, or the 'most-sober'
lists. It's a separate university from BYU with its own, separate faculty
and curriculum. It's not a small school either, with an enrollment of
15,000 it's bigger than a lot of more well-known schools.
@Liberal Ted, The survey itself defines unfriendly and explains their scoring
methodology. It is mostly centered around bullying, ostracism, and aggressive,
What? That school on the hill isn't one of the least religious?
I noticed the least religious schools were also the most Dependent on
I noticed that the most religious schools were also the most LGBT-unfriendly.