@soonerute sounds a lot like everything the utes sacrificed for a bunch of
stickers for your car windows without your team name even on it lol
If I read the comments I would think the article stated that BYU was better than
Utah or that Utah was better than BYU. I think the point of the article was to
reference that on a national scale BYU and Utah are viewed as teams of similar
caliber. I think rationale people would agree. Over the last 20 years all but a
few of those games have been won by 7 points or less. When they were in the same
conference they were both consistently at the top of the conference. The fact
that Utah moved from the MWC to the PAC did not suddenly make them a better team
or give them a history as a football powerhouse. In Utah there is a wide debate
over who is better. Outside of Utah (again and again and again) the analysts and
the computer statistics say - BYU and Utah have similar quality Football
WiscougarfanRiver Falls, WIRE: UteologyInteresting
that you didn't address what I called you out on (that the teams "like
MTSU" were equal or tougher opponents than the bottom of the PAC. Instead
you (like all good trolls) changed the topic to "players in the NFL."----------------I clearly said: "The talent at Colorado
and Virgina is significantly better than teams like Middle Tennessee."You said: "Only Crimson colored glasses would keep one from seeing
that "teams like Middle Tennessee" are equal to or superior to the dregs
of P5 conferences."So I never claimed "that the teams
"like MTSU" were equal or tougher opponents than the bottom of the
PAC", it was you (see above).Then you went on to make an
argument for:* Boise State (0-2 vs P5 teams)* Utah State (0-2
vs P5 teams)* Houston (0-1 vs P5 teams)* Georgia State (which is NOT
a team like MTSU considering they play in a P5 league)So your
argument is BS, USU, and Houston who are a combined 0-5 vs P5 teams would be
equal or superior to teams at the bottom of a P5 leagues like Cal, Virgina,
Colorado, Utah, and TCU?
WiscougarfanRiver Falls, WIRE: UteologyInteresting
that you didn't address what I called you out on (that the teams "like
MTSU" were equal or tougher opponents than the bottom of the PAC. Instead
you (like all good trolls) changed the topic to "players in the NFL."
O.K. I'll bite.---------------I answered it, if you
can't comprehend that #103 MTSU 8-5 with 9 NFL players would be worse than
P5 bottom feeders like #106 Virginia 2-10 (28 players) or #118 Cal 1-11 (38
players) playing a "real schedule" then that's on you.And Utah has 33 NFL players and TCU 18 (BYU 10)... so what?Georiga
Tech is not "like MTSU", they play a real schedule. Houston, Boise State, and Utah State would finish at or near the bottom in a
P5 league, just like Utah and TCU. Only BYU which is on par with MTSU would be
in the middle of the pack in any P5 team according to Deseret News.
DixieCougSt. George, UT said:"The difference between BYU
and Utah is, had the roles been reversed and BYU were in the Pac 12 and not
Utah, the Cougars would not be fighting the second tier conference teams for
last place."Are you kidding! Talk about out of touch with
reality. BYU would face the same problem in the BIG 12 as they would in the PAC
123. They have never ever in the history of their football program, played
ranked, high profile power conference teams on a weekly basis. BYU would be
average at best.Get real.
scottAlpine, UTName me one significant accomplishment that the
Utes had on a national scale prior to joining the WAC.----------LOL!You're asking me to name one accomplishment Utah
made before the 1960s? You're kidding, right?What's most
relevant is the last 10 years. What some care about is the last 20 years. Utah
dominates both. What people don't care about is over 20 years, and
that's where BYU had its brief period of dominance.
DixieCoug,You've got to take off the blue goggles so you can
see clearly. Take it from a Ute fan who expected more, it isn't as easy as
you think. It turns out all the people who were saying, 'Wait until you
play the big boys every week.' were right. It's one thing to beat the
occasional team from a power conference, but it's completely different when
you play them every week. Coach Whitt has said several times, speed at the
skill positions and depth at every position have hurt the Utes. BYU isn't
any faster or deeper than Utah and in fact may be less so, considering the last
4 meetings between the two. TCU has had virtually the same experience the Utes
had and they were regularly beating BYU in the MWC. The evidence just
isn't there to suggest BYU would have an easier time in the transition.
@ DixieCougBased on what? Utah, TCU, and even WVU all have
struggled so far in their new conferences. BYU's record the past couple
years against P5 schools has been terrible. What makes you think they will be
able to put it together when they play quality teams week in and week out.
RE: UteologyInteresting that you didn't address what I called
you out on (that the teams "like MTSU" were equal or tougher opponents
than the bottom of the PAC. Instead you (like all good trolls) changed the
topic to "players in the NFL." O.K. I'll bite. You said: "Looking at NFL rosters one can easily see why Cal/Virginia would
OWN CUSA.Middle Tennessee 9Virgina 28California
38"If you're going to talk about "teams like Middle
Tennessee State" you should list details for at least ONE team BYU played
that isn't Middle Tennessee State. Other players on NFL rosters include:Houston 14Boise State 22Utah State 17Georgia Tech
23Now you're right that none of these teams have as many
players in the NFL as some of the P5 cellar dwellers. I think that goes to show
that teams can indeed have success with inferior talent (good news for both BYU
and Utah if they want to compete on a national scale).
@Rose Bowl call yet?Who cares whether you played BSU in 2013? The
point is, Utah has never beaten an FBS Boise St team; in fact, you've been
dominated by the Broncos for over a decade.-------------If you want to count Texas as runner up the so be it. But they were not the
2nd best team in the Big 12 last year.Are you going to claim that
Utah couldn't beat this Boise State 8-5 team, their worst team since 1998,
at RES even though we were easily able to handle BYU at LES? So you
are trying to tell us that Boise State would be a tougher team to beat at RES
then BYU was is at LES?That might be true, you guys are an annual
@WiscougarfanSpeaking of spin, you forgot to include Sagarin ranking
for Middle Tennessee. Why? #32 Texas 8-5#33 Utah 5-7#35
BYU 8-5#98 Nevada 4-8#103 Middle Tennessee 8-5#106
Virginia 2-10 (only win over a D2 school and BYU)#118 California 1-11
(only win was over D2 school)So MT with 5/6 more wins is barley
better then P5 bottom feeders.Looking at NFL rosters one can easily
see why Cal/Virginia would OWN CUSA.Middle Tennessee 9Virgina
28California 38@FACTchequer: "BYU's chances of
picking up another win if BYU had played another P5, 1 in 3."Depends, who would BYU be playing? Will you be playing them back-to-back?If you played a team like Cal 1-11 and #11 Stanford then yes you might
pick up another win over Cal.But if you played a team like
Washington State 6-7 and #11 Stanford then no. Because BYU has not beat a P12
team with 4 or more wins since 2010. In fact, you easily lost to 5-7 PAC-12
team at home.
The difference between BYU and Utah is, had the roles been reversed and BYU were
in the Pac 12 and not Utah, the Cougars would not be fighting the second tier
conference teams for last place.
RE: Uteology"The talent at Colorado and Virgina is significantly
better than teams like Middle Tennessee."While "the
talent" may be superior, that does not mean the teams are (good thing too,
because Utah will never have the talent to compete in the PAC12). Only Crimson
colored glasses would keep one from seeing that "teams like Middle
Tennessee" are equal to or superior to the dregs of P5 conferences. One objective source to check might be the actual Sagarin ratings for
last season (the season you chose to compare). Sagarin ratings for the bottom
dwellers in the PAC12: Washington State #40, Colorado #74, California #118.
Sagarin ratings for "teams like Middle Tennessee": Houston #50, Boise
State #47, Utah State #41, Georgia Tech #37. Set the spin cycle to
UteologySo Utah (22%) had a worse record versus P5's than BYU
(29%) in 2013.BYU's chances of picking up another win if BYU
had played another P5, 1 in 3.Utah's chances, 1 in 5.
UteologyRegardless of how you spin it, Texas(6-2), Oklahoma(6-2) and
Oklahoma St.(6-2) all tied for 2nd place in the Big 12 in 2013, which has no
tie-breaker because it has no conference championship game. In
anybody's book, except a jealous Ute fan, 2nd place is runner-up.Who cares whether you played BSU in 2013? The point is, Utah has never beaten
an FBS Boise St team; in fact, you've been dominated by the Broncos for
over a decade.
@Wiscougarfan2013 BYU SOS #33, results 8-5 and bowling2012
Utah SOS #36, results 5-7, no bowlWhen BYU had a comparable schedule
(in the PAC/Indy era) they had better overall results. How is that possible?
Spin away.-----------Utah: 3-0 vs mid-majors and 2-7 vs
P5 teamsBYU: 6-0 vs mid-majors and 2-5 vs P5 teamsThe
talent at Colorado and Virgina is significantly better than teams like Middle
shortsPayson, UT@UteologyEast Salt Lake City, UtahHe said Texas tied for 2nd in the Big12. This is a correct statement.Yes, Boise State is not in a P5 conference but Utah has never beaten them.------------No he did not, he said, "We played (and
beat) Texas, runner up in the B12". That is a false statement. He never
said "tied for 2nd". An 8-5 team is not a runner up when
TWO other teams were significantly better: #6 Oklahoma and #17 Oklahoma State.
Texas fans are not claiming to be 2013 Big 10 runner-up, only BYU fans are.Utah never played the 2013 Boise State team, which was your ONLY win
over Boise State. Regardless, they are not a P5 team.
Not quite, Chris B. Mrs. Utah left the marriage for an out of work, circus
performer. Lucky for Mr. BYU, the marriage had not been consummated, saving us
any grief whatsoever!
BlutoSandy, UT"The Gold Standard for Academic Rankings
(which every Major University touts) is USNWR."You're the
best, Bluto. That said...we have clearly shown hear that USNWR is the Gold
Standard only for byu people trying to make themselves feel better. As you said...Game, Set, match...
Naval Vet"And if you venture outside of WACistan you'll
find that few people care about games pre-1998 (aka, the BCS-era) as
well."LOL!That's one of the most ridiculous
statements ever made on these blogs.You don't think Miami, Ohio
State, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Penn State, Georgia, Alabama Pittsburgh,
Florida State, Michigan, USC, and Texas fans care about the national
championships and the games that helped them win those national championship
prior to 1998???Who's fooling who here.BYU has
dominated the rivalry since BYU and Utah joined a conference that fans younger
than your great grandfather actually remember.Name me one
significant accomplishment that the Utes had on a national scale prior to
joining the WAC.* crickets *
Wiscougarfan:"I think Brad Rock stated 'lately'
because few people care about games pre-1950..."And if you
venture outside of WACistan, you'll find that few people care about games
pre-1998 (aka, the BCS-era) as well. Either way, steamroller was correct about
Utah dominating the rivalry. Whether it's Utah's .625 record during
the BCS era, or it's .626 record during the all-time series, Utah dominates
their little brother down south.
RE: steamrollerI think Brad Rock stated "lately" because few
people care about games pre-1950 and BYU dominated the rivalry for most of the
1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. As for BYU's lame schedule... Utah
overall record (that you just cited) was against nearly identical schedules. It
is true that Utah now has three whole seasons with increased SOS, but even with
that BYU is pulling together some decent schedules. And how do you explain
this...2013 BYU SOS #33, results 8-5 and bowling2012 Utah SOS
#36, results 5-7, no bowlWhen BYU had a comparable schedule (in the
PAC/Indy era) they had better overall results. How is that possible? Spin
I agree that right now BYU and Utah are still at about the same level. However,
I expect to see a separation occur, unless BYU puts together some sort of major
conference affiliation. The changes in college football are forcing out the
independents. Notre Dame obviously recognized this and formed an alliance with
the ACC. BYU recognizes this. Otherwise, why would Bronco be openly courting
the Big 12. The independence experiment has run its course and BYU will need to
form some sort of agreement with a major conference to remain competitive at
it's current level.
WA-Alum: "And DuckInSLC, anyone with the interest to count them can see
which side of the divide nearly all the negative comments come from."Haha, well I'm not going to count them but it seems both sides have
their share of rabid fans and reasonable fans. That seems to be the case with
most fans of any school or conference. I've just never seen a rivalry that
seems this personal and heated. Maybe for some that's a good thing, but it
seems pretty negative (at least to me) overall. Maybe things will simmer down
with the hiatus.
Bluto: "The Gold Standard for Academic Rankings (which every Major
University touts) is USNWR."I hate to disappoint you but
you're just wrong in this assessment. I've worked and done research at
the university level. I've talked with administrators. Research status as
measured by the Carnegie Classification of Institutes of Higher Education, and
AAU status are the measuring sticks they use. In fact many care about Forbes
ranking more than USNWR. When conferences evaluate schools for
inclusion these are the measuring criteria they use. BYU is a very good
undergrad school, and I dare say a very good research school. Unfortunately for
them their focus isn't on research so their research endowment and the
amount they do don't put them in tier 1 status.
RE: Bluto"The Gold Standard for Academic Rankings (which every
Major University touts) is USNWR.Game, Set, match..."I'm sorry, I thought your argument was regarding why BYU should or should
not qualify for acceptance into the PAC12 based on academics. If that is the
case then what I said earlier still holds. Being a top tier research school is
very important to the PAC. As far as USNWR being the "gold
standard", that depends on who you talk to. In my experience as a professor
at four different universities (including two in the Big 10) most academics view
USNWR as nothing more than a popularity contest and marketing tool for niche
recruiting. That doesn't mean it can't have some value, but it
certainly isn't as important as popular media would have you believe. With all that being said, I agree with you that academically (meaning
quality and rigor of undergraduate education) BYU is leagues above Utah. Go
Yawn. The same tired story gets the same tired comments from the same tired
commenters. And DuckInSLC, anyone with the interest to count them
can see which side of the divide nearly all the negative comments come from.
@TwoFur and WiscougfanNo, you're both wrong!Your cute
little ARWU poll out of Communist China (Shanghai) has nothing to do with
ACADEMICS. Which is what we are discussing and of which I was responding to.
ACADEMNIC Rankings!ARWU is based on research dollars spent and not
even on patents pending in relation to research dollars spent as BYU trump Utah
in that category as well.In a report from April 2009, J-C. Billaut,
D. Bouyssou and Ph. Vincke analyze how the ARWU works, using their insights as
specialists of Multiple Criteria Decision Making (MCDM). Their main conclusions
are that the criteria used are not relevant; that the aggregation methodology
has a number of major problems; and that insufficient attention has been paid to
fundamental choices of criteria..Others have pointed out, the
ARWU is known for "relying solely on research indicators", and "the
ranking is heavily weighted toward institutions whose faculty or alumni have won
Nobel Prizes": it does not measure "the quality of teaching or the
quality of humanities.".The Gold Standard for Academic
Rankings (which every Major University touts) is USNWR.Game, Set,
@UteologyEast Salt Lake City, UtahHe said Texas tied for 2nd
in the Big12. This is a correct statement.Yes, Boise State is not in a P5
conference but Utah has never beaten them.
@ekute Layton, UT"Yeah, It's like the wife(byu)
clinging to her husband's(Utah) ankle pleading "don't leave
me"."That is just bad taste.
@ Hey Baby,"National Chumps...1984...disputed ( BYU was #1 in
both major polls only dispute it in a utes head) ....gas was $1.01 per gallonHeisman...1990...legit...gas was $1.16"In todays dollars how
about $3.78 (1979) or $10 (1920)?What was the point?
@Wiscougarfan"BYU was 2-5 vs power conference teams last year,
and they didn't even play a conference champion or runner up."Wrong. We played (and beat) Texas, runner up in the B12; Middle Tennessee (who
we also beat), runner up in the C-USA; and Utah State (who we also beat), winner
of MWC. We also played Wisconsin (3rd in B10), Notre Dame (top independent),
Boise State (3rd in MWC).------------Wrong?First, Utah State, Boise State, and Middle Tennessee are not P5 teams. Second, Texas was 7-2 and tied for 2nd but was 8-5 overall finishing 4th
behind 11-1 Baylor, 11-2 Oklahoma, and 10-3 Oklahoma State.Third,
Notre Dame was tied with Navy at 9-4. So the only one you got right
is Wisconsin finishing 3rd in the Big 10.
@BlutoSandy, UTUntil Utah's Mid Major Football program
produces......... -------------Poor Bluto! Why
don't you first try producing a win over Utah this decade. Or is that
asking too much from the legacy program down south?
Well, it is good and fun rivalry. Just don't get in between the Offensive
and Defensive Linemen when they clash. The love bug Volkswagen would get
incinerated when those massive bodies of the Bleeding Blue / Bleeding Red Titans
clashed on the Football field.
@ Strider303"The Utes seem to have a problem drawing fans to
their stadium."Utah season ticket renewal rates have been at 98%
for the past 4 years, and Utah has sold out every game for the past half
decade.Also, Utah and CU won't be dropped because 1) the PAC-12
doesn't have the power do that and 2) the conference makes a ton of money
thanks to the CCG."We (I'm BYU '68) will never recruit
the players in sufficient numbers to establish the team as a consistent top
twenty team."We are reminded ad nauseam on this board that BYU
has been a perennially ranked team since the 80's. I'm not sure what
the point of your post was, but I think you're wrong on all accounts. Utah
and BYU both run good programs and will be just fine.
Strider303Salt Lake City, UT"In my humble opinion, money
is what backs or drives college sports. The Utes seem to have a problem drawing
fans to their stadium."LOL!!!! You are kidding, right? Tell
you what, sport...go to RES on game day and try to buy a ticket.
Here is a fact for our friends in red. Orlando Sentinel ranks MTSU at #68...the
u is ranked at #101.
I love BYU and its mission; however, Kyle and the Utes own Bronco and the
Cougs. Kyle worked under Urban Meyer; Bronco wasn't Gary Crowton. It
doesn't matter the level of hype, how well BYU is playing--it can be at
home or at Rice-Eccles, BYU will choke. The Utes enjoy a mental advantage that
BYU cannot duplicate. If BYU were in the PAC and had Utah's record there
would have been too many people calling for Bronco's head for the team to
function effectively. BYU fans don't comprehend loyalty through building
years and Bronco--while a great man, is not capable of winning the big games
against teams with winning records. The Mendenhall era will be an era of
mediocrity snatched from the jaws of success. He promoted Brandon Domain to his
level of incompetence, he refuses to be a head coach and let go of the
defense--which has performed at less than the sum of its parts. Kyle owns
Bronco--put BYU in the PAC 14 and they lose every year until Ty Detmer is head
coach at BYU.
Reading the comments is fun. I think that one item that is significant in this
rivalry is stadium size and crowd attendance. TV market share when on the Telly
is also important.In my humble opinion, money is what backs or
drives college sports. The Utes seem to have a problem drawing fans to their
stadium. Somewhere along the line, direct fan attendance and support is
important. If Utah is to survive in the PAC 12 fan support is necessary.
Should a down-size take place I am of the opinion Colorado and Utah would be
dropped quickly due to cost benefit factors.The "Y" is an OK
team and shows flashes of brilliance and is the team most likely to be chosen to
play in the homecoming game. We (I'm BYU '68) will never recruit the
players in sufficient numbers to establish the team as a consistent top twenty
team.Utah was an after thought and filled out the PAC 10 to 12 dance
card. I hope they do well but they too will lack the players in sufficient
numbers to do more that knock off a good team now and then.And the
beat goes on....
From an outsider,(An Aggie Fan) most of the comments made on this subject are
really quite humorous. I have lived in Utah for 50+ years and whether Ute and
Cougar fans like it or not, the 2 programs are joined at the hips. Although Utah
has won the last 4 meetings, the two programs really are playing at the same
level. Had Utah and BYU switched schedules last year, I submit to you that Utah
would have ended up with the same record and BYU did, and BYU with the same
record as Utah had. The main difference is that Utah would have beaten a very
poor Virginia team...ouch. For now and for years to come successes of these two
programs will be measured against one another, whether they play or not. Utah
fans will always throw the SOS excuse in BYU's face and BYU fans will
always throw the "No Bowl For U" in Utah's face. Change the
argument guys, or realize your tied together....forever. Your not only
RE: TomahawkRed"You mean the only P5 conference that
doesn't play a title game? Okay, you beat one disputed (and mediocre)
runner-up in the P5."Middle Tennessee (who we also beat), runner
up in the C-USA and Utah State (who we also beat), winner of MWC." I
believe he meant P5 runners up. Not mid majors. "We also played
Wisconsin (3rd in B10), Notre Dame (top independent), Boise State (3rd in
MWC)." Irrelevant. He said conference champ or runner-up. 3rd in the
MWC impresses NO ONE."...Your just-barely-invited
to-the-big-boy-table bias is showing. The Big 12 was a really solid conference
until a couple months ago when the Utah media started speculation about a
possible invite to BYU. The winner of the MWC was pretty impressive four years
ago when Utah was in that conference. And saying that beating Boise State
"impresses NO ONE" carries little weight considering Utah is 0-3 against
them (all recent losses). I never claimed BYU had an outstanding
season last season, but to make it sound like they played a horrible schedule
when their SOS would rank #2 all-time for Utah seems a little silly.
It is interesting how much time / energy / money is wasted on destructive /
prideful comments vs trying to help the other programs do better.Imagine if both fan bases instead used their time / energy to support both fan
bases instead.I will admit I allowed myself to be dragged into it a
few times when I lived out in Idaho but thankfully I live on the east coast and
don't have to think about it that much.
Tomahawk Red:Continued...As for your "begging
question" I answered that in my post. Because it's NOT fanbases and
athletic departments but ADMINISTRATORS who determine membership, BYU was not
invited. In this regard I do agree that it was because these administrators care
about research status. BYU is not an AAU or tier 1 research school so that kept
them out (administrators care about this, not fans and athletic depts). I
completely agree with Two For Flinching's assessment of research status and
inclusion in the conference.
Tomahawk Red: I can certainly see where my response to Chris B could have
been unclear. Thank you for calling me on it so I could see that. The issue I have with your points is that my statements were about my opinion.
I never said "we" while referring to the PAC12 as he did. I would have
liked to see BYU included. I know many others (at least in the Eugene Oregon
area) that wouldn't mind seeing BYU in the conference. That's my
opinion and the opinions of some other Duck fans that I know.As for
my suggestion that people might be deluding themselves if they thought athletic
departments or other PAC12 fans wouldn't want BYU you've used a
Strawman. I never said that all fans and athletic depts "most certainly
would be ok" with BYU. I said that someone who blankety believes that fans
or athletic depts in the PAC12 "wouldn't be ok" with BYU is
probably deluding themselves considering the BYU fanbase in this footprint and
the indisputable fact that many programs have games scheduled with BYU in the
near future. See the difference?
Scores,byu could have more wins than one of the playoff teams. Enjoy
your beach bowl legacy.
Wondering how the readership might react to this/these thoughts:1.
Now that Utah is PAC12 & BYU is indy, seems like the two schools have little
in common other than geography. BYU has its religious affiliation, fine, its
religious rules, fine, while Utah is a state secular school. Fine.2. Utah's PAC12 membership requires a certain mandatory number of PAC12
games per year, leaving two or three open time slots. In addition, I'm
strongly suspicious that PAC12 membership contractually requires some of those
slots to go to P5 schools (like Michigan) so that PAC12 can compare results, a
marketing exercise.3. However, since BYU is independent, it does not
appear that those 9 "guaranteed" games that would normally come with
conference membership are available. As a result, BYU scrambles for meaningful
games during the body of the season. As a result of that scramble their SOS may
never be very favorable since some of the P5 conferences have declined to
acknowledge BYU as a P5 adversary and P5 schools have ~75% of their schedules
locked in with their conference games.--- Wondering how BYU will
become attractive to a conference given this scheduling challenge.Not throwing stones, just sayn'.--- An interesting conundrum.
worfMcallen, TX"Time for the utes to stand on it's
own two feet."Care to explain this comment, worf? Without some
context, it makes no sense. Go ahead...give it a try.
RE: Bluto"BYU would rank 5th or 6th Academically in the Pac.
Utah brings up the rear"Sorry, 2ForFlinching is right on this
one. BYU is not a research university in the top tier (like all the Pac12
schools are). While BYU has higher academic standards and most of their
undergraduate programs are more selective and rigorous than Utah's, the
PAC12 doesn't care about undergraduate quality because that's not what
brings in the big bucks. Graduate research programs pay the bills and Utah is
quite competitive in that arena. If you're trying to make the
"we didn't get into the PAC12 because of religious bias" card the
only valid argument I've ever seen is that the PAC12 was willing to let in
programs like Oklahoma State, which isn't an upper tier research
institution either. But even that is nebulous at best because no official
invite ever went out to those schools.
BlutoSandy, UT"Until Utah's Mid Major Football program
produces......... Only after the Doormat Utes can match BYU's
aforementioned accomplishments, then and only then, can the Red Tailed Chicken
Hawks even begin to be compared to BYU."Really? If your
assertion had any merit whatsoever, why is byu trying so hard to get what Utah
has? "BYU has Tradition, a National Brand and an actual Legacy.
(ASK the suits at ESPN)." byu has a ring through its nose and
ESPN is holding the rope. If that's your idea of a reward for brand and
legacy, mission accomplished. On the other hand, you might look no further than
the Pac-12, Big12, SEC, and ACC for an accurate assessment of byu's
"brand and legacy."BlutoSandy, UT@TwoFur"You said BYU wouldn't qualify academically in the
Pac?Hilarious!...BYU would rank 5th or 6th Academically in the
Pac."Nope. You want to use USNWR rankings? Fine. byu's
paper thin portfolio of graduate and PhD programs is outclassed by USU.
Yep...USU! Now, look at the World Universities Ranking...byu
doesn't even register. Difference criteria, son.Best not even
bring research into the conversation.
Time for the utes to stand on it's own two feet.Adios!
Bluto,Utah - Pac 12BYU - Mid majorThat's all
that needs to be typed.LOL
BlutoSandy, UT-7 College Hall of Famers-16 Consensus
All-Americans-A Heisman Trophy winner-2 Outland Trophy winners-7 Sammy Baugh Trophy winners-A Maxwell Trophy winner-A Legendary
Hall of Fame Coach (who transformed College Football).-A Doak Walker
Trophy winner-4 Davey O'Brian Trophy winners(21 National Award
Winners in all)....-A Super Bowl MVP-2 NFL MVP's-A
Unanimous National Championship-23 Conference Championships----------Yale also dominated college football 100 years ago, and
nobody is asking for their inclusion.Every single one of those
accolades you mentioned happened over three decades ago. BYU hasn't done a
thing in the last 25 years. It's a dinosaur.If the present day
was 1992, you would have an excellent case for inclusion. Too bad for you
it's 2014 and the Cougars haven't accomplished a thing since.Live in the past if you want (which you clearly do). There ain't nothing
to brag about BYU football now.LOL!!!
WiscougarfanRiver Falls, WI"Wrong. We played (and beat)
Texas, runner up in the B12;" You mean the only P5 conference
that doesn't play a title game? Okay, you beat one disputed (and mediocre)
runner-up in the P5."Middle Tennessee (who we also beat), runner
up in the C-USA and Utah State (who we also beat), winner of MWC."I believe he meant P5 runners up. Not mid majors."We also
played Wisconsin (3rd in B10), Notre Dame (top independent), Boise State (3rd in
MWC)."Irrelevant. He said conference champ or runner-up. 3rd in
the MWC impresses NO ONE.
LamboClearfield, UTUtah was preaching against the BCS system,
now you are preaching for exclusion and belittling teams that are in the same
boat you were just barely in.----------I don't
think that's true.I don't think any Utah fan would have
any problem if BSU was invited to the Big 12 tomorrow. They have certainly
earned it.The problem you'll have with Utah fans is when fans
of a team who we believe hasn't earned P5 inclusion regularly wail and moan
about not getting a P5 invite, something they believe they're entitled to.
We basically don't like BYU fans saying, "we deserve the exact same
thing Utah has, even though we didn't even come close to accomplishing what
they did in the BCS era."If BYU had duplicated even ONE of
Utah's BCS seasons I think most Utah fans would agree that BYU deserves to
get in somewhere. But you didn't, so we don't. Blame your AD... your head coach... your players. Not us.
@BlutoSince you like bringing up the US News rankings so much why
don't you look at grad school rankings for anything other than business? In
STEM, Utah outclasses BYU in the rankings and it ain't even close. Utah is
closer to it's PAC 12 colleagues than BYU is to Utah when it comes to
science, math, and engineering.
kyboyWest Valley City, UTHome game average attendance 2013:
BYU=61,225. Utah=45,194. Yeah, pretty equal. BYU currently ranks 28th in the
country. Good enough for 3rd in the Big 12 and 5th in the PAC12.---------LSU, Alabama and Notre Dame all average FAR MORE fans per
game than BYU does... at roughly 100,000 fans per game each.They
blow BYU out of the water, and it ain't even close. That's a REAL
draw. That's a REAL legacy program. That's a REAL national brand.BYU doesn't even come close to qualifying as a real brand in CFB.
DuckInSLCSandy, UTSo any Utah fan like this guy who believes
PAC12 fans and athletic depts wouldn't be ok with BYU being included are
probably deluding themselves.-------You have a couple
problems here.1) You slam Chris B for speaking for the Pac 12 (when
he, as the Pac 12 said BYU may have been invited if they duplicated Utah's
success)2) You then speak, as a Pac 12 fan, and say you would have
liked to see BYU invited (which was not entirely at odds with what Chris B
said)3) You then, contradict yourself, and presume to speak for Pac
12 fans and athletic departments (because you've been in the P12 longer) by
saying they most certainly would be okay with BYU in the conference (despite
that begging the question, if so many in the conference wanted BYU... why did
they not get an invite?)I like you DuckinSLC. But I had to call you
out on the hypocrisy.
StrikerOmaha, NEWrong. The comments of Utah fans on sports
articles referring to BYU or not is keeping BYU extremely relevant.----------Depends on what you mean.The comments are
making BYU relevant to Utah fans? Yes.The comments are making BYU
relevant in national CFB? LOL!If the latter is what you (and many
other Y fans seem to) claim, so you're saying whether or not BYU is
relevant in this game depends on... Utah fans?
UteologyEast Salt Lake City, UtahJust don't tell Bluto
he'll have aneurysm. In his head, BYU is a legacy program, with a
national... correction, world-wide brand.--------LOL!That's right.He would slot BYU in category 1 with
Alabama and LSU.LOL (again)
FatMan86West Jordan, UTBoth schools are similarly connected in that
neither is relevant any more because neither is consistently beating quality
opponents. Outside of the Beehive state, Utah is regarded as a Big 5
doormat, and BYU is an unwanted outsider. This would change if each program
would start winning again....against quality competition.-----------As unfortunate as it is, I have to agree with this.Spot on, I think.
@ ScoresThat's a safe bet. Simple W/L record is not
exclusively what determines the better team in college football, due to the huge
disparity in schedules.
@ BlutoARWU:Utah - 81 (in the WORLD)BYU -
300+Times higher education:Utah 143 (in the world)BYU - Not even in the top 400There is more to a University
than it's undergraduate programs. In this case, graduate and Ph.D
programs, and the resulting research is a huge factor. Judging by the fact the
Utah was invited while BYU wasn't even considered it's obvious that
For some reason I wasted ten minutes of my time reading comments. Its the same
silly garbage over and over again. Half of the coug fans on here go on and on
touting all of their accomplishments from 30 years ago, so they clearly are P5
worthy. And then my ultimate favorite...all the coug fans who go on and on about
how dumb and obsessed Ute fans are for commenting on anything BYU. My goodness,
the hypocrisy. So silly.And...I will be getting an email within a
few hours telling me that the D News has rejected my comment, just like every
other common sense comment I make on here.
Scores "I'll bet BYU wins more games this year than Utah does."Now there's a safe bet. They'd better with the likes of
Middle Tennessee and Savannah State while ESPN this week reported Utah with
the most difficult schedule in the country.BYU had an outstanding
run during the 17 year or so run with the great Lavell Edwards. As the years
pass on that era is looking more and more like an aberration. BYU's record
against top rated teams is not good at all. No undefeated seasons since the
one during the Lavell era thirty years ago, no BCS Bowl invites and accordingly
no BCS Bowl wins. And... Getting hammered by your "rival" year in and
year out for the last dozen years.
I'll bet BYU wins more games this year than Utah does.
@TwoFurYou said BYU wouldn't qualify academically in the
Pac?Hilarious!Wrong again...BYU would rank 5th or
6th Academically in the Pac.Utah brings up the rear.USNWR
rankingsBYU #62Utah #121Basic math got you
Until Utah's Mid Major Football program produces......... -7
College Hall of Famers-16 Consensus All-Americans-A Heisman Trophy
winner-2 Outland Trophy winners-7 Sammy Baugh Trophy winners-A
Maxwell Trophy winner-A Legendary Hall of Fame Coach (who transformed
College Football).-A Doak Walker Trophy winner-4 Davey O'Brian
Trophy winners(21 National Award Winners in all)....-A Super Bowl
MVP-2 NFL MVP's-A Unanimous National Championship-23
Conference Championships-A Big Time College Football Stadium and the fans
to fill it... (min. 60k+ seats). -Dominates the TV ratings in their own
market.-Has a National fan base which reaches beyond SL County.-Plays every game on National TV.....they will Eternally be
looking up at BYU's Generational Legacy.Only after the Doormat
Utes can match BYU's aforementioned accomplishments, then and only then,
can the Red Tailed Chicken Hawks even begin to be compared to BYU.BYU has Tradition, a National Brand and an actual Legacy. (ASK the suits at
ESPN). Posing Wannabees ....Do Not!
We are big boys in a big boy confrence now even though we don't win very
Re: ekute"Yeah, It's like the wife(byu) clinging to her
husband's(Utah) ankle pleading "don't leave me"."I agree with your statement, disagree with the teams you slotted in. Judging
by fan comments on these discussion boards it's Utah that simply can't
let go. "Independent" is a lot like "divorced." Re:
Uncle Rico"BYU was 2-5 vs power conference teams last year, and
they didn't even play a conference champion or runner up."Wrong. We played (and beat) Texas, runner up in the B12; Middle Tennessee
(who we also beat), runner up in the C-USA; and Utah State (who we also beat),
winner of MWC. We also played Wisconsin (3rd in B10), Notre Dame (top
independent), Boise State (3rd in MWC).
Thank goodness not for eternity. Haven't heard or read any mention of
football in heaven. Whew!
Nice article Rock, and spot on.
Chris B Utah did deserve a "promotion" for their performance
over the last few years' but so did Boise State who had an even better
record and went to BCS games and has beaten UTah consistently over years. Utah
was the poster child for equality, inclusivity judgement based on performance
rather than discrimination based on conference. Utah was preaching against the
BCS system, now you are preaching for exclusion and belittling teams that are in
the same boat you were just barely in. The comments demeaning several quality
teams as not in the same league as UofU is a bit out of touch with reality.
Utah has a small separation from BYU lately, but it still has come down to the
wire in all but two games since 2005. Like a workout partner that can currently
bench press a max of 10 pounds more, that 10 pound advantage does not warrant
not warrant hyperbolic and grandiose statements of superiority. Maybe moderate
the superiority talk as the gap truly is not as big as you are perceive it to
be. Also, when one "moves on" he is apatheic, people who post comments
generally are not apathetic.
all of these comments, are exactly what the article described. so lets continue
with what Rock told us to do and talk trash on medicore accompolishments for our
team....because its still better than your team.
@ wazzupMany of the PAC-12 schools had, or currently have, an active
LDS member as the president of their school. Trying to play the victim just
makes you look jealous and bitter. The fact is that BYU doesn't qualify
academically. BYU's candidacy basically ended right there, and religion
has nothing to do with it.
The comments on this message board are making his point for him.
Brad Rock and or the Des News sure came with the headline to garner hits.
Married for eternity? Now that is sweet.
Home game average attendance 2013: BYU=61,225. Utah=45,194. Yeah, pretty equal.
BYU currently ranks 28th in the country. Good enough for 3rd in the Big 12 and
5th in the PAC12.
The consensus on these boards is that only non-member byu "fans" can
speak for the PAC 12.Guess what, that's just ONE of the reasons
why byu doesn't fit in, anywhere.
Re: Eddie no one in the PAC whatever or Nationally will ever take
the u seriously!What about Stanford? When was the last
time BYU beat a power conference team that won the conference?At
least the Utes have the guts to schedule teams. BYU lost to Utah and Virginia
last year, but beat a bunch of patsies and so they made a bowl game. BYU was
2-5 vs power conference teams last year, and they didn't even play a
conference champion or runner up.Utah plays 10 power conference
teams this year, College Gameday said Utah has the toughest schedule in the
country in 2014.BYU plays 3 power conference teams: Cal, Virginia
(both were worst in conferences last year and didn't win a conference
game), and Texas (a team who just suspended its 6 player this offseason).Utes play the big boys, BYU is the team that is scared.
Can we just call it what it is...........the ONLY reason Utah went to the Pac10
instead of BYU is BYU's religious affiliation. Everyone knows it!
Athletic directors of the Pac10 love BYU. It's the presidents and their
faculty. So be it. But to claim otherwise is nonsense.
Chris B: "Who knows, maybe we(the Pac 12) would have even invited
you."Now here's an example of a fan who truly thinks he
speaks for the PAC12. Obviously he only speaks for himself. As a PAC12 fan I
would love having both BYU and Utah in the conference, and I know many others
who feel the same way. Unfortunately college football doesn't listen to
fans or even athletic departments (or does this guy also think PAC12 schools
have accidentally scheduled so many games with BYU). Unfortunately
administrators have the final say on who's included.I was very
supportive of Utah being invited when they were, but don't confuse that
with not wanting BYU to be included also. In fact there are probably more BYU
fans in the PAC12 footprint than Utah fans (actually that's a fact, nothing
probable about it). So any Utah fan like this guy who believes PAC12 fans and
athletic depts wouldn't be ok with BYU being included are probably deluding
They have moved on but can not leave it alone. This is why no one in the PAC
whatever or Nationally will ever take the u seriously! Isn't that
like when u are young, u play with baby toys and then u grow up, (according to
them) then when they get with their friends, they try to act like the big boys,
but keep reverting back to playing with the baby toys again?If u
have really grown up and are a big boy, then stop playing with rattles and dolls
and go on the big boys sites and talk tough.
Yeah, It's like the wife(byu) clinging to her husband's(Utah) ankle
pleading "don't leave me".It's funny how the byu
"fans" celebrate getting creamed by a mediocre Huskies team that had a
depleted staff including an interim head coach.
Just say it man,"The Utah media is doing whatever it can to keep BYU
relevant."Wrong. The comments of Utah fans on sports articles
referring to BYU or not is keeping BYU extremely relevant. If BYU was not
relevant, Utah fans would never comment on their articles. The fact fans like
you consistently comment mean this marriage is still alive and well. Anytime
you refer to BYU in any post, you are still holding hands with BYU in this
"marriage." You mentioned BYU four times in one post. That is holding
on to BYU's "coat tails", as you put it.
@ Hey Baby"I quit reading in the second paragraph...Who is more successful? (BYU, lately).... We've beaten the 4 straight?
How are they more successful? Their goofy fans read this and start to repeat
it..."Read the article again. It says Utah has the advantage on
the rivalry (lately). BYU is more successful (lately) because they are playing
bowl games. The only bowl games Utah plays in is chip and dip bowl at my house
for bowl season.
@Chris BIf utah has divorced BYU and doesn't care about them at
all, how come you post on BYU articles all the time?And how come
there are plenty of ute fans who do the same?Your statement that you
have divorced BYU is hilarious and false.Also, does anyone else
think it's interesting that BYU and Boise State are the 2 non-P5's in
the list and 23 P5's couldn't even make the list?ute fans,
the ACC, the SEC, etc. say that BYU is not a P5 level program.As
I've said many times before, all of that is political. The P5 is trying to
separate themselves from the non-P5, so naturally they won't include a
non-P5 team in their scheduling rules no matter how good they are. I know Notre
Dame is technically not in the P5, but they are essentially a half-ACC member
and have always had a seat at the BCS/Playoff table.It shocks me
that so many ute fans still can't understand this concept. It's all
political, and has nothing to do with BYU's ability.
Chris B , you are quite the jokester ! College national champs , heisman
trophy winner , outland trophy winner , Davey obrien winner etc...... Much less
a national player of the year award ! Be honest now , which program is really
the most storied and relevant ! No wonder you are always so pissed off at the
Brigham young cougars in all your comments ! We really do appreciate you
following our cougars more than most byu fans do !
Black Diamond...National Chumps...1984...disputed....gas was $1.01
per gallonHeisman...1990...legit...gas was $1.1624 years
To paraphrase "White Men Can't Jump":Sometimes when you win,
you really lose;Sometimes when you lose, you really win.Sometimes
when you win or lose, you really tie.Looks to me those most anxiuos
about BYU/UofU athletics are: (in order) 1. local sports writers, 2. Utah fans,
and 3. BYU fans.
RE: Striker"The campus is our World".
Chris BLaughing at 2 Undefeated seasons. But do you have a banner that
says "National Champs" or Heisman Winner or Superbowl MVP? Please do
enjoy the Pac 10 + 2.
The Utah media is doing whatever it can to keep BYU relevant. With BYU fading
fast into college football purgatory, BYU and its media are trying to hang on
tight to Utah's P5 coat tails.Eventually though, when the real
football conferences do break away, BYU's descent into irrelevancy will be
"Utah and BYU are still considered in the same class."This is why
I get a laugh out of Cougar fans calling the Utes a doormat. If BYU is called
to the P5 level, doormat is their fate.The vanity of "we
belong" blinds them to cost of being included. Losing records? Less
television exposure? They'd take it all just to be able to say "They
BYU ignored when the same thing happened to Jamal Williams a few months ago.I would imagine Utah will talk with Wilson, but no punishment.
I quit reading in the second paragraph...Who is more successful?
(BYU, lately).... We've beaten the 4 straight? How are they more
successful? Their goofy fans read this and start to repeat it...Please explain? Loosing to Virginia (last in a basketball conference and
beating a Texas team that had declined so bad that they fired their dear head
"married for eternity" Sometimes divorce is a good option!
This title makes me cringe. I would never want to be married to anything
"Utah". The only red I own is part of a Nebraska shirt that is all
black with some red on the sides. I cannot get myself to see anything red in my
wardrobe, while Ute fans are stuck with blue jeans and can never not have blue
in their wardrobe. If you supposedly think this is an eternal unit, are the two
teams going through a 3 year divorce right now then?Nasty or not,
it's horrible the rivalry is taking a break. Same with Texas - Texas
A&M. The unkindness is part of a rivalry and I don't envy teams like
Nebraska who have no true rival. Like each other or not, both sides like to
play each other and see how the other does. We cringe when the other is doing
well and love it when they fall. In our lifetime, NOTHING was as
awesome as seeing BYU totally crush Utah year after year after year, something
current Ute fans have seen only occasionally since 2000 started. The ups and
downs and table-turning is what makes it so fun.
In the fourth division were, naturally, Utah and BYU, as inseparable as peanut
butter and jelly. Also in the fourth cluster were Boise State, Louisville,
Missouri, Oklahoma State, TCU, Texas Tech, Virginia Tech and West Virginia.-----------Sounds about right. Just don't
tell Bluto he'll have aneurysm. In his head, BYU is a legacy program, with
a national... correction, world-wide brand.
It should be obvious by now that life in the NCAA isn't fair. Those who are
demanding that it be fair are destined to lead lives of quiet desperation. The
four team playoff system will proven to be unfair, but at least it will make
sense for Utah and BYU to play against each other on a regular basis.
Unfortunately, playing Utah State will not make as much sense anymore - and
that's really unfair and unfortunate.
The Utes definitely wear the pants in this relationship.
Hey Rock, Nice try. Reaching, reaching, missed! You wish.
Army has a great football tradition too. I wonder why the big boy
conferences don't want them either?
Both schools are similarly connected in that neither is relevant any more
because neither is consistently beating quality opponents. Outside
of the Beehive state, Utah is regarded as a Big 5 doormat, and BYU is an
unwanted outsider. This would change if each program would start winning
again....against quality competition. Because neither is doing that, both fan
bases have to make noise about silly things like membership (or not) and ESPN
media exposure.Despite not being in the same conference, I do t see
much of a difference as long as the quality wins aren't there.
Rock,No, we divorced them. Our choice not theirs. We got a much
better offer than staying with byU. byu has not done what is necessary the last
decade while conferences have been shifting to warrant an invite. We did. The moment the Pac 12 called - our relationship with byu was forever
terminated. Sure, we're still neighbors geographically. But so are
Tennessee and Middle Tennesse state, one of byu's new rivals. The power conferences are gaining more power and money and frankly we
don't care if that hurts the mid majors. This is a business, and we wont
apologize for moving ahead of byu or usu or Wyoming or the other mid majors.Every school is where they should be with what they have done in terms
of academics and football success. If byu had 2 undefeated seasons,
2 BCS bowl wins including a huge beatdown over Alambama in the past decade, byu
would be in a power conference.Who knows, maybe we(the Pac 12) would
have even invited you. But they didn't. So
they're not.And the door has closed.Goodbye byu.
You and usu will always have each others as mid majors friends