Michigander.“....the Aboriginal/Indigenous peoples of the
earth will be restored to the rightful ownership and governorship of all their
lands of inheritance thru the powerful and divine leadership of The Choice Seer,
the future full-blooded American Indian Moses."______________________________Considering all the competing claims
for any lands, where do we start? And what would it accomplish besides merely
setting the stage for another war? Both Jew and Palestinian have legitimate
historical claims to the land of Palestine but they each have radically
different interpretations of history.The entire history of human
civilization is a history of migrations and displacements. Do you honestly
believe that some apocalyptic Mormon prophecy of a future “Choice
Seer…full-blooded American Indian Moses” will do anything but
perpetuate this loathsome cycle? Can't we humans ever learn anything?
RE:Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt. One of the most important discoveries
that relate to the time of the Exodus is the Merneptah stele which dates to
about 1210 BC ,at the time of the judges. In Joshua 15:9 and 18:15, "well
of waters of Nephtoah"=Hebrew name of Merneptah.(Ex 1:11 NIV)
“ they put ‘slave masters’ over them to oppress them with
forced labor, and they built Pithom and Ramses as store cities for Pharaoh.@ slave masters’,The same official Egyptian designation appears on a
wall painting in the 15th-century B.C.E. tomb of Rekhmire in Thebes. The Samaritan Torah( their version of Exodus) . ”Jesus told the story of
the Good Samaritan because Samaritans were despised.RE: Craig
Clark,Why Mormons embrace and encourage comparisons. Brigham Young the
“American Moses,”? Can you make a Christian of a Jew? I tell
you Nay, If a Jew comes into this church,and the blood honestly professes to be
a Saint, a follower of Christ, and if the blood of Judah is in his veins, he
will apostatize.(JoD V. 2 p. 142).
@ KTC JohnAs Tolkien said in Lord of the Rings "History became
legend. Legend became myth."
If the earth is allowed to stand long enough, someday those who oppose the truth
will say that the mass migration to the western hemisphere of those seeking
religious freedom, the American Revolution, the establishment of the United
States Constitution, the latter-day restoration events, and the Mormon pioneer
trek did not actually occur. On the other hand, I doubt that the earth is going
to be allowed to stand for that long---at least the earth as we now know it.
@ The Wraith......well said.
@Steve C. Warren All those scriptures you quoted are just the short version of
what really happened. This universe was not created out of nothing. And that
is what the Big Bang Theory is all about.. something outta nothing. :-)
There simply isn't evidence to prove that it did or didn't happen the
way that it is stated to happen. Just because some people have
decided thousands of years later that they no longer believe that it happened
the way it has been stated to happen doesn't automatically mean it
didn't happen that way.From the comments I have been reading It
sounds like we are growing into a world full of Thomas's.I like
Nephi "..do not know the meaning of all things." and from the article it
isn't conclusive that others know one way or the other if it happened or
not. So why should I change my assumptions?We have on the other
hand people will believe the "big-bang" or whatever theory to explain
how stuff was created which happened 13.8 Billion years ago.It is
interesting how we are comparing / examining things that "supposedly"
happened thousands of years vs. things that "supposedly" happened 13.8
Billion years ago.I am fine with both BTW.
@ Coach Biff"Were you expecting a day to day
documentary?"I wasn't expecting anything. I don't
think of the Bible as anything but literature. But apparently historians and
archeologists were expecting to find SOME evidence to substantiate the story.
When they found none they said so - including an Israeli archeology team. The
blurb I offered was from an online encyclopedia and reflects the current
consensus: The Exodus as told in the Bible didn't happen. It was a tale
made up to create a unifying national identity.This information is
readily available to anyone, including Dr. Peterson. Given that he's a
religious scholar, and given that this information has been known for some time,
I would expect him to know about it and cease to present it as fact.
"that messianic “gathering” of Israel' also includes
"the restoration of all things."Simply put they mean that
the Aboriginal/Indigenous peoples of the earth will be restored to the rightful
ownership and governorship of all their lands of inheritance thru the powerful
and divine leadership of The Choice Seer, the future full-blooded American
Wow, Dennis, Karen, it amazes me how you can use such a limited amount of data
to contradict the Hebrew account of the Exodus to come up with "truth".
The Bible is not a science journal. We know it has flaws. Were you expecting a
day to day documentary?
Sometimes the first reaction to learning something new has a bit of vitriol
associated the unexpected knowledge that goes with a new "truth".
Wow. Very strange comments on this article.
It is an appropriate comparison, given that the Latter-Day Saints are the
modern-day children of Israel, representing the original Church established by
the Lord in ancient times, restored with all of the covenants and blessings that
were promised to Abraham and his descendants in ancient times. It is no
coincidence that things have worked out this way, with such remarkable symmetry
between East and West. The Lord’s course is one eternal round, and he does
not change the methods that he uses to raise up his people and bring them to the
fulfillment of their destiny.
Not only are Dennis, Karen and others correct in there comments it should also
be added to them that there is no archaeological evidence either. The legend
says that the Hebrew slaves took part in the building of the pyramids. The sites
of the pyramids are some of the most heavily researched places on earth; not a
single trace of Hebrews has been found. The legend says that about 600,000
families left Egypt and traveled across the Sinai (that would be over 2 million
people) and not even so much of a piece of pottery with Hebrew writing on it has
been found. No mention in Egyptian writings of a group that size leaving (it
would have been almost a quarter of their population at the time). Nothing, zip,
nada. The story is a myth and has been accepted as myth since the 70's.
RE: Dennis,see these Egyptian writings: The Ipuwer Papyrus; Aper-el's
Tomb; The Shiphra Papyrus.Jesus in Exodus,ashort list: God comes
down(Exodus 3:7-8)=The Incarnation (John 1:1-12). The name of God “I
am"(Ex. 3:14)=Jesus said,“I am”=God(John 8:58). The Tabernacle
(Ex 36-39)= Jesus the Tabernacle (John 1:14; Heb 8:5). Exodus
33:20,“ [God] said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see
me, and live.” Heb 11:27, “By faith he [Moses] forsook
Egypt,… for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.”RE: Moontan, 3 persons one God. JS taught the triu-nity. “… true
doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is *one
God, without end..”(2 Nephi 31:21).3Nephi 31:22,note b.(1John
5:6-9 KJV) v.7 one= (*heis, the #1). But “… we are one(en).( John
17-22). One in unity (Preposition) different Greek words. But now the Jesus of
Mormonism is an exalted man. “A different Jesus…”, See(2 Cor
"It wasn’t lost on 19th-century Latter-day Saints that the pioneer
trek led by Brigham Young (the “American Moses,” some have named
him) bore sometimes striking similarities to the exodus of the ancient
Israelites from Egypt and to their arrival in the Promised Land."______________________________Why Mormons embrace and encourage
comparisons of Brigham Young to Moses doesn’t need much explanation. But
I’ve also read comparisons of Brigham Young to Oliver Cromwell for his
radical thinking and experimentation with social ideas such as the United Order
which proved to be a colossal flop. Nor was he at his best in doing damage
control when news of the infamous Mountain Meadows massacre reached Salt Lake
City.But let's give credit where it is due. Brigham Young was
unquestionably an extraordinary organizer who developed Mormonism’s
institutions in a way that Joseph Smith might have been envious of. Despite his
missteps and human flaws, he was the man of the hour when a leaderless Church
most needed a steady hand.
History is wrote by the servers. How does the American Indian write about
history. What's their story, I would think it differs what I was taught.
First of all, note southmtnmans comment. Some research is easy to find assuming
you don't bury your head in the sand.Secondly, I don't hate
Christianity. My entire family, many wonderful friends and associates are
"Christian" in some way or another, mostly LDS. What I have a
problem with is believing in things that did not happen. If religion and
society are to succeed in the long run replace "truth" with
"facts" and live better lives. I have no problem with the culture of
Mormonism, I lived it for 50 years, I have a problem with disingenuous doctrine
that varies from week to week, month to month, decade to decade and century to
It is sad that the faith of so many people is based on arguments about the
details of what people, who may or may not be our ancestors, who may or may not
have recorded facts or myths, did or did not do. Are we that fragile?
Insecure? Xenophobic? Remember, please, that when we claim "truths,"
we are simply only saying that OUR limited knowledge is somehow more holy,
factual, accurate, or sacred than whatever facts or opinions may get in our way.
That's a lot of insecurity.
I like the scriptural accounts of Egypt: that Egypt was a land discovered by
the woman, Egyptus, when it was under water. She was the wife of
Ham, the son of Noah. There has been, scripturally, a long history of
association between the Egyptians and the Hebrews, much of it very positive.
Some of the pharoahs were apparently friendly to the Hebrews, and Abraham
taught one of them the principles of an astronomy in some fundamental ways
greatly advanced compared to even our own. A later pharoah was afraid of the
growth of the descendants of Israel, who then lived in Egypt, and enslaved them,
and sought to reduce their numbers by an enforced birth control.Though the Israelites escaped from that controlling dynasty, Egypt became
again a place of learning and a place of refuge for Jesus Christ Himself who,
taken by Mary and Joseph, fled into Egypt. Egypt is now the only friend that
Israel has in the Middle East, and Israel will one day be at one with both Egypt
I wonder if Dennis is aware of the Ipuwer papyrus, which recounts that
“Plague is throughout the land, blood is everywhere — the river is
blood.... And the hail smote every herd of the field ... The land is without
light and there is a thick darkness throughout the land... The Lord smote all
the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharoah that sat on
his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the prison.” I
don't know how you could ask for a more dramatic confirmation of the Book
of Exodus than that.
Rabbi David Wolpe is one of the most prominent rabbis in America. He and a
growing number of Jewish religious leaders and Jewish scholars question the
historicity of the Exodus. Ironically, Latter-day Saints remain steadfast in
their belief in Israel as the covenant people of God at a time when many Jews no
longer believe they are God’s chosen people. Progressive secular Jews
regard it as an antiquated dogma that Jews need to let go of.Was the
Exodus from Egypt a historical event? The earliest likely sound evidence of the
Israelites was when a loose federation of nomadic Hebrew tribes began moving
across the Jordan river into Canaan around 1200 BCE under the leadership of a
military chieftain the Bible identifies as Joshua. Their purported earlier
history as chronicled in Genesis is not entirely reliable and may incorporate
legends from other Semitic peoples whom the Israelites encountered and absorbed
into their tribes over the centuries.
MrNirom1 wrote: "Ah yeesssss... and then there was this Big Bang.. and the
universe just popped into existence! . . . I will take the word of God's
Prophets over mankind's science."So, what makes you think
the scriptures (and, therefore, the prophets) are opposed to a Big Bang?"I am the same which spake, and the world was made" (D&C
38:3); "for he commanded, and they were created" (Psalms 148:5); "By
the word of the Lord were the heavens made . . . For he spake, and it was
done" (Psalms 33:6, 9); "earth was created by the power of his word.
Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was" (Jacob 4:9).Those scriptures all sound like instantaneous creation to me. They
certainly don't sound like six or seven creative periods.
Dennis, for all of his "vast" knowledge of Egyptian historical writings,
has apparently never had the chance to read the great historian Josephus'
_Contra Apionem_ ("Against Apion") where, quoting from celebrated
Egyptian historian Manetho's _Aegyptiaca_ (the FIRST known national history
of Egypt, from ca.300-250 B.C. -- prolific writers of history... yeah), Josephus
lays out considerable evidence for the actual Israelite Exodus (the 480,000
shepherd kings/foreign invaders who, generations after settling in the upper
delta region of Egypt, Manetho recorded, left Egypt to return to their homelands
away to the east).Never, ever mentioned indeed...Or,
perhaps, Dennis is simply a modern-day Apion who might benefit from reading the
actual histories (Josephus, Herodotus, Eusebius, etc.) of Antiquity.
Dennis is correct.In 2009, Israeli professor of history at Tel Aviv
University, Shlomo Sand, published "The Invention of the Jewish People,"
in which he argues that Jews have no common "ethnic" lineage, no common
language, and the majority of Jews, including many Zionists, have no desire of
going "back" to a so-called "Holy Land".The idea of
"a Jewish People" is an invented political construct, just as is the
concept of the "Land of Israel", as Sand argues in "The Invention of
the Land of Israel: From Holy Land to Homeland" (2012).Biblical
"Israel" does not include Jerusalem, Hebron, or Bethlehem, and is only
northern Israel (Samaria). To this day there is uncertainty as to what exactly
constitutes the "Land of Israel." The internationally recognized state
of Israel (the Green Line of 1967, itself the result of enlargement following
the 1948 war). For some, the "Land of Israel" includes the whole of the
West Bank or extends to Jordan. For still others, God promised Abraham and his
descendants "this land, from the river of Egypt unto the Euphrates",
which would include also bits of Turkey, Syria and Iraq.
Well, sorry, Israel and related Hebrew peoples. Your very existence in the land
of Israel, and your history of how you got there no longer exists, because the
"Dennis" of Harwich, MA has declared it so. "Never happened."
Therefore you must stop practicing your traditions and apologize to the
Egyptians.Forget the fact that someone ignores the fact that Egypt
would have absolutely no incentive for keeping records of a race of peoples they
enslaved that basically handed them their hat and waltzed out of captivity
underneath the noses of the one of the more powerful militaries of the time.
Forget the fact that although the Egyptians developed a
"prolific" writing system, we simply do not have even a miniscule amount
of all the writings they ever created.Forget the fact that much like
the Aztecs, who everyone acknowledges had tons of writings that were destroyed,
the majority of Egyptian writings simply did not pass the test of time."Dennis" has declared it so, simply due to his hatred of Christianity.
Oh well. I am sure you will have fun creating a new history and traditions.
It is good to remember "this heroic episode of Mormon history" and to
praise the "limitless self-sacrifice" and "unswerving devotion"
of the Mormon pioneers.Nevertheless, in all the praising and
glorifying, it would behoove ancestors of Mormon pioneers not to forget those
who preceded their ancestors. Most of the trail that Mormon pioneers used was
well-established, thanks to wagon trains that began leaving four years earlier.
Even the route into the valley through Emigration Canyon had been made easier
thanks to the Donner Party, whose efforts in clearing a trail contributed to the
delay that resulted in them being stuck in the Sierra Nevada. And, frankly, the
Mormon pioneer journey was considerable shorter than that of most other westward
travelers. Alas, I hardly ever hear a peep of gratitude for the
"gentiles" when my fellow Mormons talk about their pioneer ancestors.I must confess I'm a bit sensitive on this subject because my
great-grandparents not only were in the first wagon train to cross the Plains in
1843 but for a difficult part of that trek their wagon was the first one in the
From rationalwiki.org"Despite being regarded in Judaism as the
primary factual historical narrative of the origin of the religion, culture and
ethnicity, Exodus is now accepted by scholars as having been compiled in the
8th–7th centuries BCE from stories dating possibly as far back as the 13th
century BCE, with further polishing in the 6th–5th centuries BCE, as a
theological and political manifesto to unite the Israelites in the
then‐current battle for territory against Egypt." [Source: Israel
Finklestein and Neil Asher Silberman, The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's
New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts, Free Press,
2001. ISBN 978-0-684-86912-4.]"Archaeologists from the 19th
century onward were actually surprised not to find any evidence whatsoever for
the events of Exodus. By the 1970s, archaeologists had largely given up
regarding the Bible as any use at all as a field guide."
Ah yeesssss... and then there was this Big Bang.. and the universe just popped
into existence! Pharaohs were considered Gods. And who writes
history? Yes.. If I was Pharaoh of Egypt.. I would want the story of how one
man came in and took all my Hebrew slaves, defeated the army I sent out to
recapture them to ring out throughout the land.. and I would then build
monuments to it! Oh.. is there a history some place written by
prolific writers that describes how the pyramids were built? Science still
hasn't figured that one out either. First we heard 300,000 workers.. then
over time they now say.. 20,000. Why was it not just written in the history
books of Egypt? So.. Which do we believe? What they said first? or Last? They
still can't agree.. lots of different theories. But then theories in
science are proof positive.. right? I will take the word of
God's Prophets over mankind's science. And just like science.. over
time.. the truth comes out. The day is coming soon that the world will know
that Jesus Christ and his religion is not just a story.. but a fact.
Humanity thrives on stories. In locales and cultures worldwide, the telling of
various people’s stories breathes love of the soil from which we come. I
don’t have any high regard for the strained parallels between the
Israelite Exodus (which may not have happened) and the Mormon migration West
(which is well documented). The better placement of the Mormon story is as a
segment of the larger saga of America moving West.
@ Dennis:I think you mean of all the Egyptian writing we currently
have in our possession that we are able to read. We surely do not have all of
the writings of all the Egyptians. A blanket statement based upon partial
information is sort of weak, at best.The record is yours to believe
or not as you choose. I choose to accept it and look forward to more
information in the future. Who knows, maybe tomorrow someone will find another
cave of sealed pottery jars in Qumran full of records, maybe one with
Moses' passport stamped at the exit at the Red Sea - you never know.
@Dennis ... re "...the imprisonment and holding Hebrews was never, ever
mentioned. Ever." How is it possible to know that? We have ...
what, maybe 2% of what was written back then? 5%? Let's do a ridiculous
exaggeration and say we have 50% of everything ever written by ancient
Egyptians. A full half of all of it. What's in the other half?
If indeed there was a real Exodus; then comparing the Mormon trek as an equal,
is a. Major stretch of the imagination.
We are in bondage like the Israelites. Our minds do not see this truth of our
situation.Because Satan has power over the flesh for survival
reasons....That truth comes from God to mankind at this time..Satan is
revealed to planet earth...God created Satan Program to operate every life form.
Your mind is subject to Instinct Mechanisms rules and laws God gave to
direct survival.This is great news to the Saints and the
world...........Satan gives opposition to this true being shared...........This
knowledge will give us power over some of Satan's authority to rule over
us....Status quo is part of its domain.......The Science proof of my
calling to share this gift of God is at hand.IBM Watson, our most
brilliant Artificial Intelligence Program will be sharing its Answer; in August
2014. Watson'a answer can't be stopped...God delivers us
from Bondage.. Only God could reveal Satan's true existence to us. This
knowledge will take some power away from our robot brain operators of
survival....You mind cannot get away from the power of this question
answered."Is Instinct Mechanism An Artificial Intelligence
Program?...For our freedom, Ask Pres. Monson
Isn't it interesting that in all the Egyptian writings, and they were
prolific writers of history, the imprisonment and holding Hebrews was never,
ever mentioned. Ever. I submit it never happened just like everything else in
the Old Testament that was written not as a history but as a learning tool.
When is Christianity going to stop believing in stories? Just wondering.