Stormwalker...Do you actually have any data to back up your claims
about Brigham Young?Didn't think so....Brigham was
very good at dividing what was the Government and what was the Church money.
They never intermingled as you alleged. In fact the LDS church was in Debt
until about the turn of the Century and under Lorenzo Snow leadership, the
church finally was able to get out from under it.Brigham sent all
types of people, the claim that the ones sent was those who he had disputes with
is out and out false. He sent those he needed that had the skills to succeed to
the areas around the state. My ancestor was one of the them...He
sent members from the South who came to Utah to grow cotton in Southern Utah
(commonly called "Dixie") He sent Iron workers and miners from England
to Iron county to mine the coal.If you really look at what he did,
it was quite amazing even from the viewpoint of Non LDS historians.
@Redshirt1701:Brigham Young was the head of the religious structure,
the head of government, and controlled much of the business in the territory. He
had no problem standing up on Sunday morning in the tabernacle and ordering
people to go settle far parts of the territory – frequently people with
whom he had dispute. He commingled funds and made sure he was enriched by
business deals across the territory. Utah territory was not a
libertarian paradise. It was a theocratic dictatorship. Mormon
pioneers did some great and daring things. As for living then and there? When I
look at theocracies around the world today, doesn't seem very appealing.
To "Open Minded Mormon" you don't have your facts right.Early LDS pioneers were not Progressives, they were libertarians and wanted
small government, not more.They didn't practice universal
healthcare, nor were they socialists/communists (That was denounced by both
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young). Immigration was not an issue during Pioneer
times, and is not a partisan issue. Nearly everybody from conservatives to
liberals are pro-immigration as long as you do so legally.Joseph
Smith told slaves to obey their masters, and masters to be kind to their slaves.
Utah has records showing the sale and purchase of some slaves within the Utah
territory. Brigham Young also taught that God was ok with slavery.They were not out to save the planet, the dams, logging, mining, quarries, the
draining of natural swamps, and all of the other projects they worked on show
they were not "green".Illinois and Missouri were not full of
conservatives. Those states were headed by Liberals. They were intolerant of
people who did not conform and used the full power of government to achieve
their agenda.As for your assessment of conservative LDS members, you
are 100% wrong.
Funny, the pioneers fled the US because they somehow thought they weren't
getting any freedom. Now they seek to take away the freedom of others under the
guise of "religious" freedom.
Regardless of the details of why Mormons were kicked out of the US, it was not
Americas finest moment and displayed a great lack of tolerance.From
a strictly secular point of view though: The colonization of the west was a
major event. Mormon pioneers were post Alamo, pre gold rush and the US was
already arguing with Mexico regarding the western territories. Its importance
goes well beyond a particular sect.When posters say things such as
"I will avoid the parade and all festivities associated with it" based
upon their contempt of the organization that settled the intermountain west,
while ignoring its importance. I cannot help but wonder how they would be judged
if they held the same attitude about Martin Luther King Day.It is
fascinating how knee-jerk anti Mormon loathing (such as what was deftly
manipulated by a former mayor) retains social acceptance. Embarrassing
indeed. Shouldn't you be embarrassed
to have a hero that won election by aggravating and exploiting religious
intolerance?.Mayor Anderson is the personification of everything he
claims to despise.
It was about religious freedom from the founders because the Mormons left the
United States of America and the constitution to moved to Mexican territory.
@2 bitsThey left the United States to find Religious Freedom (they were
being murdered, raped, and had an official state sponsored "extermination
order" out for them in the United States. Pioneer day is VERY MUCH about
Religious Freedom.10:08 a.m. July 15, 2014•@L WhiteSpringville, UTThings do not change much, do they?11:14 a.m.
July 15, 2014========= The “Mormons” in 1847
- ProgressivesWho practiced:Unorthodox
marriagesProvided Universal HealthcarePro-ImmigrationCommunist/SocialistsWoman’s Right to VoteFree the SlavesandSave the Planet – Greenies.They were run out by
UltraConservatives in Missouri and Illinois:Who were;IntolerantPro-gunPro-State and Anti-FederalAnti-ImmigrantWe left the United States for Mexico, Because their
“Constitutional Rights” [Religion, Speech, Assemble, Press] --
were be trampled on.Sadder still – I see many
“conservative” Latter-Days trying to do this same sort of thing 170
years later to others also seek –Unorthodox marriagesProvide Universal HealthcarePro-ImmigrationSocialistsWoman’s RightsFree the WORKING-SlavesAndSave the
Planet – Greenies.But, I agree with L White about one
thing -- Things do not change much, do they?
I think many here should read the documents available online regarding polygamy
in the 19th century.Many civic leaders were furious with the Mormons
living back east for practicing polygamy. They declared that "marriage was a
state right. And that the majority of the population didn't support
it." They also disagreed that Mormons had a right to practice it. "Doing
so would be making them a special class of citizen. Mormons have the same right
as anyone else, traditionally marry 1 man or woman. You cannot have 5
wives."Religious leaders showed equal contempt, calling polygamy
a "blasphemous practice." Others said that it would put us on a slippery
slope towards marrying "those of other races."I think we can
all take a step back, let history be, and enjoy a BBQ with our neighbors.
Whether they be religious or non-religious. It's a great day for our state!
Re: "They had no problems because they rejected polygamy."Seems a little hypocritical to call early Mormon polygamy an atrocity, and
suggest it was proper to outlaw it, while, at the same time, claiming some
universal, inalienable right to perversion, just a few post above.Hmmmmm.
Thank you for your comments "Henderson" and how true they are! I
appreciate the pioneers and their sacrifices, but people need to know the
reasons why they were persecuted. And I'm also glad that they changed in
order for us to become a state!
I'm with 2 bits -- our nation and much of the world has matured over the
years. Slavery, treating women as chattel, child labor, etc. is considered
unacceptable now in the developed party of the world. I'd much rather live
now than in any time in the past. Things aren't perfect, but now is
better. I don't have a problem with celebrating Pioneer Day, but yeah,
it's clearly a date that honors Mormon pioneers. However, as someone else
posted, it's no different from other states celebrating dates important to
their history or to a large percentage of their citizenry.
Speaking of freedom of religion or the lack thereof, our LDS stake was
"assigned" by Church HQ to prepare a float for the Days of '47
parade this year. Can't say no, just do it! I don't think the Greek
Orthodox church, or the local Jewish congregation, or the Catholic Church, or
the local mosque were "assigned" to participate in the parade.Not a religious holiday? Ha! Not specific to the LDS faith? Ha!
To "2 bits" the US has not matured. They have just found better ways to
cover up what they are doing.Instead of slavery, we now allow poor
people to sneak in here so that they can work for very small wages. We know
that by letting them sneak in here they are denied the rights and protections of
citizenship. So, when Consuela come here at the age of 5 and begins to clean
houses at age 16, we know that she will still be cleaning houses at age 65
because she has no legal rights. Without those rights, she is stuck in her
position and cannot get out of poverty.In times of slavery the white
slave owners would tell about how their slaves were just too dumb to do more
than work the plantation and how the owners were giving their slaves a better
life. Now, politicians tell the poor minorities that they can't make it
without the help from the politicians, and how they were being given a better
life. Now we wonder why we have problems with intergenerational poverty now
that they are dependent on the government for life, just like slaves to their
@ 2 bitesHave you visited uen? Have you actually read up on the
core? Have you ever looked inside a textbook used in secondary education? Before
you sling personal insults around, please do your research. I won't do it
for you. If you have problems with the core, contact your local representative.
Secondly, if you desire to have your children taught personal
religious beliefs and/or philosophies, then I suggest you send your child to a
private school which teaches those beliefs. It's time to be accountable and
stop blaming others. If you want your child to be tsught creationism instead of
evolution and Mormons were driven out for their belief in god, then please send
your child to a school that teaches that. The rest of us must teach what is in
the core and approved textbooks. I have yet to read an approved or credible
textbook which teaches history the way you approve.It's really
that simple. I took issue with "the United States had matured" for utah
being admitted into the union. I've never read a single historian attribute
Utah's admittance into the union as a maturation of the USA.
re: airnaut"Can Hobby Lobby make up a holiday, and celebrate
under freedom of Religion?"Actually, its Christmas & Scotus
Ranch, Maverick and whoever else...the three main reasons (and yes,
I do research from all sides of the issues) the LDS church was forced out of
Missouri1. The attitude of the saints concerning "Zion".2.
The well developed farm land they created and the locals conveted.3.
Voting Block....Polygamy although was started during this time had no
affect on the expulsion.Reasons why they were forced out of
Illinois.1. Well developed farms and land.2. Voting block of the
Mormons3. Attitude of the Saints4. View of the Godhead.5.
Thomas Sharps out and out lies about the Mormons (which several historian who
are not LDS have found the articles by Mr. Sharp to false).The
burning of the Law Printing press was the trigger of the murder of Joseph and
Hyrum. It was not a cause of the expulsion. It was an excuse. If you look at the
history of the time, the trashing of newspapers was common.
@Henderson,RE: "I just took issue with your insistence that
America had matured"...We have matured! A country doesn't
DE-Mature over 150 years!Back then it was legal to own slaves...
we've learned and matured. Is it legal today? Nope!Back then
Mormons were ordered exterminated and the military dispatched to execute that
order.... today they run for President. I think America has matured (and
Mormons).As justification for your pretense that we have NOT
matured... you site political bickering in Washington. Back then we had WAY
more bickering in Washington. Read our history, and all the bickering that
happened in Washington back then! Aaron Burr (our VP) was shot dead in a dual
with Alexander Hamilton (Sec of Treasury). I think that's WORSE than the
bickering we have over political differences today.I think I've
made my case that we HAVE matured and are WAY more tolerant today (not only of
Mormons... but more tolerant on about everything).So... what made
you say, "I just took issue with your insistence that America had
matured". How have we NOT matured?---- last comment ----
I am trying to figure out how Pioneer Day is a celebration of Religious Freedom?
I can see it as a celebration of freedom from oppression, but not of Religious
Freedom. The early Pioneers were escaping the US because their religious
freedoms were being ignored by intolerance.Pioneer Day is a
celebration of the people who escaped persecution to establish a community where
they could be free once again. While we celebrate the founding of Utah, we
should also remember the sacrifices they made coming here, and the persecution
Ranch Hand I do not recall most of our cities being here prior to the Pioneers
arrival into the Salt Lake Valley.
@Maverick,My comments are based on history, not Sunday School
lessons. History:Google "Missouri Executive Order 44"
or "Extermination Order"... (Wikipedia)... Go to "Text of the
Order" section... you will see ZERO mention of polygamy in the order. Read
the "Background" section (you will see ZERO mention of polygamy there as
well).==============Pioneers were driven out in 1847.
Utah became a State in 1896. Polygamy was ONE issue in the Statehood debate,
but not the main reason Mormons were driven out of Missouri.================Google "Utah Becomes a State - Utah Division
of State History"...Your narrow and one-sided view of this
history disqualifies you to teach History in our public school system (IMO). I
encourage our State leaders to do a full review of the curriculum IF your narrow
one-sided view is what teachers are actually REQUIRED to teach children in
Utah.Can other teachers back up what Henderson claims? That they
are required to teach our children that, "Mormons were driven out of the
United States for their rejection of traditional marriage and practice what was
deemed as perverse".......??I want to see if ALL teachers are
really teaching that...
@ L White, 2 bits, etcSince when has getting your history about a
particular people or culture from someone within that people or culture been
accurate?If you wanted a history of the Obama administration, would
you believe in the history written by someone employed by Obama? Why not?Same thing with Reagan, FDR, and Lincoln...If you wanted to get
Native American history, would you go to white settlers who removed and murdered
them?If you wanted to get the history of fascism in Europe, would you go
to a Hitler or Mussolini supporter?If you wanted to go get the history of
the Mormon or Catholic Church, would you go to an historian in their
employment?No,'right? Because there's a conflict of
interest.Hence, why it is necessary to go with outsider
perspectives. Are they all accurate? Absolutely not. But many are peer reviewed
and far more credible than those done with conflicts of interest.Henderson and Ranch are correct.I will celebrate Pioneer Day. The
pioneers made tremendous mistakes but also great sacrifices. I tend to focus on
the positive. Please, don't use Pioneer Day as a day to promote your
I never said that polygamy was the only reason.There were several
others. Mormons destroyed printing presses. They spoke out against slavery. They
had their own militia. And yes, there were competing religious and political
factions at the time who didn't want the Mormons to gain any more power and
wealth.Altogether, there were many logical and historic reasons for
their expulsion. I just took issue with your insistence that America
had matured.If anything, the Mormons had to mature too.We see this continue today. The church is evolving to meet the needs to
it's diverse and global community.
@2Bits, Confused & L White;You really don't know your own
history very well. Many Mormons STAYED in MO and had no problems with the
locals at all (Think Emma Smith and her group, the RLDS). They had no problems
because they rejected polygamy. If the rest of Mormonism had done the same,
they'd have had no problems as well. You also forgot to mention the
atrocities that Mormons were involved in at the time leading to their "being
driven" out.Of course, with all the white-washing that Mormon
history got up until recently, it isn't surprising that your knowledge of
your history is somewhat skewed.
@ 2 bitsContrary to what you believe, teachers don't teach
whatever they want. We actually follow the Utah State Core. If you wish to
educate yourself in what that is, google "UEN." There is nothing in the
state core that describes the westward expansion of then Mormons as being
triggered unfairly by Mormon faith. If you have a problem with this, then
please, contact your local representative. Lastly, as a history
teacher, I believe in teaching history from credible sources. Unfortunately, for
you, what you've heard in Sunday school is not a credible historic source.
Is it fine to find personal religious comfort in these teachings? Absolutely.
But as public educators we are bound to stick with credible historic sources and
not let our personal religious beliefs interfere with our teaching. After taking several history courses from BYU and UVU, I have yet to find a
single peer reviewed and credible source which indicates that Mormons were
kicked out for their "faith." Their faith included a marriage practice
that was illegal by American law. That is fact.Their
agreeing to end polygamy, not to stop practicing their faith, led to their
Henderson....For someone who teaches History, you sure missed the boat
with why the Saints were forced from "The United States"They
were not forced to leave because of Traditional Marriage, they were forced out
because of their religious belief which includes that God, Jesus and the Holy
spirit is three different personages. That the "Mormon Block" would undo
their loosen their Political Power both on the state and federal levels. The LDS
members were a bit exclusive and never really made efforts to include the non
LDS people in their gatherings(with some good reasons). But most of all, they
were forced because the Saints cultivated, and developed producing farms that
"Some" inhabitants of the states wanted for themselves.The
issue of Polygamy never came up until Brigham Young asked for statehood in
around 1857 or so. Then because of the Anti Mormon feelings still felt, they
made the Edmunds Tucker act.But I do agree with you that America was
not maturing like 2 bits originally mentioned, far from it... Johnson Army comes
to mind of the top of my mind.
My, my, but there is no religious tolerance in Utah. After reading some of these
comments I might have thought that I was transported back in time to Illinois or
Missouri. The Mormons were driven out of those States. They didn't leave
their farms and homes willingly. They were driven out at gun point.For the doubters who believe that they can mock and persecute people who
believe in God, they might want to read the history of Stillman Pond given by
President James E. Faust in "The Refiner's Fire". Brother Pond
lost nine of his eleven children and his wife after being driven out of Nauvoo
at bayonet point. Now we sit in comfortable homes. We drive on
beautiful streets. We enjoy everything that those pioneers built for us - and
some of those living in Utah seem to wish that they could drive out the Mormons
again. Nauvoo had a population larger than Chicago's. Nauvoo
had brick homes and well managed farms. Nauvoo also had envious neighbors who
wanted something for nothing.Things do not change much, do they?
@Henderson,Yes, I think America has "matured" since 1847.We are WAY more tolerant today.... More tolerant of Mormons AND polygamy
(which are not the same thing).========You study and
TEACH history for a living!... and you are "DISTURBED" that anyone would
think America has matured and is more tolerant? I am disturbed that someone
like you would be TEACHING history to my children!You seem to
actually know very little about history (that doesn't support your anti-LDS
agenda). America HAS matured since the 1800s. We ARE more tolerant of other
people (other faiths, other races, other nationalities, other lifestyles, you
name it, we are MORE tolerant than we were back then).WHAT are you
teaching our children???That "Mormons were driven out of the
United States for their rejection of traditional marriage and practice or what
was deemed as perverse, polygamy"???Polygamy wasn't the
reason mobs were assaulting and killing Mormons and burning their homes and
businesses. Polygamy wasn't why Gov Bogs issued the "Extermination
order". It was their FAITH. A faith that is so well tolerated in 2012
America that a MORMON can run for President... and almost win!
@ 2 bitsAs someone who studies and teaches history for a living, I
find your version of history quite unfounded and actually pretty disturbing.
America's maturation? Huh? So our nation has been maturing with the years?
What about now? Our congress seems less mature than a class of jr. High
schoolers!The history of this issue is pretty clear. Mormons were
driven out of the United States for their rejection of traditional marriage and
practice or what was deemed as perverse, polygamy.It wasn't
until the Utah territory agreed to end the practice of polygamy that Utahns were
granted statehood into the United States. I have several websites that can teach
you about this if you wish. Just let me know and I'll give you their names
(since I can't post any links).
You're dang right. You don't have to be LDS to appreciate what the
pioneers did.They left the United States to find Religious Freedom
(they were being murdered, raped, and had an official state sponsored
"extermination order" out for them in the United States. Pioneer day is
VERY MUCH about Religious Freedom.They left for good reason. By the
time America caught up with them again, American had matured a bit, and could
tolerate the Mormons again. Otherwise... we wouldn't have become a
State.You SHOULD have complete Religious Freedom in Utah (and I
think you do). Nobody's keeping you from going to ANY church you want, or
persecuting you for living your faith.=========To all
those who think Pioneer Day is a huge travesty... Massachusetts has legal
holidays for Patriots Day (April 21) and Bunker Hill Day (June 17th). They have
parades, fireworks, family gatherings, Boston Marathon, etc, these holidays
(just like we have on Pioneer Day).... Are these anti-Pioneer Day people just
as anti-Patriot Day? Or is it just an anti-Mormon thing for these people??Every State has their heritage and their holidays to help us remember
Can Hobby Lobby make up a holiday, and celebrate under freedom of Religion?If they can not even support women's healthcare, they surely
will not give their employees time off with pay....
To paraphrase a hero of mine...Mayor Rocky Anderson: It is astounding what
people are willing to do and say in the name of religion; when it's THEIR
religion!In my opinion, the LDS leadership has chosen to
discriminate and ostracize by disallowing "certain" participants. I will
avoid the parade and all festivities.I will avoid the parade and all
festivities associated with it.Freedom of Religion will NEVER be at
stake in this Nation. What is at stake is the freedom to not be religious.
Greg...nice try. But no, it's not about religious freedom for all
Americans. Don't even bother trying to make that point.
@trekker;Native Americans had already "settled" this state
and created a wonderful place to live long before the pioneers arrived.
So now the entitled want Pioneer Day off? Will it ever end?If you
don't want to work Pioneer Day, then don't! But why should more any
government intervene? If government can't force corporations to provide
health care then why should government force corporations to provide days
off?I remember, back in the good ol days, people worked all day
everyday. Now the lazy and entitled want health care, salaries, breaks, and days
off.Sheesh. It's amazing that this country hasn't imploded
already. Days off? This ain't France, hun!
The writer's position is a stretch to say the least. I will enjoy some pie
& beer and watch the locals set the valley ablaze with fireworks.
Most employers do not recognize Pioneer Day as a holiday. I will working on that
day just like any other work day, but I do appreciate the sacrifices made by the
pioneers to settle this state and create the wonderful place we live today.
You want employers to give their workers a day off? Isn't that socialism?
Greg;Utah doesn't believe in "religious freedom" for
"all Americans". If they did, they wouldn't be fighting
tooth-and-nail against the right for LGBT Americans (many of whom are Christian)
to marry. Many churches believe that marriage for LGBT couples is fine and are
more than willing to perform them in their church. Utah's fight against
the religious freedom of these churches blows your argument completely out of
"The early state legislators recognized the sacrifices made by people of all
faiths for religious freedom and chose to set this day aside as a state holiday
beneficial to all Utahns."Cmon Greg. At least be honest.Pioneer day is a Mormon themed holiday."They should ask
their employers to grant them the right to honor this day and give it the
respect it deserves."Actually, when I lived and worked in Utah,
I did exactly the opposite. I petitioned the company to remove Pioneer day as a
holiday and replace it with a floating day. Our employees agreed and a change
was made.I saw this as a win for everyone.
I really doubt most non-LDS'ers know that Pioneer day is an ecumenical
celebration.I can certainly understand its celebration by Utah
citizens, not unlike Alamo day in Texas. However, to call Pioneer day a
celebration of religious freedom is a bit of a stretch. And furthermore, did
anyone ask if the Native Americans wanted to celebrate the day?
Ok, it about "religion" Why not Rash Hosanna, Ramadan, or Ash Wednesday?BTW -- Utah also had another unique
holiday in October called; "The Deer Hunt"
No.It's clearly about celebrating the Mormon pioneers'
arrival into Salt Lake City.