Thank you for writing your letter, I fully agree with it-not because I like the
thought, but because it is an objective and observable fact. Granting a largely
good, religious people the freedom to own and develop their own property and
retain the benefits of its use has produced more food, goods, luxuries,
technologies, medicine, and humanitarian work than any other form of human
government ever recorded (and left on the Earth).God and liberty.
In every country that has encroached on either or both of these things,
dramatically reduced results have been observed, without exception. It's
only after increased opposition to both of these things in this nation-A desire
for secularism and government control-that we've stopped leading the rest
of the world in production.
The unfortunate tendencies of the thin-skinned distort the meaning of the word
"patriotism" to the point it becomes a vague but unmistakable "us or
them" debate. Unless you're a Toby-Keith-loving, flag-waving,
Glenn-Beck-listening, "Don't Tread on Me" type, you run the risk of
being branded an "America hater." That stuff isn't patriotism;
it's just volume and bluster.The core problem with the loudest
American "patriots" is that they imply (our say outright) that not only
is America great, but it's better than (insert your country here).
It's like someone who isn't content to succeed; they prefer to revel
in their primacy, ignoring their own warts while watching others struggle. Far too many conservative public figures take this route, and end up
preaching to an eager choir, trotting out the usual emotion-driven nonsense to
whip their constituency into a frenzy, and demonizing anyone who has the
temerity to say "Yeah, but what about this . . "If I just
described you or anyone you voted for recently, you're part of the problem.
A rolling stone gather no moss. I like my place where I live. I think that my
utility bills could be cheaper and taxes lower but I've accumulated so much
stuff I'm stuck.
To "intervention" I am not questions his faith. I am questioning if he
really is LDS since he often claims to be LDS and has less knowledge of LDS
doctrine than the average 12 year old LDS member.Tell me, what is
cherry picked? I only use clear and simple quotes from the LDS scriptures,
General Conference addresses, and official statements by the LDS president or
First Presidency. Wouldn't you agree that if God said that he divinely
inspired the US Constitution, and set up the US to be a beacon of freedom, that
would qualify as making the US exceptional?
Nationalism needs to have bounds. There are too many people here that would
defend the USA even when it's 100% wrong on something. You're only a libertarian when you fight for other people's freedom
as well as yours.
@redshirtI m pretty sure the LDS church also has counseled against
calling others faith into question but go ahead and cherry pick through their
teachings to fit your own arguments.
re: Redshirt1701"...According to D&C 101, the US
constitution was set up to make this a free nation, and that the US is to be a
beacon on a hill to lead other nations to freedom."You are aware
that parts of the D of I & COTUS were 'borrowed' from the
Freemason's Constitution? So, if the US has enough freemasons; we'll
get the same treatment as the city of Enoch?re: Tyler D today about
lunchtimeI was thinking along those lines myself. Isn't
interesting how some of the concepts we use in government were
"co-opted" from polytheistic societies?Coincidence that Rome
fell after adopting Christianity?
"Divinely Inspired"?? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary
evidence. Besides, if that's true, what was god doing with humanity and
nation states prior to the founding of the USA? Blindly ignoring whatever
mistakes and misery we caused up to 1776, then deciding on an intervention?
That's not an intelligent design. It's callous ineptitude.
"But our greatest accomplishment is our liberty, our Constitution, and our
government by the people (which was revolutionary at the time,"Ahh not really. Our constitution and system were unique but were based on
past constitutions and systems of law. Personally I think it's
pretty hard to say that our system that has morphed into a two party take it or
leave system is superior to a parlimentary system that is far more inclusive of
different ideals. I also think that this infatuation with American
exceptionalism is the reason conservatives have overtaken the Republican party
and are systmeatically destroying the American future.Give me a
Repbulican any day of the week over a conservative. In fact it's beyond my
comprihension why anyone would openly brag about being a conservative.
@2 bits"first to master manned space flight"With
the what now??? America got to the moon but please look in the history books
about the space programs of the USSR and the USA. USSR has a whole lot of firsts
in the list for its space program. Among these being:First
satelliteFirst data communicationsFirst person in spaceFirst
unmanned rendezvous and dockingFirst space stationThats just a
sample."advanced medicine"Debatable, I would say
the discovery of penicillin and DNA are the big hitters in the centuries to
IMO there's nothing WRONG with having pride in your country and our
accomplishments. And you don't have to be blind to our mistakes to be
proud of what we have done. But you also don't focus on our mistakes to
the exclusion of all else (as some leftists do).We make mistakes, no
doubt. But that doesn't mean we aren't exceptional.We
make mistakes, but we were also the first to master manned space flight and put
a man on the moon. We have also cured diseases and advanced medicine more than
any other country. But our greatest accomplishment is our liberty, our
Constitution, and our government by the people (which was revolutionary at the
time, when KINGS ruled most countries, but has now swept the globe).You don't have to put down America. We all know we make mistakes. But
we are still exceptional in many ways.
2 bits said - "Oh boy... this will bring the America Haters out..."I loved my dad but I knew he wasn't perfect. We disagreed on some
issues and if I argued with him it was because I wanted to persuade him to
change his opinion. Not because I hated him, but because I loved him.When I was an adolescent in the midst of the Vietnam War we used to hear
"America, love it or leave it." If somebody doesn't agree with the
writer of this letter, it is not because they hate their country. They try to
change it to make it better, at least in their opinion. I wholeheartedly
disagree with the positions of the far right politicians and pundits of this
country but I don't think they hate America. But I do think some of them
The writer seems to have a case of "No place like home" syndrome.Had he been Chilean it would Chile was the greatest, Russian; Russia is
the greatest.We all have bias for home, that is why it is home.
“a land divinely inspired”The societies throughout
history that claim to be modelled on inspiration from the God of Abraham have
almost unanimously preferred kings and ecclesiastical authorities, so when did
God finally decide that a democratic republic free from state religion was the
way to go?If gods don't change their minds, then perhaps the
gods we should be following are Zeus and Jupiter since our republic was modelled
on Athenian democracy and the Roman Republic.
Anti Bush-ObamaChihuahua, 00LDS LiberalYour the first
Pacifist I've ever known that has a collection of firearms.10:34 a.m. July 8, 2014[It's not to start a REBELLION against
our Government. It's for Anarchy. I only keep a gun, because I
know there too many non-military/non-militia 2nd amendment gun-nuts who think
they can over throw the Government.]======== 2 bitsCottonwood Heights, UTRe-read my comment.I SAID -- I used to
be a hardcore, conservative Republican.I left the party over 30
years ago because of what I saw.I have been officially
"UN-Affiliated" for most of the time ever since.And by these
posts, only the chicken hearted AM radio listeners are the only ones what
seek war.True Warriors do not.We despize it.We do
everything we can to avoid.War is something we should NEVER start,
provoke, or encourage. You should read more from the Book of Mormon,
and what happened to those who did...
"No other country or people has advanced the progress of human quality of
life, love of liberty or pursuit of opportunity than this--a land divinely
inspired and unabated in its relentless pursuit to preserve those
liberties."I agree with the author's statement.
@LDS Liberal,Re: "I have YET to meet a single Conservative who
has served our country"...Not true (that there's not a
single Conservative in the American military). I know several serving today and
in the past in my own family. You just need to get outside YOUR bubble and see
them. If you did.. you would find that about half consider themselves to be
"Conservative" (note - "Republican" is not the same as
"Conservative").============But don't take
my word for it... how about the Military Times poll and Washington Times article
that totally dismisses your assumption..."Just over one third of
U.S. military personnel say they support the Republican Party, down from nearly
a half in 2006, according to the latest annual Military Times poll.But the
survey shows that underlying political attitudes among troops remain more or
less unchanged, with a plurality of 41 percent continuing to describe themselves
as “conservative” or “very conservative,” compared with
44 percent in 2006.Support for the Democrats remains low, the publication
reports. About 14 percent of respondents to the latest poll call themselves
Democrats, the same as in 2006"...
Some famous liberal socialist minded politicians and their military service.Harry Reid - Nope capital police does not count.Bill Clinton - took
deferments then opted to ROTC to avoid draft, nope turned it down and got a 311
draft number.Hillary Clinton - NopeJohn Kerry - yep then threw his
medals over the fence.Don't know any conservative past
military, let me introduce you to my father, two brothers, four uncles, four
nephews. Oh and the missionary issue of being out of the country, really? Are
you saying all those conservative past Mormon missionaries all went stateside?
Loathing (June 2013)your neighbors is hardly compassionate nor is it
commendable, military, mission, and college aside.
American is not that much different from the rest of the World. We are all in
slavery to the Rothschilds. The only difference is that Americas cages are nicer
than most. But they are about to get a serious downgrade.
LDS Liberal"The MILITARY of all places, transformed me
from the hardcore, conservative, Utah Republican, into the bleeding heart,
war passivist, liberal I am today."Your the first Pacifist
I've ever known that has a collection of firearms.
BTW -- It was while living in the Military [and my LDS Mission], having food, clothing, shelter, education, universal healthcare, etc.That turned me away from the dog-eat-dog world of Capitalism and business, and more toward Socialism and having "All things in Common".Getting out of the Utah BUBBLE, and actually living amongst the evil and
scarey "Socialists" in Canada, Australia, Germany, England, France,
Japan, Italy, Israel, Panama, etc., etc... The AM radio hacks are
charlitans and liars!People through out the world are wonderful,
beautiful, loving and caring.I found that we truely are Brothers and
Sisters.The MILITARY of all places, transformed me from the
hardcore, conservative, Utah Republican, into the bleeding heart, war
passivist, liberal I am today.I have YET to meet a single
Conservative who has served our country, or who has ever left the
Ah, our greatness and glory.
Continued from above...Finally, we used to embrace science. We led
the way in innovation and technology. Today? This vocal minority is waging a war
on green technology. They punish those who use green technology. Just look at
what RMP is doing to solar panel users! Look at what our own legislature did
this past session to energy efficient car users. They deny global warming and
want us to continue to use dirty fuel. This vocal minority cheers court cases
which count bribery as forms of free speech and denied women necessary
medication.We need to get America back on track. I love America but
needs to be saved from this vocal minority.
Doesn't it seem strange that not one nation could be found that even comes
close to the greatness of America, especially on our own side of the world,
among our closest friends?Is the American greatness likely to be
seen as a credit or discredit by the world?
I too love America. It used to be the greatest country on earth. We used to
embrace freedom, economics which helped the poor and middle-class, and science.
Unfortunately, a few brothers from Kansas and their cohorts have
hijacked our political system. A small yet vocal political faction resembling
another one in Germany early in the past century have taken over. They have bent
tax laws so now you make more money owning stocks and receiving inheritances
rather than actually working. They have drastically expanded government
surveillance and even started 2 wars in the Middle East. They took away embassy
and VA funding, bragged about it on national tv, then started a witch hunt when
it blew up in their faces. They purposely want to hurt government, hurt people,
so they can privatize government to their oligarch friends. They even shut down
the government last year!Their economic policy consists of taking
from the poor and middle class and giving it to the rich. They claim that if we
give the rich all the money then it will trickle down as they are the beloved
job creators and all of us are just their minions.To be continued...
@2 bits – “this will bring the America Haters out...”Personally I have never met an America hater. I’m sure they exist
– Islamic radicals and the occasional radical college professor come to
mind – but I’d guess this narrative is largely a fiction perpetuated
as a lazy expedient for getting votes.Most people I know - at least
once they’re out of middle school and realize the world is more complex
than the black & white heroes & villains portrayed in cartoons and pop
sci fi films- are fully capable is seeing that our great country was founded and
populated by human beings, with goodness and warts and all. And why
is the subtext of this narrative always a zero sum game (i.e., America’s
greatness necessarily implies the inferiority of other countries). Why is
that?For the party that most often recognizes the positive sum
scenario inherent in free market capitalism, I fail to understand why they so
often revert back to this immature, tribal, for me to win you must lose mindset.
It appears the DN monitor doesn't like Veterans today...I'll try again -- The WORLD is a pretty great place, America is not an exception or ELITE above all others.As a
veteran, I have served and visted too many countries to even count.They
are ALL wonderful.Different?, Yes Unique? - Absolutely.That's
what makes them so Beautiful.However, people everywhere are 100% the
same, our cultures and governements are the only difference.America has done some good in the world, and [like it or not]America has doen some BAD in the world.That's facts,
that's reality.The sooner some of us drop the "We're
number 1", "God made us better than everyone else", American exceptionalism, The further removed we'll be from
uber-Nationalism and a repeat of the follies of Fascism.
I too have traveled extensively. I love to visit other countries and agree that
there is beauty and accomplishment to drink in. However, the U.S., until
recently was unique in its view of freedom. You could say whatever you wanted
without fear that the government would come after you. You could hear multiple
sides of any issue debated. Those days are slipping away as the government is
now being used to target those with whom some disagree and used to force others
to engage in conduct which violates their conscience. There are those who want
to make us like Europe and they are succeeding.
No, 2bits, is pointing out that America has faults just a matter of hatred?Or could it be a matter of TRUE patriotism to try to recognize that we
have -- along with all our blessings -- some very serious shortcomings that need
to be overcome? If we, as a nation, fail to recognize our failings
there is no chance that we will ever be able to correct them.The
real haters of America are those who simply refuse to examine our nation
carefully and honestly, instead condemning anyone who dares to disagree with
@2 bitsI dont hate America, its a nice place to visit. I do take
objection to it being described as the bestest place ever, chosen by God to be a
shining example to us lesser folk in other countries.Not number 1 in my
ideal place to live, but its in the top 10.
Everywhere has its pro & cons.re: CHS 85"...the
world. I'm pretty sure they all think they are divinely inspired."Like Iran & N Korea?
Oh boy... this will bring the America Haters out...
I spent a fair amount of my military career overseas - South Korea, Germany, and
Iraq. There are greatness and beauty everywhere if you look for it. I have
visited areas where freedom and civility have reigned for thousands of years,
and others where civility was non-existent. America is great, but just because
a place is different doesn't make it "less great." I suggest you
take a drive across Europe and visit a place like Andorra where their entire
military consists of twelve ceremonial soldiers. Visit a place like Italy where
the Renaissance began and the age of exploration. There is much to love and
appreciate all over the world. I'm pretty sure they all think they are
No other country or people has advanced the progress of human quality of life,
love of liberty or pursuit of opportunity than this--a land divinely inspired
and unabated in its relentless pursuit to preserve those liberties."Months away from home and you managed to maintain your bubble in perfect
condition. Or maybe the writer has just never read a history book, both a world
history or an American history book. Sorry but there's far
more to "quality of life" than cars, malls, and 14 kinds of cheerios.
Also different isn't less. Sorry this whole divinely inspired
thing is getting old. Today it's simply an excse for hubris.America can be a wonderful place to live but it doesn't need to be the
best place in the history of the planet or bear the God approved seal of
approval in order to be so. In fact a truer love would be to love
America for what she is and the progress she's made, not for some fantasy
Pride goeth before a fall.America is okay, I lived in the States for
a few years as well as a few other countries. If I had to live somewhere else
permanently, Canada or Australia would be my destination.I often heard
when I was in the States that USA is no.1 in everything and other countries were
just plain inferior. Comically some of these people didn't even hold a
passport. America is good in some ways and bad in others, just like the vast
majority of countries in the world.