23,000 is well shy of 45,000
dallas realist:I stand corrected.
@ Naval VetAlamo stadium in San Antonio is 23,000
If Bronco wants to push this kind of analysis and requirement, BYU and all other
private universities should be required to open their athletic funding books to
public scrutiny. This is the only way to truly level the playing field. One
area of contention will be student athletic fees. The article seems to indicate
such fees are considered part of the subsidy. I know BYU charges student
athletic fees just like nearly every other university in the country. So is BYU
willing to disclose how much it collects from its students and then subtract
that amount from total revenue to reveal the truth?
If the Y doesn't release their financials, how do we KNOW they are
operating in the black? Just because they "say" that they are? Because
that just doesn't cut it with me. If you run an above board program, you
release the financials. If you've got something to hide, or if you're
running some sort of smoke-&-mirrors fund raising, then you don't.eastcoastcoug:"Some high schools in Texas have more
seats..."That's only cougar folklore. I graduate from high
school in Texas: there are no high schools with 40K seat stadiums. The biggest
high school stadiums in Texas are just south of 22K.
Re: WACPaddingOurScheduleSo just because you've been handed
something means you deserve it? Your comment is a prime example of the
entitlement problem. 'I have something therefore I deserve it.' You
couldn't be more wrong.
Bronco recently voiced that he would LOVE to be a member of a Big 5 conference.
And now he follows that up by telling the Big 5 members that they should have to
do their business differently.Interesting strategy for someone who
is trying to get invited to the club. Let's see how that works out.
BigCougarYou forget one thing. If they kick out all of the bottom
feeders, then they will be beating up each other like crazy. It will be one,
big, crazy, stab your opponent in the back kind of situation. I don't think
that will happen. The bottom feeders will stay. They may try to give the bottom
feeders less money, some way, based on their records. We'll see.
I enjoyed reading the finer points of this article. I do believe there is a
good chance once Utah is a full fledged member of the PAC-12 distribution they
will be in the black so long as they don't get crazy keeping up with other
teams. This of course depends on the fans still coming out (which so far
isn't a problem).I would be very interested if BYU actually
reported some past numbers on athletic expenditures/income. With how successful
most of their sport teams are, I would wonder if they have any lesser sports
that are self-sufficient like Men's V-ball. Probably not, but here is to
hoping.I think requiring teams to be in the black would severely
limit the number of P5 teams. There are only enough schools to field two
leagues (including BYU).
Everyone bow down and worship the golden calf, or cow, or just the gold. College
sports is fun to watch because the players don't get paid. Sad that this is
Cougar ClawsLindon, UTAsking greedy selfish people to behave
responsibly seems to be too much to ask. That much seems clear based on some of
the comments based on here. I realize it's only sports, but it's
likely people apply the principles they run their college sports programs on to
their personal lives as well, which is why our country and our society has so
many entitlement problems today.___________Thanks for
pointing that out. To this day, I have never understood why BYU fans think they
deserve what the don't have. You don't earn by complaining.
Most of the commenters here have absolutely no concept of how college athletics
works. Give it up already.
re: Brave Sir Robin"Sure, let's take Bronco's advice
and split D1 into two halves. I'll give you three guesses which half BYU
will be in."The half that doesn't exist?
@Pearl 94"However, the fact remains that taking deliberate and overt
steps away from the game’s amateur status will simply turn it into a poor
man’s NFL. While I’m no economist, all you have to do is look at the
D-League for the NBA or minor league baseball to see how much interest there is
in lower-tier sports."------------------Greed once
unleashed has an insatiable appetite and p5 schools will eventually turn on each
other. Good point about the minor league sports. We've also seen how well
leagues like the AFL, USFL, WFL, and XFL have faired vs the NFL. Where are they
@ekute"Informative article but I doubt that the P5 is asking for input
from anybody at byu.Uninvited criticisms and warnings are going to
keep you uninvited."It's even more unlikely that
they're going to pay attention to your opinion on this. Look at recent
history, once upon a time Utah used to give constant uninvited criticisms and
warnings about the unfairness of the BCS system but that didn't preclude
them getting invited.At some point there will be further division
between the haves and the have nots. Non-revenue producing schools like Utah
that hang on the coat tails of the money makers will eventually feel the bite as
the USCs, Oregons, Texas, Ohio States, etc all want more of the pie and no
longer want to share with the little fish. We've seen things
change constantly, and short-sighted people who think the way it is today is the
way it will always be won't be prepared for the next round of changes.
We'll see a 65 team Division get whittled down even further when the bigger
programs don't want to share with the bottom feeders.
The great thing about college football is the "ownership" by students,
alums, and local fans.BUTTurning it into a semi-pro
league will bankrupt most schools, including Utah.As I've said
before the number of AP NC teams since 1970 is less than 30 (and BYU is one of
them) and only 11 teams have won a BCS title. Here are the BCS teams and
numbers:Tennessee 1FSU 2OK 1Miami 1OSU 1LSU 2USC 2Texas 1Florida 2Alabama 3Auburn 1Does anybody think this picture changes with a 4-team playoff?
Can't. The deck is rigged. You'll see the above list in the playoffs
year after year.Unless we have an open playoff, like NCAA hoops, the
playoffs will be more of the same. Lets have at least a top 16 team playoff,
picked by the polls. No conference (read SEC) influence. Play the season, win
the games, then win the playoffs.Then we might see a Utah, K-State,
BYU sneak in once in a while. Never happen with the stacked deck we have now.
At any rate, I just want college football to remain an amateur sport.
That's part of what makes it special.
@Lifelong Ute"I don't care how much money my program loses. I
care about winning. Lets spend whatever we need to win. The rewards(including
money) will follow the wins. And why is Bronco telling his superiors how to run
their universities?"-----------If you fail to learn
from history you'll be doomed to repeat it. Limited revenue producing
producing programs like Utah will suffer trying to keep up spending with the
powerhouse programs like USC, Stanford, Oregon, etc. Look at what Cal has been
struggling with in their athletic dept . They make significantly more money than
UTah but were so upside down with their finances they had to start cutting
athletic programs. Deficit spending has an unpleasant and eventual end.The mission of the Univ of Utah will always be academics and when one sport
continues to drain and take from the academic mission of the school and deny
other student athletes the chance to compete when their sports get cut ,
especially when all the resources are getting sucked dry by a program that is
the perennial doormat and can't deliver on the field.
I love it when Bronco says BYU athletics is in the black . Tuition at Stanford
is 40,000 a year so an athletic scholarship has to cover that cost. The LDS
church subsidizes BYU costs so tuition is about 10% of Stanford's so
scholarship costs to the university are much cheaper. While it is said the LDS
church doesn't subsidize athletics directly, their financial support of
the University does have a big impact on athletic costs making it much easier to
be n the black.
I disagree with continuing scholarships to athletes who opt for the pro
sports' drafts before they graduate. It is important that they graduate,
but they can do that on their own money. The college administrators'
thinking is upside down, for sure. It all started when the NCAA started to allow
athletes to opt for the draft before graduation. I think the courts had
something to do with it. It is all about the money, which rules everything.
College athletics should take its rightful place - but not at the top of
importance - in the institutions of learning.
This will be my last year buying football season tickets. The game has been
priced out of my entertainment value range. Following football on TV will be my
sole venue going forward.
The big benefit for Utah being in the PAC-12 is the fans get to see some good
teams come to town every other year. But let's face it, it is mostly bad.
The Utes will never really contend for a football or basketball title and many
of their programs are just horrible in the PAC-12 (see baseball). BYU should expect much the same joining the Big 12. I mean, will it's
baseball program truly compete with programs like TCU, Texas etc.? Football
should expect a lot of seasons similar to Utah and TCU since joining these power
conferences. Around .500 and maybe the type of bowl game they would have got
from staying in the MWC.BYU does have a much better overall athletic
program than Utah and could fair decently in some sports but as for Utah, they
joined the "Conference of Champions" and let's be honest, they
haven't fared well, gymnastics aside. That is Utah's future and
likely BYU's future to a certain extent if it joins the Big 12. I guess,
be careful what you wish for.But it would be great if one these
schools brought back a wrestling program...
Asking greedy selfish people to behave responsibly seems to be too much to ask.
That much seems clear based on some of the comments based on here. I realize
it's only sports, but it's likely people apply the principles they run
their college sports programs on to their personal lives as well, which is why
our country and our society has so many entitlement problems today.
Subtext: Hey? We're in the blaaaaack! If you split, can we come along too?
Purdy please? With sugar and skittles on top?
The more Bronco stomps his feet about byu not being included as a P5 team, the
less likely it is to happen. @eastcoastcoug:Chest
thumping about stadium size is a 20th century concept. With HD technology
(something byu fans also consistently brag about), more and more fans are
choosing to have their game day experience in front of a TV, instead of in a
stadium. Plus, I would rather see a 45 thousand seat stadium filled to capacity
and have high energy, over a 65 thousand seat stadium with stretches of
emptiness throughout. Having been to both Utah's and byu's stadium for
big games, I would take Utah's every time, and it's not even close.
I think it's funny when finances in CFB are discussed. Forget about
operating in the black...my question is how long the USCs & Ohio
State's and Texas' are going to be ok with equal revenue sharing with
the little guys who bring little to the table like Utah. Trust me, socialist
economics like equal revenue sharing never last long when the big dogs see how
much better off they'd be without leeches siphoning off their budget.
If/when it truly becomes about money, BYU brings a larger fanbase more eyeballs
on TV sets and therefore more money than many programs who are P5 by name and
association only. If you don't think ESPN did market research
before offering their pile of money to the PAC12 and broke down who the real
earners are versus the small time programs, you're naive. In the future I
don't see big time programs willing to continue sharing with pretenders. In
other words "Div 1" will be about 24-32 programs in the future, and Utah
won't even be close to making THAT cutoff which will have little to do with
research status and everything to do with money.
high school fanI am afraid you might be right. Dylan Cannon on
KSL.com brought up some interesting points about how college football is
becoming dangerously close to professional football."However,
the fact remains that taking deliberate and overt steps away from the
game’s amateur status will simply turn it into a poor man’s NFL.
While I’m no economist, all you have to do is look at the D-League for the
NBA or minor league baseball to see how much interest there is in lower-tier
It would seem that whether or not a school decides to subsidize its athletic
programs is up to them. I don't see how it affects the decision to create a
new division or not. I suspect that if BYU were included in the new proposed
division they would not be questioning how other schools operate.
Just curious, how does anyone know that Bronco's school is operating in the
black? I thought as a private institution they chose to not disclose financials
to the public.
Informative article but I doubt that the P5 is asking for input from anybody at
byu.Uninvited criticisms and warnings are going to keep you
Why did we (taxpayers) complain when politicians who make hundreds of thousands
get a 2% raise, but we have no problem shelling out millions for college
coaches. This is our money that is going into their pockets.I
won't comment on the splitting up of D1, but I completely agree with Bronco
on fiscal responsibility. There is no reason why any D1 school shouldn't
be able to operated in the black. Some restraint needs to be imposed to ensure
athletic programs are self funding, just like budgets in business.If
universities can't figure out a way to make athletic departments meet their
expenses, we (taxpayers) should require that they be eliminated. I have no
problem subsidizing education. I have a big gripe with subsidizing coaches who
make 50-100X more than the average American.
How to solve the problem. Starting with head coach salaries would be a good
Chris BUsing your logic, spending $2 million in order to make $1
million is a good long-term financial strategy. The only way that works in the
real world is if you have the taxpayers to bail you out.Utah's
football program will never be as valuable as USC, Stanford's, or
Oregon's, no matter how much you win (assuming the Utes will ever win in
the PAC).Bronco is right: College football, and higher education in
general, are headed for a massive financial Day of Reckoning. As the costs of
both continue to escalate well beyond inflation the bubble will eventually pop,
leaving those schools who deficit spend to maintain their "Power 5"
athletic programs in the same situation as those persons during the housing
crisis who had negative equity in their homes.
Chris BUtah should be at the top of the list of schools that need to
get their athletics programs in the black, before worrying about splitting into
a new division.Despite your false claim, the cash isn't
"pouring in" to the U. In fact, the U has a $400 million backlog in
deferred maintain. While the Utes are spending exorbitantly on leather couches
for their new football practice facility, Utah's classroom buildings are
We know one thing for sure. The powerhouse, Rose Bowl winning, NC contender,
Bowl juggernaut Utah Uteys are the foundation of the PAC12 and College football.
However, 2014 will bring a 4-8 record and KW will be fired. The
Uteys are the Kansas of the Big 12, without a BB team. The Utes are nothing
outside little little SLC.
I like the idea of a performance criteria being established for seperating the
schools. Graduation rates, Student academic perforance, fiscal responsibility,
athletic achievement, facility management etc... could all be measured for a
school to compete at the top tier. If you measure up, play with the top tier.
If you don't measure up, be accountable and improve your school in order to
play. It doesnt' make sense for states to have their hightest paid public
employee be a football coach. when the state school is operating in the red.
And when colleges become pro football teams then I will become even more of a
Hugh school fan with junior college thrown into the mix. Without getting into
the BYU Utah debate, this is not what college athletics is supposed to be.This could be the move that kills the golden goose.
BYU football would make it a lot easier on itself if the team would just win
games. We have no BCS bowl appearances or wins. We have failed to step up. We
make our best case by winning. Period. As for Utah making tons of
money...let's face it: with such a small stadium the only thing propping up
Ute football is big donors and the state of Utah. You can't be in the black
with only 40k some-odd seats in your stadium. Some high schools in Texas have
Overheard in the Big 12, I told you what it would be like working with BYU, said
the TCU representative. Yes, but we couldn't, believe you - until now,
said all the other representatives.
I don't care how much money my program loses. I care about winning. Lets
spend whatever we need to win. The rewards(including money) will follow the
wins. And why is Bronco telling his superiors how to run their universities?
It takes a lot of money to make a lot of money. The cash is pouring
in and utah's revenues are going up by the millions. I fully support the
investments Utah is making to build PAC 12 quality facilities. Bronco thinks his program is relevant because it doesn't spend the money
necessary to have a big time program?Lol! Not how it works broncoBesides, we already have a plan for who is included in the new division
I, the only division that will be relevant Power 5 = included Mid major = excluded
@mjkkjkI'm guessing the Utes want to stick with the school
color. It's all about the marketing after all. :)
The chances of college presidents adopting Bronco's advice on finances are
about the same as the chances that college coaches will adopt his practice of
referring to the "red zone" as the "blue zone".
Based on these first two comments, I think you can guess what color the Utes are
operating in.Maybe you should scale back a bit on the PAC 12 signs.
That should get you in the black pretty easily
I wonder if Bronco will take the next step and publicly identify which members
of the Big-12 he deems as unworthy? It certainly is a novel
marketing approach. Preach on, Brother Mendenhall!
Sure, let's take Bronco's advice and split D1 into two halves.
I'll give you three guesses which half BYU will be in.