Brad Rock: BYU would love saying adios to independence

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  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    Oct. 24, 2014 10:43 a.m.

    What is the mission of BYU as a school?

    With Texas announcing that they will pay athletes. Can anyone honestly say that BYU will do the same?
    That in itself is why BYU will never compete or be on the level for a P5 invite. Its reality.

    And its a bummer that college athletics is going down this road. There are some schools with profitable athletic departments, some that do not and will be propped up by schools. And yet there will be some that will not pay and either fold sports or step back from P5 status. Yes I think thats inevitable.

    Yes BYU does have a profitable athletic department. I just don't see them paying athletes and getting involved in that mess. Again I ask, what is the mission of the school?

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    Oct. 16, 2014 8:37 a.m.


    Average MWC finish during the Bronco/Kyle era:

    BYU 2.0
    Utah 2.6

    MWC Championships

    BYU 2
    Utah 1

    btw, TCU routinely ate Utah's lunch, so stop trying to piggy-back off of TCU's success.

  • bc1050 Sandy, UT
    Oct. 9, 2014 2:41 p.m.

    There are too many negatives about BYU for BYU to be invited to join a major conference.

  • U-tar Woodland Hills, UT
    Oct. 8, 2014 12:12 p.m.

    It seems just yesterday that BYU was bragging about how great their independence was. After last weeks game, it just shows they are not good enough for a major conference. They are alway too inconsistent and do not have the killer instinct needed to be champions.

  • LonestarRunner Salt Lake City, UT
    June 26, 2014 1:53 p.m.

    Tomahawk Red

    LOL at your hilarious spin:

    "[BYU has:] Lost 5 of the last 8 to Washington"

    BYU is 4-5 versus Washington; Utah is 0-8.

    "[BYU has:] Lost 8 of the last 12 to bottom-dweller Colorado.

    BYU has won 3 of the last 4 versus Colorado and hasn't lost to the Buffaloes since a 7-9 set back at Colorado in 1947; Utah lost to the 10-loss Buffaloes in 2011.

    "[BYU has:] Lost 7 of the last 9 to UCLA (another team you nearly NEVER beat)"

    BYU is 2-1 versus UCLA during the Bronco era and beat the Bruins 59-0 in their last meeting; Utah is 2-3 versus UCLA during the Kyle era and lost 27-34 at home to the Bruins in 2013.

  • WA_Alum&Dad Marysville, WA
    June 25, 2014 4:24 p.m.

    The Big 12 will expand when it becomes obvious that the championship selection committee has penalized their top team(s) for not having played that one additional top SOS game: a conference championship. Until then it is all about sharing revenue among fewer teams. Seems awfully short-sighted to me, but that will change in about a year.

    Until then, just win, baby.

  • Tomahawk Red North Salt Lake, UT
    June 25, 2014 3:20 p.m.

    River Falls, WI

    As for your claim that BYU is better versus the Pac8/10/12...

    BYU has:

    -Lost 8 of the last 13 to Arizona
    -Lost an ABYSMAL 20 of the last 25 games to ASU
    -Lost 8 of the last 12 to bottom-dweller Colorado
    -Has NEVER beaten USC
    -Has NEVER beaten Stanford (want some advice on that one?)
    -Lost 7 of the last 9 to UCLA (another team you nearly NEVER beat)
    -Lost 5 of the last 8 to Washington

    And its record against the rest of the Pac 12 is mediocre, at best.

    Utah has lost more games to Pac 12 teams than BYU has because Utah has played far more games against Pac 12 teams than BYU has.

    The same reason BYU has lost to WCC teams more than Utah has.

  • Tomahawk Red North Salt Lake, UT
    June 25, 2014 3:11 p.m.

    River Falls, WI

    I concede that BYU has lost four in a row to Utah. If that fact alone makes you the better team than you have to admit inferiority to Colorado State, Houston, and Hawaii (each of which have recent win streaks of 4 or more against Utah).


    Maybe you should do some research before you make ridiculous smack claims. Utah has beaten Colorado State five times in a row, last losing in 2005.

    Of course, you MAY be referring to a losing streak at SOME POINT in the last 50 years. And if that's the case it might be the lamest smack I've ever heard. "You guys lost five straight to CSU... 12 years ago!"

    Utah lost six straight to Hawaii... 23 years ago. Utah has never beaten Houston, last playing in... 1978.

    Wow that sounds great don't it? And it's so relevant to today's Utes too. LOL! That's a reach on smack talk if I've ever heard it.

    Utah lost five straight to CSU between 1998-2002. Yes, the Rams were better than Utah back then. Just like Utah is better than BYU right now.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    June 25, 2014 1:17 p.m.

    Thank you for making my point for me. I said nothing about BYU competing in the PAC12 and/or speculated about BYU's possible success or lack thereof in that conference.

    I did clearly show that head-to-head might not mean as much as Ute fans claim and insinuated that fans of the University clearly have not "moved on" when they feel the need to cite head-to-head vs. BYU in nearly every single BYU article when clearly they have larger problems in their own conference (losing streaks of 10 to ASU and 8 to Washington, are you kidding me?).

    I concede that BYU has lost four in a row to Utah. If that fact alone makes you the better team than you have to admit inferiority to Colorado State, Houston, and Hawaii (each of which have recent win streaks of 4 or more against Utah).

    Go ahead and slap up another PAC12 bumper sticker and brace yourself for another losing season, you clearly belong in the conference of champions.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    June 25, 2014 10:55 a.m.

    To PacUtes and others who are fixated with the rivals they left behind

    Utah's losing streak to Arizona: 2
    Utah's losing streak to Arizona State: 10
    Utah's losing streak to Oregon: 2 (5 of last 6)
    Utah's losing streak to Oregon State: 2
    Utah's losing streak to USC: 3 (9 of last 10)
    Utah's losing streak to UCLA: 2 (10 of last 12)
    Utah's losing streak to Washington: 8 (they've never beat them)

    Other recent losing streaks include Colorado State (5), Hawaii (6), Houston (4), Boise State (4)

    BYU has a higher win percentage (i.e. is better head-to-head) than Utah against most of the PAC12 teams. Utah can claim a better head-to-head versus Arizona, Colorado, and Stanford and USC (two teams BYU has only played twice each), while BYU has a better head-to-head versus ASU, Cal, Oregon, OSU, UCLA, Washington, and WSU. No wonder y'all are having such a hard time "moving on".

  • PacUtes Salt Lake, UT
    June 25, 2014 7:37 a.m.

    For those who said Utah is going "downhill"...
    11/27/10: Utah 17 BYU 16
    9/17/11: Utah 54 BYU 10
    9/15/12: Utah 24 BYU 21
    9/21/13: Utah 20 BYU 13

  • PacUtes Salt Lake, UT
    June 25, 2014 7:32 a.m.

    It is like the girl who demanded to be taken to senior prompt like a queen
    demanding perks like what Texas was given by Big-12...only to find out Big-12
    did not even want it.
    Then now, the girl after not being asked to the prompt by any major conference
    is willing go to the prompt at any price (and may be willing to do anything

  • UT4Big12 HOUSTON, TX
    June 24, 2014 8:31 p.m.


    I agree.

    The Big 12 will not invite BYU no matter how hopeful BYU coaches and fans may be at this point.

    The conference is happy at 10. If the conference is ever persuaded to expand in the future, it will certainly be an eastern expansion. This is not rocket science folks.

    Does BYU deserve to be in a Power 5 Conference? Perhaps. Will it ever happen? Not likely.

  • VegasUte Las Vegas, NV
    June 24, 2014 1:39 p.m.

    Nice article on Travis Wilson DN - oh wait ......

  • toosmartforyou Farmington, UT
    June 24, 2014 1:22 p.m.

    Well, Xam, Utah is also the one who has the least amount of championships in track and field, baseball, etc. while in the WAC or MWC or PAC. They have zero national championships in football, zero Heisman Trophy winners, and have missed bowl games the last two years. As they say, they're "on a run" only it's downhill. When did they win those two BCS games, again, and who did they play? I've forgotten, just like everybody else.

    The only reason Utah was invited is because they needed 12 teams and even lowly Colorado was invited before U. They even greased the schedule for U to be in the first PAC 12 Championship game and U promptly lost to the worst road team in America at the time, at home, with Norm C as OC. Colossal failure, like the year UNLV beat U 0 - 27.

    Will Utah get to a bowl game this year? Probably not. Then Dr. Hill will need to make a coaching change. U needed the PAC 12 and the PAC 12 needed U to be #12 of 12, which you are. Everyone should be happy, even as they snicker about how non-competitive U are.

  • SEC Rules Seminole, FL
    June 24, 2014 1:16 p.m.

    @ Chris B.

    Stop worrying about BYU and start worrying about your permanent residence in the basement of the PAC 12.

  • VegasUte Las Vegas, NV
    June 24, 2014 1:13 p.m.


    I propose that Bronco uses that motto on his next batch of t-shirts.

  • Jeremy234 SLC, UT
    June 24, 2014 10:27 a.m.

    BYU's moto: "We're amazing and nationally relevant, but somehow we're the only ones that see it."

  • Johnny Triumph American Fork, UT
    June 24, 2014 10:08 a.m.

    @LagoonFreek - I agree that the mt tv killed the old MWC. I agree with you that TCU would have taken a Big12 invitation no matter the MWC standing. But Utah NEVER would have turned down a PAC12 invitation just to stay in the MWC. Once Texas et al declined the PAC's invite that sealed it. The PAC had to grow and Utah was what was left that still could justify the research institution status the PAC's Presidents wanted. Utah had made up its mind that it was better than the MWC and its member schools. BYU was left hanging and did what they had to do. Was it ideal? No. Is it permanent, probably not (if an ESPN deal isn't renewed then BYU is really out of it and will have to join a mid-major, which probably explains the ramp up in talk of joining a conference now, can't leave that to the last year of the ESPN deal).

    If fans can step back and look at the facts and scenarios it gets a lot easier to understand why things are the way they are and what could happen in the future.

  • xam Provo, UT
    June 24, 2014 9:18 a.m.

    @Rockarolla "The Utes are the Joke of the PAC"

    Must be tough constantly losing to a joke program, eh rockarolla?

  • xam Provo, UT
    June 24, 2014 9:10 a.m.

    @JinaYi87 "Believe me when I say that if I hadn't lived in Utah for a bit I would be fuzzy on the difference between UU and USU"

    Hey Jina, Utah is the one that owns BYU in football, won two BCS bowl games in the last decade and been to multiple final fours in hoops.

  • JDL Magna, UT
    June 24, 2014 8:14 a.m.

    @ Brave sir Robin

    Give us fact and not your continual false narrative that BYU told the Big12 to take a hike. Tom Holmoe has many times put that baby to bed but you insist on perpetuating an untruth that takes away any and all credibility of anything you post.

  • Lagoonfreek Layton, UT
    June 24, 2014 7:33 a.m.

    The Mountain West Conference was a growing threat to the big six five or six years ago with just BYU, Utah, and TCU as the main threat. The big six conferences didn't want to have the possibility of having a so called mid major conference share a piece of the BCS pie. Had the Mountain West Conference restructured the TV rights with the schools and kept most games with ESPN, BYU and Utah would have stayed with Boise State joining up. I don't think TCU would have stayed primarily due to distance. The BCS people would have had no choice but to bring in the Mountain West Conference into the mix by this time.

  • Rockarolla West Jordan, UT
    June 23, 2014 10:38 p.m.

    Chris B. Onward and upward is the only place the Utes can go. The pac=12 numbers tell it all. Including all sports, the Utes are dead last in athletic performance. The Utes are the Joke of the PAC and they are the only ones who don't seem to know it!

  • gdog3finally West Jordan, Utah
    June 23, 2014 6:12 p.m.

    I don't understand BYU fans liking their independent status. I get that it's temporarily necessary for BYU (they needed out of the MWC). But if a P5 conference doesn't call, then what do you do if you won't go back to the MWC?

    I understand that BYU is the rare school that can make independence work. But then again, what is making it work even mean? Besides Notre Dame and Service Academy's, the other independent schools are insignificant programs. I think the answer to what I am asking that comes from most content BYU fans on this subject is that BYU makes independence work because of fan interest and TV exposure. hey, playing on ESPN is nice. But the bottom line for me as to why I would be dissatisfied with independence if I were a BYU fan is that exposure and access to watching games doesn't change the opponents on the schedule. And the majority of BYU's opponents are EXTREMELY weak.

    I hear BYU needs to win to get into a P5 conference. So do it. With their light schedule, if they beat Texas again then why can't BYU go undefeated?

  • 65TossPowerTrap Salmon, ID
    June 23, 2014 4:48 p.m.

    I know this is going to smack of heresy, but Mendenhall needs to stop talking and start winning. That last bowl game against Washington was a debacle. It wasn't hard to determine the team that practiced 15 times and the team that practiced 9 times. Until BYU starts winning the big games, i.e. Power-5 games, it will never achieve the respect it craves.

  • city planner BOUNTIFUL, UT
    June 23, 2014 4:15 p.m.

    WS Grad. -- Do not let one Ute fan (Chris B) represent the entire Ute Nation when he "thumps his chest". Most Ute fans are rational in knowing that we have not performed on the football field to receive winning results like we have hoped, thus it is frustrating. Humbly, most Ute fans are looking for improvement each year and hoping our student athletes in key positions do not have serious injuries that jeopardize the remaining season.

    Our first year in the PAC12 showed that we can compete in the PAC12 when we went 8-5 with a bowl win. We will eventually get back to that level or higher if the last four years of recruiting falls into place and our student athletes do not sustain major injuries during the season.

  • Big J Bountiful, UT
    June 23, 2014 4:02 p.m.

    Although it is in the realm of possibilities, I do not think BYU will ever get a P5 invite. If you look at other schools that are mid majors who could bring better market presence than BYU you will see my point. San Diego State comes to mind.

    I am glad BYU is finally admitting that competition wise, going independent was a big blunder. They desperately need a conference, any conference. The big problem with having no conference is once you lose once, your season is done. The bigger problem is if you happen to schedule better programs, you can pretty much count most of those as losses. If you pad your schedule with lesser talent everyone views that and the W/L record means nothing.

    Go Utes!

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    June 23, 2014 3:50 p.m.

    Weber State Graduate:

    "every conference needs a 'worthy' doormat they can beat up on every year to pad their records"

    What a frantic and emotional thing to say. If that were true -- that conferences stand on the lookout for a way to weaken the brand of their leagues -- then the Y would have been invited years ago, and the SEC would have been poaching the Sun Belt and Missouri Valley conferences for teams like Texas State and Missouri State rather than A&M and Mizzou.

  • Farid @ Pocatello Pocatello, ID
    June 23, 2014 3:24 p.m.

    1. Yes, I think the football team could survive in a "big" conference.
    2. Yes, if BYU were to move to a "big" conference, the Big-12 makes the most sense.

    That said ....

    1. Look at Utah. What is the (non economic)value in such a move? At least Utah can recruit better players, but BYU gets the vast majority of LDS players they want. All they can do is get better non-LDS players. Ask Gary Crowton how that went.

    2. Big fish in little pond or little fish in big pond? I'd much rather go 9-4 or 10-3 every year instead of being a 6-6 "big" conference team.

    I have seen every BYU game (in one form or another) since 1979. We've already seen the zenith of the program. We're as good as we're going to be.

    Boise State has done a lot of good things out of the WAC and later the Mountain West Conference. The problem is that Bronco has raised expectations of BYU football but not its talent. Under LaVell, A WAC championship was a golden ticket.

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    June 23, 2014 3:16 p.m.


    "It will all come toghether when the timing is right."

    Unfortunately for BYU and her fans, the right timing was two years ago. That's when BYU told the Big 12 to take a hike. History will look back at that decision as possibly the most colossal mistake in the history of college athletics.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    June 23, 2014 3:03 p.m.

    Nope. We love independence. It's been fun and profitable.

  • rlsintx Plano, TX
    June 23, 2014 2:56 p.m.

    I've sat in the stands more at OU, U Mich, AL, AU and tOSU than I have at BYU. BYU is not in that league by the depth of it's athletes alone. Forget knocking off a team once in a while, I'm talking about week-in, week-out. Neither is Utah, and they're going to keep proving it.

    Independence is just the right situation for BYU; I think they've in their sweet spot and should give it a full decade to let things get right and find a stride.

  • redthunder Ogden, UT
    June 23, 2014 2:27 p.m.

    "Running back Jamaal Williams said the Cougars want to be “the best team in the world” before amending that to “best in the nation.”

    How cute.


    3rd in the conference? How do you figure? It wasn't all that long ago that TCU, a team that is currently struggling, ate BYU's lunch year after year. Oklahoma State, Tech, WVU, Kansas State, Baylor, TCU all mop the floor with the Cougars. BYU beats Kansas and Iowa State. Thanks for the laugh though.

  • Weber State Graduate Clearfield, UT
    June 23, 2014 2:26 p.m.

    "Too bad every big time conference is well aware byu wants to be included and no one thinks they are worthy."

    Perhaps so...every conference needs a "worthy" doormat they can beat up on every year to pad their records. Colorado and Utah appeared to fit the "worthy" criteria, thus the invitation to join the PAC.

    I don't particularly care for BYU, but Utah's incessant chest thumping about being "prestigious" is pretty amusing considering their inability to compete against their "worthy" PAC brothers...even with the millions of dollars that have been flowing into the Ute athletic budget from the bowl games these brothers participate in while the Utes cheer them on from the comfort of their homes.

  • Copacetic Logan, UT
    June 23, 2014 2:21 p.m.

    @ Chris B:

    Once again you naively take it upon yourself to try to speak not only for Utah's PAC12 conference, but for every other P5 conference out there. Ridiculous. There are many other considerations to take into account besides whether BYU is worthy or not. Conveniently, you neglected to mention any of those considerations.

    Look at BYU's record regarding the Big12 over their recent history. They are 5-1. Definitely worthy.
    What is Utah's conference record since joining the PAC12? Definitely not worthy.

    BYU has owned Utah in basketball over the past decade. It doesn't bode well for you to claim that Utah is being owned by an "unworthy" program. It would be in Ute fans best interest to promote BYU's worthiness. It would then make their wins over BYU more meaningful.

    My point is, off-the-cuff judgments like yours don't add to the dialog in a positive way. You are only promoting divisiveness and perhaps even displaying some ignorance of the situation. Let's try harder to keep local bias out of the argument.

    Like TooSmartForYou pointed out... it will definitely come together when the timing is right. And so it will.

  • FatMan86 West Jordan, UT
    June 23, 2014 2:20 p.m.

    Chris B,

    You are right, BYU is a definitely a Mid Major, and is clearly unwanted by the major conferences. That won't change any time soon, and likely won't change ever.

    Utah still plays like a Mid Major despite being on the inside now. They still recruit largely Mid Major talent. The difference is the size of their TV pay checks. Utah clearly wins in that department.

    Unfortunately neither school has truly moved to the next level. As such the Oregon's, Ohio St's, and Florida St's of the world consider both of these Utah schools irrelevant in the aggregate discussion. Neither school is getting the kind of respect nationally that their fan bases seem to be demanding.

    That won't change until both schools are winning consistently.

  • JinaYi87 Norman, OK
    June 23, 2014 2:18 p.m.

    BYU would be a good addition to the Big 12, regardless of what our commissioner thinks. I think the folks at OU would love having BYU (Even though you beat us in 2009........). I for one would much rather see OU play BYU than play Kansas or ISU. BYU would bring a legit opponent, despite what some seem to think.

    Not sure why these articles attract Utah University trolls in such large droves. Believe me when I say that if I hadn't lived in Utah for a bit I would be fuzzy on the difference between UU and USU. I was talking to my friend from back East and he honestly thought that USU was the UU (And the eye test on record perpetuates this).

  • Justmythoughts Provo, UT
    June 23, 2014 2:12 p.m.


    I agree! Good Post!

  • Taysom4Heisman Heber City, UT
    June 23, 2014 2:08 p.m.

    @Chris B

    I think it's hilarious that you always say utah is going "onward and upward to Pac-12 glory" and say BYU is a lowly mid-major, but you try to make a big deal over utah beating BYU the last few years. You can't have all of these things at the same time.

    One of these things has to be true:

    -utah is not nearly as good as you make them out to be.
    -BYU is much better than you make them out to be.

    I would say it's a combination of both, but if utah was actually some elite program and BYU was just a mid-major, your claim to fame wouldn't be that utah has beaten BYU, or that utah is in the Pac-12 and BYU isn't.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    June 23, 2014 1:45 p.m.

    There is no question that BYU is a program worthy of inclusion in a P5 conference, the question is whether or not any of those conferences want any more schools? Realistically the Big 12 is the only one that would be a good fit for BYU, and they seem content at 10 schools. So what can BYU do? Be the best available school for expansion if/when the Big 12 decides to grow.

    If/when BYU gets an invite to the Big 12, there will definitely be growing pains. BYU is not on par with Texas and Oklahoma and would likely be battling for 3rd place most seasons in the Big 12. Fortunately, however, the Big 12 top to bottom isn't as strong as some of the other P5 conferences so BYU would likely never be a conference bottom dweller. I think Bronco and Holmoe or doing this right by saying/inferring "we like where we're at... but we'd rather be in the Big 12."

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    June 23, 2014 1:29 p.m.

    of course they would.

    Too bad every big time conference is well aware byu wants to be included and no one thinks they are worthy.

    The SEC, ACC, Pac 12, Big 12(with only 10 teams because no other teams are worthy) and Big 10 all came to the same conclusion: byu is a mid major because they deserve to be a mid major

  • Johnny Triumph American Fork, UT
    June 23, 2014 1:01 p.m.

    BYU was liberated in 2011, free from the mess of the MWC. The poor tv contract with theMt and being left behind by Utah and TCU helped BYU make the decision, and the ESPN contract made it possible. It was very liberating back then. And while things could be much worse for BYU they certainly could also be improved. But the WCC is a good, albeit temporary, fit for the bulk of BYU sports so BYU is not in a huge rush to join a conference. BYU has done a great job positioning itself for the future; football independence might not be the best place but BYU is poised for greatness in the future!

  • toosmartforyou Farmington, UT
    June 23, 2014 12:55 p.m.

    It will all come toghether when the timing is right.