Accepting the IRS's explanation of the hard drive crash(es) requires a
"willful suspension of disbelief"!
Another fake scandal drummed up by Fox News. The fact is, all political
non-profits should be (and are) open to scrutiny. Of the groups that were
looked at only a few with "liberal" objectives were rejected for the
status. Please stop crying victimization in these non-serious controversy. It
just makes you look bad.
One of Churchill's advisors noted that morally indefensible actions are
usually politically inept. Mr. Obama and his minions should heed that advice.
real maverick,If you're ok with the missing IRS emails, why
aren't you ok with the AG missing emails?Why the double
standard?Why the hypocrisy?
We can only hope. Bureaucratic inertia is the flaw in governments from America
to Zambia. The status quo is clearly unacceptable.
1aggie: "...They turned over 67,000 emails."What do you want
to bet that a big part of those emails turned over were ads for Viagra?This is a typical tactic by someone stonewalling an investigation. Turn over
lots of unrelated documents while hiding all the smoking guns and then claim by
the sheer volume of stuff that you are cooperating.I don't care
if they turned over 67 million emails and 2 billion documents. If they are
hiding all the relevent ones, they are not following the law.
Back in 2011 when her computer crashed, Lois Lerner sought help recovering the
e-mails, saying some e-mails are "irreplaceable." But, she was informed
in Aug. 2011 that they were unable to recover the e-mails, long before the IRS
scandal broke in 2013.Since congressional leaders have called for
the e-mail record, the IRS has spent time trying to retrieve/reconstruct e-mails
by pulling them from other employee's accounts. They turned over 67,000
emails. BTWWhen 22 million of Bush e-mails went missing during
the Valerie Plame incident, Darrell Issa was quick to attribute the loss of
e-mails to IBM.
"In America, the absence of honest passion is a distinguishing feature of
both professional wrestling and politics." - Murray KemptonI'm sure if Bobby were still in the U.S. Senate we could count on him to
sit there and do nothing about the IRS scandal, and to look reasonable and
distinguished while doing it.He wouldn't want to find himself
blacklisted by all the proper and fabulous Washington soirees, after all.
"There are two "sides" of every email, the sender and the recipient.
Is the government telling us that every recipient's computer had a crashed
hard drive at the very instant that the IRS computer supposedly went
down?'Mike... there are lots of secure systems that do not
allow you to make copies of emails on your local disk. This is common a common
practice in many large organizations so that they can protect assets from
walking out the door on a thumb drive.But yes, the "senders"
who were outside of the IRS would still have their copies, but that would mean
you knew who to ask for copies of those emails. An enormous task. If the
transactions logs are gone too... almost an impossible task. Some of these
emails if they were enter agency can be recovered, but likely the ones of
interest are intra-agency. The problem Bennett is pointing out here is if
short cuts were being made - i.e. number of backup copies being archived, then
this is yet another issue, and a hinderance to transparency.
Bob, let me get this straight. Ten days after a request for the emails, all the
emails just from the requested time period disappear. You're using this for
a call to spend more money on IT. I'd like to say I'm shocked, but
sadly, I believe this truly is your world view: The only fix for bad government
is more government.Want to know what would have occurred if there
had been better "IT systems" in place. Whomever ordered the deletion
would have just had to do a more thorough job (because you can be sure there
already were several places where deletions had to happen). Oh, but wait, had
that happened, surely a whistleblower would have come forth to shine light on
the crime. Yeah, right. And be tormented or go to prison for the rest of their
life... (Edmonds, Ellsburg, Whitacre, Manning, Snowden)
There are two "sides" of every email, the sender and the recipient. Is
the government telling us that every recipient's computer had a crashed
hard drive at the very instant that the IRS computer supposedly went down?Just how gullible does Obama think we are?
The IRS is not the only Fed agency with an archaic IT system. Much of the
aggression directed at a few Phoenix VA officials might just as well be directed
at those who failed to ensure the Department of Veterans Affairs had in place a
decent IT system. VA officials, it seems, were forced to make do with the
antiquated systems they had and look where that got us. If there is a problem in
42 VA offices around the country then it seems to me that there is a bit of
scapegoating going on to dump 2 or 3 Phoenix VA officers as a quick fix to get
the media and country to think the problem has been resolved. Someone needs to
own up to the real systemic problems nation-wide, not just take it out on a few
whipping boys/girls in Phoenix. But owning up to the real issue would not help
anyone in the upcoming elections, would it? Business as usual in D.C.
Bush spent how many $Hundreds of Billions to create the largest super-computer
and data system on the planet to spy on America's citizens, But
somehow forgot to upgrade the e-mail computers at the IRS?Another
reason why I will NEVER trust another Republican.
JoeCapitalist2Orem, UT Maybe he still has those drives and
could produce them in the event of a court order.2:39 p.m. June 23,
2014=========== Sure, Just like not producing his
tax returns like his own Father George did and every other presidential
candidate has done for the last 50 years helped cost him the Presidency.Nothing to hide...
10CCWhat did Romney's actions as governor have anything to do
with this situation?Was Romney's administration suspected as
using government resources to punish his enemies? Did he collude with tax
authorities to audit or harass people he did not like? Was he under
investigation for anything?Taking the drives with him does not mean
he was trying to hide something from an investigative body. Maybe he still has
those drives and could produce them in the event of a court order.
The archaic computer systems in the Fed Govmt have caused problems in the VA
that no one is willing to admit when they are so quick to want to blame a few
JoeCapitalist2:What is your explanation for Romney's removal of
hard drives on his way out of office in Massachusetts?I can
anticipate a couple of different responses:1. It is a clear
violation of the general concept of transparency in government.2. It
was not illegal, so therefore nothing was done wrong.If your answer
is close to #2, this means you believe in the rule of law, which means you
should advocate that we let the process play out, here.I'm in
Utah, I have no idea if this was a carefully planned surgery of damaging
information, ala Nixon.I *can* tell you as part of an organization
that gets federal grants - for healthcare research - that the budget cutbacks
enacted are not imaginary, and it's not preposterous to me that the types
of breakdowns in technology and process may have occurred. I'm a IT
Manager and I'm increasingly taking shortcuts I would never recommend. But if the money is short, you do the best you can. I'm sure the
Whitehouse doesn't appreciate yet more fodder for eroding support from the
If Richard Nixon had been backed by the 2014 Democratic caucus rather than the
1974 Republican caucus, he never would have had to resign. They would have
closed ranks as tightly around Their Man as the current crew is closing ranks
now.The disappearance of just those potentially incriminating
e-mails, at just that time, is an extraordinary coincidence. Those require
extraordinary evidence. Any person who does not want a special prosecutor is
not a person for whom truth matters more than party.
Bob Bennett ran for Senate in 1992 on a pledge to make the 1040 Form the size of
a post card. How did that turn out?
Look at the picture... this is the literal definition of "looking down your
nose at people".She thinks she's above us, and
shouldn't have to answer to the people (but she will fall on her sward for
her party).IMO we need LESS people like this in Government... at ALL
levels.More common people should run for office. And more ccmon
people should be appointed to positions like this. Then they would feel
responsible to the PEOPLE... not the party.
" that similar events will happen again unless Congress starts providing the
money and driving the change that will impact bureaucratic inertia and bring the
government’s IT systems into the 21st century."The problem
isn't money - but organizational inertia is the problem. I am working with
several DoD accounts right now on a modernization project, and the
structural/political walls even within the branches themselves would make your
head spin. There needs to be huge structural changes in government IT.. not
just money. Money in my opinion is the least of the issues."
Apparently, they never thought anyone would have the power to actually force
them to hand over the evidence." You know... I am a skeptic on this issue
as well... but I do not believe for a second anyone thought someone could not
request this data. They aren't that stupid, and most are career people who
don't care which administration is in. I get that a server drive could
have failed... I understand also sometimes backups are bad. I've seen it
before. Timing though is the thing that makes this one hard to digest. Could
have happened... just hard to understand systems this bad.
"unless Congress starts providing the money and driving the change that will
impact bureaucratic inertia and bring the government’s IT systems into the
21st century. That means passing appropriations bills that dictate specifics as
well as the total, which is how things used to be done."This
will not work. Just as Obama refused to enforce the Defense of Marriage act,
because he disagreed with it; so he will refuse to make changes here. It is
just too convenient to declare that a hard drive crashed when he would otherwise
get caught with his hand in the cookie jar.Second item:The 5th amendment is there to prevent the government from abusing the people,
not to protect government officials from the people. I propose limiting the 5th
amendment. We should be able to force government officials to testify, under
oath, with a polygraph attached. A democracy cannot survive if the people
don't know what their government is doing to them.
If repubs hate the emails that went missing at the IRS then they must have
really hated the emails that went missing at our very own AG's office.Why the double standard repubs?
10CC: "Use the phone, use text messaging (for now), use smoke signals... if
you use email and it is used against you, you're an idiot."Well, it appears that IRS officials and the Obama administration used email to
do something very wrong. Apparently, they never thought anyone would have the
power to actually force them to hand over the evidence. Once they figured out it
could actually come to light, they had to think of any and every possible excuse
about why they could not produce the emails.The excuses so far (hard
drive crashes, recycled hard drives, server backups automatically purged) are
only plausable to their supporters (many on this forum). Everyone else who has
even an ounce of impartiality sees it for the ruse that it is.Roland
and "not here":Other administrations (e.g. Nixon) tried
similar deplorable things, but suggesting that the current situation is OK
because others have done bad things is merely a deflection.
The Government is being run by cunning men who aspire for power and riches.
They are self indulgent and don't care.The fact that they
exempt themselves from all the junk laws they pass is evidence of this.Someday they will all stand accountable.
What, they can't send a request in to NSA to get a copy?
The IRS is a creature of Congress. Congress made the tax law monstrously complex
to administer but will not give the IRS the resources to keep IT systems
updated. Congress is to blame, as Mr. Bennett should know.
Hmmm -- What makes us think we can trust Republicans to find a few
missing e-mails in cyber space, when they couldn't even a
single physical, tangible, extremely deadly Weapon of Mass Destruction before
launching a full on invasion of a soverneign, foreign nation?GOP
credibility is at an all time low...
And why is there not all this upset when the Utah AG lost all his E-Mail and
texts? Or is it, this nothing but about the party and the man that's in
charge right now? P.s Oh and how about those on In your own Government saying
that to much money has been spent and the investigation needed to stop? Were is
your out rage over that? Please reply and looking forward to it.
I would hope that the IRS is trerated with as much courtesy and respect as they
treat us. that would be NONE!
I think Bob's onto something here. The Republicans expect government
agencies to upgrade their IT practices at the same time they cut their budgets.
Of course, some libertarians, like at least one commenter on this page, would
rather see the federal government simply disappear--until, of course, they
themselves are in need and are upset because government didn't take care of
them. Oh the hypocrisy.
Anyone who has been the target of litigation or a formal investigation knows
that email is "discoverable", it can absolutely be used against you in
an investigation or lawsuit.Bill Gates learned this lesson the hard
way, and formulated a policy in Microsoft to specifically *not* back up email
systems, and to have the "Empty Items" purged daily.In my
organization we've been advised to never use email for any kind of
sensitive information. Use the phone, use text messaging (for now), use smoke
signals... if you use email and it is used against you, you're an idiot.For those conservatives who hammer the IRS as intentionally neglecting
email backups, how do you explain Mitt Romney removing all the hard drives from
systems as he was concluding his term as Massachusett's Governor?
Technically, that was legal, there was no law against it. Maybe we
need to pass a Constitutional Amendment that compels all levels of government to
only use email for communications, and to back them up properly, with criminal
charges resulting if they don't.
Hey, for those questioning "mistake or deliberate:" Turns out that the
IRS had a private company that they paid to back up emails, etc. Only weeks
after Lois Lerner's emails "Disappeared" that contract was not
renewed. Too bad the IRS hasn't volunteered the existence of their
contract with this company. Oh, this company is run by an Obama
campaign worker........., Sonasoft. Here's the link: here.
I have no doubt that if the IRS officials wanted to find those emails, they
could do it in a New York Minute. The stonewalling of this and other
investigations is amazing. All I can say is that the evidence must be really,
really bad to warrant this blatant of a cover-up.The hard drive
crash (if there really was one) is a convenient excuse to pretend that this
means all those incriminating emails are "lost forever". If all the
emails really are gone, then the only question is: Did those who destroyed them
cover all their tracks? Each email has at least two copies (one at the
sender's end, the other at the recipient's).Someone within
the organization would be aware of the cover-up and could blow the whistle. It
is very difficult to do anything electronically without leaving some kind of
evidence behind. The truth will most likely eventually come out. The only
question is: can that moment be delayed long enough for either the next election
or for the voters to no longer care?
I long for justice for all Americans, even for those in service to the American
people by being a part of government. If a person uses the Constitutional
protection to refuse to testify against themselves, which would even include
e-mails, they should not be treated as criminals. When a government
official or other highly regarded person makes a charge against another, along
with the words "I believe, I think, my opinion, I feel", or any other
disclaimer in the Press or any other public media, it should be regarded as an
actual charge of the crime and require all the protections granted by our
Constitution.If such a person upon making criminal charges against
another, fails to bring those charges in a court of law, he should be prosecuted
to the fullest extent of the law for making false charges. I do not
believe that freedom of speech and the Press was intended to allow people to lie
and not be accountable.
Good commonsense piece. Which means it will be rejected in Washington.I'd also like to remind anyone that thinks this is a great Obama
conspiracy of the 22 millions emails that went missing during the Bush
So Senators Cruz and Lee were out of line for "shutting down the
government" because they were opposed to the never ending "omnibus"
spending bills that the President insists Congress has to pass? Oh, those awful
conservatives! It's Congress' own fault for essentially giving up
their Constitutional prerogative to control how Federal money is
appropriated. I have a better solution than Mr Bennett for dealing with
the IRS though. It has to be eliminated. We know the IRS improperly targeted
conservative groups. We know confidential tax information was released. We know
that in 2008 98% of political donations by IRS employees went to Democrats. We
know that the IRS is the most feared agency in America. Obviously the
Federal Government needs a revenue collection agency but we have to start from
scratch. The current IRS is obviously corrupt. We have to either have a flat tax
or a fair tax and a new, and a much smaller and less intimidating revenue agency
to replace the current IRS.