Business rights

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  • Kora Cedar Hills, UT
    June 18, 2014 9:36 a.m.

    Frozen Fractals- So you are advocating against small business yourself as you state that people need Unions to get higher wages in order to not be dependent on government and that there are no Unions in small business, so thusly small business employees must be suffering due to lack of unions, so they must be bad. And as you pointed out, Unions don't care about the people, only the dues.
    Also when did GM and Chrysler become banks, as they were deemed "too big to fail"?

    Esquire- It started under Bush, but look who were the primary endorsers were, Democrats, including Obama. Most Republicans opposed. GM went bankrupt anyways.

    LDS Liberal- Unions come about now to make money. Employees were not killing themselves at VW in Tennessee, but the Union tried to jump in and take some money. Unions tried to force people who take care of sick loved ones in Michigan to join and pay dues. Unions protect bad employees more than good ones, because they are the ones who usually get fired. They protected Chrysler workers who were drinking and smoking pot on their lunch.

    Maverick/Ultra- the Citizens United case established businesses have Constitutional rights.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    June 17, 2014 11:58 p.m.

    Where in the Constitution are business rights defined?

    If it isn't in the Constitution then it doesn't exist. Stop perverting the Constitution. The right loves to trample the constitution for big business to steal the wealth of the working class.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    June 17, 2014 7:58 p.m.

    No, Kora, Reagan and Capitalism played only very, very small roles in killing the Soviet Union. Virtually all credit needs to be given where it belongs, with a Polish Pope and a bunch of very courageous Polish, Czech, Hungarian and other eastern European labor union members.

    You must be reading one of the Texas Conservative Approved textbooks of American Revised History.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    June 17, 2014 7:52 p.m.

    Kora, the bank bailout was under Bush. Talk to Henry Paulson if you don't believe me.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 17, 2014 7:36 p.m.

    2 bits.

    Of all the words I have looked up in the dictionary, the word "rights" has the greatest number of singularly different meanings. The rights that individuals, businesses, or organizations have that they bought, traded or stolen, are not the same things as the rights given to humans just by being human. The rights that are created, traded and exchanged between individuals or organizations apply only to particular specified entities and do not extend to the generalized entity of that name.

    Further, all the rights that we consider human rights, civil rights, and even God given rights are provided for in our Constitution or in the code of law that is a further amplification or limitation of our Constitution.

    The generalized institution of "business" is not an entity itself, it is the system that people in a society have chosen provide an orderly sharing of the benefits and the liabilities of the society. The rules are not fixed and change as needed by the society, although sometimes not as rapidly as they should.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    June 17, 2014 6:09 p.m.

    I'm sorry --

    I'm scratching my head,
    Googling the Web,
    and I can not seem to find a SINGLE instance where a Union is keeping a Small Business from forming, or failing.

    Not ONE!

    Unions only come about when workers are killing themselves,
    and seeing the fruits of their labors going to a few who do nothing.

    They Organize,
    and together go out on strike - [i.e., stop doing the producing],
    until they get a better share of what they have done.

    Unions are people.

    But Republicans think only Boards of Corporation are the only entities allowed to be considered "people".

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    June 17, 2014 4:59 p.m.

    So the next time a business pollutes a river, sells an (unknown to the public) unsafe product, or otherwise damages society in a whole host of ways any history book covering the industrial revolution will show, your solution is to simply stop buying their products?

    OK, I guess it can work in theory assuming this buying boycott can overcome their false advertising budget or (in the case of the river) play on whatever shred of humanity they may have left.

    This may not work in all (or even most) cases given a couple simple truisms.

    1st, as most modern business schools will tell you, businesses exist for one purpose – to increase shareholder value. I don’t recall ever hearing anything about rivers.

    2nd, as Upton Sinclair pointed out during the Gilded Age – “it is difficult to get a man to understand something (like his product might be harmful) when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 17, 2014 4:30 p.m.


    Re: "There are no such things as business rights"....

    Well, that's not totally true. Businesses have rights. That's what contracts and such are all about (the rights of the business and customers). There's a whole branch of law regarding the rights and responsibilities of businesses. My daughter-in-law is going into business law, they have rights.

    Maybe you're thinking all "Rights" are spelled out in the Bill of Rights.... Well, if you are thinking that... you would be wrong. Those are the God-given "inalienable-rights". But that's not all the rights that exist.

    There are rights outside the "Bill or Rights" the government gives us (the right to drive, get married, traffic laws, etc). All rights are not outlined in the Constitution OR the Bill of Rights (not same thing).

    The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution. It is the name given to the first ten amendments (or changes) to the Constitution. The Bill of Rights limits the powers of the Federal government and protects the rights of all citizens. But there ARE other rights, and some of them protect businesses (from people who would steal from them).

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 17, 2014 2:28 p.m.

    The current status of employees of private business and any other organization that operates in a business like manner, is that of a voluntary part time slave.

    In order to become an employee an individual must give up many of his rights and freedoms to the whims of an employer. Typically these would include the time of the employment, start, stop and duration. Next would be the place of employment, location, conditions, and access. Procedures, process and amount, and in some cases even control of the employee's actions after the work period.

    Although we've come a long way from the ancient slavery where the right to life was a given, we still have a long way to go.

    It is unlikely the employer will give up the "master" status so we must depend on and defend workers unions and especially that really big one that goes by the initials USA.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 17, 2014 1:42 p.m.

    There are no such things as business rights. They don't exist in our national Constitution and they are not written or posted in any media. Only people have rights, they are secured and specified in writing in our Constitution and the code of laws passed by the government of the United States of America.

    Business operations can exist only by permission of the government of the place where the business operation is to operated and within the rules specified by the government of the United States of America. The rules and regulations of either the governments may change according to the desires of people or their government.

    Business is the child of society and like an employee of private business operations, it must abide by the rules of its employer (society) or quit.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    June 17, 2014 1:12 p.m.

    I don't think much of what you're upset about is actually happening.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    June 17, 2014 12:39 p.m.

    "If you kill the small business, the employees no longer have a job, and unionization kills small businesses. "

    I can't think of a single small business with a union, they typically only go with organizing large workforces. (Think of it this way: 10 workers worth of union dues just isn't worth it from the union's perspective).

    "Dems are content to have more people dependent on the government."

    A union that negotiates higher wages or health benefits etc is actually making workers less dependent on the gov't to fill in gaps if they otherwise didn't make enough to get by.

    "Remember, the Dems are the party of "too Big to Fail". "

    If Dems had their way the big banks would be regulated to the point that they would no longer be too big to fail. If you let conglomerates that huge fail we would've had a Great Depression rather than a bad recession. Dems want to keep them from getting that huge.

  • Kora Cedar Hills, UT
    June 17, 2014 12:03 p.m.

    one old man- People are denied jobs everyday if they refuse to pay the Unions. That is a fact. We have closed shops in the US that require Union membership, or at a minimum give some funds to the union to work there. How is that right to deny a job if you won't give the union money?

    Open Minded- Liberals hate to admit it, but Capitalism and Reagan were the greatest influence in the downfall of Communism. FYI, The Bolsheviks started essentially as a Union. Union ideology with "workers rights" was the backbone of their organization with the Revolution being the "Workers Revolution". A Union played a part in Poland but was not the primary cause for the downfall.

    These rants against income inequality, private business being bad, and workers not receiving fair pay and being treated fairly are very similar to how Communism started. The people leading the cause all happen to be at the top of the income ladder, many higher than those they criticize. They expect to be the ones in power like Castro and Lenin, and guess where the rest end up.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 17, 2014 12:00 p.m.


    Re: "Are richies like the Koch family and Walton family the only ones who get to have rights and enjoy the prosperity of this country"?

    No... there's also the Kennedy family, and the Heinz/Kerry family, rich lawyers like John Edwards, and the Gore family...


    @one old man,

    I don't care if you THINK it's not true. Because I know that it is (unless my good friend lied to me about what happened to her).

    I could give you more details so you could contact her directly, but this is not the place. I don't know about the online story you are talking about, but this happened to a person in my ward, right here in Utah.

    I can't prove that the Union refusal was the reason they let her go, it could have been something else. But I can prove that she was hired by the USPS, and let go the day after the heated discussion about joining the Union.

    If it was because of her remarks about the Union... there's something wrong with that. Union membership should not be a REQUIREMENT for employment (especially a REQUIREMENT for government employment).

  • Stormwalker Cleveland , OH
    June 17, 2014 11:54 a.m.

    The most recent republican presidential candidate ran a company that helped dismantle medium-sized companies and ship jobs overseas. The owner and other key players in the company made a great deal of money. The workers… Didn't do so well.

  • Kora Cedar Hills, UT
    June 17, 2014 11:30 a.m.

    Esquire- Who is the real party of Big Business. Remember, the Dems are the party of "too Big to Fail". Only Big businesses are too big to fail, not small business. The dems had no interest in helping them because they are not full of donating big Unions like GM and Chrysler. The Dems have never supported cutting regulations so that it would be easier for small businesses to start and thrive. They support heavy handed regulations that only big businesses can wade through.

    At one point Unions did good work, now all they do is protect the indolent, and bad employees, and fund Democratic campaigns. Hence the VA can't fire anybody and we see the results. Unions are more a political organization now than anything else. As for worker safety, now they actually protect workers who are unsafe and help them keep their jobs where they put people at risk.

    One Old Man- If you kill the small business, the employees no longer have a job, and unionization kills small businesses. They can't afford it. The fact is, only Republicans are looking out for workers. Dems are content to have more people dependent on the government.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    June 17, 2014 11:21 a.m.

    2bits -- why do I think the story about your postal worker is simply not true? Could it be because I've heard it before (in a couple of internet emails from unknown sources) and that it has been repeatedly debunked by fact checkers?

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    June 17, 2014 11:20 a.m.

    25 years go,
    Labor UNIONS defeated Communism.

    American Capitalists defend, support, invest, and fund it.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    June 17, 2014 11:12 a.m.

    We live in a time of great uncertainty and discord caused by the right-wing's attacks on American workers. This is especially true when it comes to attacks on the right to collective bargaining.

    The irrefutable fact is that most businesses are made successful and profitable by individuals who worked hard to help business owners build those businesses from nothing. The Republicans' attacks on businesses are really nothing more than attacks on small business owners as they attempt to destroy our working class.

    The Republicans need to quit attacking small business employees. Pretty soon, they will have completely destroyed the incentive to work at all. Who will they tax when there are no more workers?

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    June 17, 2014 11:07 a.m.

    I am deeply disappointed that so many are so willing to take away individual rights and freedoms and opportunity for better lives from those hard working Americans who do the labor that produces the products of our businesses.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 17, 2014 10:25 a.m.

    "Today in America, unions have a secure place in our industrial life. Only a handful of reactionaries harbor the ugly thought of breaking unions and depriving working men and women of the right to join the union of their choice. I have no use for those -- regardless of their political party -- who hold some vain and foolish dream of spinning the clock back to days when organized labor was huddled, almost as a hapless mass. Only a fool would try to deprive working men and women of the right to join the union of their choice." —Dwight D. Eisenhower

    June 17, 2014 10:13 a.m.

    How dare the unions and the government get involved in business and mandate such things as safe workplaces, 8-hour days, 5-day work weeks, no child labor, fair pay, sick leave ... the list goes on.

    To quote a favorite bumper sticker: "Did you have a nice weekend? Thank the unions."

  • FreedomFighter41 Provo, UT
    June 17, 2014 10:12 a.m.

    Are richies like the Koch family and Walton family the only ones who get to have rights and enjoy the prosperity of this country? And the rest of us merely slaves to their gluttony?

    I miss the Republican Party that cared about small businesses, the working middle-class, and the poor.

    Imagine if Teddy Roosevelt and Abe Lincoln were alive today. They'd be labeled RINOs and attacked nonstop by Fox News and am radio. The right embraces Oligarchy while trampling the great works for democracy that Presidents Lincoln did Roosevelt accomplished.

    I never left the Republican Party. It left me.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    June 17, 2014 9:44 a.m.

    JCS: An irrefutable fact is that air is needed for human respiration. That "most businesses are owned by people who worked hard to build them from nothing" is not remotely an irrefutable fact. It is merely an opinion that you personally have and have generalized to the rest of mankind.

    Point of fact (not irrefutable if you can prove otherwise): Five of the ten richest people in America are named Walton, but only one of them ever worked for Wal-Mart. The rest are where they are due to Daddy Sam (now nearly 20 years in the grave) and the hard work of the one family member still pulling the wagon along with the hundreds of thousands of employees who insure its success in the future. Still...too bad they couldn't take a billion or two less and offer health insurance an a living wage to their employees so that the taxpayers wouldn't have to subsidize them with food stamps and medicaid.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 17, 2014 9:18 a.m.

    Government intervention into what job you CAN have and what job you CAN'T have is bad enough. But when Labor Unions can do that (and they aren't part of the government, but they act like they are)... it's even worse (IMO).

    A friend of mine recently got a job offer from the US Postal Service. She went through weeks of paid training and did well. She met with her HR person to get signed up for benefits and get started on the job. They told her about the Union, the dues, and how the Union would protect her. But her father had a bad experience with a Labor Union, and her husband had a similar experience. So she said she wasn't interested in joining the Union or having them take part of her pay check. The HR person told her again how much the Union would protect her if she ever got in trouble. She again said she wasn't interested. The next morning they told her she was fired (they gave no reason).

    That's not fair. You should get the job if you are qualified (no Union approval needed).

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    June 17, 2014 8:50 a.m.

    What are you talking about in this letter?

    There are no attacks on small business. But what is especially ironic is that any talk of shifting money from the centralized hands of the few, which would then foster growth of small business, are vigorously resisted by Republicans. Here's the lesson of the day: Republicans are the party of big business. They always have been in the past 100 years. They are not the party of small business. The Democrats are the party of small business. "In 1996, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives planned to eliminate the agency. It survived and went on to receive a record high budget in 2000 under Clinton. Renewed efforts by the Bush Administration to end the SBA loan program met congressional resistance, although the SBA's budget was repeatedly cut, and in 2004 certain expenditures were frozen. The Obama Administration has supported the SBA budget." So, please, let's be factual. The GOP is not the friend of small business.

  • FreedomFighter41 Provo, UT
    June 17, 2014 8:50 a.m.

    What about workers? What about consumers?

    Do they have any rights?

    Or are business owners the only protected class in this country that can treat people as poorly and unfairly as they want?

    Historically, this country has feared the tyranny of the government. However, today, I only see the tyranny of business.

  • John Charity Spring Back Home in Davis County, UT
    June 17, 2014 8:25 a.m.

    We live in a time of great uncertainty and discord caused by the left-wing's attacks on businesses. This is especially true when it comes to attacks on property rights.

    The irrefutable fact is that most businesses are owned by individuals who worked hard to build those businesses from nothing. The democrats' attacks on businesses are really nothing more than attacks on small business owners.

    The democrats need to quit attacking small business owners. Pretty soon, they will have completely destroyed the incentive to work at all. Who will they tax when there are no more workers?

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    June 17, 2014 7:03 a.m.

    And I'm deeply disappointed that 1% owns 80% of everything the 99% produce...

    I'm also disappointed that many of those 1% offloaded and outsourced 50% of America's former GDP to Communists.

    Just trying to keep things in their proper perspective, that's all...

  • Bob K Davis, CA
    June 17, 2014 2:23 a.m.


    It seems awfully easy for a member of the majority to say that folks who disagree with a business should go elsewhere.

    It seems awfully forgetful to put aside what unions accomplished -- ending child labor, decent lunch breaks, safe working conditions, and so much more.

    I think this is another letter about wedding cakes. You know, only 2 bakers got in trouble for breaking the law by refusing to make cakes, and both of them created their own problem by acting if their religious views were better than the customers' views.