@ Uteology - East Salt Lake City, Utah - "@Dan Maloy So, you're trying
to tell us that there is absolutely zero discrimination against non-LDS
motivating at least some of these posters here? None? Not even a little? And yes
you are the poster child of why BYU is disliked so much. And it's not just
by Ute fans, see SDSU, Wyoming..."Uteology - Someday, you and I shall meet.At that day I will gladly accept
I just can't wait to hear the Ducks & Sammy's spin on all of this.
This news must be driving them and many other fans nuts!
@Dan MaloySo, you're trying to tell us that there is absolutely
zero discrimination against non-LDS motivating at least some of these posters
here? None? Not even a little?And yes you are the poster child of
why BYU is disliked so much. And it's not just by Ute fans, see SDSU,
@ truthsandwich - RANDOLPH, UT "@ Dan Nope. It's BYU fans like you
bringing it on yourselves with comments like the one you just posted."So, you're trying to tell me that there is absolutely zero
religious discrimination against the LDS church motivating at least some of
these posters here? None? Not even a little? Riiiiiight.....I made my stand and I reiterate it for you: "most" of the
anti-BYU comments here and every comments board (seen the 'other' Salt
Lake newspaper online boards?) are motivated by anti-LDS feelings. Such
anti-BYU comments may not start out that way, but they often devolve into that
@ DanNope. It's BYU fans like you bringing it on yourselves
with comments like the one you just posted.
Wow.Tons of anti-BYU comments on here.I'd wager a
large pot of money that most of them are rooted in anti-"LDS"
bigotry.Someday, we're all gonna find out what "really"
motivated these postings.Keep your chin up, Cougars. Be prepared to
fight for what is right, but keep your chin up and stand tall.
The BU article had a survey from (pre-election) 2012 in which 81% of the
respondents said that Mitt Romney's religion caused them little or no
concern.Interesting.Because on election day, November
2012, it sure didn't turn out that way. Exit polls showed time after time
that "Christians" were missing from the polls in rather large
Very strong article. I mean, you simply can't overlook facts, and the
article is absolutely crammed with them, especially when they are seen within
the context (as the article points out) that the facts are based on more than
just BYU's success in football.(Now, lest any Utah fan give BYU
a hard time about our football program, they might just want to look at their
own losing record for the last 3 years first.)So, like I said...you
can't argue against facts.(Not that that will stop many Utah
fans from trying....)
This was a brilliantly written piece. I remember as a young man when BYU and the
LDS church were attacked for not allowing Blacks to hold the priesthood and
Stanford quit scheduling them.BYU faces discrimination because it is the
flagship institution of the church.We have sank to a new low in civility with so
much political correctness,Hollywood supporting immorality and weak politicians
being run over by strident partisans. It is time to get a megaphone and make
No power conference is going to accept a new team that tells them what days they
will and won't plat on. Until BYU changes this stance they will be on the
outside looking in or at the little boy table.
3grandslamsIowa City, IA"First, I want to know what ute
fans are afraid of? Their level of insecurity may never be healed. It seems
their very happiness hinges on berating BYU."Nope. This
doesn't have anything to do with Utah fans. "Seconds to
deny that BYU doesn't belong is to ignore the blatant bigotry of the PAC
12, California and Standford specifically." Nope. The Pac-12
established clear criteria upon which the invitation was extended to Utah and
Colorado. byu doesn't meet those standards. Whose fault is that? "we' are witnessing one of the greatest athletic discrimination
acts in the history of the NCAA. For anyone to deny it and just say BYU is not
good enough is gross incompetence or intelligence or truly bigotry."Nope. This is a bit over the top, don't you think?"The tradition of BYU is by far a national standard of excellence, the fan
base is by far large enough to be considered elite and the championships,
awards, trophies, records embarrass most other programs in America save only a
few."Absent from your list...whinny fans who call people names
when they don't get what they want.
First, I want to know what ute fans are afraid of? Their level of insecurity may
never be healed. It seems their very happiness hinges on berating BYU.Seconds to deny that BYU doesn't belong is to ignore the blatant bigotry
of the PAC 12, California and Standford specifically. But sad enough Utah is in
the same company. We' are witnessing one of the greatest athletic
discrimination acts in the history of the NCAA. For anyone to deny it and just
say BYU is not good enough is gross incompetence or intelligence or truly
bigotry.The tradition of BYU is by far a national standard of
excellence, the fan base is by far large enough to be considered elite and the
championships, awards, trophies, records embarrass most other programs in
America save only a few. Believe in yourself cougarnation,
don't listen to others filled with envy.
When Utah overwhelmingly supports the USA corporate goals of : Greed,
Corruption, and Social Indifference, how can you argue that a sports team should
be granted an exemption from the "game"?
ObjectifiedRichfield, UTMy comments are accusatory? byu fans,
are all over this thread blaming everyone but themselves for their situation and
my comments are accusatory? Let's look, shall we...You stated:"1) Sometimes...Not always easy to do because of some
schools exclusive and elitist attitude... similar to yours."Descent? Objective? Verifiable backing? "2) No it
hasn't, not yet...It still might be... depending on whether the elitist
attitude of some of the "big-boys" prevails and they get their
way."Descent? Objective? Verifiable backing?"3)
I credit Tom Holmoe for taking the best option available at the time. This next
season might open your eyes more."You credit Holmoe for all the
games byu will win this year? Fair enough. Holmoe is responsible for the
schedule. You realize, right, that the schedule is what the SEC and ACC pointed
to when they declared byu a mid-major. Not the ACC/SEC fault.Now my
turn...1. byu fans are calling others bigots, assert discrimination,
etc. This isn't the fault of Utah, Pac-12, the SEC, or ACC. I'm here
to make sure you understand that. Man up and accept responsibility. 2. See #1 above.
@SoonerUte\\Nice try.but basketball does not count. This P5 stuff
really only applies to football. This is about the college football playoffs
and access to bowls games. While they do play together in other sports those
other sports are irrelevant to the conversation,This whole situation
is about football and football only.We are talking strictly about
football.So according to your research BYU does belong when it comes
to football.And that what truly matters.The utes desire
to exclude BUY seems to be about hate, and probably bigotry, and not about
I won't deny religious bigotry sometimes effects BYU. It seems likely that
some branches of the PAC 12 might be entrenched with prejudice towards BYU. But
Sunday play is a huge issue. Be that as it is, it just is what it is as well.
And it won't change rather some PAC 12 authorities want or don't want
BYU in the conference. I say that because I think there are more important
individuals and entities within the PAC 12 that would like to have BYU a member
despite many BYU thinking the PAC 12 is out to get them all the time. Sure the
education structure at BYU is way different than on the left coast, but Sunday
play is the real factor in my mind. And that won't change for BYU or the
Y Dad/Y GradYes I think you are probably right. Win those extra few
games (some more winnable than others) and your Cougars won't be left out.
This year should be the year to do it. A talented and more mature Tayson Hill
and BYU's soft schedule leaves no room for excuses at not going unbeaten.
@ConcinnityLet me correct a few things. (1)It's been two years
not three without a bowl game. Although I would rather the road be tougher than
go bowling in the MWC or with BYU's schedule. And yes, BYU's schedule
is not a challenging one. (2)Saying BYU had a tougher schedule than Utah last
year is silly. Just because BYU played Texas, Wisconsin, and Notre Dame
doesn't make the rest of the schedule null and void. And the rest of the
schedule the last three years running (to use the vernacular here) has been
awful. Utah went BCS bowling twice in the MWC, but I still pointed
out that although they beat BCS teams, they still played a MWC schedule. Utah
beat 4 BCS teams in 2004 (Fiesta Bowl year), Texas A&M, Arizona, North
Carolina, and Pitt (decent wins). The rest of the schedule was weak (TCU joined
the conference the next year). (3)If you are lumping me into a category that
claims BYU not worthy for P5 inclusion then you are off base. Yes BYU belongs.
Feel better?. That doesn't mean I won't call out other spades that may
not sit well with you.
@NightOwlAmericaBecause football is all that matters and football is
the subject at hand.
@ MyPerspective:Your biased based judgments should've never
been printed. They are accusatory, off-topic and disruptive. You make very
negative accusations against BYU fans and once again offer absolutely no proof
or verifiable backing.The context of your comments indicates it
would be nearly impossible for a BYU fan to have a decent, objective discussion
with you. Two For Flinching seems quite similar.The answers you
requested: 1) Sometimes. The ESPN affiliation and national tv exposure.
The freedom to try to schedule whom you want is a double-edged sword. Not always
easy to do because of some schools exclusive and elitist attitude... similar to
yours. 2) No it hasn't, not yet. But was the best alternative
available at the time. It still might be... depending on whether the elitist
attitude of some of the "big-boys" prevails and they get their way. 3) I credit Tom Holmoe for taking the best option available at the
time. This next season might open your eyes more.Your turn:1.
Why do you and other ultra-Ute fans comment more on BYU articles than BYU fans
do?2. What's with your anti-BYU obsession and rhetoric?
This article and the premise that it puts forward are exactly why I am not a BYU
fan. In my experience, there has always been this attitude of superiority from
the fan base. Even as a child I was repulsed by it and hence my moniker.
Goodluck with your endeavors. Maybe you can consult with the gay rights
movement on how to force your way into where you are not wanted.
Copacetic,"To boot, one of your main quotes was from a guy who
was the president of the Utes at the time they were getting their
invite."That would be Michael Young now the current President at
Washington. I did not see a quote used by Michael Young as you asserted.
@ BrioI lose credibility? Because you copied and pasted a paragraph
from BYU's CRC page. I wonder why you left this out? "The vision can
only be effectively engendered in students by involving them directly in cancer
research, which is the primary goal of the BYUCRC. Over 100 undergraduate and
graduate students annually pursue various aspects of cancer research with
members of the BYUCRC"Again, compare that to the Huntsman Cancer
Institute which is designated by the National Cancer Institute, it is n't
mcdugall:There are no reports that the Y turned down an invitation
to the Big 12. In order to do so, the Big 12 would have had to have invited
them first, and there was no invitation. There was for TCU and WVU, but not for
the no-BCS-bowl-busting cougs. They were too midmajorey.
@ CopaceticYou asked for "....one verifiable quote from an
authorized PAC12 representative to support your statement."I
gave you one from an active Mormon, who graduated from BYU and was president of
Cal (kind of punches a hole in the bigotry argument), and from the official
PAC-12 release when Utah and CU got invited. BOTH explicitly mentioned
academics and research as a factor in the invitation process. I
think the PAC came out and said exactly why they invited Utah. "Colorado
and Utah fit perfectly into this tradition, bringing nationally recognized
research programs and a record of athletic excellence that includes 42 NCAA
titles." If you want to reject that and play the victim so be it; but your
stance is at odds with the facts.
@ Two For Flinching:Your comment comparing Utah's and
BYU's research is so ridiculously biased and out of context that it
literally made me laugh and roll my eyes at the same time. Google
"Cancer research at BYU" and you will find a lot of impressive material.
Here is a quote I found in less than a minute:The Cancer Research
Center at BYU is an organization composed of distinguished professors in the
fields of Chemical Engineering; Chemistry and Biochemistry; Health Sciences;
Integrative Biology; Microbiology and Molecular Biology; Nutrition, Dietetics
and Food Science; Physiology and Developmental Biology; and Statistics. These professors are some of the best noted and productive researchers in
their respective departments. Every year the CRC funds numerous cancer research
fellowships, allowing students a chance to work with these prestigious
researchers to study this disease. These professors and students are driven to
make a significant contribution to the discovery of a cure for cancer.You obviously know so little about actual research going on at BYU that it is
both laughable and sad. You've lost all comment credibility because of your
bias in not being able to make any legitimate comparisons.
"Good undergrad programs are a dime a dozen." Better undergrad programs
place better in grad/doctoral programs. ARWU is based in Shanghai. Show me a
reputable US-based college ranking system that ranks U. of Utah ahead of BYU.
Which school has higher entering GPAs, SAT & ACT scores? Which school
produces more doctoral/masters degrees from its graduates?Hence, the
old joke:Q. What do BYU & U. of Utah students all have in common?A. They all applied to BYU...
@ Two For Flinching:You've so far offered only quotes of
opinion with nothing concrete or of evidence to back any of your previous
assertions. To boot, one of your main quotes was from a guy who was the
president of the Utes at the time they were getting their invite. Do you think
there's any possibility of any bias... considering the source? Even then, he simply offered personal opinion and no numerical or verifiable
evidence to back his biased opinion. And neither have you. A press release from
the PAC12 about them having a nice nickname means and proves absolutely nothing
concerning their criteria in choosing Utah and not BYU to join their conference.
Do you think they're going to come out and say it's
because of their own secular attitude and BYU's incongruent religious
attitude that they weren't invited? Of course not! All liberal institutions
play by the premise that they are tolerantly open to diversity, while very few
actually prove it. Actions speak louder than words. And so far your words and
weak quotes have proven absolutely nothing. There has been no verifiable
evidence given in support of your assertions.
BYU will never be invited to the PAC 12 but not because of religious
affiliation. Everyone of or almost everyone of the PAC 12 schools has had a
Mormon president and an active Mormon at that. Even very liberal Colorado had
Gordon Gee. Washington currently has Michael Young. The whole California
higher ed system which includes Cal and UCLA was led for many years by David
Gardner, a BYU grad and former U president. Arizona State had G. Homer Durham
who later became as LDS general authority. I could go on and on. The point is
that PAC 12 schools through their hiring practices for top positions and their
politics are not anti Mormon. I believe the main reason BYU did not get an
invite and will not get an invite and I have stated this before, is that the
league already has two private universities, Stanford and USC, with all the
attendant well heeled alumni and financial resources that private schools can
command and the rest of the public universities did not and do not want to
contend with a third private school.
For the hx. revionists that still exist:1984 AP final football
poll1) BYU 13-02) UW 11-1 (did not win PAC 10 & lost to BYU 35-3
Sept. '85)3) UF 9-1-1 (on probation)4) Nebr. 10-25) BC
10-21984 UPI (Coaches) final football pollSame but UF omitted
due to probation.
@ CopaceticHere is the official PAC-12 press release:"With more than 120 Nobel Laureates across all of its campuses and the
first ever to reach 400 NCAA Championships, the Conference is synonymous with
both academic excellence and athletic success, having earned the nickname the
“Conference of Champions”.Colorado and Utah fit
perfectly into this tradition, bringing nationally recognized research programs
and a record of athletic excellence that includes 42 NCAA titles."
@ NightOwlAmerica:You've made all kinds of assertions that BYU
was not invited to the PAC12 solely because of academics and research. Yet
you've offered absolutely no emperical or verfifiable evidence to support
that as true. Absolutely none whatsoever. And until you do, the religious
discrimination card is justifiably still on the table. You even
stated that Baylor, a religious school was not invited to join the PAC10 (at
that time) when Texas and Oklahoma wanted them to come along as a package deal.
And since you once again failed to offer any prove to the contrary, it very much
seems that there was some religious discrimination in that case as well. Make personal assertions all day long. But verifiable evidence is what
others pay attention to. You've offered none.
@ CopaceticI believe I offered a lot of evidence for why Utah was
chosen to join the PAC-12; about 355 million pieces of evidence in fact.As for the rankings, they all use different criteria. However, the
academic ranking for world universities (ARWU) has Utah in the top 100 schools
in the world. Well ahead of BYU. Anyway this isn't really the point.
BYU's higher ranking means nothing to PAC-12 schools because they
don't have the research and advanced degrees that should go along with
quality education. Good undergrad programs are a dime a dozen.Utah
has maintained the PAC's academic profile by bringing in a huge amount of
cancer research, and well as medical and optical technology. It's also
laughable that you are asserting that BYU might have out done Utah's
research in some way. Utah is working on curing cancer. The last BYU study I
heard about was how to eliminate urinal splash-back. There isn't even a
@ SoonerUte:You stated, "If BYU wants a seat at the big boy
table, they need to earn it."That is so very funny coming the
school of a big-boy conference that is hardly sitting at their conference table.
Based on results since joining the PAC12, Utah is barely subsisting on the table
scraps falling from that big-boy table... and not much else. Every
single season since falling into their PAC12 invite, Utah has ended up fighting
tooth and nail with Colorado to stay out of the complete basement bottom of the
conference. Last season Utah finally beat their first game against a conference
foe with a winning record. And that's after 3 years of trying. A grand
total of a single such victory. That hardly comes across as sitting at the table
with the big boys. As some Ute fans are so fond of saying... you
have earn that distinction. Kudos to Utah for still trying, even if those
efforts have mostly been in vain. But nothing sustainable has happened yet worth
bragging about, as the Ute merry-go-round of new football coaches continues
after each and every season.
At this point in the discussion, a few people are still screaming and mostly
nobody is litening to anybody else, but here's my two cents:If
we could win one or two more big games a year, I don't think they could
keep us out. Shoot, if we would quit losing the one or two games a year that we
shouldn't lose to, they couldn't keep us out.We WILL still
be able to schedule big games. They may be 2 for 1, they may all be in August
or September or a decent bowl game, but we have to take advantage of every
opportunity.Still, it is a delicious thought, to show all the high
falootin' research institutions that they shouldn't mess with the
school that has a top-ranked law school.
@ CopaceticHere's a pretty good quote: "If not for the
U's performance in the classrooms and laboratories, this partnership would
not have formed. I know from my years at the helm of the California system of
higher education that Pac-10 schools place a great deal of emphasis on
broad-based academic excellence, just as Utah does. The invitation extended to
the (University of Utah) to join the Pac-10 is the most recent evidence of...a
tangible expression of regard by other distinguished universities of the
successes and accomplishments of the state's flagship public university.
The U's Pac-10 affiliation is based on more than athletic prowess; it is
also an affirmation by the Pac-10 universities of the University of Utah's
standing as a leading American university, also a condition for Pac-10
membership and without which judgment the invitation would never have been
extended." —David P. Gardner, president emeritus of both the
University of Utah and the University of California educational system
Yippee! Another voice for 'Let me in or I will sue'! Nobody cares.
As a state school, U. of Utah has far fewer barriers to gov't $ than does
BYU. How much research $ is endowed privately vs. publicly for each school?
@ Two For Flinching:You can say something a hundred times or even a
thousand times, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. You offer no
evidence to support your contention. None. Give me one verifiable quote from an
authorized PAC12 representative to support your statement. If you've said
it a hundred times, as you stated, there must be many verifiable quotes out
there on the subject.The only thing you're stating is opinion
and nothing else. In academia circles and studies, BYU has had
overall higher rankings than Utah and at least several of the current PAC12
members. When you are looking for the requested verifiable statement requested
above, you will undoubtedly find several studies that support and display
BYU's higher ranking relative to other PAC schools.Utah might
be a better PAC12 fit, but it isn't due to academia standards. While on the
subject, please name some verifiable ways Utah has raised (or even maintained)
the PAC12 high standard and reputation regarding research since joining the
conference several years ago, especially in ways besting BYU. It's time to
back your assertions... or else find another angle to support your Ute related
Christine B. HedgefogSalt Lake City, UT"The key phrase in
the article is "Can anyone rationally argue"Key word
"rationally"."What does that mean, Christine? Can
anyone argue with the opinion of a sports writer? Are you serious?Do you know what this comes down to? Jealousy. Plain and simple. Three fundamental questions to coug fans...1. Are you happy with
independence...why?2. Has independence delivered everything you were
promised...what's missing?3. Who is to blame for the situation byu is
Christine B. HedgefogRational byu fans know that winning the big games is
the answer. byu hasn't done that. I doubt that raising political havoc is
the exposure that the church and byu are looking for.My espn comment
is out of context. It was a follow up to a comment that was posted and then
The key phrase in the article is "Can anyone rationally argue"Key word "rationally".That leaves several of those
commenting (see first two comments) out of the argument.
@ BrioI disagree. I think the medical school and research Utah
conducts was a huge factor when the PAC was looking to expand. Observation
tells me that I'm right. Academic standing is a part of a conference
brand, the Ivy League is the most extreme example. The average
research budget for PAC-12 schools in $450 million per year. In 2009
Utah's research budget climbed to $355 million per year, and has since
risen. BYU has some fine undergraduate programs, and is a good school. But BYU
doesn't command money like that when it comes to research, and as a result,
it would have done nothing to further the PAC-12's reputation in the world
of academia. I've said it a hundred times, and I'll say it again.
BYU not being invited in to the PAC is not about religious bigotry. It's
about how Utah was/is a better fit.
@ SoonerUte and xert:On the outset, your suggestion to settle for
"2 for 1" games against the big-boys sounds almost reasonable. But to do
that with a full schedule of such games (as you suggested) is not feasible. That
would mean BYU would have to play twice as many games on the road as at home.
BYU fans and season ticket holders would never settle for that... to play only 4
home games a season while playing 8 games on the road. Not reasonable
whatsoever. Everyone knows how much tougher it is to win on the road
than at home. That's the entire reason the big-boys you are referring to
want the 2 for 1 to begin with. They are asking for and demanding an advantage.
What's wrong with wanting and expecting an equal playing field...
especially if you and they think they are so much better to begin with?Please tell me of one other notable program in the nation that settles for
playing twice as many games on the road as at home. Name just a single one. The
fact that you can't means your suggestion isn't doable, feasible or
This one paragraph from the article sums it all. Someone go ahead and dispute
this paragraph, I want to see it..."It seems reasonable to
assert that whether Mormons are discriminated against generally in the United
States or not, the fact that BYU is being excluded from the top tier of college
athletics, when it is so obviously belongs in the top tier based on its merits,
is at least in some ways a demonstration of discrimination or inequality —
whether by definition or by effect."
@ AntelopeValleyUte:You said Utah could help BYU in the regard of
how to go undefeated and play in BCS bowl games. Seriously? You somehow think
that BYU should get advice from a school that hasn't even qualified for any
bowl whatsoever for the past 3 years and running? A school which hasn't had
a winning record in years and who has beat a grand total of one game against any
fellow conference teams with a winning record? Utah would be one of
the last places any school should currently go to for football success
advice.@ gdog3finally:You infer and includes comments
about BYU always having "an easy schedule" as an argument against BYU
inclusion. And yet you conveniently forget that just last season BYU had a
tougher and higher ranked schedule than Utah had had in it's entire history
prior to last season. It was one of the top-10 part way through the season, but
dropped to someplace within the top-25 by the time Utah and other P5 schools
they played earlier lost additional games. So hilarious and telling
that more Ute fans commented on this all-BYU article than BYU fans.
Brio - BYU "AD has claimed in several past articles that scheduling the
"big-boy" games is very difficult"I imagine it is
difficult when trying to schedule a game as a 1-for-1 big-boy. Don't do
that. Change the marketing. Sell BYU as the best mid-major. Accept 2 for
1's, or single games if you have to.The big-boys have to
improve their strength of schedule primarily by eliminating FCS games. Last
year, each P5 conference scheduled about 10 FCS games. That is FIFTY games BYU
can compete for. Even if they only had 8 majors on the schedule, that would be
something! Wouldn't you enjoy that as a fan?No doubt, BYU can
beat a Texas or a Miami when its their only big game on the slate. You treat it
like a bowl game. Those are trap games for the big-boys. Remaining to be seen
is how BYU would do against a full slate. Chris Hill lobbied for 10 years to
get a PAC spot. Maybe it takes 10 years for BYU to build independence. If that
means adding staff to help Holmoe schedule, do it! Play the big-boy schedule.
Prove you belong.
I agree that BYU deserves better than being excluded as a mid major and rests
somewhere outside of the Power 5 interest. Now I will tell you how to remedy
that very unfortunate situation. When one of the Power 5 teams agrees to put you
on their schedule (this will be tough--because the Y is too tough to be
considered a gimme and not prestigious enough to count as a major
opponent)---you have to go into their place and beat them. Just win. Win all of
your games and make them notice you. This is how you earned your national
championship (albeit disputed by most and against a weak Michigan squad in the
Holiday Bowl) and this is how Utah and Boise State busted through the clutter of
those giants and made them recognize them. Utah going to the Pac 12 was no
accident. They are paying for their membership with bruises aplenty and the
growing pains are intense. But they are there. BYU would have been truly better
off staying in the MWC. Independence that has not proven to be BYU's ticket
to Notre Dame status, has been a failure and let's face it. A Mess.
I don't think launching lawsuits or media campaigns is going to impress the
Power Conferences. I think such actions will only reinforce the undoubtedly
untrue negative stereotype that BYU has an inflated sense of its own importance
and is too difficult to deal with.
idaho cougar fanTwin Falls, ID"If was all about money and
# of viewers, BYU wins out way over Utah and Colorado."Well,
idaho cougar fan, if what you say is true, then clearly an invitation to the
elite is not about money. Great logic, sport. Now, maybe you see why research
is important. Look, when Holmoe started his independence
experiment, byu fans were giddy with excitement. Now, all byu fans can focus on
is how they are not part of the elite. What changed, idaho cougar
fan? Are you saying that independence is a joke and that you really do want
what Utah has? I'm anxious to hear your response. If membership in an
elite conference is what byu wants, then Holmoe has mislead byu fans. Be
careful how you answer that question, idaho cougar fan, because the Pac-12 is
out of byu's reach.
@ Two For Flinching:The level of bias in your comments is borderline
ridiculous. You think because utah has a medical program and BYU doesn't,
that that makes an affiliation difference? Absurd. Do you realize how many P5
schools don't have medical programs?Besides that, BYU has other
academic programs that far exceed the u. Their Accounting program and their
entire School of Business Management programs are all nationally ranked well
ahead of utahs and most P5 schools.BYU's AD has mentioned
numerous times how difficult it is to get bigger-time programs to schedule BYU.
Because BYU is not currently recognized as one of them (*the premise of this
article), they figure they have more to lose than to gain by playing and
possibly losing to BYU.If more P5 schools would agree to play BYU,
much of this issue would go away. BYU would either sink or float. But they
won't. Do some research on past DN articles where Tom Holmoe articulates
and explains the difficulties of trying to schedule "big-boy" schools.
Utah fans negative attitude and comments regarding anything BYU has
become totally predictable and are taken with a grain of salt.
This is a silly article based on its premise: i.e., that screaming/whining BYU
fans can be the force which tips the balance and lets BYU into a P5 conference
(or gets the P5 conferences to consider BYU as an equal). BYU is not in a P5
conference because by-and-large the P5 schools don't want to associate with
BYU. BYU's history with every conference its ever been a member of one of
a prima donna that causes headaches for the other members. BYU is also
perceived (rightly or wrongly doesn't matter) as very hypocritical.There are some dismal schools (performance wise) in the P5 conferences
(because tradition), and there are some very successful schools (a lot more than
just BYU) on the outside of the P5 looking in because there isn't
"room" for them, or because the conference members simply don't
like them. You can call that whatever you like but the fact remains that the
only way to get into a conference is if the members of that conference vote to
let you in - and right now no one wants to vote to let BYU in.
311ute,You make a good point. The missionary effort is enhanced by
the exposure of those teams and BYU being known as a religious school and then
people asking questions about the Church. But I think that opportunity is
diminishing these days. As a Mormon and college sports fan I see
sports and religion increasingly going different directions. While it is still
possible to be a sports fan and be religious, participating in sports and
remaining truly religious is becoming harder and harder. The lifestyles that
surround today's college and pro athletes make it really hard to be
religious. While there was a time when the LDS Church got a lot of positive
mileage from the national exposure of BYU's football and basketball
programs I think that effort is losing steam with the changes being made in
college football. The current investigation at BYU is going to make this effort
even a harder sell.
@ SoonerUte:You are using a selective memory regarding BYU and
it's current situation. Their AD has claimed in several past articles that
scheduling the "big-boy" games is very difficult and as such is a
constant frustration.Those schools have all seen what BYU did to
Texas on national TV last year. They remember what they did to Miami a number of
years ago when Miami came to Provo ranked #1 in the nation. As such, they
understand what BYU is capable of on any day or game. They almost always play
fellow big-boys very competitively. And since the supposedly elite
of the big-boys have refused to see BYU as one of the bigs, they feel they have
more to lose than to gain by playing BYU. BYU plays most of their games on
national TV on ESPN. So having a team you refused to allow into your conference
beat you in front of the entire country would be very embarrassing and a real
downer with the ranking services. As such, they choose to pass on invitations to
play BYU.BYU is ready and willing. Most of the "bigs" are
@idaho cougar fan,How is BYU's schedule getting better? They
have TWO home games scheduled for 2016 while everyone in a P5 conference has
their schedules completed. BYU has basically the entire month of OCT TBD with
no hopes of getting anyone to come to LES. Why do you think the AD has been
flying around the country meeting with anyone and everyone?
Some current undergrad. univ. rankings: US News & World Report, BYU #62, U.
of Utah #121. Forbes, BYU #75, U. of Utah #143.
College Presidents meet and decide who gets into conferences and who does not.
Not the AD's and certainly not the coaches or other administrators. This
may be hard to believe but when the Presidents of the Universities get together
to make decisions on conference membership it isn't always about the sports
involved or who is great at what sport and who isn't. Many times it comes
down to who fits best within the club. Utah made the concious decision back in
about 1970 beginning with President James E. Fletcher, a scientist and later two
time director of NASA, and continuing on through subsequent Presidents like
David Gardner to become a major and well repected research university. This
decision and the success that followed with research in many areas but most
profoundly in the medical fields paved the way for Utah to get an invitation to
the PAC 12 from the other PAC 12 Presidents. Sure, the athletic success had to
be there also, but it was not the number one factor in the minds of the
Presidents. Obviously, if athletic on field success is the only determining
factor then BYU does belong.
It is funny to read all the comments. I like to bag on the Ute trolls as much as
anybody and some of them are way off base. Some Ute fans actually use logic and
have some good insight. Here is how I see it.1. BYU needs to win
more games. The schedule is getting better in the future and will take care of
itself. Win and we are in. BYU football has not done enough the last 10
years.2. Overall, BYU has one of the best athletic programs in the
nation. One of only a few who operate in the black and not the red. Go ahead, do
the research and see Uties!3. Main reason that BYU is not in a P5C,
religious bigotry. Plain and simple. If we take everything into account, BYU has
been passed up because of religious intolerance. Those who say otherwise are
kidding themselves. If was all about money and # of viewers, BYU wins out way
over Utah and Colorado. The research program crap is just a cover. You know it,
I know it and Pac 10 presidents know it.
Jazzsmack - "@SoonerUte provide evidence that BYU is not one of top 64
athletic programs"Version 2 Now with names!!51
different teams played in a BCS bowl game. They earn a spot in "the
list".13 spots remain17 BCS teams didn't qualify for
a BCS bowl. From that list, I'd take these teams ahead of BYU: Missouri,
South Carolina, Arizona, Arizona State, California, Texas Tech, Mississippi
State, Ole Miss.5 spots remainIts not just football.
You said "athletic programs". Who would leave these basketball programs
off the list?Indiana, Kentucky, North Carolina, North Carolina State,
Duke.0 spots remainThat leaves BYU as a bubble team,
somewhere in this group:Virginia, Boston College, BYU, Iowa State,
Correction: They're not as good as espn thought they were.
G-Day-M8WVC, UT"Here are the facts.BYU was
strongly considered at one time to join the PACBYU was recruited by the
SWC but would not bail on UtahBYU was not taken by the PAC 12 because of
Cultural differencesPAC 12 admission is by unanimous vote of school
presidentsThe majority of PAC 12 school presidents would take BYU but that
is not in playMWC member schools hated BYU as evidenced by Gary
Patterson's and other schools hateful comments and attitudesBYU was
used and abused by the MWC... These are facts? Definition of Fact: A thing that has actually happened or that is really true;
reality; actuality; truthHere's a fact...The SEC and ACC
have declared byu a mid-major and others are taking notice.
zmillion2West Jordan, UT@Chris B."I know that
you know that BYU would have received an invite if we weren't a faith based
institution...The reason BYU wasn't invited was because ALL of the schools
already in the conference have to vote for the college to be accepted. There are
a number of schools (Stanford, Cal) who would never vote BYU in due to our
religious affiliation."zmillion2, you make a statement of fact
out of your wishful thinking. Here's an excerpt from a comment posted by a
byu fan two days ago..."I too, have tight connection to not only
the pac 12 process, but to Holmoe's crew. BYU going independent...Utes to
the PAC12 was a very deliberate decision. BYU and U were both in the
discussion, but it came down to more than football...even though most on the
committee felt like Utah had a slight edge there. It was the whole package:
academics, international reputation, research, athletics, alumni,
audience..."How do we know this description is accurate?
Because this is exactly what was represented by the Pac-10 at the time of their
invitation to Utah.
CougarColby, you nailed it! I didn't like this article either! The last
thing we need is a bunch of BYU folks claiming discrimination of all things.
This seems very arrogant! However, BYU has burned a lot of bridges with other
schools in the west over the years with exactly this type of arrogance!
Instead, BYU needs to drop all these broadcast rights demands and realize they
are not Texas nor Notre Dame and then present a rationale arguement to the Big
12 why they would help the conference. It's not about discrimination in my
view. It's about not winning lately, and it's about thinking that BYU
carries enough clout to name their price when it comes to conference
affiliation. Sunday plan isn't the problem. It's all the other
demands that BYU seems to make that have nothing to do with Church doctrine.
Start to win and start to be a little more humble and you may end up getting
invited by someone!!
I am curious to know what the approach is or will be at BYU on this matter. Will
they raise their voice and cry afoul (discrimination type approach), or use
athletics to make a stance (church statement) that might end the program some
day? I can't say I wouldn't be surprised either way. Things might play out somewhere in the middle though, where BYU wins the
highest majority of their games within an easy schedule, gets exposure on ESPN
(missionary tool), and uses leverage there to win more people over as well as
offend along the way. This will keep things similar to how they are now, meaning
much of the same perspectives BYU has about itself and others have towards them.
The Cougars will get ranked winning 10 plus games against weak competition
because of extensive fans around the country and TV contracts/money. Results? BYU keeps being excluded from the big bowl games (like in recent
decades). However they will keep getting ranked by 'USA Today'
courtesy of ESPN.If BYU cries discrimination, and I think they
should, they also should have more sympathy for others discriminated against
that they have ignored.
Sorry, the last thing BYU's image needs right now is for them to start
playing the whiney victim card.
Regardless of the good comments from sports analyst around the country, the
reasons why no one wants to invite BYU:1. BYU's ego-driven
demands, no play on Sunday, wants BYUTv, and be considered a power team with a
Mormon national following that has a 1984 national championship that merits
prestige in its own right.2. They haven't played in a BCS game
or won one (huge factor whether BYU faithful want to admit it or not; its earned
not given and 1984 was a long time ago)3. Power 5 teams are afraid
to play and lose to BYU because it will ruin their SOS because of a loss to
(what the P5 conference consider BYU is) a "mid-major" caliber team.4. Add possible scandal.All the reasons why no one wants
BYU.My advice...go undefeated and dominate your season and get an
invited to a BCS bowl game and win, and maybe you might be considered. Ask TCU
and Utah, they can help you in that department what you need to do.
A1994Centerville, UT said:"P5 Teams who have never won a
national championship: Duke, Wake Forest, North Carolina State, North Carolina,
Virginia, Virginia Tech, Baylor, Kansas, Kansas State, Texas Tech, West
Virginia, Iowa State, Oregon, Oregon State, Washington State, Arizona, Arizona
State, Mississippi State, South Carolina, Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Northwestern,
and (wait for it) Utah. And there are several P5's (Like Cal and Stanford)
who won their NC in the 1920s (just for anyone who is saying 1984 was so long
ago.) This isn't a question of whether or not BYU is relevant in college
football. Of course they are. They also have a Heisman Trophy in their case as
well. This is an issue of not wanting to share money. I can't imagine any
true college football fan who wants to shut our half of the FBS teams from
competing."Yeah never mind the fact that Kansas is a basketball
power, UA & ASU have won NCAA titles in several sports. Oregon State has
college world series titles, Duke & N. Carolina are also basketball powers.
There are other national titles with the schools you listed. Why do you only
bring up Football?
dhsalumSaint George, UT@MyPerspective said:"Utah's academics are not better than BYU's. Each school has
certain programs and certain schools that are better, but overall they are
essentially equal. The Pac 12 got the salt lake market while not having to
bringing in a church school. Anyone who followed expansion knows there was no
chance BYU would be invited to the pac because of their association with the
Mormon church."Sorry but you need to do more research. The PAC
12 has a set of criteria to join. Yes it's true that to some degree that
BYU was not invited because it's a religious school. BYU fans need to
remember here that when Texas, Oklahoma and the others were invited. Some
politicians demanded that Baylor be part of the deal. The PAC 12 said no. Baylor
is also a religious school, and actually brings little to the table as far as
research and academics. So please stop playing the LDS discrimination card when
talking about the PAC 12.
Did you Utah "fans" even read the article? If you did, you would know
that, like the author wrote, no one can honestly give a good reason as to why
BYU shouldn't be given the chance to "play with the big boys."
Because you think BYU doesn't deserve a chance, does that mean the rankings
the author used like the Director's Cup ranking, ESPN's all-time
college football prestige ranking, and Sports Illustrated's "Program
Pecking Order" mean nothing? Do the people who work for ESPN and Sports
Illustrated know nothing about college football? I think some Utah
"fans" are just upset that BYU is ranked higher than Utah in several
polls and ranking systems by people who know what they are talking about. Let
the excuses fly!
KCbleedsblueSPANISH FORK, UT said:"The big picture is
about discrimination of other college programs in the NCAA. What right does
certain conferences have to create a monopoly of college football for the intent
to control the direction of money channeled in the college football industry?
….."Because they can. The major conferences are fast
approaching a time when they will have the power to break away from NCAA
authority. And when they do, the tv contracts, money and fans will follow.
Unfortunately the author of this article shares the same sentiment as other BYU
fans. They "deserve" and "belong." Sounds selfish and
spoiled.Sorry, it does not work that way. Pouting and calling out major
conferences only widens the gap between you and them.
continued from above5.Is BYU better than most fans
and”experts” believe? For the past two years (at least) BYU has won
the number of games predicted in Preseason. Last year they played 7 teams from
the 5 top conferences. They defeated Texas! (a 5 loss Texas team). However
that “good” win was more than offset by the inexplicable loss to
Virginia. 6.They have no chance to win a big game this year that would
make a case for them being better than people believe. Why – because of a
strength of schedule in the mid-nineties (Not 1 of the Big 5 conference members
will play a schedule any where as weak as this one)they are favored in 11 of
their games with Texas being a “toss-up” (So no chance to impress
as Utah did when they defeated then #5 Stanford last season and Alabama in
’08 Sugar Bowl)This is just an "argument" that BYU doe
not have a top 60 football team. However, If Utah is as bad as many BYU fans
say they are applying logic to the past 3 years results leads to a plausible
Folks, there is nothing to panic about. We're scheduling great games out
into the future. Many other big teams will continue to play us because we
travel well and because they get to be seen on ESPN when they play in Provo. We
even play in bowl games every year; not every team can say that. ;)
@You are "Kidding, “Please do us all a favor. Please provide us with
the empirical evidence that justified Utah's inclusion in AND BYU's
exclusion from a P5 conference based on "on the field" performance"
and from the article"Can anyone make an argument that BYU does not possess a
…. top 60 football program?" YesConsider the
following:1. Majority of the "experts" would rank TCU and Utah
ahead of BYU in the years prior to their admission to the PAC-12 and Big 12.
(Consider the 20 years prior – not the period 40-20 years prior. A
question of what have you done recently)2.Both TCU and Utah have struggled
in the 3 years of current conference membership.3.BYU fans are quick to
say Utah is “bottom-dweller” of PAC-12 and are “grouped with
teams they consider the lowest of the major conferences. (names mentioned
include Iowa State, Vanderbuilt, etc)4.Yet Utah has beaten the Y 9 of the
last 12 years and the last 4. (to be continued)
I can stand up all I want and scream "I won't take it anymore," but
all that is going to happen is my wife will tell me to be quiet, she is trying
to sleep.To be heard, BYU has to win games and have a phenomenal
season. They have not done that recently.
@ A1994So what? Yale and Army both dwarf anything BYU has done in
terms of awards. Should they be considered a P5 opponent?If BYU
wants respect, schedule a P5 schedule and WIN. Using the courts to manufacture
respect for your football program will not work.
It seems that a lot of Utah "fans" simply are not getting the point.
The author of the article used facts that can be easily verified for why BYU
should be given a chance to compete for a NC as part of a P5 conference or at
least get a Notre Dame "exception." If I remember correctly, when Utah
broke into the BCS in 2004 and especially in 2008, wasn't there a lot of
Utah fans that were complaining about how the BCS was unfair and the team should
have been given a shot at the national championship? Yes, BYU hasn't won a
BCS game, but again, as stated in the article, BYU's resume speaks for
itself. As I've stated in other posts, I think Utah "fans" are
happy about BYU's struggles simply because its BYU. If it were almost any
other team or even Utah themselves, Ute "fans" would more than likely be
saying the same things a lot of BYU fans are saying now.
CougarColby said it perfectly: re: A1194:"If the P5 schools want
to create a bigger D1 league without BYU...then we need to play better so they
have to include us." We are 2-12 against ranked opponents-our product
isn't there NOW-who cares about 1984. The kids playing now weren't
even born!"I honestly believe that BYU will be in the FCS
division in the coming years because football isn't the most important
thing at BYU." I hope sports arent dropped all together ala BYU Hawaii and
Ricks...I ask you-if we were in the PAC where would we finish?
Honestly. 10th? (we being member 13) ahd of Wash St, Cal, Colorado?Wash-no lostUtah-no lostOSU- noOregon-noStanford-noUSC-noUCLA-noASU-noAZ-notake your heart out of
it...anyone diagree? if so u rank em
P5 Teams who have never won a national championship: Duke, Wake Forest, North
Carolina State, North Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Baylor, Kansas, Kansas
State, Texas Tech, West Virginia, Iowa State, Oregon, Oregon State, Washington
State, Arizona, Arizona State, Mississippi State, South Carolina, Kentucky,
Vanderbilt, Northwestern, and (wait for it) Utah. And there are several
P5's (Like Cal and Stanford) who won their NC in the 1920s (just for anyone
who is saying 1984 was so long ago.) This isn't a question of whether or
not BYU is relevant in college football. Of course they are. They also have a
Heisman Trophy in their case as well. This is an issue of not wanting to share
money. I can't imagine any true college football fan who wants to shut our
half of the FBS teams from competing.
Here are the facts.BYU was not invited to join the Big 12Very
few, if any conversations were even heldBYU was strongly considered at one
time to join the PAC BYU was recruited by the SWC but would not bail on
UtahSunday play was not part of the Big 12 not taking BYU as BYU was never
in the runningTV was not in part of the Big 12 not taking BYU as BYU was
never in the runningThe arrogance of BYU being dissed by the Big 12 is a
myth conjured up by the BYU hatersBYU is a top perennial top 25 athletic
school and has been for yearsBYU was not taken by the PAC 12 because of
Cultural differencesPAC 12 admission is by unanimous vote of school
presidentsThe majority of PAC 12 school presidents would take BYU but that
is not in playMWC member schools hated BYU as evidenced by Gary
Patterson's and other schools hateful comments and attitudesBYU was
used and abused by the MWCBYU was prepared for many years to move to
independence BYU's independence move was NOT a knee jerk reaction
US News & World Report: BYU #62, U. of Utah #121Forbes: BYU #75, U. of
@Chris B.I know that you know that BYU would have received an invite
if we weren't a faith based institution. Obviously the PAC-12 would rather
of had Utah and BYU rather than Colorado. The reason BYU wasn't invited was
because ALL of the schools already in the conference have to vote for the
college to be accepted. There are a number of schools (Stanford, Cal) who would
never vote BYU in due to our religious affiliation. Also you mention that no
Power-5 conference wants BYU. If I remember correctly the BIG-12 wanted BYU and
it was a done deal until BYU said no to giving up T.V. rights. BYU
is definitely better than at least half of the teams in the Power-5 conferences.
I do think BYU will join a conference eventually. The BIG-12 makes the most
sense, as the PAC-12's liberal schools would never accept BYU.
Those of you who say just win and everything will be ok are WRONG.BYU wins more games than 80% of the teams out there - and things are NOT ok.
We are easily one of the top 64 teams, but we ARE NOT one of the top 20 teams
and with restrictions we face in recruiting, never will be.Boise
State won and won and won and where did it get them? What makes you think BYU
is any different?BYU faces several problems. One is bigotry, like
it or not. Look at the majority of Christians that claim we are not "one of
them". You think they are predisposed to letting BYU join their conference?
The second is geography. We don't fit any major conference, except the
PAC10, and we know we are not going there. Third is Sunday play - a huge problem
which we know BYU will never give in on.So are you willing to simply
sit back and HOPE that we get invited to the dance? As this article points out,
we should scream, holler and do what it takes to get what we deserve.
Otherwise, we will be left out, mark it down.
Jazzsmack - "@SoonerUte provide evidence that BYU is not one of top 64
athletic programs in the nation, and therefore not deserving of
inclusion."If you are building a list of the top 64 athletic programs
- regardless of conference affiliation -- one can make the case that BYU is in
that list.But what good does that do you?Nobody is
ranking the top 64 teams and drawing a line and saying "this is the new
division". The division is based on the SCHEDULE you play. You will never
have a convincing argument that BYU plays a major schedule until they schedule 9
teams from the major conferences. "On paper" is not good enough. We
prove things on the field now.Imagine 3 unbeaten teams, Ohio State,
Oregon, and Alabama, but Alabama has played BYU's 2014 schedule. Which two
teams earned the right to play for the National Title?(Hint: Not
Alabama)If BYU is not included, your complaint is with Tom Holmoe
for not creating a major schedule.And would you really want that? Look
what happened to UU and TCU when they started major schedules. Such would be
BYU's fate. On field results say so.
@SoonerUte@Chris BPlease provide your evidence that BYU is not
one of top 64 athletic programs in the nation, and therefore not deserving of
inclusion.Losing to Utah is not evidence, if it were so then by
virtue of Utah's loss to Colorado they do not deserve to be included as
I have always believed BYU can compete with the best. I have no idea what can
be done to make the world of sports more fair. It would be fantastic to see BYU
playing with more top tier schools!!! I am annoyed with schools, programs and
athletes that think they are entitled--so let's give every school a chance
to compete, earn and reach their potential! I believe BYU has earned that
right! Your article is very thought provoking!!!
A couple of notes:1) As a BYU fan and member of the LDS church, I do not
like this article at all. One of the biggest problems in our culture is a sense
of entitlement and crying the victim. Since when are we a victim? We receive a
ridiculous amount of money each game ESPN broadcasts, we wanted Independence,
and we have been approached by multiple conferences about possible membership
(Big12, Big East, AAC, and Conference USA). 2)If the P5 schools want
to create a bigger D1 league without BYU...then we either need to play better so
they have to include us, or we accept the changing culture of college football
and go our way. They can do whatever they want. They have the money and power
right now.3)I honestly believe that BYU will be in the FCS division
in the coming years because football isn't the most important thing at BYU.
There isn't anything wrong with that. I would rather potentially win NCs at
that level then be a doormat in a P5 conference.
Don't think that raising a political ruckus or filing law suit will get BYU
into a power conference. Also, don't think that blaming others for their
Anti-Mormon bias will get it done.Nobody likes to hear people
complain.BYU needs to sell itself using its best asset--which is not
it's claims to having top-notch sports programs. It's the fan
base--the ability to put people in stadiums and in front of TVs. BYU needs to move first on the real issue--being in a power football
conference. If other sports stay in the WCC or wherever, that's fine--at
least in the short term.BYU also needs to give up on trying to
demand, for example, a TV deal similar to what Texas has if BYU wants to be in
the BIG 12. This whole matter may come down to what BYU wants more--inclusion
in a power football conference or the right to produce its own TV games. The
way things are going, there is a pretty obvious choice. And, being
more agreeable generally, and less self-absorbed, would probably help.
If BYU wants a seat at the big boy table, they need to earn it. The P5 teams
will ALL play a schedule that contains at least 9 other P5 schools. As an
independent BYU can freely choose their schedule. They freely choose to
schedule only a handful of P5 conference teams. Do fans really
think BYU should be treated as equal when they won't play an equal
schedule?Why is BYU considered a mid-major? Because they choose to
play a mid-major schedule.What jury would believe that BYU deserves
a share of the money when they haven't earned it? You'd have better
luck convincing a Tea Party Republican to expand welfare programs.
I am new to the world of commenting on articles. Wow. It is amazing how
quickly people are to insult each other. It is clearly not a place for polite
BrioAlpine, UT"@ MyPerspective:Since, as you
so frankly admitted, there are so many parts of this issue you don't yet
understand, it would probably be best for you to refrain from commenting from
such an unknowledgeable viewpoint..."aaaaaannnnndddd that
explains nothing at all. dhsalumSaint George, UT"@MyPerspectiveThat is literally the most inane comment
I've ever seen on here that wasn't from an obvious troll."Pac-12...a conference that is about much more than sports."From a byu fan yesterday..."I too, have tight connection to
not only the pac12 process, but to Holmoe's crew...Utes to the PAC12 was a
very deliberate decision. BYU and U were both in the discussion, but it came
down to more than football...even though most on the committee felt like Utah
had a slight edge there. It was the whoe package: academics, international
reputation, research, athletics, alumni audience. Two great universities both
doing great things." The reason we all know this is fact is
because it is exactly what the Pac-10 laid out as criteria when they invited the
UofU to join them.Definition of INANE: Facts that you don't
want to hear.
This article hits the nail on the head. BYU is not Ohio State or Alabama. BYU
fans get that. But they are also not Washington State, Rutgers, or Iowa State.
This is not a Utah vs. BYU issue. Utah has risen to the occasion at just the
right time to be included with the big boys. This is about how BYU by any
metric deserves to play with the big boys too. I have no doubt that BYU did
much of it's glory year damage with a weak schedule. Utah is showing how
hard that change would be for BYU as well. It is no secret why the PAC 12
isn't interested in BYU. Cultural fit? That's code for we don't
want religious schools. Fine. If the Big 12 doesn't want BYU, fine. But
seriously, let BYU be independent with access at least. They have shown the
commitment to sports to be allowed to compete at the highest levels.
Football is an elite sport and because of the money involved it is a very
private club for the most part. Those who control the sport are also equally
worried about self preservation. Everyone of them know that they can be beat on
a given saturday. If they schedule BYU they know that those chances raise
significantly. Usually BYU is a fairly good team. I am not saying that other
teams are not good. During some years BYU has had very good teams. Ask
Washington, Miami, Penn St. Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, or Kansas St. I just
want a level playing field. If you compared it with college rugby in the
divisions that exhist. BYU is just about as good as it gets on the college
level. Cal is also in that elite class. I don.t see any SEC or ACC rugby teams
scheduling either CAL or BYU in rugby. Why, because they know they will get
their clocks cleaned. Not saying that BYU would beat them in football. Just want
a level playing field.Jeff
Mormon Ute,I totally agree with your comments regarding size of
venue and the prevailing trends in that area. But those weren't the points
I was refuting from MyPerspective.To those who think that BYU turned
down an invite from the Big 12; it didn't happen. There was no invitation.
In negotiations I don't think BYU would have demanded Texas-like
accommodations; we simply don't have the clout and everybody admits it. As
to whether the TV rights were a deal-breaker, again I think people are only
speculating here. I don't think that was every singled out as the reason.
Sure BYU wants to use their new broadcast facility, but I don't believe for
a second that BYUtv would demand immediate rebroadcast rights. They have
clearly demonstrated that they are willing to wait days, or even weeks, to
rebroadcast a game. There is no way that a reasonable accommodation on TV
rights was not possible. Something else got in the way.
@ 311ute:Try reading the article again. BYU didn't claim they
deserve a seat at the P5 table. The writer of the article did. Also, Boise State
has nothing whatsoever to do with the article or the subject at hand. However, you are right about Utah not deserving their PAC12 membership. Based
on their performance since joining, they are way over their heads as they
compete to try to stay out of the conference basement year after year. Try harder to understand what's going on and to catch up to speed. Or at
least stay relevant to the given topic. Being off-topic doesn't help your
argument at all.
@ slcftball:It's obvious that you (like Chris B and
MyPerspective) failed to read the entire article. It articulated in very
objective terms how BYU's entire sports program has been ranked in the
Top-25 in the nation 17 of the last 21 years and #11 (Utah #43) in the most
recent rankings... all based on on-the-field performance and nothing subjective.
There is whole lot more to sports that just football. But even in
football, BYU has finished the season ranked nationally higher than Utah in most
of the past decade. And there is whole lot more to any program than just a
single head-to-head game each season. You are putting too much
emphasis on just a few things and not catching the big picture at all.@ brs27:BYU has much higher average attendance to almost every
sport there is than Utah, with the possible exception of gymnastics. But even
with just the big ones... football and basketball, BYU easily wins that
attendance average. And not just against Utah. It's one of the highest (if
not the highest) in the intermountain region.It's you that brought up
BYU saying that they "deserve" a seat at the P5 table may be well
intentioned but it comes off badly. This type of attitude will only accelerate
the exclusion, not deter from it. Look at Boise St, are they
screaming from the kids table? Nope, they are just making the best of which they
have. Utah didn't earn their place in the P12, they were at the right place
at the right time. While the 2 BCS games helped, Utah was a great fit for the
P12 on AND off the field. It was a natural fit, it wasn't
"deserved".I disagree with the articles tactics in bringing
up discrimination, it's a losing argument.
@MyPerspectiveThat is literally the most inane comment I've
ever seen on here that wasn't from an obvious troll. "Pac-12...a conference that is about much more than sports."Utah's academics are not better than BYU's. Each school has certain
programs and certain schools that are better, but overall they are essentially
equal. The Pac 12 got the salt lake market while not having to bringing in a
church school. Anyone who followed expansion knows there was no chance BYU would
be invited to the pac because of their association with the Mormon church. "byu brings nothing but a baseball field, a big stadium that
isn't full, and a basketball arena that isn't full.."Do you really want to discuss basketball attendance? Utah is not even in
BYU's league in bball attendance. In case you didn't know.. 16,000 per
game is a lot more than 8000. Plus the Marriott
Center>>>>Huntsman Center. And why is having 40,000 in a full
football stadium better than 60,000 in a 65,000 seat stadium??
@ MyPerspective:Since, as you so frankly admitted, there are so many
parts of this issue you don't yet understand, it would probably be best for
you to refrain from commenting from such an unknowledgeable viewpoint. Just let things work out on their own, or at least try coming up to speed
before trying to comment. The issue will then make more sense to you and your
comments will probably then make more sense to the rest of us.
Re area52Proof? As a BYU/LDS fan and member, I think this article
is stupid. We have gone 2-13 against ranked opponents in our last 15 games. We
have lost 4 in a row to our rival. We couldn't beat the sixth place team in
the PAC in our bowl game. In the national picture we are but a
Minnesota. Good but not great. We don't carry the clout we once did.If we were smart, we would join the MTN West. Win that league and go
for the 6th spot in the BCS games that are open and we could get. And fellow
fans don't give me anymore cow dung that we will be in the final 4 Natl
I don't think BYU will push to hard since it may make the LDS Church look
bad and it will not take a chance on. The Ute's will be in the higher
conference and hopefully will start playing better because it has made the State
of Utah look bad for the last few years.
On Merit, BYU belongs: A third motive for the discrimination is:3.
Religion. Yes I said religion. Many of the schools in the SEC and
ACC are in the heart of the 'Bible Belt'. I lived their for years.
It is absolutely true that there are wonderful Christians in that part of the
country. It is also absolutely true that many of those same kind
Christians are continuously faced with preachers and family members teaching
them that Mormons are evil. Anti-Mormon sentiment is very, very real. It is
naive not to realize that some of the powers that be in the 'power 5'
have been taught since they were children to despise and avoid Mormons and to
certainly NOT do anything that would promote the cause of Mormonism. To some,
(not all) of the decision makers, including BYU would be assisting the cause of
the evil Mormons. I know it is ugly and everyone wants to believe that
significant religious bias against Mormons doesn't exist. It does.Racism is real, homophobia is real, sexism is real, and religious
bigotry is real. Fighting those things is a long, expensive, and ugly process
but it is better than stupidly denying their existence.
I hate pulling the religion card. BYU is not looked down upon because they are
run by the LDS church. Sure, that has some consequences (such as not playing on
Sunday), but no major conference is saying, "We don't like Mormons, so
no invites for you". Our two biggest problems are that we haven't had
a "wow" season or two, even though we have been pretty consistent over
the years, and we are difficult to work with. I believe BYU should always hold
its ground as far as Sunday play is concerned, and other honor code or religious
beliefs, But we can't demand to make as much money as we think we deserve.
If we went Big 12, we shouldn't demand as much of the pie as Texas or OU.
That's just ridiculous.
Mormons as a group are sometimes not as assertive as they should be. The
argument was made eloquently that BYU most definitely belongs in the upper
echelons of college sports, but due to bigotry (and whatever other excuses Utah
fans want to come up with), BYU is being shut out. It is time that
not only powerful members of the Church and supporters of BYU start becoming
more aggressive in the quest to get BYU included, but the masses as well.This article is dead on.
brs27,Interesting you talk about filling BYU's big arena and
stadium. The current trend is downsizing. Due to the high quality of the
broadcasts and the fact that nearly every game is televised fewer people are
going to the games. Most of the newer college sports venues are smaller than
those built years ago, but they are nicer in their the accommodations they offer
the fans as a reward for making the effort to actually go to the games. Number
of seats isn't as important any more as the quality of the experience.
This is one of the best articles I've read in this paper in ages. Well
done!If BYU took this case to court as an anti-trust case,
This article give ample evidence that based on athletic Merit BYU belongs. The
discrimination has several motives. Two of them are:1. Money and
greed. 2. Ego and fear. Including BYU is admitting that one more
school belongs in your group of supposedly ultra elite and vastly superior
athletic programs. It is easier to push BYU down than to face the fear of
losing to them. I don't believe the top half of the 'Power 5'
conferences are afraid to lose to BYU but Pitt, Virginia, North Carolina,
Kentucky, Arkansas, Wake Forest, etc.. are afraid to lose to BYU.
If reports are accurate, BYU turned down an invitation to the Big12. You're
argument at this point is nearly moot.
P5 TV contracts include the provision for possible football games on Sunday.
The likelihood of that happening is pretty remote, but Utah nearly had a Sunday
game scheduled vs USC in Los Angeles in their first year in the PAC when it
looked like the NFL would be on strike. The P5 and their TV
partners want that flexibility, even if it's not often used.When the Big-12 needed to quickly stabilize after seeing the defections of
Missouri and Texas A&M to the SEC, Sunday play obviously was not on the
table with BYU, and the Big-12 wanted a full member in all sports, so they
quickly invited TCU.If BYU is excluded from the P5 level of
football, BYU fans should own it, should accept the fact the big conferences are
reluctant to renegotiate their TV contracts for BYU. Keeping the Sabbath Holy
should placate and anger among BYU fans.
I don't understand any of this. I don't understand why the Utah media
is compelled to continue stoking the fire; I don't understand why byu fans
feel entitled to a handout; and I especially don't understand what
scheduling has to do with exposure. Independence was sold to byu
fans first and foremost as the best way to get exposure. A goal that would be
achieved through a newly forged partnership with ESPN. Well, byu has that. The
notion of being able to play any team anywhere in the country was embarrassingly
oversold but with the good graces of ESPN, the rest of the goal is in tact. So go do it. Holmoe had no business kicking the 'we're byu
and you have to give us an exception' hornets nest. In fact, it's
beginning to look like exposure was never truly the goal to begin with. Holmoe
doesn't know what he wants and is presently leading byu athletics down the
same path he lead Cal football which, by the way, is still in recovery mode.
Chris B, Your constant condescending references to "Us" and
"Our conference" are well beyond Amusing and almost to Pathetic. When
Utah demonstrates the ability to be much more than a doormat in the Pac-12 you
can demonstrate a little ownership. Until then, humility and gratitude might be
more appropriate.MyPerspective,I'm not sure you
know what you're talking about. I may not either, since I won't waste
the time to research the details (I'm sure someone here can supply the
stats), but you cite an unfilled stadium and basketball arena as
"disqualifications" for BYU. If my memory is accurate, I think BYU
Basketball has one of the largest home attendance records in the country over
the last few years, and I'm very confident that BYU Football is WELL ABOVE
the average attendance of the "Big 5" conference teams. Even if the
stadium isn't maxed out, I'd rather have game attendance of 62,000 in
a 64,000 seat stadium than fill every spot in a 45,000 seat venue. Just
The big picture is about discrimination of other college programs in the NCAA.
What right does certain conferences have to create a monopoly of college
football for the intent to control the direction of money channeled in the
college football industry? There are laws in our country that prohibit this
type of action. How would you like just one company controlling all cell phone
service? We would be freaking out. Our laws prohibit this from happening because
it has happened at the turn of the 20th century. Unfortunately, the NCAA and
our legal system is for some reason turning a blind eye to what is happening
right before our eyes. There must be a lot of money being passed under the table
on this one! I smell major corruption! There are many other college football
programs that should have the same opportunities as the so called elite--by the
way--whoever or what stuck up person decided to call themselves elite? The NCAA
and the feds need to put the clamps on groups, individuals or conferences
combining their efforts to discriminate, control the money and hold themselves
above of other schools programs.
It'll be a very slow road though. When did Lavell testify before Congress
about the BCS and when did the BCS actually change? The haves continue to
dictate the future of college football and the have-nots will just have to take
the punches. I wouldn't be too surprised to see BYU pull out of football
sponsorship altogether; they could then sue the NCAA for lost millions in
I agree BYU deserves to be included with the best programs in college sports,
but I believe there are multiple reasons they are being increasingly pushed
aside and some are of BYU's own making. The unwillingness to compromise on
broadcast rights is one of the major ones. Just as the Utes have had to accept
a smaller conference payout in the early going of their Pac 12 membership, BYU
must accept less control over it's broadcast rights to get into a
conference. Another reason is the power conferences and schools are stressing
the importance of membership. Notre Dame has even gotten the message and joined
the ACC in all sports with an agreement to play 5 football games a year.
BYU's administration seems reluctant to accept this and may have waited too
long. No matter how loud BYU cries, they will have to compromise of some
issues. Certainly not on anything principle based or religious, but when it
comes to controlling broadcast rights and money BYU cannot continue to act like
they belong near the top of the Power 5 conferences. They need to accept their
position near the bottom and then work their way up from within.
This article and most posters may have missed the primary argument that keeps
BYU from top tier consideration. Pure and simple, it is the policy of
practicing our religion by allowing all those involved in sports to keep the
sabbath day holy according to the dictates of their own consciences. It's
money. It's special consideration. It's "we are the only ones
preserving religious freedom for our sporting participants". It's a
problem that won't go away I commend the brethren who do not cave in.
Sports are not as important as the principles of the gospel. It would be
inconceivable that the church would remove religious freedom to preserve
football. That makes no sense.
@ International Cougar FanToo bad byu can't beat Utah. Does byu deserve to be in the top 65? Of course it does. byu needs to
get into one of the big 5 conferences and to do that they'll have to agree
to the terms and conditions of the conference to which they belong or continue
as an independent and do they best they can. Can't have it both ways.
Seems pretty obvious BYU belongs. If they were not passed over by the Pac12 for
social reasons, then what are the reasons? Seems to be the only reason that
I agree with this article. There is a fine line between being the conservative,
humble university which displays characteristics of being "slow to
anger" and being push-overs. It's not difficult to see that BYU is
hated in many ways, and the exclusion from Power 5 is blatant evidence. It is
illogical. It may have nothing to do with religion at all, but any university
athletic program with a similar resume being excluded from the top-tier would
result in outrage from its fans and supporters. I know we are the "good
mormon boys" but I agree that it is time that we make our voice heard.
YouAreKiddingSalt Lake City, UT"Please do us all a favor.
Please provide us with the empirical evidence that justified Utah's
inclusion in AND BYU's exclusion from a P5 conference based on "on the
field" performance."You are cherry picking your own
criteria. byu's strategy for the last 50 years...sports. Nobody said byu
lacks 'athletic prowess,' a criterion of the Pac-10. The problem is,
byu brings nothing but a baseball field, a big stadium that isn't full, and
a basketball arena that isn't full to the table. That's it. And that
simply is not good enough for the Pac-12...a conference that is about much more
The best thing that BYU can do is win games on the schedule and subsequent bowl
games. That is what they can control. Don't worry about what you can not
control. Too bad utah can no longer win enough games to go to a bowl game.
Maybe it's time to get into a conference.
Chris B.Please do us all a favor. Please provide us with the
empirical evidence that justified Utah's inclusion in AND BYU's
exclusion from a P5 conference based on "on the field" performance.Please remember, being the anti-BYU doesn't count as evidence.
Chris B.Your comments are pretty comical LOL This article states the
reasons why BYU deserves to be in with the rest of the Big Boys and the article
has some really good evidence. Why don’t you provide the evidence against
letting BYU in and not a personal bias as your reasons?
Bigotry is alive and well and comes in many forms. Just ask those who are Utah
fans because they hate BYU! (Might be interesting to note I attended Utah and
loved my time there, still a fan)
And I thought the previous articles showed the byu meltdown!This is
just downright comical. All mid-majors are essentially division II
at this point, with virtually no reason to believe they will ever be anything
other than that.Our conference(the pac 12) sent out a letter to all
other big boy universities outlining our plan to further separate ourselves from
the mid-majors.And its going to happen.We(the power 5)
are leaving mid-majors behind and establishing a new division I essentially.Wyoming, Utah state, byu, and all other mid-majors can form their own
playoffs or whatever, we don't care.But you are OUT!And for good reason
This is really getting sad, and funny for me to watch. The whole
reason we haven't invited byu to our conference and the whole reason no
other big boy conference sees byu as anything as a mid-major is because of the
collective byu attitude that they are bigger/better than they are.As
far as lawsuits?LOl!Byu doesn't have legal
authority to demand we include them in the power 5 any more than San Diego state
has legal authority to demand access to the Pac 12 championship