continued More people watched South Florida, Utah St, Kentucky, San
Diego St, Cincinnati, Rutgers, and SMU (just to name a few) play football than
watched Utah.Not something I would expect from the "big
brother", or the "top dog" in the state.Points #5: I
don't hate Utah. In fact, I like K Whitt, and I love that Coach
Krystkowiak is reviving the great Runnin' Utes program. I think that Utah
is a perfect fit for the PAC 12, and I'm glad they have that opportunity to
try to improve their national image on that stage.That's not to
say that I don't enjoy seeing the Utes lose, or enjoy trash-talking with
the BYU haters that appears on BYU articles.It's a long
off-season, so it's fun to have these types of discussions. But in summary, it will take a lot more than 2 BCS wins, 4 in a row, and 9 of
12 to convince me that Utah is now the "big brother", or "top
dog" in state.Go Cougars!
@MormonUtePoint #2: I then pointed out that if head-to-head wins and
achieving top 5 rankings during a decade's time is all it takes for Utah to
be BYU's big brother, then you'd better tell Notre Dame that they are
the little brother to Boston College, since BC dominated Notre Dame from
1999-2008, winning 7 of 8 rivalry games and achieving a couple of top 10
rankings during that time.Yet NOBODY would think that Notre Dame was
ever Boston College's little brother.Point #3: I next pointed
out that BYU is ranked #25 on ESPN's list of Most Prestigious College
Football programs of all-time. Utah checked in at #43, and this was in 2009, at
the peak of Utah's "vaunted" history. Doesn't seem like the
little brother would be ranked ahead of the big brother here, but maybe I'm
wrong.Point #4: Finally, I noted TV ratings from last year. BYU had
more than 3 times as many people watch them in 2013 as watched Utah, and the
BYU/Utah game was the highest rated game for the Utes all season, while it was
only the 5th highest for BYU.continued
@MormonUte "Seems to me the Utes have won the rivalry game enough times in
the past 21 years for BYU fans to back off the little brother references and
show some respect to their rival."When have I not shown respect
to Utah? Perhaps you didn't read all of my posts in their entirety (which
I don't blame you, I had quite a few posts on here responding to trolls, so
it gets pretty tedious reading it all :)).Here's a quick
recap:I was responding to the statement that BYU was Utah's little
brother. I used some stats and facts to show why I believe this is not the
case.Point #1: The BCS era (1998-2013) is the best era in
Utah's football history. It is a very mediocre one in BYU's history.
Comparing the two teams, BYU and Utah had nearly identical accomplishments, with
the very notable exception of 2 BCS wins for Utah and a 10-6 advantage in the
rivalry. I complimented the Utes on the great achievement of going to 2 BCS
bowls, but simply pointed out that Utah's best era was basically the
equivalent of a very mediocre era in BYU football.continued...
navelvetWinning the rivalry seems to be the only thing Utah fans
care about since joining the PAC 12. Utah fans certainly don't
seem to care about playing in a bowl anymore, which makes the whole playoff
discussion meaningless, as far as the Utes are concerned.There's no question that the PAC 12 was looking for cannon fodder when it
invited Colorado and Utah to keep Washington State company in the conference
LonestarRunner:"The Utes were invited to be cannon fodder for
the big boys of the PAC 12 because they are located in a decent-sized television
market in close proximity to the base PAC 12 footprint, nothing more."That's only something cougars say to make themselves feel better
about being on the losing side of the former rivalry 75% of the time over these
past dozen years. If the Pac-10 were looking for "cannon fodder" in
"a decent-sized television market" in "close proximity to the base
PAC 12 footprint"........where's UNLV's invitation?
Mormon UteSince when is losing a head-to-head versus Utah of
national interest? 14 of the last 17 BYU-Utah games have been decided by a
touchdown or less in the closing minutes or in OT. The fact that Utah won a
slight majority (8 of 14) is only a big deal to the kids on the hill.Who cares about active players on NFL rosters if you're not even good
enough to qualify for a bow?The Utes were invited to be cannon
fodder for the big boys of the PAC 12 because they are located in a decent-sized
television market in close proximity to the base PAC 12 footprint, nothing
more.Get over yourselves.Five lifetime AP Top 25
finishes is minuscule on a national scale.btw, Steve Young would
have easily been the 1st overall pick in the NFL draft if he hadn't signed
with USFL.Alex Smith wasn't even good enough to garner a single
national individual player award and he finished farther down in the Heisman
voting than 4 or 5 BYU quarterbacks.Your problem is U have no
history prior to 2004 worth talking about.
BlueCoug and Skywalker,All those accolades are just great, but BYU
is showing significant signs of fading from the national spotlight. In the past
21 years in addition to winning the head to head contest 2/3 of the time, the
Utes were the first team in the entire country to be invited to and win a BCS
bowl game. Then were the first to be invited a second time and also win. The
Utes currently have more active players on NFL rosters than BYU has and were the
first Utah school to have a number 1 overall NFL draft pick. The Utes were
invited to join and accepted the invitation to the Pac 12 giving our sports
teams unprecedented access to the best competition in the country week in and
week out.During that same time BYU has lost to the Utes 2/3 of the
time and only played in second tier bowl games at best. BYU has struggled to
place players in the NFL and only recently had a couple drafted in the first
round. BYU has also failed to gain access to any of the major conferences.
Those are the facts and hiding behind history can't change them.
truecoug1,5 year history? Lets look all the way back to 1993, 21
years. The record for that period stands at 14 - 7 in favor of Utah. There are
two 4 year win streaks during that time for Utah and one 3 year win streak to
start it off. Seems to me the Utes have won the rivalry game enough times in
the past 21 years for BYU fans to back off the little brother references and
show some respect to their rival.
2ferYou're talking pure speculation; the first playoff
hasn't even been held and non-power conference schools have not been
excluded from the playoffs.What "might" happen in the future
is pure speculation that nobody really knows. The landscape of major college
football is constantly changing, and nobody knows what the ramifications of the
next team move might be.Who's to say that any move to a
4-conference, 64-team division, won't just take the top 64 teams,
regardless of current conference? What makes Vanderbilt, or Duke, or Indiana, or
Utah, any more "worthy" of being included in that new division, than
@ BlueCougAgain, you guys completely ignore the real issue.Utah is in a P5 conference; and therefor has potential.BYU is not
in a P5 conference or even a G5 conference. If they don't get in,
they're done. Past accomplishments won't matter.That is
the bottom line.
2ferOnly 21 schools, BYU included, have won a major college football
national championship since 1984, and only 18 have won both AP and Coaches
national championships.It's laughable that Utah fans mock BYU
for "having a great run", (past tense), when the Utes have never had a
great run.BYU has finished in the Top 25 in 17 of the last 34
seasons (50%), including 5 of 9 AP/Coaches, and four straight AP Top 25 finishes
during the Bronco/Kyle era.The Utes, in their entire history, have
never had more than 2 straight AP Top 25 Finishes.Who's really
on the outside looking in here, the team the some have speculated
"might" get left out, or the team that's never been "in"?
@ Marked it DownBYU had a great run. I've never disputed that.
Utah's glory days weren't really the point of my post though, were
they? The fact that you completely ignored my point about BYU being stuck on
the outside with major changes coming to the structure of CFB is al anybody
needs to now. Your program is in trouble and everyone sees it; even the
die-hard Cougar fans. Not many big brothers play in the lower division...
2ferAP Top 25 FinishesBYU 17Utah 5Bronco
4Kyle 2-------------11+ Win SeasonsBYU 11Utah 2Bronco 3Kyle 1So, when exactly were
Utah's "glory days"?At Utah's current rate of one
AP Top 25 finish every 15.6, it will take the Utes another 187 years just to
match BYU's current 17 lifetime AP Top 25 finishes.Talk about
little brothers...BYU will make the playoffs before Utah plays in
the Rose Bowl.Mark it Down!
@ Best Lil Brothers / TheSportsAuthorityThere were not many national
accomplishments early in Utah's football history. But that is completely
irrelevant. Despite the lack of national accomplishments, the Utes towered over
BYU for those 77 years. Thus making Utah the big brother. BYU's glory
days have long since faded away, and the Cougs are back to being the 2nd or 3rd
best program in the state. Once again, Utah is the big brother. The fact is the way CFB is heading, BYU is in trouble. They are on the
outside of the P5 conferences, and they were not able to secure a playoff
exception like Notre Dame was. BYU needs to find a way in soon, or it's
program is going to be relegated to the lower division. If/when that happens,
it will be the definitive end of the rivalry with Utah on the inside, and BYU on
Tajeminca and Omaha10,Your attempts to rewrite history hit up
against what really happened and was happening years before the PAC 10 expanded.
Go back and read what Tom Hansen, the former PAC 10 Commissioner, said about
Utah and Colorado being in their expansion cross hairs long before Larry Scott
came along. Also, Chip Brown covered the whole expansion thing pretty well.
How soon things get twisted after five years.
@NavalVet "It was written by a rabid cougar fan on a cougar blog that only
cougar fans read. And of course, in typical cougarnation fashion, he failed to
cite the sources of his research."Um, I guess you missed the
part where he linked to a SportsMediaWatch article that listed all of the TV
ratings for the 2013-2014 season, along with the totals of how many people
watched the game. Pretty easy to sum those up for each team and post the
numbers.But I'm sure you're right, he's just some
random blogger with inside ties to BYU that makes up all of his stuff and just
posts made-up "facts" to make Utah look bad...kind of like Chip Brown
over at Orangebloods saying that Utah would be in the Pac 12 IF Texas A&M
decided to leave for the SEC, right?The Utes are a small-time
program with the same approximate viewership last year (3.3 million) as USF (4
million)...or a little less, I guess. Go Cougars!
@NavalVet "No, I said your victory over USU wasn't a "better
quality win" than Utah's because it was the "same team".
"The fact that your victory over USU was with a larger margin was explained
in that you didn't face the same USU team we did."Wait,
I'm confused...U said that BYU's win over USU wasn't a better
quality win than Utah's because it was the "same team" Utah played.
You then said BYU's victory over USU by a larger margin was explained
because it WASN'T the same team Utah played.So which one is it?
I'm really confused here.And surely you, a great, knowledgable
sports fan, don't think that beating a team at home is regarded as highly
as beating that same team on the road, do U?Go Cougars!
phoenix"In light of what Utah has accomplished so far in the PAC
12, only one winning 8-5 season, it's laughable that Utah fans even think
that the Utes warrant inclusion in any playoff discussion."They
only think they belong.----------------"We
don't use that as our metric of success."LOL at your state
of denial. Utah fans are so totally obsessed with beating BYU that they rushed
the field THREE times after Utah's last win in SLC.The truth
is, you'd rather beat BYU, than go to a bowl.
navelvetGive it a rest.According to Sagarin's
rankings:#35 BYU beat #33 Texas, #37 Georgia Tech, #41 Utah State,
#47 Boise State and #50 Houston#34 Utah beat #5 Stanford, #35 BYU and #41
Utah StateEVERY team has to deal with injuries throughout the season
- BYU lost BOTH projected starting corners before the season even began and
BYU's starting QB was coming off of season-ending knee surgery.Despite your desperate spin:BYU had FIVE wins versus Top 50 teams;
Utah only had THREE.
re: Utes-Best Lil Brothers"In the 77 years of Utah's
"big brotherhood" from 1894 to 1971, can you cite even one significant
achievement on a national scale that the Utes accomplished?"Do
you really expect twofer or navelvet to embarrass themselves by trying to answer
that?I could go into the extenuating circumstances for why BYU
struggled head-to-head in the first 50 years of the rivalry, but the truth is,
Utah was nothing more than a mediocre team beating up on an even worse team.
When it comes to actual accomplishments on a national scale, there weren't
any.That's why the only thing they'll ever talk about is
head-to-head records and lots of conference championships in conferences that
weren't anywhere close to as good as the Big Sky conference.Utah's conference championship record since joining a decent conference
is proof of that - only 6 WAC/MWC championships in the last half century, since
truecoug1:"I just think it's funny because it shows that
Utah's BEST era in football is equivalent to a very mediocre era in BYU
football."I think it's funny that you'd try to sell
the notion that the no-BCS-bowl-busting team who is 3-9 vs. their big brother on
the Hill these past dozen meetings is somehow "equivalent" to their
2-time BCS bowl winning Pac-12 big brother, who OWNS them via a quarter century
lead in the all-time series.
R.A.W.:"BYU played USU October 4th in Logan. BYU was without 2
play makers in LB Spencer Hadley and KR Adam Hine. Keaton was injured in the
first quarter and did not return. BYU wins 31-14 on the road."Again, those are not "impact" players."No response to
my final point? Does Jamaal Williams missing the majority of the Utah game
degrade your victory over the Y?"Nope. Utah was already leading
13-3 by that point, and it isn't as if he were the leading rusher in that
game, nor was he close to breaking the century mark. Plus, few teams were
successful running the ball vs. Utah.
truecoug1:"I just think it's hilarious that U refuse to
admit that BYU's win over USU was a 'better quality win than
Utah's win over the Aggies was, because it was a blowout and because it was
in Logan. That was the original point for me."No, I said your
victory over USU wasn't a "better quality win" than Utah's
because it was the "same team". Go back and see if you can find the
work "push" in my comment. That means it isn't better or worse.The fact that your victory over USU was with a larger margin was
explained in that you didn't face the same USU team we did. Even R.A.W.
acknowledged that. And I know you don't really believe that
the Y losing their #2 rusher vs. Utah midway through the 3rd Qtr was the same as
the Aggies losing their #1 QB late in the 1st. You're just trying to
overcompensate by refusing to admit that which is obvious because it
doesn't make the cougars look dominant, and you can't handle that.
skywalkerre: "This is what DOMINATION really looks like"Adding a few items to your list: final national rankings and
championships* conference champion+ national championBYU's period of nationally ranked DOMINATION1979 #13/#12 BYU 27,
Utah 0 - WAC champion1980 #12/#12 *BYU 56, Utah 61981 #13/#11 *BYU
56, Utah 281982 unrnkd *BYU 17, Utah 121983 #7/#7 *BYU 55, Utah 71984 #1/#1 +*BYU 24, Utah 141985 #16/#17 *BYU 38, Utah 28head-to-head BYU 7 Utah 0conf champs BYU 7, Utah 0Top 25 finishes
BYU 6, Utah 0-----------------Utah's period of
nationally ranked "domination"2003 #21/#21 *Utah 3, BYU 02004 #4/#5 *Utah 52, BYU 212005 unrnkd Utah 41, BYU 342006 unrnkd
Utah 31, #16/#15 *BYU 332007 unrnkd Utah 10, #14/#15 *BYU 172008
#2/#4 *Utah 48, #25/#21 BYU 242009 #18/#18 Utah 23, #12/#12 BYU 26head-to-head Utah 4, BYU 3conf champs Utah 3, BYU 2Top 25
finishes Utah 4, BYU 4
Correction:Jamaal was injured in the 3rd quarter, so did not miss
the "Majority" of the game as I stated. But that does not change the
impact of his loss. What Read-Option offense works well without your star
running back? Especially in the shadow of the goal post?It is also
worth mentioning that BYU was without 2 year starter and SR Linebacker Spencer
Hadley as well as All-Time leading receiver Cody Hoffman being hankered by a
hamstring injury.So the question remains... Does this "injury
depleted" BYU team degrade the Utes 2013 victory?I am sure you
will have a nice long response full of excuses of why that is not the same
thing, but you will be wasting your time. Honestly, I have no
problem acknowledging Utah's current (10 year) and overall dominance in the
Rivalry. Utah is consistently better coached, more talented, and better
prepared for the rivalry game each year under Whittingham and Meyer. And I wish
both Utah and BYU were in the PAC-12, and no I don't think BYU would be
doing any better than the Utes currently are. See, I can call it
both ways. Now You try!
To qualify for the playoffs, the Utes/Cougars are going to have to win at least
11 games.Bronco has had more 11+ win seasons during the Bronco/Kyle
era, than the Utes have had during their entire history.11+ win
seasons:Bronco 3Kyle 1In light of what Utah has
accomplished so far in the PAC 12, only one winning 8-5 season, it's
laughable that Utah fans even think that the Utes warrant inclusion in any
@NavalVet "Because YOU said, "U DO realize that teams almost always play
better at home than on the road, a universal truth across all sports,
right?" in a discussion related to series between Utah, USU, and the Y. You
should care because it was YOUR argument."Again, your spin is
remarkable. The discussion was regarding Rockwell's statement that BYU
beating USU was a better quality win than Utah beating USU was last year,
because BYU played at Logan, while Utah got the Aggies in SLC.U are
the one who turned it into a head-to-head match-up between BYU and UtahI have no problem with stating that Utah has been better than BYU during the
BCS era. I have showed all of the stats comparing the two teams, and Utah has a
very slight edge because of the 2 BCS bowls and 10-6 advantage in the
rivalry.I just think it's funny because it shows that
Utah's BEST era in football is equivalent to a very mediocre era in BYU
It's funny how Utah fans like to claim that any "power conference"
team or team with a winning record that the Utes beat should automatically be
regarded as a "quality win".Yet, when BYU beats an Oklahoma,
or Texas, or Washington, or Oregon, or Oregon State, or any other "power
conference" team, or team with a winning record, or common BYU/Utah
opponent, Utah fans carefully dissect every aspect of BYU's opponent - home
or away, injuries or not, early in the season or late - to explain away
BYU's win.The hypocrisy and inconsistency that constantly flows
from the hill is laughable.The simple truth is: BYU beat
FIVE quality, Top 50 opponents, last season. Utah only beat THREE.BYU finished 8-5 and played in their 9th straight bowl.Utah finished 5-7
and played in their 2nd straight couch potato bowl.(continued)
Naval Vet,Neither you or I have control over fans on either side of
the rivalry that are unwilling or unable to "call it both ways". You are
in control of what you type in your comments though, so that is a poor excuse.
What is the point in comparing the quality of a win? There is no
such thing as comparing "apples to apples" in College Football, because
the fact is there are just not enough constant variables to measure. Teams
change as the season progresses, either with continual improvement or in
decline. Utah played USU for the season opener @ RES. Both teams
were healthy and had weeks of preparation for that game. Utah lost Kenneth Scott
for season. Utah wins 30-26 at home.BYU played USU October 4th in
Logan. BYU was without 2 play makers in LB Spencer Hadley and KR Adam Hine.
Keaton was injured in the first quarter and did not return. BYU wins 31-14 on
the road.Like I said. Not "Apples to Apples"No
response to my final point? Does Jamaal Williams missing the majority of the
Utah game degrade your victory over the Y? Can't have it both
truecoug1:That whole "leather helmet era" argument is old
and unoriginal...not to mention useless, since the "leather helmet era"
ended by the 1950s. And since 1950, Utah still leads the series 33-30-1.And FWIW, there had been some additional modifications to the football
helmet since 2002, when Riddell released the "Revolution". So what
should we say NOW? That in the "post-Revolution era" the cougars are
3-9 vs. their big brother on the Hill?
twofer/navelvet"Outside of the 20 years between 1972 and 1992;
Utah has always been the big brother..."In the 77 years of
Utah's "big brotherhood" from 1894 to 1971, can you cite even one
significant achievement on a national scale that the Utes accomplished?Take your time little brothers, we'll wait.
truecoug1:"That's probably because you didn't care to
look it up, since it reflects poorly on Utah's status as "big
brother". And lol, I love how much this has sent you into a worried
frenzy."Sadly for you, it didn't send me into a frenzy.
And the reason why I'd never seen those numbers before, was because it
wasn't published in a reputable 3rd part publication. It was written by a
rabid cougar fan on a cougar blog that only cougar fans read. And of course, in
typical cougarnation fashion, he failed to cite the sources of his research. So
I don't know how true and accurate his numbers are.What I DO
know is, the "big brother" isn't the one with the largest
television audience. It's the one who keeps beating up on the little
brother. And based on our series record -- in both the all-time AND recent
series -- big brother = Utah.Spin on little bro.
@NavalVet I have no problem with saying Utah was the better team
last year. They beat BYU on the field and finished ahead of the Cougars in the
Sagarin rankings. I just think it's hilarious that U refuse to
admit that BYU's win over USU was a "better quality win" than
Utah's win over the Aggies was, because it was a blowout and because it was
in Logan. That was the original point for me. Your desperate
spinning of Chuckie going down as having a huge impact on the BYU/USU game, and
then subsequent hypocrisy in turning around and saying Jamaal Williams leaving
the game would have had zero impact on the outcome in the BYU/Utah game has just
been priceless entertainment!Utah is small-time, bro. I know U so
desperately want to be considered big-time now that you've beaten BYU a few
times, and U want to be recognized as a bigger program, but it just ain't
happening.I don't think anyone thinks Boston College is a
bigger program than Notre Dame, even though the Eagles trounced the Irish for
the better part of a decade. Except maybe U :)
truecoug1:"In 2013, it was at BYU. In the last 10 years, Utah
has played 6 games at LES, and has won 4 of them and lost 2."Wrong answer. The question was how did the last 10 games turn out "at
that site"; as in "in Provo". And the answer isn't Utah went
4-2. It's Utah went 7-3. "Question: why should I
care?"Because YOU said, "U DO realize that teams almost
always play better at home than on the road, a universal truth across all
sports, right?" in a discussion related to series between Utah, USU, and the
Y. You should care because it was YOUR argument."The mere fact
that U use beating BYU as your metric of success shows just how much of a little
brother Utah is to BYU."We don't use that as our metric of
success. We just lord it over our little brother because he's the one
talking all that trash, and it's the best way to put you all back in your
place.And that "place" in midmajorsville, on the outside
looking in, noses pressed up against the glass, wishing your were as relevant as
2fer/navelvet"Outside of the 20 years between 1972 and 1992;
Utah has always been the big brother...."BYU accomplished more
on a national scale in those 20 years (1972 to 1992), than the Utes have
accomplished in their entire history, in fact, BYU accomplished far more from
1979 to 1984, than the Utes have EVER accomplished!Let's
review, BYU 1979 to 1985 versus Utah 1894 to 2014:National
ChampionshipsBYU 1Utah 0AP Top 25 FinishesBYU 6Utah 5AP/Coaches Top 12 FinishesBYU 5Utah 311+ Win SeasonsBYU 6Utah 2Future National College
Football Hall of Fame PlayersBYU 3 - Marc Wilson (1996), Jim McMahon
(1999), Steve Young (2001)Utah 0Sammy Baugh Trophy Winners
(nation's best passer)BYU 4 - Marc Wilson (1979), Jim McMahon (1981),
Steve Young (1983), Robbie Bosco (1984)Utah 0Davey
O'Brien Award Winners (nation's best quarterback)BYU 2 - Jim
McMahon (1981), Steve Young (1983)Utah 0Head-to-head 1979 to
1985BYU 7Utah 0This is what DOMINATION really looks
like:BYU 27, Utah 0BYU 56, Utah 6BYU 56, Utah 28BYU 17,
Utah 12BYU 55, Utah 7BYU 24, Utah 14BYU 38, Utah 28Average:BYU 39, Utah 14
@NavalVetOh my goodness, lol, your last few comments have been
hilarious! U start off by talking about huge of an impact Chuckie Keeton surely
would have made in the BYU game since he went down in the later stages of the
first quarter (all while ignoring the fact that he had already thrown a
pick-six, gained a whopping 43 yards of offense, the USU defense gave up 24
points to the BYU O in 3 quarters and BYU's defense gave up more than 30
points once all season long).U then dismiss the loss of Jamaal
Williams, on pace to become BYU's leading running back of all-time, as
trivial on the outcome of the Utah game, since it happened in the 3rd quarter
and because he's a RB while Chuckie is a QB.Pretty sure BYU
could have used Jamaal in the 3 times they got into the RZ between the period he
went out and the fourth quarter.Typical hypocrisy.
R.A.W.:P.S. The Jamaal Williams example doesn't wash.
Note:(1) Williams was not lost during the 1st Half. He was lost
midway through the 3rd-Qtr.(2) Williams is a RB. Keeton was a QB.
Losing a QB hurts a lot worse than losing a RB. Besides Williams wasn't
even the cougars leading rusher at that point in the game. Hill was, with 69.2%
more rushing yds by that point in the game than Williams. Surely
you wouldn't suggest that losing an 18-yr old, #2 rusher, midway thru the
3rd Qtr would be anywhere even in the neighborhood as impactful as losing a
"Heisman candidate" upper-classman QB late in the 1st.
R.A.W. (continued):Now to look at the U-USU game, by about 4-min
remaining in the 1st Qtr, and facing a 4th-&-3, Utah State punted to the
Utes -- who were leading 7-3. On this Utah drive, Utah drove 80-yds in 8 plays,
and took a 14-3 lead. Had Keeton gone down at the same point in the game vs.
Utah as he had in the game vs. the Y, Utah would have faced a Keeton-less team
with an 11-pt lead.And of course an 11-pt lead > a 3-pt lead.
And THAT's "apples-to-apples"You
needn't worry so much about ME "calling it both ways". It's
those on the southern side of Draper that have the problem with one-way
positions. You might wanna say something to THEM about that. Or is
"calling it both ways" only a requirement for the northern end of
Draper, whilst "one-way" is acceptable for the opposite?
@NavalVet ""Had that been established, or did you make those numbers up?
Where did they come from? I'd never seen anything like that substantiated
before."That's probably because you didn't care to
look it up, since it reflects poorly on Utah's status as "big
brother". And lol, I love how much this has sent you into a worried
frenzy.Greg Welch, from LoyalCougars.com, did a write-up analyzing
BYU's television ratings for thee 2013-2014 football season. It's
entitled "Despite season’s slow start, BYU delivers solid
ratings". Feel free to look it up, he has links to his references there, or
I'm sure you can email him if it still worries U.""Big
brother" is the one who dominates the other on the field; not who dominates
the other on BYUtv."Fascinating, since everything I have
referenced below suggests otherwise. The perception of BYU is that they are the
big-name program in the state. But keep touting your impressive head-to-head
record against BYU, inflated when BYU fielded the equivalent of an intramural
squad and played the first 20 games or so in SL. Did they even wear leather
helmets back then?
R.A.W.:"I agree with you that USU was a different team without
Keaton...But you are intentionally leaving out the fact that Keaton DID play
against BYU...,"That factoid ignores the point of all those
arguments that the cougars beat the Aggies by more points than Utah, and thus is
the better team, despite losing at Home to the team they think they're
better than, for the 8th time out of the last 11. If you wanted to compare the
cougars' series with Keeton with the Utes, just look at how those games
were going during the same time he was on the field. Note:Keeton
went down at around 4-min remaining in the 1st Qtr, after an 8-yd rush on
3rd-&-15. Facing a 4th-&-7, the Aggies punted. The cougars went
4-&-out on the ensuing possession, so the FOLLOWING Aggie possession was the
1st drive of the Keeton-less offense. And at this time, the cougars
had a 3-pt lead (10-7).
@NavalVet "Where did the Utah-Y game get played in 2013? And how many of the
last 10 games played at that site did Utah win? How many did they lose?"In 2013, it was at BYU. In the last 10 years, Utah has played 6 games
at LES, and has won 4 of them and lost 2.Question: why should I
care?I love the trolls that throw out Utah's head-to-head
record against BYU over the last 10 years as if that somehow changes the fact
that Utah is a small-time school with a small-time sports program and almost no
football history to speak of.The mere fact that U use beating BYU as
your metric of success shows just how much of a little brother Utah is to
BYU.Rather amusing, actually.Go Cougars!
truecoug1:I did answer your question. It just didn't make it
through the moderators the first time. Here it is again. Utah played USU in
SLC; the Y played them in Logan. Now let me ask YOU a question: Where did the
Utah-Y game get played in 2013? And how many of the last 10 games played at
that site did Utah win? How many did they lose?"Why was the
BYU/Utah game last year the highest-rated television game for the Utes, while it
was only the 5th highest for BYU if Utah is the big brother?...Why did
10,165,000 people watch BYU play football last year, while only 3,310,000 watch
Utah if Utah is the big brother?"Had that been established, or
did you make those numbers up? Where did they come from? I'd never seen
anything like that substantiated before.And yes, since it'll
take the cougars no less than a quarter century just to TIE the series with
Utah, we ARE the "big brother". "Big brother" is the one who
dominates the other on the field; not who dominates the other on BYUtv.
Naval Vet,I agree with you that USU was a different team without
Keaton.But you are intentionally leaving out the fact that Keaton
DID play against BYU, in-fact his first pass from scrimmage was intercepted and
returned for a TD by Kyle Van Noy. Keaton was injured later on in the first
half of that game. The outcome could have been much different if Keaton would
have played the whole game. But the same thing could be said about
the BYU vs Utah game. Jamaal Williams went down in the first half and did not
return in that game. Williams is a HUGE part of the BYU offense. So one could
say that Utah beat an Injury "depleted" BYU team as well...You seem like an intelligent guy, but you let your bias against BYU ruin any
credibility. Is it too hard just to call it both ways?
@Two For Flinching "Outside of the 20 years between 1972 and 1992; Utah has
always been the big brother....57-34-4"Ah...so
that's what it take to be Big Brother in the State. Then hats off to you,
you've got us. It just makes me wonder why are BYU articles
commented on more than Utah articles (3 of the top 4 commented articles refer to
BYU and have nothing to do with Utah) if Utah is the big brother? Why was the BYU/Utah game last year the highest-rated television game for the
Utes, while it was only the 5th highest for BYU if Utah is the big brother? Why did 10,165,000 people watch BYU play football last year, while only
3,310,000 watch Utah if Utah is the big brother?Why did ESPN rank
BYU as the 25th most prestigious program in college football while Utah was only
ranked 43rd, if Utah is the big brother (and this was in 2009, right at the peak
of Utah football history)?Just seems weird to me. ah well, guess
I'll never understand it.Go Cougars!
@truecoug1I'm glad you have reminded me of what I was trying to
do when I originally started commenting on these articles. Stating Facts!
I've deviated from that course but will try now to start with facts once
again. And you stated it so eloquently. My heart will always be with Santa
Monica and my alma mater USC, but for the sake of argument in the region I now
live, go Cougars.
I love how far we've deviated from the actual story. Instead its just been
one giant argument about who is better. I just wish we could all get along. I
wish that I could bake a cake made out of rainbows and smiles and we'd all
eat it and be happy.
@ truecoug1Outside of the 20 years between 1972 and 1992; Utah has
always been the big brother....57-34-4
@NavalVet "Without Chuckie, the USU offense wasn't able to move the
ball as effectively. Going into the USU's game vs. the cougars, the Aggies
were averaging over 491-yds/game. Vs. the cougars, they were only able to move
the ball 397. And that's not because the Y's defense was so
dominant."What?? That has to be the worst argument I've
ever heard you make.BYU's defense held the majority of their
opponents under their season average of yards per game. USU's back-up QB
went on to go 6-2 as a starter. And all Chuckie did in 1 qtr was throw a
pick-six and then lead the Aggies on an epic, 10-yd TD drive after Taysom
fumbled at his own 10.And NONE of that explains how BYU's
OFFENSE was able to generate 24 points and 437 yds on the 12th ranked
defensive-team in the country, all while sitting their starters for most of the
4th quarter.Nice spin job, Naval...still waiting for an answer to
the original question.
Also, one point to make: I'm not a Utah hater. I think the University of
Utah is a great school, and I think that they are a perfect fit for the PAC 12.
I like Kyle Whittingham, and I think Larry Krystkowiak (sp?) is a great coach
and I love that he's reviving that program.Now, that's not
to say I don't enjoy seeing Utah lose, and I definitely enjoy the smack
talk with the occasional Utah fan (or is it "man"? Or "person"?
Actually, it's more the smack-talk with the BYU haters that I love.)I just love sports. And I hate the off-season during football and
basketball time. Here's to hoping it passes quickly.Go
It appears the biggest obstacle to BYU getting into a Big5 conference is
"humility". BYU doesn't have it, and greatly needs humility to get
membership. The "you'd be honored to have us in your league"
attitude is extremely off-putting.First, forget the Big12. They are
happy without a conference title game, and are making buckets of money. Adding
BYU wouldn't bring more money; it would dilute member shares.Next, appease the PAC12. Approach Larry Scott, hat in hand, and with great
humility talk about how BYU understands the changing landscape, declare
independence a failure, and recognize that big conferences are the future.
Humbly ask if there is any way BYU could add value to the great PAC12.
Don't press TV rebroadcast rights, happily accept reduced revenue sharing
in the early years of membership, express humble hope that Sunday play issues
can be resolved. Never mention the national title from 30 years ago. The PAC12
doesn't care. If allowed to join, that NC becomes the PAC12's and is
swallowed by almost 2 dozen other football PAC12 NC's. Accept that your
school doesn't set conference policy. Sit back, and enjoy the ride.
You should be kind to the Utes. Your daughter (or granddaughter) might marry
Fun facts:The BCS era (1998-2013) is widely regarded as the greatest
in Utah football history. The period from 2003-2010 is, without a doubt, the
best in Utah's long, "vaunted" tradition of college football.
Meanwhile, for BYU fans the BCS era was regarded as mediocre period in their
history, with a really good run (2006-2009) mired by one of the worst stretches
in BYU history (2002-2005), and two very mediocre stretches (1998-2000 and
2010-2013).Here are the stats from that era:
Utah BYUWins: 130
131Losses: 65 72Conference
Championships: 4 4Times ranked in AP and/or Coaches: 9
10BCS Games: 2 0Rivalry:
10-6 6-10 Bowl Games: 11
12Average SOS: 62.1 59.5Remember,
this is the best era in Utah history, and a very mediocre one in BYU's.
Basically, Utah's best is the equivalent of BYU's mediocre.Utah's 2 BCS wins are a phenomenal achievement, and should be recognized
as such. And it's obvious that Utah is much more competitive than they
have been in the past. But forgive me if I'm not ready to crown the Utes
"big brother" just yet :)Go Cougars!
truecoug1:"Injury-depleted? I didn't realize that Chuckie
played defense...that must be why USU gave up 31 points to BYU."Without Chuckie, the USU offense wasn't able to move the ball as
effectively. Going into the USU's game vs. the cougars, the Aggies were
averaging over 491-yds/game. Vs. the cougars, they were only able to move the
ball 397. And that's not because the Y's defense was so dominant.
It's because without Keeton, USU's offense was much worse. When one
team can't move the ball, it turns it over to the other team. And that
provides the other team with more scoring opportunities. So don't act like
Keeton's absence didn't impact the outcome of that game. The QB is
the most important position on the field, so when a team is missing THAT player,
the impact is magnified.You guys got the Keeton-less Aggies. We
didn't. But that's really neither here nor there since we beat the Y
-- in Provo no less...AGAIN -- so all this spin you guys are trying to put out
there is just that - immaterial spin.
A question for BYU fans saying Utah is the "default" school for the PAC
12.Then what does that say about BYU? All of the major conferences have
added and replaced schools. BYU was not one of them. You are still in the Band
Of Buddies Conference with Idaho St., and the rest of the saggy seconds. at
least ND is linked with the ACC. Can't ride those coat tails any more.BYU is the automatic default of any conference that thinks about
@NavalVet "However, you CAN compare those U and Y teams. In those 8
aforementioned seasons, the cougars went 2-6 vs. your big brother on the
Hill.""Big brother"? Since when did Utah and their
huge, 50,000 strong fanbase and glorious 5-year history become BYU's
"big brother"? U think 4 in a row and 9 out of 12 gives U that
status?In 2008, Notre Dame lost to Boston College for the 6th time
in a row in their "Holy War", and for the 7th time in 8 games. Boston
College was on one of the high points in their history, winning the Big East in
2004, and taking divisional title in the ACC in 3 of the next 4 years, while
achieving a top 5 ranking in 2007. Notre Dame was on a relatively
mediocre streak by their standards, going 56-43 between 2002-2008, making bowl
games but not really making national noise.Do U think ANYBODY in
their right mind would say Notre Dame was Boston College's little brother,
at that point, or ever?If so, better go let the Irish fans
know...I'm sure they'll be fascinated to hear that. Go
@NavalVet "The Ga. Tech Utah played in 2011 was a different team than the
Ga. Tech team of 2013. One was 8-5, the other was 7-6, and with incoming and
outgoing players over those 2 yrs, they were different teams."True...the #56-ranked, 8-5 Georgia Tech team Utah squeaked by in 2011 was
worse than the #37, 7-6 ranked team that BYU trounced in 2013.Great
point, Naval.And since you still haven't addressed it,
I'll try to help Uteanymous out:Where did Utah play Utah St. in
2013? Where did BYU play Utah St. in 2013?Shouldn't be too
hard to answer.Go Cougars!
@NavalVet "If Utah beat USU, and the cougars beat USU, then it's a
push. It is not a "better quality win" for the cougars. It was the same
team."True...the same team that Utah managed to sneak by at RES,
while BYU crushed that same team in Logan.U DO realize that teams
almost always play better at home than on the road, a universal truth across all
sports, right? Just look at Utah last year: 4-2 at home, 1-5 on the road. I
think that the road win, and the fact that BYU crushed Utah St, is why Rockwell
called it a "better quality win" for BYU."Well....ALMOST
the same team. The USU team Utah beat was a "Chuckie Keeton"-led team,
whereas the USU team the cougars beat was an easier, injury depleted
team."Injury-depleted? I didn't realize that Chuckie played
defense...that must be why USU gave up 31 points to BYU. Go
Marked it Down:"Since BSU became an FBS program, they've
abused the Utes:...Crowton...[and] Bronco ha[ve] been much more competitive
against BSU than Kyle."Never had the cougars ever played BSU in
the same season as the Utes, so each of those 8 games were vs. 8 different
Bronco teams. You can't compare different BSU teams. Only the same ones.
Besides, Utah's 0-4 record vs. BSU isn't much different than the
Y's 1-3, and especially not since we never had the benefit of playing vs. a
BSU team with a back up QB making his first start, and the Y never faced a BCS
bowl busting squad like the Utes did back in 2006.However, you CAN
compare those U and Y teams. In those 8 aforementioned seasons, the cougars
went 2-6 vs. your big brother on the Hill. And that pretty much tells you
who's the better team.Edge: Utah.
Tajemnica,I did a spit-take when I read "That's one of the
reasons I moved here (although admittedly so I wish we were closer to Provo than
Marked it Down:"You're seriously taking credit for beating
Boise State when the Broncos were a Big Sky team?"Why not?
Cougar fans are taking credit for beating an injury depleted 8-5 Bronco team,
with a 2nd-string QB making his first start. Plus, you have a couple of cougar
fans who have been making factually inaccurate comments about our record vs.
BSU, yet I don't see you calling THEM out for it. So what are you calling
out me? Typical hypocritical coug."btw, you didn't seem to
have a problem taking credit for upsetting BYU when the Cougars were starting a
QB with two broken vertebrae."btw, YOU didn't seem to have
a problem taking credit for beating a 6-5 Michigan team in the 1984 Holiday Bowl
starting yet ANOTHER back up QB -- who was playing with two cracked vertebrae.
And FWIW, Riley wasn't the 2nd-string QB. He was the "starter".
It was Utah who was playing their 2nd string QB.And our 2nd string
RB.And our 2nd string Safeties at both "Strong" and
"Free".Typical hypocritical coug.
TajemnicaWest Valley, Utah@KVN/Hoff want 0-4 against UTAHHow much control do you think BYU fans have over these sort of things. I lot
of fans 'want' them but they have ZERO control.@Lifelong
UteAs a USC fan I can say you didn't 'deserve' it
either. The main things holding BYU back are not a lack of deserving it nor a
lack of invitations, it is the unique aspect of the institution such as the
Sunday play option as well as the T.V. rights (since BYU has better production
capacity than all of the PAC 10) that the high up theres from BYU and these
conferences cannot agree with. utah was invited as leftovers because the PAC 10
and BYU couldn't agree to a deal (same goes for the BIG 12). And Colorado
was invited because the PAC 10 didn't want just 11 teams. (the leftovers of
the leftovers). I'd much rather have BYU than YOUtah in my conference. BTW
good luck on October 25th. You'll need it going in likely at 2-4.---USC is the poster child for PAC 12 sanctions. Coach Sarks will
carry on that tradition. You would be better off being a fan of UCLA.
Tajemnica"I'm curious to know why each of you think you
know more about me than I know about myself."Translation:
"How did you know I was always a lifelong cougar fan?"Because you're not the first. We've been seeing a LOT of your type,
and you fit the profile to a "T". (1) Lauds the cougs;
pans the Utes(2) Considers cougar fans "nicer"; labels Ute fans
"delusional"(3) Gloms onto a Pac-10, preferably with a head coach
who once played/coached at the Y(4) Doesn't know much about the
Pac-10/12 or its history(5) Clings to distorted cougar folklore as fact,
rewrites Pac-10 history as one where Utah was the unwanted "booby
prize".(bonus) Lives in Utah.You're a lifelong
cougar fan, and we know it. Case closed.
RockwellBaltimore, MDnavalvet"The Pac-10 requires
its member institutions to be a Tier-1 Research university."NOT
TRUE!The PAC 10 was ready to welcome with open arms Oklahoma State
and other schools in the Big 12 South whose research classification is EXACTLY
the same as BYU's.-----------------You
might want to look beyond your obsession with Utah Rockwell. The PAC 12 does
indeed have requirements that fellow BYU fans do not like to talk about. Because
we do not qualify. Tier 1 research is indeed part of that.
No playoff for U:"LOL at your hyperbole."It
wasn't MY "hyperbole". It was the media's. And the reason
why we were reknowned as THE "giant killers" was because we were the
winningest team vs. BCS schools from among all the non-AQs. In fact, from among
the non-AQs, only Utah and TCU had a winning record at all against them.With Utah being the "winningest" of course.Hence,
ESPN's "giant killer" designator.
"First of all, we'd beaten them [Boise State] twice. Second of all,
we've never had the fortuitious[sic] luxury of playing an 8-5 Bronco team
down to their 2nd-string QB."You're seriously taking credit
for beating Boise State when the Broncos were a Big Sky team?btw,
you didn't seem to have a problem taking credit for upsetting BYU when the
Cougars were starting a QB with two broken vertebrae. In fact, I seem to recall
the Utes rushing the field THREE times after their win.Back to
BSUSince BSU became an FBS program, they've abused the Utes:2010 BSU 26 Utah 32006 BSU 36 Utah 31999 BSU 26 Utah 201998 BSU 31 Utah 28BYU's 2004 5-6 Crowton-lead team was more
competitive against the Broncos than the Utes have been since "busting"
the BCS. Bronco has been much more competitive against BSU than Kyle.2013 BYU 37 BSU 202012 BYU 6 @BSU 72004 BYU 27 @BSU 282003
BYU 12 BSU 50
Uteanymous:And FWIW, OU and OSU reapplied for Pac-12 membership back
in late 2011......and were DENIED!The Pac-12 didn't
want OSU. They don't qualify as a Tier-1 Research institution. If Texas
and OU applied to the Pac-12, I submit to you that they would NOT accept OSU
tagging along. They'd insist on another. Most likely Kansas.
PAC 12 member by default!Harrisville, UTCongratulations to Utah.
You've taken over this message board by default. Default is a
lovely word. Make sure to remember to send your annual thank you
card to Texas and Oklahoma.---Unfortunately that applies
to our inclusion and choice to join the WCC. Yes they approved, but that is our
default and only choice we had. You know it's very unfortunate
when fellow BYU fans cry and are bitter about not being in the PAC 12 or any
other real conference. Please stop. It reflects on the rest of BYU fans that
don't complain like some of you do.
Uteanymous:"They only 'reneged' on the Big 12 South
merger, when Texas A&M pulled out of the deal."A&M never
"pulled out of the deal". They weren't ever all that interested in
the Pac-10 to begin with. They'd been flirting with the SEC since the
early 1990s, and once they'd finally had enough of Texas, they had no
designs to follow them.And being a Tier-1 Research WAS a
requirement. And that's why there are no schools in the Pac-12 who
don't have that designator. So no, I wasn't talking out of both sides
of my mouth. "Guaranteed, if Texas and Oklahoma were to agree to
join the PAC 12 today, with the provision that Texas Tech and Oklahoma State
also be included, the PAC 12 would jump at the opportunity with no
hesitation."And how do you "guarantee" that? You
don't really. You're just using hyperbole because you're being
frantic and emotional.
Back TalkFederal Way, WACollege football is moving even more into
Corporate sponsored minor league football programs for the pros. The Universitys
are basically only providing name recognition which ties in a fan base. If big football basically separates itself from the NCAA, I wonder how
that will affect the sport going forward. I dont see BYU being able
to compete in this environment in either the Big 12 or Pac 12. I am not sure the
Church wants to follow football into this environment.I guess we
will have to wait and see how things change over the next 3-4 years.---I agree with your thoughts on where college football is going.
And if paying student athletes is part of that. I can't see BYU, or some
other schools for that matter participating. They would just cancel sports.
No more Cinderellas. The Fairy Godmother would be ashamed of the NCAA and all
institutions associated with the big 5. At least the Fairy Godmother still
approves of BYU as it seems they are the last Cinderella that will ever win the
National Championship. She'll at least still enjoy college basketball.
Uteanymous:"It's laughable how you point out the location
of BYU's Georgia Tech game, but conveniently ignore where BYU and Utah
played Utah State."No it isn't. The USU team that both the
Utes and cougs played...was the exact same team.The Ga. Tech Utah
played in 2011 was a different team than the Ga. Tech team of 2013. One was
8-5, the other was 7-6, and with incoming and outgoing players over those 2 yrs,
they were different teams. Like how the cougars 11-2 team of 2009 was a
different team than their 7-6 (thank you Chad Bunn) squad just ONE year later.
So the Y went 5-1 vs teams Sagarin ranked between 33 and 50. Utah
went 2-1. How did the Y do vs. teams ranked 1-32? 0-3. Utah went 1-6. So it
looks like the cougars got more opportunities vs. mid-range opponents, whereas
Utah stood up to more top tier opponents. So vastly different opponents =
vastly different records.P.S.: You lost to #106 UVA. Our worst
defeat was #40 WSU.Most pathetic: cougars
...continued. In fact utah wasn't even the second choice as the
universities the PAC wanted were as follows: Texas Tech University, University
of Texas at Austin, University of Oklahoma, Oklahoma State University,
University of Colorado at Boulder, or possibly Baylor University and Texas
A&M University. So utah was the eighth choice. How's it feel to be at
the bottom of the scrap heap and the second most desirable school in the state
of Utah to attend? BTW religious beliefs and T.V. rights (BYUtv) were HUGE
reasons BYU is not with the PAC 10 or BIG 12. But I'm a giver and like I
said before, if it helps you sleep at all you tell yourself whatever you want
navel vet"We were known as THE "giant killers" LOL at your hyperbole.The supposed "giant killers" were
abused by 10-loss UNLV 0-27 the season before upsetting Alabama, which is the
ONLY "giant" Utah ever beat prior to being invited to the PAC 12.
@Naval Vet@Tomahawk RedI'm curious to know why each of
you think you know more about me than I know about myself. If you calling me a
cougar fan helps you sleep at night, by all means call me a cougar fan. I have
no need to prove anything to you anyway but since we are on the subject and
since I currently live right in the middle of this revalry if you made me choose
between BYU and utah and ONLY BYU and utah then I pick BYU in a heartbeat: the
fans are not only nicer to outsiders but less delusional as you proved in your
posts about me. I was at the USC-BYU game in '04 when we destroyed them and
all the fans were great to my boyfriend and I. That's one of the reasons I
moved here (although admittedly so I wish we were closer to Provo than Salt
Lake). Regardless I do realize after some further research that I got one fact
wrong. The PAC 10 wanted Colorado before utah which became the scraps the PAC 10
needed to have 12.
Y Grad/Y Dad,I am one Ute who has never waivered in my hatred for
the BCS and I was glad to see the Pac 12 be one of the leaders in pushing for
the playoff. I hope to see the playoff expanded and refined over the next 5 to
10 years into a true win and your in system similar to the NCAA basketball
tournament taking each conference champion and seeding them according to their
regular season performance. Until we get there, what we have will have to do.
I truly hope the Big 5 conferences don't separate themselves, because I
love the idea of a team from any conference having the opportunity to surprise
the big boys in a playoff.
navelvet"The Pac-10 didn't want Okla. St. They wanted
Oklahoma. They initially agreed to accommodate OU's insistence to let them
bring their little brother along, but -- per Chip Brown -- they later decided to
renege on that offer. OSU didn't meet the Tier-1 requirement, and they were
not going to get the invite."Now you're speaking out of
both sides of your mouth, openly admitting that Tier 1 research status was NOT A
REQUIREMENT, but only a WANT.They only "reneged" on the Big
12 South merger, when Texas A&M pulled out of the deal.Guaranteed, if Texas and Oklahoma were to agree to join the PAC 12 today, with
the provision that Texas Tech and Oklahoma State also be included, the PAC 12
would jump at the opportunity with no hesitation. Research standing
wouldn't even be a consideration.
navelvetIt's laughable how you point out the location of
BYU's Georgia Tech game, but conveniently ignore where BYU and Utah played
Utah State.And your continued disingenuous references to
"mid-majors" and conference affiliation as a metric for judging whether
an individual team is a quality opponent, or not, demonstrates just how spurious
your arguments really are when in comes to determining quality wins.According to Sagarin's rankings:#35 BYU beat #33 Texas, #37
Georgia Tech, #41 Utah State, #47 Boise State and #50 Houston#34 Utah beat
#5 Stanford, #35 BYU and #41 Utah StateBYU had five wins versus Top
50 teams; Utah had three.If you want to draw the line at Top 40, BYU
had two wins and Utah had two.Be careful where you choose to draw
the line; it could make you look very foolish in future arguments about quality
College football is moving even more into Corporate sponsored minor league
football programs for the pros. The Universitys are basically only providing
name recognition which ties in a fan base. If big football basically
separates itself from the NCAA, I wonder how that will affect the sport going
forward. I dont see BYU being able to compete in this environment in
either the Big 12 or Pac 12. I am not sure the Church wants to follow football
into this environment.I guess we will have to wait and see how
things change over the next 3-4 years.
navalvet"The Pac-10 requires its member institutions to be a
Tier-1 Research university."NOT TRUE!The PAC 10 was
ready to welcome with open arms Oklahoma State and other schools in the Big 12
South whose research classification is EXACTLY the same as BYU's.--------------btw, do you really think the PAC 10 would be stupid
enough to base their analysis of Utah football on a couple of flash-in-the-pan
seasons, when historically, the Utes have been mediocre, at best?Television market size was the overwhelming consideration in determining who
to invite, and who not to invite, except for a couple of PAC 10 schools who
didn't want to be associated with a religiously-based. That's why
Colorado was hastily invited, to shut Baylor out of the Big 12 South mix, and
why Utah was invited, instead of BYU.
Rockwell:"Utah State(9-5) 30-26 - BYU beat the Aggies 31-14 (a
better quality win for BYU)"If Utah beat USU, and the cougars
beat USU, then it's a push. It is not a "better quality win" for
the cougars. It was the same team.Well....ALMOST the same team.
The USU team Utah beat was a "Chuckie Keeton"-led team, whereas the USU
team the cougars beat was an easier, injury depleted team. Still, as far as SOS
is concerned, they still grade out the same."Weber State(2-10) -
laughable"And beating Idaho St. isn't? ISU went 3-9 last
year, but 2 of those wins were vs. Western St, and Dixie St, and those 2 teams
are Div. II. WSU didn't play any D-II schools to pad their schedule. But
they DID play Idaho St....and routed them 32-7. Edge: Weber St.
Rockwell:"Comparing Boise State to BYU academically is
laughable."Not as laughable as trying to compare BSU's
football program to the Y's. BSU blows the doors off of the cougars'
program, or had you not noticed how many BCS bowl trophies they've won, and
who they've had to beat to earn them, vs. the number the cougars have in
THEIR trophy case? And THEY didn't have to "back in" to THEIR
station. They "earned" it.And as for comparing them
academically...it was actually a very fitting/accurate comparison. Note:(A) The Pac-10 requires its member institutions to be a Tier-1 Research
university.(B) Boise State is not a Tier-1 Research university.(C)
Conclusion: Boise St. does not fit the academic profile of a Pac-12.Now let's do the same analysis for the cougars.(D) The
Pac-10 requires its member institutions to be a Tier-1 Research university.(E) The cougars are not a Tier-1 Research university.(F) Conclusion:
The Y does not fit the academic profile of a Pac-12.Do you see that?
In both cases, the scenerios are IDENTICAL......thus 2fer was
Utah got in based on the same qualities that Colorado got into the PAC12. They
had academic profiles somewhat similar to that of current PAC10 teams, opened
new markets increasing market share for TV revenue AND provided teams that will
not likely rock the boat on the football field.Colorado hasn't
been a successful football program since the early 90s, so the success of the
program had nothing to do with the invitations.
Congratulations to Utah. You've taken over this message board by default.
Default is a lovely word. Make sure to remember to send
your annual thank you card to Texas and Oklahoma.
Why didn't the Pac-12 choose BYU instead of Utah? If you research you
would see that BYU was chosen to join the Pac-12 but it had to be a unanimous
vote by the other schools. Two voted NO because of the church's stance on
Prop 8. If you remove bigotry from the equation any conference would be happy
to have BYU. The focus shouldn't be all football. BYU has a much more
rounded athletic department than most schools. They excel in many sports and
would bring added exposure to any conference they joined. Like Bronco said,
"can't worry about what you can't control." So until a
conference is willing to accept our values and beliefs we will probably stay
independent and work to make the football schedule the strongest it can be.
Some years good and some years not so much. Again scheduling isn't totally
in BYU's control either, we can't make other teams play us. Utah
enjoy your membership in the Pac-12 and understand that you are there not
because your athletic teams are so superior to the Y's but because the
Pac-12 wanted to capture the intermountain west's market.
CO Ute"you name one quality team that BYU beat very early in the
year before they made a major coaching change and started winning some
games"And how many quality teams did Utah beat in 2013?Utah State(9-5) 30-26 - BYU beat the Aggies 31-14 (a better quality win for
BYU)Weber State(2-10) - laughable@BYU(8-5) - claiming BYU as a
quality win, by definition makes BYU a quality team, as well as several of the
teams BYU beatStanford(10-2) - Utah's only indisputable quality
winColorado(4-8) - laughableQuality teams that BYU beat in
2013Texas(8-5) - absolutely, it's laughable that you claim Texas
isn't a quality win because the Longhorns improved throughout the season@Utah State(9-5) - quality winGeorgia Tech(7-6) - if the Utes beating
Georgia Tech(8-5) 30-27 in OT in a bowl is a quality win for Utah, then BYU
pummeling Georgia Tech 38-20 is a quality win for BYU@Houston(8-5) - a
team Utah has never beatenBoise State(8-5) - another team that Utah has
never beatenBYU had a many quality wins in 2013, as Utah had wins.
2fer"Boise is similar to BYU. They simply don't qualify
academically."Comparing Boise State to BYU academically is
laughable.BYU blows the doors off Utah with their undergraduate
programs and BYU is a high research university, in the same category as several
teams in the Big 12.GPA and ACT scores for incoming freshman at BYU
are MUCH higher than those for Utah freshmen.That's not
hyperbole, it's a verifiable FACT!
Hey folks, it really doesn't matter any more about BYU, Army, Navy, Boise
St and many some 120 schools. Look what happened back 2005 Pitt and 2009 Bamma.
2005 both Utah and Auburn got snub when they went undefeated and 2009 utah had
better winning record and no NC. They will not be the only one going to be left
out. You think Washington St vs Duke playing for the NC, NEVER! It will always
be like some 10 top schools going for the NC for many year to come. It is going
downhill in college football and I am getting really close to dislike this NCAA
Football (oops Big 5). NCAA is dead as far for College Football. Even if BYU get
invited to Big 12 and they will never going to get in IF they do go undefeated
and same for Utah!
@ CougsndawgsBoise is similar to BYU. They simply don't
Cougsndawgs:"I'm sorry I have to laugh at Utah fans
thinking they earned a spot at the table because of their BCS bowls. If that
were the case where is Boise State's invitation"Boise State
isn't a Tier 1 Research institution. So based on their academic profile,
they have no shot at joining the Pac-12 or the BigTen. And if they want to join
the Big 12....well, that's up to Texas, since they appear to be the ones
calling all the shots down there. As soon as the Big 12 -- er, I mean Texas --
decides they need to up their conference's profile, and grow to a 12-team
league, BSU will be considered. They'll probably make a run at Louisville
first, but the Cardinals would be wise to remain in the equal revenue sharing
ACC. If Colorado St. can bring their game back up to their "Sonny
Lubick" era of the 1990s, the Big 12 -- er, I mean Texas -- would take BSU
and CSU. If the Rams cannot, the Big 12 might look to a Cincinnati-BSU
addition.And of course, the cougars will remain midmajors forever.
Okay, so Utah detested the BCS system. Then they got invited to join it, now
they love it and relish the unfairness as it is applied to someone else. I
don't have a problem with that. Really. After all, do any of us BYU fans
think that Tom Holmoe is going to go talk to Mr. Slive and ask him for an
exception for everyone? Of course not. We want an exception for BYU, and if we
get it, we're in (kinda, sorta) and too bad for all the others. We
won't decline an exception on principle.So let the silly Utes
enjoy rubbing it in our faces. Let them whine about our pathetic WAC-ish
schedule, and how we would never go undefeated in a season when Utah is on the
schedule, and Texas, Boise, Houston, UCF were over-rated anyway. Let them
celebrate their inclusion in a big boy conference. And BYU's exclusion.
And who wants to win a two-bit bowl game anyway? No matter which
bowl game BYU plays, it won't be big enough.Say the kids on the
So you're telling me there's a chance...yeah!
I'm not sure there is a way to make College Football "fair" and its
really not worth getting worked up over. Just enjoy it for the competition each
individual game and don't try to see anything more into it than that.
byu deserves the Rose bowl pretty much every years.
Pretty tough to play in the playoffs when you're the 11th worst team out of
12. Juat sayin...
@Tomahawk Red I can understand why your afraid if NCAA chooses to do
the two worst teams in the higher division gets demoted and the two best teams
in the lower division gets promoted. That means your team could be demoted. But
it could also make the last couple games more exciting if your team is one of
the lower teams you will want to win so that you don't get demoted.
This is one Ute who doesn't relish the idea of BYU football going away. At
the same time I am amused by all the BYU who constantly point out the Ute's
struggles in the Pac 12. All the while the Utes have dominated BYU in football
for four years. Do you realize what that means? If Utah's football team
is in such a bad spot, BYU is even worse off. Talk all you want about the Utes
not having a chance in the Pac 12, but if that is true then BYU is even a bigger
I would be happy about this if I was a Ute fan, now they don't have to
worry about playing lower teams that can beat them. They don't look as bad
if they only lose to good teams.
I'm sorry I have to laugh at Utah fans thinking they earned a spot at the
table because of their BCS bowls. If that were the case where is Boise
State's invitation...I mean we all know how much better they are than U
because they've proven it head to head against you (in demoralizing
fashion). I mean isn't head to head what utes always brag about? They OWN
U...where's their invite? They don't have one because as many ute fans
fail to see BCS bowls aren't the reason for your in invitation, if so why
are Rutgers and Maryland in? Why are the Vanderbilts, Iowa states, and Colorados
of the world still at the table?It's also sad to me to see Utah
fans wanting the death of their rival. You have no rivals in the PAC12 (unless u
think the pillow fight in the Rockies is really a rivalry). Face it you all like
the back & forth with BYU fans. If they go away what will you have? Talking
to yourself in the corner & patting each other on the back for another sub
500 year? Yep pretty sad.
Tomahawk Red -- my suggestion has two positive points that have nothing directly
to do with BYU, but do cover Bronco's lament that the playing field be
level -- for everyone.Point one is that programs outside the
so-called Power 5 could earn their way into a tougher schedule by building
consistent programs (one year flare-up gets you into the door, but not the
national title or will keep you there). Conversely, programs weak on the
gridiron wouldn't stay just by association with a power conference.Point two is that, even when you're having a losing season, there
is incentive and something to play for in not finishing at the bottom of the
conference. Actually adds meaning to late season games throughout the
BYU has the biggest stadium and most worldwide fans. There are 4 billion
Chinese people watching our games too.
"...as you shift now towards the playoff model, it appears to me that the
same number of conference games ought to be played amongst all power-five teams,
and that all power-five leagues should have a conference championship game."
-- BroncoHmmm. Last I checked, there was only ONE league that
didn't play a conference championship game, and that's because they
don't have 12 teams. They USED to, but they don't anymore. And
that's the very same league the cougars made a run at -- twice -- and
failed miserably. So if I were to read between the lines, it sounds like Bronco
thinks if he can make a push for NCAA mandated 12-team leagues, the cougars
could make a 3rd run, only this time with the Big 12's hands tied in to
HAVING to invite 2 more teams. And he likely believes this favors the
cougars.Personally, I think if the NCAA actually does mandate 12+
team leagues, the Big 12 would just pick two OTHER teams, leaving the cougars
"Fully Rejected" yet again.
I just love how BYU remains entrenched in ute fans' minds. It's an
obsession they'll never be able to put down. It's amazing that they
seem to care more about BYU than their own team. It lends credence to the
saying that many ute 'fans' are BYU haters first and foremost.The college football landscape is by no means finalized. There are many
changes still to come and BYU has too good of a football team and overall
athletic program not to be included in some way.Just a suggestion
for the many ute fans here, try supporting your team more and help them to be
able to compete in your new conference for once. It's kind of embarrassing
to have you be at the bottom of every sport in the pac 12 yearly.
Tomahawk RedDon't kid yourself. Television market size is the
ONLY thing that "earned" Utah into the PAC 12, just as it did Colorado
in the PAC 12, and Rutgers and Maryland into the B1G.Boise State has
far exceeded anything that Utah, Rutger, Colorado, or Maryland have done in the
past 10 years, but they're in a small television market.
Brent T. Aurora COAurora, COFootball should go to 4 conferences or
divisions where annually the teams that finish last are out into a pool of teams
that advances 4 qualifying teams into those four conferences. And even better
would be tying the fates of basketball, baseball and other sports to the
performance of their football team as to the conferences they play in-----------If that's how it was, BYU wouldn't get
anywhere near inclusion.
Playoffs?! How BYU learns to crawl first? Try beating Utah. This year 12-0
won't even land you in a BCS bowl (Fiesta, Orange).
Che26SALT LAKE CITY, UTWow It's amazing how 5 years ago
Utah fans were just as upset about how unfair college football worked, and now
they are coming out of the woodwork talking about how great the system
functions. Talk about fair weather fans.----------How is
that fair weather? It's not.Elitist, yes. Fair weather, no.
Lots of chest-thumping from Ute fans (all the first commenters). Why do you guys
care so much? I thought you had "Moved On" and BYU was "Little
Brother". I'm really happy for you being in a "Power
5" conference. But realistically, your chances of EVER playing for a
national title are a zillion to one. About the same as BYU.
It is funny how Ute fans think they "earned" a spot in the PAC 10+2. As
has been noted, it had nothing to do with your performance on the field and
everything to do with money and TV sets. Larry Scott was getting ready to
negotiate a TV contract and needed the largest number of TV sets possible to
maximize revenue. He asked Texas and Oklahoma who both declined. Option #2 was
Utah and Colorado. Neither had a "great" history or tradition in
football, but since all Larry Scott needed was a TV footprint for negotiations,
an offer was extended. Being second choice is better than no choice, so I am
glad for the Utes. But please stop acting like it was your "great"
tradition, or your little 45,000 seat stadium that got you in the PAC 10+2. It
was money and TV sets.
RSLfanalwaysRSLfanalways you've hit the nail on the head. Football should
go to 4 conferences or divisions where annually the teams that finish last are
out into a pool of teams that advances 4 qualifying teams into those four
conferences. And even better would be tying the fates of basketball, baseball
and other sports to the performance of their football team as to the conferences
they play in.
Based on University of Utah's record in the PAC 10+2, I would say that BYU,
Utah State, Weber State, and Bingham High have about the same chance as the UofU
does to make the National Championship Game. If I were a Ute fan I think I would
prove that I should belong to a "Power Conference" before I threw rocks
at non-Big 5 teams. The University of Utah is where it is because the PAC 10+2
needed more money, not because they proved they belonged. So prove it, before
you talk down to anyone.
Wow It's amazing how 5 years ago Utah fans were just as upset about
how unfair college football worked, and now they are coming out of the woodwork
talking about how great the system functions. Talk about fair weather fans.The fact of the matter is that the system stinks. Even if BYU was included I
wouldn't be happy with where college football is headed. Lots of great
programs that play great football are being left behind and it is just making
college football worse. It is very sad to see so many fans in Utah support
a system that has actively been destroying the tenants that make college
football great such as rivalry, cheering the underdog and sportsmanship.
Here is a question. What is better, being one of the best teams in a
lower division, or one of the worst teams in a higher division. Both have
pro's and con's. Fans get tired of losing so it may hurt the higher
program, or your team is winning in a lower division but can't play better
teams in a higher division. It would be smart to have the two worst
teams demoted from the higher conference to the lower and the best two from the
lower conference to be promoted. But that can create complications.
@KVN/Hoff want 0-4 against UTAHHow much control do you think BYU
fans have over these sort of things. I lot of fans 'want' them but
they have ZERO control.@Lifelong UteAs a USC fan I can
say you didn't 'deserve' it either. The main things holding BYU
back are not a lack of deserving it nor a lack of invitations, it is the unique
aspect of the institution such as the Sunday play option as well as the T.V.
rights (since BYU has better production capacity than all of the PAC 10) that
the high up theres from BYU and these conferences cannot agree with. utah was
invited as leftovers because the PAC 10 and BYU couldn't agree to a deal
(same goes for the BIG 12). And Colorado was invited because the PAC 10
didn't want just 11 teams. (the leftovers of the leftovers). I'd much
rather have BYU than YOUtah in my conference. BTW good luck on October 25th.
You'll need it going in likely at 2-4.
@KVN/HoffI'm not sure you understand how it works...
These byu fans and coaches talk like they deserve something. You only deserve
what you earn. And byu has not earned a place among the power 5. If you had
earned it, you'd be in. But you haven't, so you're not. Byu
doesn't deserve a pathway to any playoffs if they haven't earned it.
Don't like it? Tough.
What I don't get is why doesn't byu just join us in the Pac 12 or join
the Big 12?Then your schedule would be way better, you'd play
for better bowls, and you'd have access to the playoffs.Don't byu fans want those things?
With BYU's horrendous schedule, winning every game won't matter for
entry into the playoff system.
It is the sad experience of sports fans of teams not in the 5 power conferences
that no matter what version is for choosing a national champion, it is always
slanted toward those money conferences. The NCAA has always been first and
foremost about the money. It's a business. It is driven toward the most
profitable programs and policies. I expect the playoff system to do very little
toward determining who is the real champion of football. It will always be the
'perceived' champion, as determined by the 5 power conferences.
that's life. That's the NCAA. Follow the money.