@Brio"and other affirmative action advocates are indicating you think
Blacks are still incapable of succeeding on their own without special help from
the government."No. The issue is inequality of opportunity.
Institutionally, there are disadvantages built in. Someone with a "black
sounding name" has lower chances of getting callbacks for interviews than
the equivalent job application with a "white sounding name". Some school
districts are much better off than others, disproportionately with heavily
minority schools being at the disadvantaged schools. The issue is how to address
these problems, and these affirmative action measures are a means of trying to
counter that inequality of opportunity. Personally though, I
don't really think that's the best way to go (so I'm not arguing
for affirmative action, just explaining what the argument for it is based on);
I'd rather we just resolve things at the source (through things like
lifting up the schools with less resources).
@GaryOYou won't hear me defending racism or reverse affirmative
action against Asians.If they are more qualified then deserve to get
in ahead of those who are not or are scoring lower on entrance exams. Period.Plenty of whites are getting lazy and entitled. Other people/races are
coming from places with far less opportunity and appreciate what they can get
here.Too bad our own government encourages laziness and dependency
but you will never hear me say people should be rewarded from doing so. Earn
your way or move out of the way I say.Same with college admissions.
If you are not qualified to be there then how fair is that to someone who is
most certainly qualified if the unqualified took their spot?You
bring up these other exceptions as to how others get admitted which are not race
related. The topic is getting admitted based on race. Other admissions should
be evaluated on their own merits and dealt with accordingly.
Hey SC Fantasy -When GW applied for Harvard Business School in 1975,
his Daddy was the chairman of the National Republican Party.And GW
got good grades at Harvard? See? What did I tell you? It's nothing short
of a miracle what an influential Father can do.Comparing the
intellet of GW to Obama is silly. Obama can actually think and speak
coherently.GW can't even pronounce "Nuclear."
Gary OWhen Bush records from Harvard came out, his grades for his
MBA were not bad. In fact better than the grades Gore had in college. And I
sure would like to see the Obama grades from Columbia and Harvard. I wonder why
they are kept secret. Don't you?
@ RivertoCougarYou wrote: "Are Harvard, Stanford, UC-Berkley,
etc. conservative institutions, or are they more liberal? You bet they are
die-hard liberal!"You are absolutely correct. In order to be a
Liberal you need to have a broad mind and vast knowledge of various perspectives
on the same issue. The more you study and think the more liberal you become.Judge Sotomayor demonstrated once again her fortitude and sense of
social justice dissenting on this vote. Social enequality because of race still
exists in this country. Universities do themselves a favor and a service to the
country when they identifiy minority individuals who have the potential to
succeed in academia and give them a chance.Judge Sotomayor called
Judge Roberts' statement “the way to stop discrimination on the
basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” too
simplistic. I think she is right.
@ GaryO:Of course there are millions of examples... just as I
mentioned in my previous comment. They happen all the time throughout the
business world and in most other facets of life. Money equates to power. Simple
concept. But you actually did handpick a few examples in trying to prove a
biased agenda. Of course Whites examples are more prevalent since Caucasians
still make up a substantial majority of American society. You, Happy
Valley Heretic and other affirmative action advocates are indicating you think
Blacks are still incapable of succeeding on their own without special help from
the government. It's actually that kind of society attitude that is holding
back more Black success. It makes Blacks appear to somehow be inferior to others
when most of us know that isn't true. And since race laws are already in
place to eliminate any legal discrimination, making Blacks think and feel they
can't compete on an equal playing field proliferates an inferiority
syndrome and racial inferiority complexes. You might have good
intentions, but it's actually backfiring. It's also the reason that
even though laws have been in place for over 50 years, progress is still slow.
Gary O you are correct, and as usual bumper sticker answers to complicated
situations, by conservatives on the bench and in these comments. The legacy part
is huge, not an exception....I suspect those in favor of this ruling
are the most picked on group in America "White middle class men" at
least that's what I've been told by them.
I agree with Sotomayor's arguments.Ignoring racial differences,
culturally and historically isn't helpful either.
My comment was approved, but it is not posted?It is high time we
take the next step towards equality, by respecting people enough to allow them
to get admitted to college based on what they have done to qualify to go, not
based on the color of their skin.238 years after the Declaration of
Independence, we still haven't enacted laws which treat all men/women as
equal, giving them equal opportunity. Affirmative Action is now a barrier to
equality. Germany tore down it's wall in 1986. Now it is our
turn. The Affirmative Action wall needs to be torn down!
Brio –“Handpicking a few exception examples?”
There are MILLIONS of such examples. Racial Preference in favor of
Caucasians is not the exception. It’s the rule. And as you say,
“that’s just the way it is.” Being Caucasian myself,
I’m not all that uncomfortable with the idea, but I do have a sense of
fairness, and that does make me feel uncomfortable about the situation.If Mitt Romney was born Black in inner-city Detroit, do you really think he
would have attained success in the business world? Don’t you think his
father’s network of social, political, and business contacts might have a
little something to do with his acceptance into Harvard and his position within
the business world?Chris B – You can call
government-sponsored Affirmative Action racism, if you want, but it’s the
kind that attempts to balance racism in the other direction. Have you ever heard
of fighting fire with fire? Most Whites (especially
“Conservatives”) don’t want to know that Asians are ROUTINELY
denied access to colleges in favor of less-qualified Whites. It’s called
@ GaryO:Handpicking a few exception examples means absolutely
nothing of substance, except that perhaps your liberal bias is alive and well
when you try to apply it to one political ideology . Big college
money contributers have helped to get their offspring into their colleges of
choice since day one, and it has absolutely nothing to do with racism and
it's certainly not another form of affirmative action. Your comment is so
far out in left field in multiple ways that I'm truly surprised the comment
monitors allowed it. But since they did allow it, let me explain it
to you. It's all about the power of money. It's been used and
continues to be used every year by Liberals, Conservatives, Libertarians,
Whites, Blacks and Asians. It's about needed money to keep the schools
operating. It's the "you help take care of us and we'll help take
care of you (via your offspring)' philosophy. Not hard to understand. Its
use is not limited to college entrants. It's also used in business
transactions all over the world. It's certainly not new nor is it news
worthy. It's simply how the world operates.
There's another kind of affirmative action that benefits primarily
wealthy white people. "Legacy admissions" allow offspring of
high-contributing alumni easy access to Ivy league and other elite schools.The Great "Conservative" President GW Bush benefited from his
legacy status. His grades from high school and test scores weren't good.
No Problem! His Daddy was a distinguished, rich, and powerful alumnus. GW had NO
trouble getting accepted to Yale.George W Bush benefited from
Affirmative Action, and I am reasonably sure that Obama did too.On
the other hand, Clinton was all Clinton, an overachieving nerd, who earned
everything got.But many of this nation's most powerful people
benefited from Affirmative Action in the form of legacy admissions to elite
schools. If Daddy gives a couple of million to his old alma mater, do you think
Junior is going to have trouble being accepted?I think it's a
little too early to give up on affirmative action for Blacks, given the fact
that Whites still benefit so much from it.
@southmtnman - Provo, UT - Why turn this into a "bash liberals"
thing?..."Nobody is trying to "bash" liberals.But we sure as heck are pointing the blame at those who deserve to take it:
liberals.- Would you want a sub-standard doctor operating on you or
your child?- Would you want a sub-standard lawyer representing you in
court?- Would you want a sub-standard architect or engineer designing your
home?- How about a sub-standard airline pilot flying you home for
Thanksgiving?Liberals will scream "We don't want that!"
but the REALITY of racial quotas for colleges and jobs is that those kinds of
things DID occur and still occur because those who didn't measure up were
allowed to enter schools/training programs and graduate anyway.And
yet, apparently, liberals are still screaming for more bias and sub-standard
quality to exist.Dont' like being called out? Change your
I don't know why this is even a thing. Don't discriminate between
people-for or against them-on the basis of race. It's easy. If fewer XXXX
people than YYYY people go to college, keeping YYYY people out or drawing
underqualified XXXX people in to maintain some arbitrary quota does nothing.
There are plenty of YYYYs coming from less-off families who need the help and
there are plenty of XXXXs coming from well-off families who don't need
it.If YYYY people become the minority, that doesn't change
Gary OI'm about as far right as you are far left, and yes I
agree, if Asians are doing the best they should get into the elite colleges. I
don't care if an entire class is all Asian, or white, or black, or female,
or......... As long as they were the most qualified, they should get in. Race
should have nothing to do with it. Affimative action has been legalized racism
and should have been unconstitutional from the beginning. However liberals
don't respect the constitution when it gets in the way of their agenda.
Hopefully this Michigan decision will become a 50 state policy. There, what do
you think of that?
GaryO, I completely agree with your arguments that the Asians should have gotten
in over the whites if they were more qualified. When race becomes a determining
factor, racism is at hand.However, it is completely silly to suggest
it is conservatives who are the ones perpetuating the racism of affirmative
action. After all, you quotes a Harvard study, and they talk about the top
colleges accepting whites over more-qualified Asians. Are Harvard, Stanford,
UC-Berkley, etc. conservative institutions, or are they more liberal? You bet
they are die-hard liberal!Screwdriver, I don't care if
it's 99% black and 1% white, I don't think I should automatically be
given a job over far better qualified blacks simply because of my race. It would
be nice to land the job, but it's not right. In a way, it's a slap in
the face. It's like saying you need the color of your skin to make up for
your lack in other areas. If I make it into a prestigious college I want it to
be because I earned it, not because I was pitied.
gary,And yet isn't it interesting I've never heard a white
person defend the racism against Asians when a white is given preferential
treatment over an Asian - and in fact if its true it something most of us
don't know exists. If it does - I'm against is as I'm against
racism.I could use excuses like "I just want equal opportunity
as the Asians" or "the system is built to discriminate against whites
and help Asians" but I wont use those - again - as I'm against
racism.I'm glad we don't hear those poor and inexcusable
excuses from the white population to justify racism. All my white friends and
myself are against racism.
You may not want to have reversed that since white people will be a minority
very soon. But have it your way. Don't complain when the Chinese owned
company your grandchildren want a job with only hires Asians. Affirmative action was never anything more than striving to have a population
of a college or employer be the same as the demographics of the population. 70% white population = 70% students were white. 12% black population =
12% students were black.
According to the Harvard Law review . . . " it has long been documented that
Asian-Americans need higher SAT scores than their white counterparts to get into
top colleges. One study even suggested that on the old 1600-point SAT scale,
“Asian-Americans needed SAT scores that were about 140 points higher than
white students, all other quantifiable variables being equal, to get into elite
schools.”It's really too bad that underqualified Whites
consistently displace much more qualified Asians at top colleges, don't you
think?Anti-government - Why should "academically unqualfied"
white students weasel their way in to top colleges, when they are completely
undeserving?Chris B - " . . . its racist to discriminate
against whites for being white in favor of blacks."And it's
just as racist to discriminate against Asians in favor of undeserving
Whites.It's not complicated Conservatives."Racism is racism."
Hutterite,Do you agree that affirmative action is racism?Are you against affirmative action? Just curious Or did you just
want to spin this into gay marriage, even though its not relevant to the story
Why turn this into a "bash liberals" thing?Are we as
conservatives that insecure and desperate?Argue the merits of
affirmative action or not, but don't stoop to such partisan labels and
simple-minded bashing, please.
"The decision is a setback for diversity advocates"Translation? This is a setback for academically less qualified students.Its about time.Fascinating the definitions liberals come up
with to suit their political agendas. Reverse racism is A-OK as long as they
believe they can buy a vote with it.I sure hope minorities soon
realize they are the unfortunate political pawns of liberals. Fact check dot
org even says poverty has worsened under the obama administration. How could
that be you ask? They lined up in droves to vote for the man because he was
their savior yet they are all worse off.I sincerely hope these
people realize that lining up for supposed political "gifts" and
"freebies" just further enslaves them.Allowing someone into
a university when they are less qualified is the same thing is hiring someone
less competent to do a job. The business and/or the university don't
benefit from lowering the bar.Diversity is nothing but a politically
correct way that democrats buy political votes and ultimately destroy our
society. You are not strengthened as a nation by adopting ideologies from
countries these people are scrambling to get away from. Duh.
It's about time that some common sense crept back into the courts.
As noted in previous posts, racism is racism, discrimination is discrimination,
and we are each a minority of one, with inalienable rights. This bodes well for
same sex marriage.
Re: "Yes, Dr. King would be proud indeed!"And, he'll be
just as proud when the Supreme Court, perhaps even the 10th Circuit, applies the
same reasoning to Utah's Amendment 2, upholding it because "[t]here is
no authority in the Constitution of the United States or in this Court’s
precedents for the Judiciary to set aside [Utah] laws that commit this policy
determination to the voters."
Yes, Dr. King would be proud indeed!If its racist to discriminate
against blacks in favor of white because blacks are black and whites are white,
then its racist to discriminate against whites for being white in favor of
blacks.Its not complicated liberals!Racism is racism
It is wonderful to see some of the institutionalism of racism, sexism and other
"isms" that have seeped into our judicial and governmental systems over
the past few decades start getting reversed.It is a major step
toward the day dreamed of by Martin Luther King, myself and many people, when we
will be judged based on the content of our **individual** character and
behavior, rather than arbitrary characteristics of one kind of group identity or
another. When we will each be acknowledged as unique human beings with equal,
Creator-given rights, each a minority of one.