@poymanJust to follow up on what Utesby5 posted; which is totally
correct. Utah finished ranked higher in basketball (per the Sagarin rankings)
too; Utah #45, BYU #47. It's always good to actually know the rankings
prior to talking about them. Let's face it, neither team did
very well in either sport. The fact of the matter is that even when Utah had a
bad year, they beat BYU on the field/court, and in the Sagarin Rankings. Those
rankings were always the reference made when BYU fans would state the "we
lost the battle, but won the war" slogan. I guess when you lose both the
battle and the war, the Sagarin rankings are quickly forgotten.
When was the last time Byu lost in the NIT? oh Utah lost just last week in the
NIT, i'll go with current events Alex for one hundred
@poyman:"How long ago did UtahFB finish ahead of BYU in
Sagarin's ratings?"Ummmm, how about last season? Utah #34
Jabari did so much for duke against Mercer I don't think he would have
helped byu much
Uteology and Chris B love to talk elite programs, but they know, they will never
have a national championship or conference championships in football or bball.
So, what they do is point to their conference affiliation….which does
nothing but keep them locked in at the bottom of that group. It's really
quite funny. The Utes have had 2 good years in football, ever. And fewer
final rankings since 2000 than big brother BYU. But, with some more funding
coming in for all the poundings they absorb in the PAC12, they can expand their
tiny stadium and at least appear to be in a power conference. No one will
care, but they can use that money to hire new coaches and a better stadium to
sit empty….we'll see. Go sub .500 Utes. Even in Utah, BYU gets
all the press. Nationally, the Utes and Utah State are routinely confused even
by real sports fans.
Poyman:Utah's recruiting, at least in bball has been worse? I think
not. They have some very good recruits coming in the next year. They will be
very good in the years to come in basketball. Football is another story, I
don't know that they will ever fully compete in the PAC12 in football, but
in basketball they will definitely have some success. They're future looks
bright on the hardwood.
MyPerspective:Did you honestly not see the blatant sarcasm of
CougarSundevil's post? Or just trying to pick what you wanted to hear.I concede Utah's superiority historically in bball, if Utah fans
will give BYU football credit for their superior history to yours with
achievements U have never had.About this article: BYU had major
issues defensively and in rebounding this year. That's not something Jabari
Parker would have changed because he's not a great defender but unlike Duke
BYU would have had more mature junior players surrounding him. So yes, I think
BYU would have gone further with him but not to the final four. The final four
is reserved for teams with either great coaches or great players or both. Coach
Rose is a good coach, not great, with good players, not great. When Utah went 16
years ago they had a great coach and a couple of very good players. That Utah
team wasn't overly athletic but fundamentally sound with an intelligent
floor general in Miller. I agree with another poster, until Rose teaches
lockdown defense BYU will never be in the final four.
The Utes are MUCH closer to competing in the PAC than byu is to the final four.
I guess if you're a sports fan in the state and you have post season
disappointments year after year the best thing you can do to take out your
frustration is to try and throw rocks at your nemesis... misery often tries to
recruit company. Unfortunately, Utah is not nor has it been at
BYU's level of athletic success for a number of years now... It is true
that the utes beat BYU the last four FB games and they even managed to beat BYU
in BB this year (that hadn't been done since 2009 and they haven't
beaten BYU in Cougarville since 2005... that's nearly 10 years ago)... But
despite the ute wins the nation continues to view the Cougs as the best sports
program in the Beehive state... When was the last time BYU
didn't go to a Bowl game??? When was the last time Utah did? How long ago
did UtahFB finish ahead of BYU in Sagarin's ratings? Or in RPI in
Basketball? BYU has been invited to the Dance 8 times in the past 10 years...
Utah has made it once... BYU has had excellent recruiting years... Utah's
is getting worse.
@ Blue and WhiteWhile Jabari missed the boat, you have missed the
point. To think that Jabari can only be a good representative of his church by
going to BYU is wrong. Jabari is or isnt a good representative of the church by
his faithfulness not the choice of his college. He has a chance to represent his
faith to those who aren't familiar with it instead of those who already
lol Christopher B, you're the one to talk about sensible comments,
aren't you? Since your anti BYU obsession leads to such "sensible"
comments. With that said, I agree with the quote from Back Talk in your 1:31
post. Neither BYU nor Utah should be talking about prospects of a Final 4
appearance or Championships until they get close at least. Especially Utah. They
should try getting in the tournament at least first.
What about the Elite 8 with Ainge and the boys? Or was that "ancient"
history? Yes, it was fantastic to see the Utes make the final four and give
Kentucky all they could handle. I was equality proud of both programs.
I don't live in Utah, so I'm not immersed in the BYU and/or UofU hype.
Both teams are not taken seriously by anyone outside the Beehive State. And
the major sports networks don't waste their air time mentioning them and
regard them as a joke. Case in point, when BYUs seeding was announced, one of
the announcers exclaimed, "I don't agree with that, they shouldn't
be in at all", or something to that effect. Personally, I think it's a
bit of anti-Mormon bias, but then, that's just me. Still...Until BYU quits being kings of 'one and done' in basketball, and
aligns themselves with a conference in football, they will remain that way to
the rest of the country. How do they do that? Improved
coaching...killer instincts (we're too nice)...not be Utah (sorry, but
it's not highly regarded by 'the outside world - why no NBA stars will
come to the Jazz for example)...lots of things that can't be fixed by the
one or two superstars the author proclaims as the 'fix all' solution
-- one good run won't do it, it has be constant.
BYU is more like 12 or 13 players away from a Final Four appearance. LOL!
@Who am I Sir?The good news for your bowl winning percentage is that
it should stay high for a long time since not being included in a post season
bowl should ensure that you won't have any more losses.Other
than two BCS bowls, most of those wins came in years that U went to the lowest
level bowls and played lower level competition than BYU. The reason? U
generally finished lower in the conference rankings and the Y got picked before
your for more competitive match-ups. U could get invited to a bowl game for the
next 15 years and still not have as many bowl appearances as BYU...
A lot of teams would make it to the final four "with one addition."
Everybody wants a Jabari Parker or Andrew Wiggins.
@ blue & whiteWhy should every great LDS player play for BYU? I
understand it's the church's school. But Jabari Parker has a great
opportunity to be a representative of his LDS faith playing for a different
school. Think about it! It's a great missionary opportunity that Jabari has
while he uses his basketball talents. It's good for the LDS church to get
exposure by a good athlete playing in a different part of the country.
Who Am I Sir?It appears you like numbers, since you mentioned
football:BYU Football 1922 - Utah Football 1892, 30 years before
BYUBYU 4 top 10s - Utah 3 - Edge BYUBYU 18 Top 25s, recent 2011 -
Utah 5, recent 2010 - Edge BYUBYU 4 top 20 BCS rankings - Utah 3 - Edge
BYU23 Conf titles, all 23 since 1964 - Utah 24, 6 in the WAC or MWC since
1964 - Edge BYU31 Bowls - 13 For Utah - Edge BYU0 BCS Bowls - Utah 2
- Edge Utah13 Bowl wins - 13 for Utah - Push1 National Ship's -
Utah None - Edge BYU8 Hesiman Trophy Finalist - Utah 2 - Edge BYU1
Heisman Trophy - Utah 0 - Edge BYUAs of 2008 146 BYU players in NFL, 48
played in Superbowls, 1 two time SB winner, 1 SB MVP - Utah 27 NFL, 5 played in
SBs, 3 SB winners, 1 two time - Edge BYU4 Davey O'Brien award winners
- Edge BYU7 Sammy Baugh award winners - Edge BYU1 Doak Walker Award
and Jim Brown Trophy - Edge BYU2 Outland Trophy Winners - Edge BYU1
Maxwell Award Winner - Edge BYUYou talk post season play, what is
the percentage Utah has for playing let alone winning the National
Championship? Answer, 0%. If you want to see a trophy case filled
up great looking trophies, you'll have to drive down to Provo.
Blue and White,Jabari Parker had to choose between a coach who
can't seal the deal in the WCC and a Hall of Fame legend who is one of the
greatest coaches in collegiate history. Jabari chose well.
Here's another "what if" hypothetical question to ponder... What if
Dave Rose could actually teach fundamentals and a player leaving the program
would be a better player than when they entered the program?
"And for the last 30 years byu has proven what they are in the big
dance." 2013 SWEEP - And what is utah's "big dance"
record for the past, let's say, 10 years? Let's see - they got pounded
by a 12 seed Arizona State in the first round when utah was the 5 seed.
Jabari Parker missed the boat not going to BYU. what a nice opportunity to
represent the school and church. He would have ended up going to the NBA no
matter who his head coach was. thank goodness there are some great athletes who
chose BYU over other schools, they have a dream to make BYU one of the best. we
will get more of those great ones to add to the great athletes we have who have
the vision to choose BYU.
All this is true. Had Jabari signed with BYU and Kyle not been hurt, this would
have been a final 4 year for BYU. I have been watching BYU basketball for a
long, long time, and when we do have a good team, we are always one player
short. We are never able to get enough good players or enough depth to win a
championship. We'll have a lot more really good teams, but I don't
think we'll ever make the final 4 in my lifetime. Odds are far better
now because the one and out has eliminated the really great teams. There is
more balance, but the game has changed too. It is not really basketball any
more...at least not as it should be. Traveling is rarely called, the game is
too rough, the shot clock is destroying the game, the 3 point shot has destroyed
the flow and strategy of the game, etc. The goal is to take the game and make
it playground basketball. BYU will never get enough of that type of athlete to
@MacNastyWhen I posted the 2009 football preview I thought I should
update that to current figures.Utah's record is currently 13
wins and 4 losses (77% winning record. Still the highest in the nations among
teams with more than 10 games!) BYU's 13 wins 18 losses and 1 tie (winning
percentage of 42%.
@MacNasty"Bottom line is that a national sports entity has
ranked BYU #16 of all D-1 schools which participate in football and
basketball."Facts: Basketball NCAA post season history: Utah
27 appearances : 35 wins; 30 losses (53.8%) BYU 28 appearances: 15 wins; 31
losses (32.6%) If BYU won the next 20 games it would still have a lower % than
the U! Football: Phil Steele's 2009 college football preview listed
the all time post season records for all the Division 1 football teams. There
were 74 teams that had played 10 or more post season games. Which of the 74
teams had the highest winning percentage? That's right - UTAH at 78.6% (And
it wasn't close as the next best team had a 70.0%) On the other hand, which
team had the worst winning percentage? No it wasn't BYU. There were 4 teams
with a lower percentage than the Y!!! (But it was close as two of four teams
were within 2.4% of BYU's 35.2%)Nice try to put meaning into
CBS comments that obviously was not there!
@LevinYou said "That list seems to be based on teams in the
tournament this year. If, by some miracle, Utah had made it to the Dance, they
would probably have been on the CBS Sports list as well."You
need to read my post and the article before commenting. Considering Utah has a
losing football season for two years running and has had a losing basketball
program (except this year with a very weak schedule), Utah will not even come
close. Sorry.Yea the teams are in this year because they win in
basketball and football, have been doing so for a while and are well
established. Sorry again
Transfers from other programs seldom make a team better. Aytes who was benched
from a UNLV team that didn't even qualify for the NIT and Fisher from a
Wake Forest team that had their first winning season in several years but still
didn't qualify for post season play is supposed to make BYU a Final four
contender? How well did it work when Collinsworth got injured and the UCLA
transfer Carlino suddenly was thrown onto the court? Solid recruiting and not
inheriting others problems is the way to go from my perspective.
"BYU's Final Four drought could end with one addition"An addition of Jabari Parker didn't help Duke in the first round. He
wouldn't have made much of a difference if he played for BYU. If BYU ever wants to make a trip to the Final Four, then they need to play a
championship caliber defense. BYU hasn't had a very good defense in a long
time. If BYU thinks that they can make a run in the tournament with a couple of
great players, then they'll be in for a rude awakening come March. Look no
further than BYU's 2011 team who were loaded with great shooters, but they
couldn't advance beyond the Sweet 16 round. Having great players can only
take you so far. But great defenses will take you even further. Defense wins championships!
Utah basketball is only history. Presently, they are not very good.
@MacNasty: That list seems to be based on teams in the tournament this year. If,
by some miracle, Utah had made it to the Dance, they would probably have been on
the CBS Sports list as well.
FYI: For Ute fans and BYU haters,An article at CBS sports titled
"Seeding NCAA tournament football/basketball combos 1-16"
(cbssports.com, March 19, 2014) ranks BYU #16 in the nation. Utah is not
mentioned. The article states that "one off year won't kill a
well-established program. Two might."Bottom line is that a
national sports entity has ranked BYU #16 of all D-1 schools which participate
in football and basketball. Utah is not listed. If you
disagree, write CBS.
@CougarSunDevilEvery post you, all of Chris B's monikers, and
Utelogoy make on BYU articles only confirms my point. You guys can't let go
of BYU. They are too important to U.----------Imagine
that a rival being an important team. Wow! One thing for sure,
unlike "some" BYU fans I never had to pelt officials with garbage after
yet another loss ... even during the 80s when BYU owned us.Like
BYU's fans like yourself have NEVER post on Ute articles, right? You post
more on Ute articles then you do for your first and second team combined.
It only takes one or two great players in basketball and you’re in
business.-----------It only takes one or two NBA
prospects in basketball and you're a final four contender.Utah
has one so far, hoping Chapman is the other.
"Drought"Doesn't that sort of imply something happened,
then it didn't happen for a long time.When was the first time
it happened(final four for byu in this case)?
"Ya, its fun to play the "if only" game"Like the
kids living under the crimson bubble playing "if only" we still had a
program like we had in 1998.Unfortunately for U, that program died
over a decade ago, and despite the yearly predictions about how much better the
Utes will be "next year", the Utes haven't even sniffed an NCAA
tournament win since Bogut left.The truth is, a team that is in the
NCAA has an infinitely better chance of making the Final Four, than a team that
is on the outside looking in.
Tator :"To their credit, BYU doesn't pad their
pre-conference schedule with lots of division II teams"LOL! In
other words, none of the 8 best basketball conferences in the country want to
invite byu and therefore byu is forced to schedule tough out of conference games
because their conference is terrible. That sound about right?As for
Utah, to Utah's credit they scheduled a very difficult conference
schedule(yes, we picked it. We could have declined the Pac 12 invite and moved
to a tiny conference instead. But we didn't, we chose to play tough teams
year after year after year in conference play). Improving the
dialogue tator? Ya, we'll believe it when we see it
Tators,You're like most byu fans. You rip on Utah often and
then expect something different in return. Sorry, doesn't work that way.
byu is the closest to an elite program we have? I disagree. Utah
is one of the top 25 winningest programs in NCAA basketball history.
Utah's history is the NCAA tournament dwarfs anything byu can throw out
there. Elite programs perform in the tournament and considering byu
doesn't have a history of ever really doing that, I'd say Utah's
past of multiple deep tournament runs makes Utah closer to returning to elite
level, as opposed to a byu team that's never been considered and elite team
ever. 1 sweet 16 trip in 30 years?You must be so
proud.And you're right, Utah has finished in the bottom of the
Pac 12 most times in basketball and football. And guess who can't beat
that Utah team ever in football and at least the last time we played in
basketball? byuHowever "bad" we are, you' cant beat
My Perspective"If byu fans will do that then Utah fans can focus
on working through the challenges of being in an elite conference."Exactly what do "fans" have to do to work on being in a conference?
Buying more merchandise? I think you can do that without burdening yourself by
going to BYU articles and posting on them. Also, how does BYU fans
'admitting to Utah's superiority' (you missed the sarcasm of the
post I think) effect Utah in any way, shape, or form? Just like I posted before.
Utah will never be great in the PAC-12 because they can't let go of BYU.
BYU is way too important to them. Every post you, all of Chris B's
monikers, and Utelogoy make on BYU articles only confirms my point. You guys
can't let go of BYU. They are too important to U.
Jabari Parker? Duke just lost to Mercer. Rule of thumb has alway been that a
college basketball team needs at least three NBA caliber players to make it to
the Final Four. Will BYU ever get there? Who really knows?
@ Chris B:And when it comes to the PAC12 "power" conference,
Utah has proven time and time again they are one of the "have-not"
teams, by consistently finishing in the bottom half of the conference in both
football and basketball. Have they ever had a winning conference record in
either sport since joining?@ Alex T:You are totally
wrong about there not being any what-if's in sports. Any time a star player
for any good team goes down to injury, the what-if scenario becomes
legitimate.BYU was a finalist in the Jabari Parker sweepstakes. As
such, the "what-if" becomes a great question, had he chosen to come to
BYU this past season. It was a reasonable possibility after he chose to visit
the campus a couple of different times prior to deciding. There's no
question BYU would've won some more of those close games to nationally
ranked teams. And getting one national recruit like Parker could
improve a team's recruiting for years. So yes, the what-if
scenario is both real and legitimate when it comes to sports and the
possibilities one decision of a single player can make.
Add One more player who can shoot and what do you have? At most 5 guys on the
floor at any time all trying to shoot. Until there is added passing, defense,
rebounding, defense, assists, defense, etc. you will have the same tournament
"history" that the NCAA must "honor"!
Personally I have no problem with fans wishing for the stars, that's fine,
whatever floats your boat..... But the bar is seemingly incredibly high now.
"Kids" are coming out of high school with size, speed, and professional
skills that are simply amazing.Competition for those "kids"
is so extreme now teams are investing millions into buildings, equipment,
broadcasting systems, and stadiums at a pace that could have otherwise resolved
World Hunger. So now a national championship will require a
combination of a slew of tangible and intangible factors --- recruiting,
injuries, coaching, play-calling, facilities, marketing, etc etc, so many
aspects it's difficult to say ANY team may ever be 'guaranteed'
to win it all.Clearly, one thing the article failed to mention, and
probably should have, would be that the primary/necessary requirement for ANY
Utah team to win a national championship in a major sporting venue would be ---
Divine Intervention. Perhaps that's something Utah would be
good at, something we can ALL get to work on. :)
CougarSunDevilPhoenix, AZ"So, BYU fans, let's all
admit that Utah has us on the ropes and admit to their superiority."Great idea. If byu fans will do that then Utah fans can focus on
working through the challenges of being in an elite conference. Then, all of
the nonsense on these sports boards will stop.
@ Chris:I'm still curious as to why you are always one of the
very first to comment on almost every BYU sports article. And why your comments
concerning them are inevitably negative in nature... without exception. It
demonstrates a very strong bias which makes it nearly impossible to give any
credibility to your comments. I mention this only because I'd really like
to see the level of online dialog improved. Currently, you're not
helping.It's true that BYU is not currently an elite program.
But it's also true BYU is the closest in the state to becoming
one.To their credit, BYU doesn't pad their pre-conference
schedule with lots of division II teams, but instead schedules multiple
nationally ranked programs, beating some and playing very competitively against
others. Positive step in the right direction. Even though some
anti-BYU detractors try to dis BYU for not making it to the NCAA Final-4,
it's easy to forget that only 4 out of about 350 programs get there every
year. The odds are very low. Credit them for getting to the
tournament more than any anyone else in the state in the past decade.
@JP,You can split hairs if it makes you feel better, but the BCS
still exists for all intents and purposes. College sports will
continue to be ruled and dominated by the BCS power conferences.Call
them BCS, call them power conference, call it whatever you want.Not
much has changed. There are still have "haves" and the "have
For the first time in a long time. Utah fans have a point. I agree with all of
their comments. This article is extremely humorous. Any sensible BYU fan
wouldn't agree with a thing Brad Rock had to say. There are no
"what-ifs" in college sports. Until BYU can prove themselves on the
court or the gridiron....enough with all of this.
@Back TalkThis will take some getting used to, but there is no BCS.
There are no BCS conferences. There are no BCS schools. There are no BCS bowl
games. There is no BCS.
I agree with most of the Utah posters on this article. BYU is not an elite
basketball program. It doesn't matter that they've gone to the NCAA
tournament as often as the article cites over the most recent past. They
haven't done anything WITH it! BYU having gone to so many NCAA tournaments
and only gaining ONE Sweet 16 appearance is clearly a non-starter. Now, us BYU
fans need to recognize Utah for their superiority. Utah won against BYU this
year. Never mind that they didn't win against BYU over the last 7 years,
that's irrelevant. Don't bring up that they haven't been to the
NCAA tournament since who knows when. And please, before BYU fans bring up your
Sweet 16 appearance, don't forget that it was Utah who has won a NCAA
basketball championship. It's irrelevant that it was before most of our
parents were born and it's alright for them to bring that up, but it's
"laughable" that BYU fans bring up the 1984 Football national
championship. That doesn't count. So, BYU fans, let's all admit that
Utah has us on the ropes and admit to their superiority.
Drought?? That makes it sound like it's been a long time since you've
been there. Moses found the Promised Land faster than BYU has the Final
Four.Coach Rose has put some decent teams together but is far, far
away from being Final Four material.
@Back Talk"Please stop talking about useless topics like final
fours and national championships until you have a proven record of getting
close. That will put an end to this forever."That is the most
sensible comment I've ever heard from a Byu fan. Are you a byu fan?
Please stop talking about useless topics like final fours and national
championships until you have a proven record of getting close. That will put an
end to this forever.Realistic BYU fans can hope that in the future
they will actually win the WCC season and tournament championships. BYU
football fans can hope that a BCS game might be a possibility. Otherwise, please "let it go" as I think the popular girls song goes.
Final 4 by adding ONE player? Are you serious? Maybe if it's Lebron
James.BYU is much farther away from the Final 4 than ONE player.
the rock"The only reason that BYU is a mid major program and not
an elite program is the fact that too many top LDS athletes go elsewhere"
The only problem with your statement is logic doesn't fit in there. I've heard byu fans argue just the opposite - that the reason they
dont get great talent is the recruiting pool is so small and they mostly can
only land Mormon kids. But now you're saying if byu got all the Mormon
kids they would be elite?Because on average Mormon kids are the type
of talent of Duke, Kentucky, Florida, and other elite programs? Don't
blame me - you're the one who said byu would be elite with all the Mormon
In other new, the Jabari Parker-led Blue Devils just got bounced in the first
round. Maybe one Jabari-esque player isn't all it would take after all.
Ya, its fun to play the "if only" gameIf only Davies had played -
he didn'tIf only Jabari had picked byu - he didn'tIf only
Jake Heaps turned out to be good - he wasn't At the end of the
day byu has the most ncaa appearances without a single final four. I think
that's more telling of how "close" they are now than pipe dreams of
the next Jabari taking byu to the final four. And if you're
going to play that game, you could also say byu was just one player away(if Haws
had gone elsewhere) to be a very middle WCC team with no bright future at all.
Teams are what they are. And for the last 30 years byu has proven what they are
in the big dance.
The most important and most difficult part of any college coaches job is
recruiting. If a slightly above average coach can land a couple of super stars
then he can end up looking really good. The only reason that BYU is a mid major
program and not an elite program is the fact that too many top LDS athletes go
elsewhere. Once the Jabari Parkers of the world start going to BYU and they
consistently go deep into the NCAA tournament, BYU will become a destination,
not a second choice.