Newly released reports provide clues and details, but few answers
My bi-polar ex tried to commit suicide over a
non-violent/non-relationship-ending argument one evening, so it might be
something relatively trivial. To murder 2 innocent children besides is
inexcusable--though I see some folks are trying with all their might by blaming
drugs and mental-health issues. Crazy or not, drugged or not--there is no place
for violence in civilization.
I'm not an anti-gun person, and have enjoyed hunting for many years.
However, it's silly to compare guns to cars, hammers and knives. Fire is a
better comparison, because it can be extremely destructive and deadly, if not
properly controlled. The only purpose of a gun is to damage, injure or kill.
On the other hand, the normal functions of cars, hammers and knives are very
constructive, although they can be used deadly weapons.That being
said, I'm also very uneasy about the U.S. "police state" being the
only possessors of guns. We's all heard the saying, "if you outlaw
guns, only criminals will have guns." An even more scary saying to me is
"if you outlaw guns, only police and the military will have guns." From
what I have observed, many policemen have very poor judgment concerning the use
of guns, and shoot to kill in many situations where lethal force is completely
unnecessary. I think the constitutional right to bear arms should not be
minimized, but there has to be a better solution for keeping guns out of the
hands of those who will misuse them--including boneheaded policemen and military
tailoring human behavior with chemical cocktails invites any number of untoward
effects. studies on drug effects merely determines a blanket safety factor for a
broad spectrum of individuals, but each individual has different reactions,
subtle as they are. each individual evolves in a separate environmnet, unique
experiences and reacts uniquely. these chemicals are unlike the basic nutrients
we actually require to survive, such as we evolved from (water, air, simple
foods, etc) . throw in the civilization we now endure, along with constant
stress of global possible events, and other destabilizing inputs and we end up
having have entire groups with 'dysfunctions', all seeeking some sense
of peace, safety and contentment. humanity being what it is, 6 billion unique
individuals, isn't a management issue, its a simple matter of accepting
uniqueness, as is.
As that great philosopher Sammy Cahn observed, "Guns and madness, guns and
madness / Go together like despair and sadness."
taking everyones guns away is not the answer. far more people died in car
accidents, than by guns. nobody is calling to outlaw cars
Cougsndawgs and Anonym I have worked with depressed and mentally ill people for
25 years and have yet to see any proof that antidepressants save lives. I have
worked as an expert in many high profile murder suicides associated with the use
of antidepressants since 1992. Dr. Candace Pert whose discoveries made
antidepressants possible sat on our board until her death last year. She
publicly denounced the drugs as "monsters" in 1997.When you
speak of "negative effects" ... I do not classify murder and suicide
just another "negative effect". I continue to ask why we, as a society,
allow drugs with murder and suicide listed as possible reactions to remain on
the market? Does that not make us responsible also? What are we doing?!
Why are you covering old news with no new news? What was the point?
Anonyme:Well stated on all counts. I remember that talk by Elder Morrison
and it was excellent.What many people don't seem to understand
is that there are numerous examples of medications that have some negative side
effects (in fact all of them do). What we as clinicians have to weigh and
constantly evaluate are the risks associated with side effects and the benefit
the medication can provide. This is the case with all medications, not just
antidepressants or psychotropics.airnaut:I appreciate your
input and respect the fact that you were able to find faith as the answer to the
struggles you had. As I said antidepressants aren't for everyone, and
everyone is going to respond to them a little differently. I also tell my
clients/patients that there is no drug that will cure your depression (I
don't push pills and many others in my profession don't). I tell them
that it takes a myriad of changes to see truly positive results including
nutrition, exercise, stress management, relationship management, therapy with a
trusted professional, and certainly faith in God and loved ones around you to
uplift, as you suggested.
You know, there probably isn't a good answer here, because I just
don't understand the depths of depression, but I struggle with the stories
we see over and again when an adult who is obviously going through some hard
times decides that they need to end the lives of their children. To deny these
kids a chance at happiness... I don't understand. But I don't live in
that darkness that those who do have depression live in.It is just
sad to see parents feel ownership of their kids, and have the right to choose if
their kids live. Happens way too often.
why are some people allowed to be parents? This woman was seriously mentally ill
and had no business having custody of these little girls. There needs to be some
legit way for neighbors or family members to report suspicious behavior to state
authorities so they can at least investigate and perhaps prevent this sort of
thing from happening in the future.
re louieCottonwood Heights, UTGuns are necessary to protect us
and our families right?---So you believe if she
didn't have access to a gun, she and her kids would be alive?
"Kyler Ramsdell-Oliva, 32, once told her fiance that if she were to ever
commit suicide, she would "get a gun" and take her two daughters with
her".----Beyond really weird, reinforces the
saying, don't judge a book by its cover.
Airnaut, what 3% are you talking about? If you're suggesting that 3% of
people taking antidepressants “go crazy and kill,” you need to
provide some serious documentation. Because that's just fiction. You mention God. I don't know your religion, but you might be interested
in this quote from Elder Alexander B. Morrison of the LDS Church in the October
2005 Ensign article, “Myths about Mental Illness”: “During the
past 40 years numerous medications have been developed by the multinational
pharmaceutical industry. These products have proven of inestimable worth to
millions.” No mention of lemmings.
@ louie:Question... What do cars, hammers, knives, fire and guns
have in common?Answer... Even though they've all been used in
the deaths of a lot of people, all have also had an almost immeasurable positive
effect in society. Like so many other things in life, it all depends on how the
user chooses to use them. The positive results from using each of them by far
outweighs the negative results. In civilian life, many more people
have been protected and saved by guns than have been killed by them. Your
sarcasm shows an anti-gun agenda that is very short-sighted and narrow-minded.
Please ponder the bigger picture a bit more.
Ann Blake Tracy said, “The FDA states that any abrupt change in dose of an
antidepressant . . . can cause suicide, hostility or psychosis.” There is
NO mention of the word “psychosis” in prescribing information. It
does say that hostility has been reported in patients being treated with
antidepressants, but there is NO assertion of the medication as the cause of
those symptoms. Do you have a citation for your claim?At any rate,
does this mean you believe what the FDA says? Because the FDA also says this:
“Studies did not show an increase in the risk of suicidality with
antidepressants compared to placebo in adults beyond age 24; there was a
reduction in risk with antidepressants compared to placebo in adults aged 65 and
older.” It also says, “Suicide is a known risk of depression and
certain other psychiatric disorders, and these disorders themselves are the
strongest predictors of suicide.” That means that this tragedy was likely
the result of the underlying condition, not the treatment. If you're going
to use the FDA as support for your speculations, you need to accept all of their
The tragic details of the double murder-suicide and the woman's seemingly
increased erratic behavior in the days just prior are detailed in newly released
police reports obtained by the Deseret News through a public records request.======== Cougsndawgs West Point , UTAnn
Blake:I personally have worked with the depressed and mentally ill
population and it would be difficult to quantify how many lives antidepressant
medications have saved.===== Although saving 97% is
good, making 3% go crazy like this and kill is NOT acceptable.I was one of those 3%.I was lucky -- I never killed anyone.I
also STOPPED taking those pills, and got my life back!Thank to God,
and not the Pharmaceutical Industry and their pill pushing lemmings.
When somebody has a plan for how they would commit suicide, that is usually not
a good sign. This woman sounds like she was disturbed for a long time. Sad she
didn't get intervention.
louie; to blame the gun is crazy. the gun didn't pick itself up and shoot
the three people. If she had used a kitchen knife (butcher knife) to do this
would you be saying ban the knives? Now, I'm not sure if that's where
your comment was heading, and if not, I apologize, but it sure seems that
it's so. This is indeed a tragedy and I feel for the families of all
involved and as the other 2 comments mentioned, and the article also, something
should have been done about her medications. Especially if she could go so ape
while in an argument with her boyfriend.
Guns are necessary to protect us and our families right?
Ann Blake:I personally have worked with the depressed and mentally ill
population and it would be difficult to quantify how many lives antidepressant
medications have saved. While some of what you say is true, it doesn't
address the whole picture. The reason risk of suicide increases when someone
starts antidepressants or changes to a new medication is that it increases the
individuals energy level much sooner than it increases their serotonin and
norepinephrine levels to help cope with depression. So they have more energy but
are still depressed. This is when friends and family need to be on highest
alert, but the serotonin and norep levels soon catch up and therapeutic levels
can be maintained.Not everyone requires an antidepressant and I
agree that they are probably overused, but they do help and I've seen
example after example of that personally. For someone that is severely and
clinically depressed what's the alternative? Take nothing and hope it works
out? I've seen how that goes also and it's tragic.This
story saddens me and is certainly a tragedy. I hope the family and people
involved can find some measure of peace.
How many of these does Utah have to see before they wake up? Murder-sucide =
antidepressant use. That is what you will find spelled out in prescribing
information for these drugs. (You may have to read to page 42 to find it
though!) Kyler's best friend and now her fiance have both stated she was
taking drugs for depression. The FDA states that any abrupt change in dose of an
antidepressant, whether the dose is increased or decreased, can cause suicide,
hostility or psychosis. A mother killing her two daughters and herself would
involve all of those. And her fiance states here that they were regularly
"adjusting" her medication. The why seems a simple deduction
when you read between the lines. Now we await the toxicology report for
additional confirmation.So is anyone asking yet what Officer Boren
might have been taking to cope with his failing marriage?