If I were absolutely rock-bottom destitute with literally nothing but the
clothes on my back, I wouldn't even know what to do with money I've
begged for. Handouts don't get me a job, a bath, clean clothes, or
shelter.If I give someone ten or twenty dollars, there's no
telling what they'll use it for. Even if they intend to try and use it
well, it may just be stolen. If I give that money to the bishop's
storehouse or to a shelter or kitchen, I know the money is not only going toward
its intended purpose,but it's doing so in a sustainable way.
I'll start my thoughts on this subject by confessing my ignorance to Utah
laws in this matter. Are organizations allowed to hold intersection collections
in your state? If this law is being considered in the name of safety, then other
"panhandlers", such as fire departments, youth athelitic organizations,
etc. shouldn't be engaged in their collection activities at intersections,
as well. During the warm months, where I live, this is a common and, in my
opinion, an unsafe practice, whether it be panhandlers, or those collecting for
their respective organizations.
I see no harm of panhandlers and hobo's looking for work and gas money but
it seems the charitable organizations see some revenue resources by taking a
percentages of the peoples money they drop off around the valley at freeway
exits. So far this panhandling is all by americans citizens who want a job in a
city where jobs are supposed to be plentiful and extremely available, or else
the governor is lying about the true unemployment around 20% or more.These numbers are all misinformation and falsie information to imply to the
legislators and federal agency's that we don't have enough workers for
the demand with these low numbers so they demand more cheap labor from mexico to
replace americans who are not informed of these unlisted jobs for Mexico lies.
Its all about employer fraud and tax evasions not reporting employees taxable
income to the IRS.If jobs were accessible by these American
panhandlers don't you think they would be all over them if they knew about
them? However employers use discriminatory private distribution of jobs to the
BBB and underground mexican organizations about these jobs in a tax fraud scheme
of two century's.
Ultra Bob,Just an fyi... I didn't mean you any disrespect in my
reply to you. And thank you for your respectful response.For the
record, I also don't think government should force you to support anything,
any charity, any church, etc. I'm more concerned with where people are
going to get help, not if it's through certain organizations, etc./////1 - Google. Lots of $10 family meal recipes exist.2 -
Potatoes. Flexible, low-cost. A $2-4 bag will feed a family 2 or 3 times.3
- Avoid pre-made. It's hard if you haven't learned to cook. Invest in
learning.4 - Soup, the poor man's food. I practically made soup every
other day this winter.Everyone has time to cook, otherwise we'd
die off as a species. In the time it takes to go to a fast-food chain, I can
make some pretty taste stuff. It just took practice to get there. Every
high-school should teach kids how to make a roux, a couple soups, ways to use
potatoes, and how to bake bread. It's helped my life far more than some of
the classes I had.
We are going to outlaw begging based on safety. Sounds like EPA outlawing
drilling based on an endangered specie. Are we going to put beggars
in jail? There surely must be a better approach than criminalizing begging.
Know it.I left out the word "families" in my previous post.
A better post would have been 4 families consisting of 7 adults and 4 teens.
And, that doesn't count the two teens who support themselves and the great
grandkids living with their working mother. I cannot refuse my own offspring,
even though mostly it's their own fault. If you can feed a
family with $10 you could help me if you tell me how. The people
who give to charity for the tax deduction are profiting on the deal. I don't think government should force me to support churches and other
people, especially those I don't like, through charity.
Every human being stands in need of help. Every human being is responsible for
their service or lack of service to others and we'll all be held
accountable to God for itThat said, Christ didn't carry around
bags of money like Ebenezer Scrooge.The Savior gave and gives
comfort, faith, healing, love and forgiveness. I'm not perfect, but
I'd rather imperfectly follow that example than Scrooge's. And if
everyone still must contend with me.. I must assume people are simply looking
for an admission of me being flawed.They can have it. I'm
I am so tired of these panhandlers. They are on just about every corner that
gets much traffic. KSL has done a few really good investigations on panhandling,
and I can't remember one person they focused on that used the money
legitimately for food or housing. They are all pretty convincing liars, and just
use the money to feed their habits. If I ever see a panhandler smoking or with
body tattoos, I don't give them a penny. Harsh? Not really, if they can
spend money on those items, they should have enough for real necessities of
I Know it ...You and I will just have to agree to disagree. In your
$10 analogy: I might be going out on a limb, but a $10 "gift" is, in
statistical parlance, a three sigma event. The "smokes" probably
constitute what is probably the biggest vice of the beggar in most people's
eyes. We've seen or heard of the $300 a day panhandler. Hate to break it
to you but that's an urban myth.Are their plights actually
conveyed on their cardboard signs? I saw one fellow who had several signs
stashed in a bag in his shopping cart. Maybe that gentleman has actually
"learned" to fish? Are the the signs not "bait"? HIs
"message" may be as genuine as the health benefits of Tahitian Noni
Juice, but the latter is socially acceptable. Both "businessmen" are
targeting a customer with "testimonials". HB101 discourages charity yet
many claim charity should replace taxation when it comes to the poor.You can on one hand praise the Church for it's welfare programs but on
the other condemn the government for the same thing. Taxes and Tithing are
collected for the privilege of membership ... but taxes are another topic
The impulse to help those less fortunate can be met in many constructive ways.
Unfortunately, enabling is not the same as helping.
Great idea, shove the downtrodden further and further into obscurity. After
all, Christ said, "if you can't see 'em then that means they
don't exist." Then He waxed philosophical about how giving to
conglomerate institutions is far more effective than actually helping people.
It's simultaneously sad but ironic to watch Utahns justify
their disdain for their fellow brothers and sisters.
Ultra Bob,I also give my personal belongings and money to those
close to me who need help. But that has nothing to do with an organizations
ability to help people effectively. The LDS Church proves that every day.What can $10 do?It can feed a familyORIt can buy
a man a 7-11 hot-dog, some smokes, and a cokeI do agree that giving
it to a brother may help him immeasurably at a time of need. But two facts
remain. 1- that it can likewise enable. 2- that organized help can take that $10
and use it to feed 3 families. And if a tax deduction convinces more people to
give, then I welcome it. I don't have to preach idealistic dogma to the
world about the morality of a tax deduction. I do feel compelled to encourage
people to help in ways that are safe and more effective.
@know it. Most of my financial contributions to people are directly
in the form of money. I don't give any money to commercial charities. We
regularly give our unwanted "stuff" to commercial charities because the
stuff is too good to put in the trash. And the commercial charities are willing
to come and pick it up. Charity is a business and is operated to
produce profits for the owner/managers. If you think giving money to people
harms them you probably have some examples of where commercial charities have
helped end the causes of poverty. My cash donations to poor,
destitute, people are those given to 4 of my extended family relatives and as
adults they don't accept much advise. It depletes my retirement savings
and if my wife and I don't die in the next couple of years, the whole
shebang ends up on the street. And I don't get a tax deduction.My contributions through my taxes are distributed to millions of commercial
charities, churches, Arts things, museums, zoos, monuments, theatres, amusement
parks and even political organizations that I don't like. They get the tax
deduction, I don't.
The greatest danger posed to our society by the street beggars in the
embarrassment to the rich and powerful for their failure to correct the problems
that create street beggars. For they know that when the street beggars have had
enough of poverty the will stop begging and start demanding. Like those in
foreign nations now. We have the ability to end poverty if we would
throw out the business control of our government and operate our civilized
society for people.
"Don't feed the bears" ordinances should be targeted at the
motorists who, bless their hearts, are the ones truly "impeding". The
police should be issuing them them citations if they indeed pose a safety
hazard. I remember Box Elder bugs when I was growing up there. I think the
intolerance of "nuisance pests" is the attitude exhibited by the
legislature and the funny thing is, like the box elder bugs, the only way to get
rid of them is to cut down the tree.And to "I Know it, I Live
it, I Love it" ... you must have missed the question on the righteousness
exam on Matthew 19:21. I believe the verb the Savior used in that verse was
"give" though the proceeds are not stated explicitly. I disagree with
your claim that you're only protecting your family. I could be mistaken,
but I doubt there have been any cases of assault or vandalism reported ...
unless your conscience was "assaulted".
Too bad that people in our society are stripped of pride, dignity, and
self-worth that they will stand in traffic soliciting the beggars ransom.
Perhaps it is upbringing, life's misfortunes, mental incapacity, or the
result of choosing addictive drugs and substances that have led them to the curb
and cardboard requests. Others appear afflicted by injury or disease, even
wheelchair bound. Some even appeal as victims, such as single pregnant mom
short on rent and formula, wearing a nice dress and a smile.While
some are driven by greed, appearing to manage their location on a regular basis,
or in teams. It must be a lucrative business that does well in a religious
community taught to give to others without question.I support this
legislation, because it will allow law enforcement to redirect these individuals
to safer places, facilities, and organizations designed and dedicated to render
the much needed aid. It will curtail the criminal element seeking easy
earnings. It will also redirect those who enable this practice, to share
I Know It...,Well said!
what about "fill the boot" campaigns run by the fire department to raise
money for "jerry's kids"? it sounds like if these types of
ordinances are passed the fire departments will have to find another way to
raise money. after all, "fill the boot" campaigns would be defined as
the "the unsafe transfer of money or other personal property in a
roadway." unintended consequences, but real consequences.
It'll be interesting to see if this works. Any kind of multiple use of a
roadway always puts the motorist at risk of liability and should not be
accepted. That includes not only the panhandlers but any of those pushcart
reenactments, foot and bicycle road races, etc. Roadways are built for
automobiles, and the laws of physics cannot be overturned or ignored. Keep them
off the streets.
I was at the light at 1300 East and the east bound exit of 80 and the amount of
trash stacking up behind the wall where the panhandlers stand is awful. Every
corner by freeway exits is littered with all their trash they don't want to
carry with them. They want free money and want to ruin our communities. Like an
above comment. . . there are plenty of places to get help, the street corner
isn't one of them!
I am 100% in favor of this bill and hope it passes quickly.
This would be a reasonable thing to do. I know this is an employment situation
for them, but by standing where there is traffic distracts the drivers. I have
watched a van drop panhandlers off at different locations before. I worked
downtown where the same people maintained the same corners all the time. I have
visited with them many times. I look at panhandlers as people who have chosen
this method to earn money and I don't shop at their store. I volunteered
at a homeless shelter for one year helping tutor the children and truly enjoyed
it. I learned all the things the different organizations do to help people get
on their feet and it is truly great. Stop lights and traffic corners is not the
place to work - it is too dangerous for both the panhandler and the drivers who
don't pay attention.
Myth: Helping the needy means giving them moneyProtecting our
families doesn't make us less Christ-like or loving or good citizens, etc.
It just means that we're not naive in a world where people abuse the
naive.I believe in helping, but not in ways that hurt people or
enable them to hurt themselves. There are 6 homeless shelters in Provo, yet I
still see people who are homeless sleeping elsewhere. Offering real help is
usually denied. Why? If they wanted help, they'd go where they know
they'll get it. I know this from experience. I see it every day. When I see
people who just throw money at others, all I see is people who want to pretend
problems don't exist, pretend their helping people, but don't want to
actually do anything to really help. That or in ignorance perhaps they actually
thought they were helping. But the truth is, it doesn't help.Giving someone fish doesn't teach them how to fish. Giving them a fish
doesn't even mean they'll eat it. In a world full of problems we need
to be solvers, not enablers.
The EPA and Democrats should be out in full force on this. The number of idling
vehicles, spewing their toxic poisons into the air is only increased as people
that "feel" like they're doing "good" by enabling
panhandlers, while holding up the traffic. It's dangerous, it backs up
traffic, it increases the pollution, it's a hazard having pedestrians
running in between cars.I watched a woman in the rose park area,
driving up and down the road in her jazzy with a dog on her lap, panhandling car
to car. When I called the police, the dispatch asked if the situation is
dangerous. Yes it is dangerous when a jazzy that has no lights, driving the
wrong way, in a lane of traffic, with a driver that seems oblivious to the
dangers she is in and an unsuspecting driver will be in.That's
not free speech. Again, that's someone else's "right" trumping