Letter: Employ Americans

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  • GK Willington Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 24, 2014 7:27 p.m.

    to Roland Kayser & Mike Richards on page 1...

    How many many Americans work in STEM Fields as opposed to "Financial Services"?

    Where I work, a majority of the software engineers are S Asian or E Asian. A majority of the MBA's are Caucasian.

    Why? Could it be the Republican war on Education? Could it be Hollywood glorifying Wall Street and stereotyping nerds? Is it both?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 24, 2014 12:20 p.m.

    L White
    Springville, UT

    You and your "hubby" live in a world 50 years ago.

    Hard work is not rewarded, and neither is a good education.

    In today's world,
    If a person works hard, and makes $9,
    and another person doesn't work as hard, but makes $725 an hour...
    A Business will keep the cheaper labor each and every time.

    I have a brother-in-law with a Bachelor's Degeree in Micro-biology.
    Grew up on a Farm, knows plenty about getting up early and working hard!
    $60,000 in student debt, he makes $9 an hour now working in an Auto-parts store.

    I know a guy in my ward,
    didn't go to college, but is a genius with cars.

    Can't get a job,
    Because in today's market - a Bachelor's Degree only nets you a $8 an hour job.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 24, 2014 9:19 a.m.

    Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah

    You are good worker,
    but a lousy businessman.

    A good worker shows others how to also be a good or better workers,
    they are concerned with the job, and by sharing knowledge -- make the job easier for each other.

    A good business man would train someone else just enough to do job "A", and nothing more,
    reducing their over-all "value",
    and them pay them the very least amount possible.

    Knowledge is power,
    and Power is money.

    Corporations don't want knowledgeable and higher value employees.

  • SLars Provo, UT
    Feb. 23, 2014 12:55 p.m.

    Mike Richards - "Are we slaves, or do we have feet?"

    People walk away from a job because of poor pay, benefits or working conditions, and the business will just hire more people here illegally or demand congress give them more visas.

    The American worker is not on a level playing field, and has not been for 30 years.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Feb. 22, 2014 7:19 a.m.

    I know our dear friend Mike Richards likes to create his own reality, but this statement takes the cake....

    "The auto industry started buying robots (for hundreds of thousands of dollars - each) to replace people who came to work unprepared, hungover, on drugs, and sleeping when the boss wasn't around."

    "Sleeps when the boss wasn't around" ...... what, they just shut the line down when the boss wasn't around? Mike, have you ever seen, less alone worked on an assembly line? The level of distain you present towards those who largely built this nation coming out of WWII, American Industry, is surprising. It was American manufacturing that powered this nation.... these were not all drug induced drunks sleeping on the job.

    I just don't understand why some despise the working class so much. What, because they were unionized, they were all drunks? Good grief.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Feb. 21, 2014 8:27 p.m.

    It is "greed" on both sides - employers and employees.

    Just as govts. are comprised of people, so are markets. Labor markets determine the wages of janitors and CEOs. They are comprised of people on all sides of the equation.

    Previously, in the 60s and 70s, US labor markets provided more income to line workers and less to corporate executives. Since then, more of corporate earnings have been shifted to corporate executives and less to line workers. This has not been true in other countries that compete quite successfully with us.

    There is no magic in the current wage ratios. They simply reflect our current thinking on the respective value of different categories of labor. We need to investigate why that is vs. relying on simplistic answers.

    Note that it is incorrect to compare most corporate executives with entrepreneurs who start businesses by risking their own capital. Most are simply high rent employees who had absolutely nothing to do with the start of the businesses they run. They bear no more risk than the employees they supervise so risk cannot explain the huge differences in compensation rates.

  • SLars Provo, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 7:31 p.m.

    Hard to convince people that the gap between rich and poor is due to the rich working harder. Do the 1% really work a million times harder than the rest of the country?

    We need to narrow the gap. Raising the minimum wage forces business to deal fair with their workers, and not to rely on taxpayer assistance. It seems the real socialists are the business community, and the Capitalists are those who want business to pay fair market wages.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 3:46 p.m.


    I think it is great that the Gates have donated money to organizations they support but it does not excuse their responsibility to those that helped them accumulate their wealth. Simply claiming that you are absolved from your responsibilities over here because I did something right over there seems a little strange. Let me give you an example of how that would look if we applied that logic in other parts of our society. "its alright that Bill hit someone while drinking and driving because he volunteers at a detox center on the weekends.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 3:41 p.m.

    Haha, that's too funny, 2bits thinks that because USA companies incorporate offshore so they can scam the tax system, or because they live wherever they want, that somehow indicates the same sort of competition that depresses American workers wages. Too funny.

    And you have somebody else that thinks workers are greedy because they ask for better wages or benefits. Too funny. You have somebody that says her husband is a great example of what a worker should be: keep your head down, work as hard as you can, and be thankful for whatever the corporation gives you. My dog does the exact same thing. Then you have others who talk about all the risk these rich people take. People who create businesses take risks. These are mom and pop shops, and I absolutely respect what they do. No CEO of a corporation takes a risk. They make money even if the company loses money. For example, no CEO of McDonalds has ever had one penny of risk since Ray Krock.

    I love business creators. They are the life blood of our economy. Big Corp CEOs, like the Waltons, are not.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 3:38 p.m.

    well I suppose if you think paying a wage that does not allow the people that assisted you in accumulating vast amount of wealth to even meet the basic needs of them and their families is ethical then we do have different ideas about what is ethical. You seem to believe that when it comes to business simply because someone can they should regardless of the consequences to those around them, shall we ably this same reasoning to all aspects of our society?

  • wrz Phoenix, AZ
    Feb. 21, 2014 3:04 p.m.

    @spring street:
    "Hey, maybe I (Bill Gates) need to act responsibly towards those that have helped me accumulate this wealth."

    Well, Bill and his wife have given away millions to charity. Does that count?

    @Roland Kayser:
    "Why are U.S. CEOs and Wall Streeters not subject to foreign competition?"

    They are subject to foreign competition. And they can't beat them. So, they moved their business overseas. 'If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.'

    "Better yet why do you think the United States Government should subsidize huge corporations... in the form of welfare for their employees?"

    Government subsidy is needed because the government lets in huge numbers of foreigners thus depressing wages... requiring the government to provide benefits like food stamps. Send foreigners packing and keep the government out of business and things will normalize.

    "No, it is Greed -- 'Capitalism without a Conscience'"

    You can't take 'conscience' to the bank. It's worthless in our economic system.

    "second I do think business have an ethical obligation to act responsibly towards those that help them generate their wealth..."

    They act responsibly... they pay a wage. Besides, who's supposed to define 'responsibly?'

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 2:21 p.m.

    Roland Kayser,
    RE: "Why are U.S. CEOs and Wall Streeters not subject to foreign competition?"...

    Do you assume they don't have CEOs in China, Russia, Germany, Japan, London, Venezuela, etc??

    Do you assume they don't have banks, stock markets, wall streeters, etc, in these countries?

    How do you assume there is there no global competition for CEOs? Obviously there is.

    But not to the level of unskilled labor. Those jobs are more highly contested and more easily exported (or workers to do them more easily imported).

    But to pretend there is no global market for these positions (just because they are in what the Left consider to be "vilified" groups)... is just absurd.

    Do you assume CEO jobs never get sent overseas? Hint... most large US tech companies actually claim their headquarters is overseas, or are incorporated overseas (for tax purposes). Many CEOs live and work in Europe, Asia, etc. There is global competition.

  • Curmudgeon Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 1:33 p.m.

    L White: Is it any more greedy for workers to want a share of the profits they help create than for the employers to want cheap labor to generate those profits? Greed works both ways.

  • intervention slc, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 1:02 p.m.

    @L White

    So what does the (so called) workers) mean?

    Why is it greedy for the workers to want a share of the wealth they help create but not greedy for the business owner(who does also help generate the wealth) to concentrate that wealth to the determinate of those around them? Again as others have stated it is not so much that people do not deserve to have wealth but you can do so responsibly.

  • L White Springville, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 12:37 p.m.

    Now we're talking! Someone mentioned "greed", but that poster said that employers are greedy. Can you believe that? The (so called) workers are demanding that the owners give them their wealth and then they tell us that the owners are the greedy ones! Isn't greed just another word for coveting? Is it easier to covet what someone else has or what you already own? If we replaced the word greed with the words work ethic, maybe we would find why the rich are rich. Of course not everyone has equal opportunities but I do not know anyone who works hard that is complaining about not having enough. My hubby works hard. He always has. He doesn't complain about how little we have. He tells me how blessed we are to have exactly what we need to do the things that we need to do.

    He moved from a town where there was no opportunity, started at the bottom and worked hard until he was the worker that the business owners went to when they needed something done. You will not hear him complain about wages or jobs. He's a doer, not a talker.

  • SLars Provo, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 12:35 p.m.

    The surplus labor created by illegal immigration and record legal immigration has depressed the wages of America's workers the past several decades. We are not dealing with a fair market value. It's been dishonestly manipulated by the business lobbyists.

    Business doesn't want to deal with fair market value, they want surplus labor to drive down wages like agriculture did in the seventies. How would business like it if their customers were allowed to artificially set the prices they pay?

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 12:11 p.m.

    @j thomas

    two thoughts

    first don't forget we are "the government." It is both easy and dangerous to dismiss responsibility for what "the government" does bur ultimately it is simply a reflection of our collective will, if we allow it do otherwise it is our own fault.

    second I do think business have an ethical obligation to act responsibly towards those that help them generate their wealth, again that doe not mean they do not have the right to accumulate wealth just do so responsibly. I do however think it would be best (though maybe not realistic) to get Business to do so through social influence rather then more laws for them to ignore or find ways around. Ultimately the best way to get someone to act responsibly is by getting them to understand why it is important rather then trying to force them to do it through the force of law.

  • Nunn24 Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 12:01 p.m.

    @Mike Richards -

    "Try it."

    You are denying the reality of employer Greed and the way this surely and adversely affects the hardest-working and most ambitious workers in the world -- namely, the typical American worker, including many who, in fact, have diligently trained in STEM fields, in vain. I wonder how your sons -- or their sons -- would fare if starting out today.

    "Work ethic" is not about working hard only to be taken advantage of. Alarmingly this "ethic" apparently has been passed on from one generation to another!

    No, "work ethic" is about diligent and faithful work, of course. But ALSO it is about a fair and adequate reward for such time and labor. No one is saying anything about paying anyone any more than that. True "work ethic" is a TWO-WAY street.

    After all, the worker is making an investment, too -- a major, personal investment, in that employer's business.


    "Just the facts of life."

    No, it is Greed -- "Capitalism without a Conscience" -- a moral disease persons can rid themselves of, if they choose, but don't.

    Thus Jesus foresaw that Greed would be a major problem in our day. "Camels, and Eyes of Needles."

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 12:00 p.m.

    @Mike Richards. Why do you think everybody is lazy? Why do you think nobody has any value?

    Better yet why do you think the United States Government should subsidize huge corporations like walmart, mcdonalds, etc in the form of welfare for their employees? You say these people should get an education and become more valuable. Well, I agree with you but the truth is there is not enough good paying jobs in the U.S. If every person got an college education all it would do is drive down wages.

    The key component in this wage argument is the government should stop giving tax deductions and incentives to companies that pay poverty wages. The government should only provide incentives for companies that provide good paying jobs. I say if walmart and other companies like them want to pay what they pay, fine. But their is no reason the government has to subsidize their business and hide the true cost the companies product and services.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 11:30 a.m.

    I find it interesting that the same people that always try to claim a moral superiority so easily wash away any need to act responsibility by saying its simply supply and demand and therefore I have no ethical or moral obligation towards others or society.

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 11:17 a.m.

    There is too much talk of the government FORCING businesses to pay an "American Wage". What nonsense. If the government has that power, then what are you going to do when the government tells you that no family needs more than 750 square feet of housing and because you have twice that amount, you are going to house another family - at no charge - because obviously, you have too much money, too much house and too little compassion for those that the government wants to keep on the voting rolls.

    We are not chattel as employees, and we are not chattel as business owners. If employees aren't satisfied, let them walk out the door. If they're as valuable as they think, they'll have no trouble finding a better job.

    The 5th Amendment requires that we be paid by the government for anything that the government takes from us, including our businesses, our property, our patents - anything. The government owns nothing. It never has owned anything. Business owners pay all taxes and all taxes are included in the price of anything that you buy. Without profits, there would be no taxes.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 11:04 a.m.

    Why are U.S. CEOs and Wall Streeters not subject to foreign competition? They make hundreds of times more than their foreign counterparts. The reason is that they are the ones setting the wages for themselves and for their workers. Wages are not determined by a free market. They are determined by employers having vastly more power than employees.

    If you have a rare skill and you can demand premium dollars from your employer, your employer will run to congress saying he can't find any Americans to fill your position. What he really means is that he wants to pay manual labor wages for a high skill job. Since he is the guy making all of the "contributions" to congress, they give him what he wants.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Feb. 21, 2014 10:52 a.m.

    Are we slaves, or do we have feet? I have walked away from jobs that didn't pay enough, but I made certain that I was well qualified for a better job before leaving. That's supply and demand in action. Many people in my field, including me, spent at least two hours a day learning about the advances in computers and how to implement those advances. I've been doing that since I started in 1976. That means that I didn't have time to watch TV, but those hours have kept me 'valuable' to the people who pay my fees.

    The first thing I did for my teenage boys was to get them a job cleaning horse stalls. It didn't pay much. It stunk. It was hard, heavy work. Everyone of them knew that he didn't want to work for minimum wage after shoveling manure all day long. They all have advanced degrees that they funded. They have marketable skills. They command a good wage, much higher than average. They are worth their "cost" to their employers.

    Sob stories don't add value. Complaining doesn't add value. Skills and work ethic adds value. Try it.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 10:49 a.m.

    yes Bill created all those jobs by himself. it certainly had nothing to do with the labor of all the workers here in the US both high paying and not so high paying jobs and those not so high paying jobs in sweat shops in Mexico and overseas. I do not think it is wrong for the Bill Gates of the world to have some wealth from their hard labor but just like the rest of us there needs to be some sense of a moral compass that say, Hey, maybe I need to act responsibly towards those that have helped me accumulate this wealth.

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 10:49 a.m.

    Okay, Mike and his conservative friends, here's the deal. You can sit in denial only so long (same as with global warming). We have a growing inequality problem. This is not just a political football. You conservatives are very efficiently painting yourselves into a corner defending the tactics of multinational corporations. Early in our Republic, corporations were not trusted by government. They were chartered very infrequently, and then only to serve a public purpose. The Founders had learned a lesson from dealing with British corporations (such as the British East India Company). The corporations they chartered were given a temporary life-span, generally 20 years of less, and were then disbanded once they had served their purpose. The Civil War and the development of a national railroad system changed all that. Court decisions, after decades of lobbying by corporations, finally declared corporations "persons" that can exist "in perpetuity." Over time, corporations increased their power, turning the American workforce into wage labor, a commodity, a cost to be minimized. The tail is now wagging the dog, and a good portion of Americans think this is a good thing. You know who you are.

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 10:45 a.m.

    Or I will throw this out. There will be a time when the masses say enough is enough. Then the whole system crumbles down. I'd rather not have this happen.

    The way it doesn't happen is through responsible and moral capitalism. That is the examples of Costco and In and Out Burger noted above. These aren't great paying jobs but they pay more than other places with similar jobs. There is more caring toward the employee but there is still a good profit margin. To me that is responsible capitalism. I'm also sick of tired of saying calling my cable company and being put on hold for an hour. Hire more people so you can serve your customers better. How many restaurants does one go to and there aren't enough servers? You pay a pretty big dime for the food and the service is lousy, not because people there are not working (very) hard, but because there aren't enough of them and people are overworked. I recently was in a McDonald's that was a pig sty. This was unsafe for the public at large. Not good capitalism.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 10:43 a.m.

    The standard of living in America requires more money than in foreign countries. So, foreign workers can work for less pay than American workers. Even when the foreign workers come to this country they will work for less. At least until they find the joy allowed by the American standard of living.

    Businessmen operate business for the reason of having a profitable income. It is natural and expected they will use the least costs and the greatest prices to maximize their profits. It is unlikely that we can change that.

    Early on business had to operate on the labor and prices of the area where they were located. Wages and prices had a direct relationship. In today's world, technology and distance has thrown the balance out of the direct relationship.

    Business will not voluntarily reduce their profits so that others can have a better life. They have to be forced by government. Or we have to lower our standard of living to better compete with the foreign countries.

  • Nunn24 Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 10:17 a.m.

    @Mike Richards

    The "blight on our economy" is businessmen thinking that to pay a worker what he actually deserves and has earned is to "overpay."

    How fascinating that In-N-Out Burger, for example, pays their people much more than do similar businesses, AND its retail prices are lower, AND its ingredients are higher in quality and thus more expensive undoubtedly, and yet it hasn't crashed. To the contrary, it has been thriving for decades, and currently employs 18,000.

    What's the difference?

    The Christian owners of In-N-Out actually take their Christianity seriously, that's what. They are not driven by Greed -- by the pursuit of growth and profit to the exclusion of basic moral considerations.

    If a business isn't able to survive -- in fact thrive, as In-N-Out has -- while paying its workers a FAIR wage, perhaps there is something wrong with its business model.

    Just as the Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people (John Adams), so also does "free market" not work in a society where one takes the advantage of another because of his words, digs a pit for his neighbor, or oppresses the hireling in his wages.

  • Brer Rabbit Spanish Fork, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 10:10 a.m.

    Mike Richards claims that he believes in the laws of supply and demand setting prices which defines the worth of a product. However he then refuses to accept wages as a product of supply and demand. I wonder how he would feel if his work(livelihood) were flooded with cheap foreign labor or product. Globalist Libertarians would flood not only the unskilled labor market but the STEM jobs as well for the purpose of depressing wages. Globalists and Libertarians are generally investors and employers, who feel that they are above the unwashed working class Americans. These people would often like to go back to slavery and indentured servitude.

    By flooding the labor market with cheap legal and illegal labor wages are being depressed in almost all labor markets. Over 2 million immigrants per year is a flood, especially when many jobs are being lost to mechanization, automation, and off shoring factories to cheap labor countries. Yes, if there were a lot fewer immigrant workers, the labor market would tighten, wages would rise, and prices increase. Using immigrants to depress wages and prices is a distortion in the economy, which at sometime will cause economic and political problems.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 10:09 a.m.

    @Mike Richards
    "Americans who expect to be paid more than their value to a business are a blight on our economy"

    The people in charge of the company have full determination of this "value", regardless of how much or how little of the business profits they want to pass on to employees through wages. There's no inherent fairness to it at all.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 9:56 a.m.

    I know there are companies and industries where this works (hiring Americans, and paying top salary). And that's great. But there are also industries where it doesn't work. Coincidentally... these are mostly jobs we are told Americans won't do.

    Try opening a roofing company, and hire Americans at the wages they expect. Number one, you won't get any applicants (Americans don't want to work on a hot roof when they can just stay home in the air conditioned apartment with a government pay-check, government insurance, government food, and whatever else they need).

    But even if you did find some people who would take the job, and you promise to pay top wage. You would get no business, because you would win no bids. Unless you can find a way to roof a house for less than your neighbor's company that hires people willing to work in the heat, and to work for far less than your employees.

    There are many industries like this (fast food, construction, harvesting, etc). But there are other industries where it pays to offer top wages and benefits to hire the best candidates possible (like you pointed out).

  • wrz Phoenix, AZ
    Feb. 21, 2014 9:39 a.m.

    @spring street:
    "how dare those workers want a wage that will actually keep a roof over their families head and a minimal amount of food on the table?"

    Roof? Food on the table? Did you forget cell phones, ipads, 47 inch TVs in every room in the house, annual vacations to Disney Land, eating out several times a week, etc? I tell ya, life is tough.

    "those poor poor picked on billionaires at the top just cant get a fair shake these days."

    You mean like Bill Gates who has created perhaps millions of high paying jobs?

  • Ajax Mapleton, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 9:33 a.m.

    @ Mike Richards

    They’re shiftless slackers. They receive benefits they don’t deserve. They live on easy street at our expense. Obama is to blame.

    Why this preoccupation to judge and belittle others, the constant attempt to meddle in their lives and the need to blame them for every ill? It’s like road rage in politics. To think that others are responsible for our problems and must be punished or “taught a good lesson” is delusionary.

    Maybe it’s time we grow up and focus more on our accountability and less on what we fancy--usually from personal feelings of inadequacy or vulnerability--to be the shortcomings of others.

  • wrz Phoenix, AZ
    Feb. 21, 2014 9:28 a.m.

    Dear Roland, wages are 'crushed' as you call it, for basically two reasons... (1) uncontrolled immigration, and (2) the global economy. Remember, in a global economy America has to compete with wage levels paid in other countries.

    Remember also, in our economic system the cost of wages (and the cost of everything else) is to be determined primarily by the law of supply and demand.

    "The problems is not that workers want too much, the problem is that the share of GDP going to workers is dwindling and dwindling, while the share going to corporate profits expands exponentially."

    If that's true, the answer is to stop importing labor from foreign countries. And stop subsidizing the unemployed American. I guarantee that, if unemployment benefits were cut, unemployed American would gobble up available jobs even if it meant competing with foreigners by taking their work picking apples or building houses.

    "Corporate America has been the biggest booster of high immigration levels, both legal and illegal..."

    No so. The biggest booster is our federal government who has failed miserably at determining our need for immigrant labor and enforcing current immigration laws on our books.

  • Curmudgeon Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 9:24 a.m.

    2 Bits:

    Costco's performance (and stock value) is a good illustration that one can succeed in a highly competitive business and still pay higher than average wages. In fact, I and a lot of other people patronize Costco rather than Walmart or Sam's Club precisely because they treat their employees better.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 9:23 a.m.

    how dare those workers want a wage that will actually keep a roof over their families head and a minimal amount of food on the table? those poor poor picked on billionaires at the top just cant get a fair shake these days.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 9:16 a.m.

    Roland Kayser,
    Weren't the raids at the meat plant in Logan (and other meat plants around the country) during the Bush administration (not the Clinton administration)? I think they were... kinda blows your theory that only Democrats care, and Republicans don't. That plant had the same employees during the Clinton administration and nothing happened. Bush the INS raided the place and sent the illegal employees home, but it was during the Bush administration (which wasn't supposed to care about companies hiring illegal aliens). Hmmm... doesn't work, does it?

    Same goes for the raid at the SLC Airport (and other airports that found so many illegal workers). Didn't happen during the wonderful Clinton Administration, but it did in the Bush Administration (But Republicans WANT illegals working). Yah.. right.

    There were several other big raids during the Bush Administration (can't remember specifics). But contradicts your statement, "Republicans will do what Corporate America wants, and what it wants is cheap labor"?

  • wrz Phoenix, AZ
    Feb. 21, 2014 9:07 a.m.

    "Pay Americans what they justly should be paid."

    And who's supposed to decide what Americans should be paid? In our economy that decision is to be made by the law of supply and demand. Allow more immigrants (legal or otherwise) and wages will be depressed even further.

    Artificially raise wages and immigrants will have increased incentive to come here for the higher pay. Plus, in today's global economy, higher wages will mean more jobs will migrate overseas. Just the facts of life.

    "They'll be there, qualified, in adequate numbers..."

    They'll be there as well if there were no government handouts such as food stamps and unemployment benefits. Who'd go to work toiling 8 hours a day when they can stay home and draw the equivalent 'wage' from the taxpayer?

    "Put sensible limits on student and H1-B visas, then, instead of raising them."

    Now yer talkin'. In fact, all American education should be reserved for Americans... not foreigners. What are we thinking, teaching foreigners how to compete with us? Crazy!

    "There is an overwhelming focus on profit..."

    Without the incentive for profit there'd be no capital to run our economy.

  • Curmudgeon Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 8:48 a.m.

    Business owners say "Sure I'd pay my workers more, if only they were more productive." The problem is, as workers become more productive, the owners just repeat the same mantra without actually giving raises commensurate with the workers' output, and pocket the difference. And then, like Mike Richards, they argue that workers aren't paid more because they aren't providing more value. They treat employees as an expense rather than an investment.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Feb. 21, 2014 8:48 a.m.


    The auto industry started buying robots (for hundreds of thousands of dollars - each) to replace people who came to work unprepared, hungover, on drugs, and sleeping when the boss wasn't around. Was that the fault of business or was it the fault of workers (and unions) who thought that they deserved a job no matter what the cost was to the business?

    As a youth, I moved sprinkler pipe on farms in Idaho. It was hard, back-breaking work that paid almost nothing. Now, when I travel through those same areas, the farmers have bought self-moving sprinkling systems that cost many thousands of dollars - because they couldn't hire people to do the work manually at any price.

    I work in the computer industry. This morning at 2:30 a.m., my phone rang and I started running diagnostics on remotes systems. I am well trained. I am motivated. My customers trust me. They're willing to pay good money knowing that the value received is worth every penny.

    Untrained, unskilled and unwilling workers demand more than they are worth. The rest of us are honest and we charge a fair price for fair value.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 8:47 a.m.

    @high school fan: Okay, let me give you one specific example: The meat packing industry. Meat packing has always been a tough, dirty, dangerous job, and no one ever got rich being a meat packer. But they used to be union jobs and meat packers could support a lower middle class family. The corporations managed to bust all the unions, fire all their American employees, and now virtually all jobs in meat packing plants are held by illegal immigrants who work for minimum wage, or less.

    The Clinton administration was raiding the plants and deporting the illegal employees. The corporations complained to the Republican congress and congress cut all funding for the program. That's why every time I hear Republicans talking about clamping down on illegal immigration, I know it's an out and out lie. They will do what Corporate America wants, and what it wants is cheap labor.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 8:37 a.m.

    It's sad, but true... most employers don't hire based on patriotism. They hire based on the bottom line.

    What we need is more people who post here that they would only hire Americans, and pay them more than market value... to go out and open up companies and do just that (instead of telling someone ELSE to do it).

    Once you invest all you have to open that company, and you are competing with other companies in the same industry that hire at the lowest wage they can (maybe even shipping their expensive jobs overseas)... and when you can't compete on price... just keep remembering... you're being patriotic, it's not about profits, or staying in business... it's about helping the country and doing your patriotic duty (while you watch the company fail).

    Heck, you will get a lot of great employees while it lasts (because you're paying more than anybody else)... but when customers are buying your competitor's products or services instead of yours (because he can deliver them for less)... You will at least know you were doing your patriotic duty (as you hand out the pink slips to everybody).

    Feb. 21, 2014 8:20 a.m.

    If workers want to be paid more, they need to work and provide value to the business. Many people today would rather IM friends and Facebook, instead of work. Then they wonder why they are laid off.

  • high school fan Huntington, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 8:07 a.m.

    It is so easy to blame Corporate America when that doesn't mean anything. Identify who you mean since most jobs in this country are created and maintained by people just like the rest of us, people looking to make another buck.
    I wish Liberals, in Roland's case, would quit generalizing and be specific. I believe most companies are fair but there is exceptions to this but they are the minority.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 7:35 a.m.

    @Mike Richards: For the past thirty years, Corporate America has waged a ruthless campaign to crush the wages of America workers, and they have succeeded very well in their task. The only problem is that their very success is making it impossible for a great many Americans to make a decent living.

    The problems is not that workers want too much, the problem is that the share of GDP going to workers is dwindling and dwindling, while the share going to corporate profits expands exponentially.

    Corporate America has been the biggest booster of high immigration levels, both legal and illegal, it is one of their best weapons in the fight against workers. I am very disappointed that my fellow liberals cannot see through this scam.

  • Fitness Freak Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 21, 2014 5:38 a.m.

    The high-tech industry learned from the "low-tech" industry - namely, its MUCH cheaper to send a bribe.........er.. "donation" to their elected representatives than to actually pay a decent wage. Then they get on the phone with Orrin (and others)and claim they "can't find enough workers" (cue the tears). Of course since the smarmy employer is "paid up" on his gratuities to his elected official, he has their full attention.

    The more H1B visas that are given out, the more Americans will be unemployed. Its that simple.
    When will our elected representatives start working for the betterment of actual LEGAL working Americans?

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Feb. 21, 2014 4:35 a.m.

    Americans who expect to be paid more than their value to a business are a blight on our economy. Instead of making themselves valuable, they think that they can demand higher wages for less value. When did they ever pay more than necessary for milk, for gas, for cable TV? They understand the basic law of supply and demand when they shop, but they expect that law to be waived when they demand more money for doing less.

    There is a very simple solution. Let the workers buy the businesses. Let the workers provide the capital. Let the workers take the risks. Let the workers try to sell overpriced products whose price has been inflated by overpaying labor and overpaying taxes. Let them lose, not only their jobs, but their businesses. Maybe then they'll understand that VALUE comes before wage increases.