Stronger pro-union measures are needed to save existing American jobs

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  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 18, 2014 4:44 p.m.

    To "Open Minded Mormon" have you seen the latest numbers on what the giveaways that your ilk likes have done to the US?

    According to the CBO the ACA will kill 2.5 million jobs over the next 10 years.

    Also, according to the CBO, raising minimum wage will kill another 500,000 jobs. On top of that, a lot of the minimum wage earners live in middleclass homes or are single college kids.

    Social Security is another joke. It is already paying out more than it takes in, and is destined to end in collapse. All of that on top of once SS is dead, the government will be forced to go to other more expensive places to borrow money, which adds to the national debt.

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Feb. 18, 2014 1:46 p.m.

    Open Minded Mormon:

    Continuing liberal "take-aways"?

    Small Businesses.
    Borders that mean anything.
    Laws that are meant to be enforced.
    Religious liberty.
    The main reason to get up every morning and go to work instead of sitting on the couch watching TV all day!

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Feb. 18, 2014 1:38 p.m.

    LDS Liberal:

    I'm sorry, but listing countries that have unions or countries that prohibit them is NOT an answer to the question: Do unions help workers more than harm them?

    Excessive union demands have killed entire industries in this country (or just driven all the jobs overseas). Government unions are bankrupting cities and states. Millions of dollars in forced union dues are often spent on the political pet causes of the union leadership that often is in direct conflict with the best interests of the rank and file membership.

    Please address those points instead of just telling us that Austria has unions or Iraq does not. Why is the liberal response to many legitimate questions a deflection rather than an answer?

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Feb. 18, 2014 12:45 p.m.

    Next Conservative "take-aways"?,

    Minimum Wage,
    and then,
    Social Security.

    Always taking away trampling the poor, sick, elderly and the needy,
    Always the give-aways to the uber-Wealthy have everything in this world, except enough money...

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Feb. 18, 2014 12:42 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" you are wrong. The Middleclass was created, ironically, by the plagues in Europe. When labor became scarse because they were dead, the wealthy land owners were forced to pay laborers more. Then, as the laborers earned more money they began to develop their own trade with other people and nations.

    You really should read more about history. The fact is that capitalism builds nations, while unions and collectivism destroys them.

    Actually, unions are alive and well in China. They have become a single union, and are the only legally recognized union. Read up on All-China Federation of Trade Unions.

    Bangledesh passed laws last year to allow Unions. India also has many legal unions, so again, you are wrong.

    For those that think unions are great, why is it Unions are to thank for the $1500 to $2000 addional cost for new cars made by US manufacturers?

    Also if unions are so great, why is it that so many companies in the US that used to be union shops are now doing a lot of manufacturing outside of the US where labor is cheaper and unions are not as strong?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 18, 2014 10:33 a.m.

    Orem, UT

    Labor Unions exist in Germany, Japan, Canada, and ANY other country doing better than the United States.

    Ironically --
    They are outlawed in Communist China, Bangledesh, India, and Somalia.

    So, to answer your question -- Are unions helping or harming workers overall?

    Conservatives are fighting to be like Communist China, Somalia, and every other 3rd world impoverished country.
    And even more ironically -- serious believeing we will some-how retain being a Bastion of Freedom and Hope.

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Feb. 18, 2014 9:42 a.m.

    The basic question is: Are unions helping or harming workers overall?

    Unions definitely had a place in history when workers were exploited by industry. They helped get safe working conditions and stopped a number of unfair labor practices. They still probably do some good things for workers.

    But like every big powerful organization, they have become corrupt. It seems that their primary concern is not in the welfare of their workers, but in gaining money and power that benefits their leadership. They don't seem concerned if business is hurt or their members are hurt as long as the union itself does well.

    Too many people look at places like Detroit and just say, the so-called "cure" is worse than the "disease", and like the VW plant, vote to say NO to unions.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    Feb. 17, 2014 7:49 p.m.

    @mountainman. What world are you living in? Workers get threaten all the time by their employers or politicians.

    From Sen. Bob Corker (R-TN).

    "I've had conversations today and based on those am assured that should the workers vote against the UAW, Volkswagen will announce in the coming weeks that it will manufacture its new mid-size SUV here in Chattanooga," said [Sen. Bob] Corker.

    The above statement was refuted by VW as being 100 percent false.

    Public pressure also by local politicians played a part. Local lawmakers basically stated that if the employees voted to go union they would withhold tax incentives for VW.

    Those are threats.

    I would also love to show you a picture of a young man who had third degree burns on his face and arms because he was exposed to an arc flash. He wanted the proper safety equipment but his employer(non union) said just to get it done or they will find someone else to get it done. His job was threaten. The company blamed him in the OSHA report as being a "rogue" employee. His word against theirs. Individual employees can not afford lawyers.

  • Fred44 Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 17, 2014 2:31 p.m.


    You said "No one threatened the workers because doing so is illegal". So an elected leader has never done anything illegal? Wow you must live in a different world than the rest of us. How do you know no one threatened the workers? Those workers needed a job to support their families if the felt threatened that may well have impacted their vote. Have you ever done anything you really didn't want to because it was in your families best interest at the moment? At the very least by honest and admit the republican leadership in the state lobbied hard against the union.

    The vote was about 60-40 against a union. The reality however is that Volkswagen has offered the workers a union of sorts in the form of a work council.

  • J in AZ San Tan Valley, AZ
    Feb. 17, 2014 1:15 p.m.

    RichardB has raised the issue of Border Control. That's a good hot button topic. But, I would suggest that if we really want good border control, we need to separate it from the immigration policy debate. Treat border control for what it really is, a national security and national defense issue. Take security of the border out of the hands of DHS and its alphabet soup of agencies responsible for immigration and hand it over to the department of defense. Law enforcement along the borders can be left with the Border Patrol, but actual creation of the security infrastructure needs to be a defense responsibility.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Feb. 17, 2014 12:44 p.m.

    @ Shaun. Baloney! No one threatened the workers because doing so is illegal and if you have proof, you should call the FBI! They voted their conscious and unions lost!

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 17, 2014 12:10 p.m.

    BTW --

    We did not have illegal immigration problems in this nation with Unions.

    Unions would NEVER hire illegal immigrants.

    Our illegal immigration problem coincidentally happened at precisely the same time that Anti-Union laws started getting passed...

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 17, 2014 11:44 a.m.

    Unions created the Middle class.

    No Unions = No Middle class.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    Feb. 17, 2014 9:32 a.m.

    @mountainman. Volkswagen vote did not pass because the workers were basically threaten with losing their jobs by the state and congress leaders. Volkswagen was fine with going union and their plants in Germany are unionized.

    Union elections are losing because they get threaten buy the companies(most of the time) and government leaders. I would bet the vote would of been different if the republicans would of kept quiet and not try to intimidate the workers.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Feb. 17, 2014 8:24 a.m.

    In Tennessee recently at a Volkswagen assembly plant, workers voted out the UAW! They did not wish to be forced to pay dues to a corrupt union. President Obama should order Lois Lerner to get the IRS to "investigate" the tax free status of unions in America because of their political agendas instead of only conservative groups.

  • anti-liar Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 17, 2014 5:00 a.m.

    This article is pure sophistry. It isn't about the well-being of this nation and its citizens. Rather, it is about covetousness, greed, and subversion of the rule of law, to the eventual, utter destruction of this country.

    No way would flooding this nation with foreign workers, both legal and illegal, help unemployed and underemployed American workers and otherwise benefit the country. Of course the opposite would be the case.

    Yet this is the falsehood the author apparently is throwing out in hope that it will stick somewhere.

    "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20)

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Feb. 16, 2014 8:44 p.m.

    If unions caused the destruction of the middle class then the middle class would have been destroyed in the 50s and 60s and would be booming today!

    The simple fact of the matter is if you do nothing to protect Amercican workers, then you will get an economy like you have today (that 1 percent love). If you protect American workers via unions, then you get the American economy that we had yesterday (but 99 percent wish that we had today)

  • Utes Fan Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 16, 2014 6:54 p.m.

    The premise is that legal immigration helps USA workers. However the h1b visa has done extensive damage to USA workers. The current proposals would add several hundred thousand visas EVERY YEAR. Given that the visa is used 80% of the time for off shoring and entry level jobs suggests that the visa is being used to replace US workers. In some years in the last decade more visas were used than jobs created in IT showing that the visa was being used to replace US workers. Extensive research clearly shows that the visa hurts US workers.

    We should be very wary of claims suggesting legal immigration benefits US workers.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    Feb. 16, 2014 5:41 p.m.

    @Mike Richards. It is interesting you blame unions yet they have been shrinking for thirty years. It is also interesting that the middle class has been shrinking for the last thirty years.

    I really like your economy theory about the race to the bottom, though. It would be really beneficial if everybody was paid less. It would also be a great idea to get rid of all those silly safety regulations because profits are more important than a human being.

    I also like your view on minimum wage. If there wasn't one their wouldn't be people who are unemployed, would no longer be unemployed and they would be off unemployment and this country would thrive.

  • samhill Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 16, 2014 3:26 p.m.

    "Comprehensive reform means a realistic, balanced response to the presence of millions of undocumented workers in our midst."

    Anytime I see someone refer to people who are in the country illegally as being simply "undocumented" I know they are too dishonest to place much faith in anything else they have to say. Especially on the matter of immigration reform.

    As I continued reading this letter from Mr. Rice, the more I realized such was also the case with him.

    I am all for drastic, comprehensive immigration reform. In fact, I think it is long overdue. Primarily because our immigration policy and especially the agency in charge of enforcing it, is woefully inadequate and/or incompetent. But, the kind of dishonesty shown by Mr. Rice and many others in their purposeful distortion of the current situation makes me very doubtful of their proposed solutions.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Feb. 16, 2014 2:44 p.m.

    How does importing underpaid illegal aliens to perform menial jobs "free up" those jobs so that "Americans" can move up? Since when has any American felt an obligation to take a menial job when a better one was offered?

    People are paid for the value of their work. Using "Chicago Politics" to strong-arm a business into paying more for labor than that labor is worth destroys business. Drive through Detroit and see for yourself. See what happens when workers believe the false promises of over-paid union bosses. Drive through the "garment district" of New York and see what "union wages" did to that industry.

    Look no further than your own wallet. How often do you insist that those who serve you take more than they asked for? Union workers shop at Wal-Mart, just like anyone else. They like oversized paychecks, but they're not willing to buy union products. That should tell us all we need to know about unions.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    Feb. 16, 2014 1:33 p.m.

    @mountainman. Sam walton was importing products form china long before the anti union mentality took over this country.

    It is no coincidence that as private union membership has fallen the middle class has fallen. Most companies today want their employees to work for peanuts and only care about enriching the shareholders of the companies, which in my opinion is short sighted.

    I am confident that once all unions are gone their will not be a resurgence of well paying jobs but a continue downward spiral.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Feb. 16, 2014 10:43 a.m.

    Unions do not create jobs. Businesses do that. But unions can create better working environment for certain vulnerable working groups (and that filters out as a betterment to all).

    I see much good that unions have done. But I am not a member of a union. My chief problem with unions is their political side. Yes, some of that is necessary for their mission. But much does not appear so.

    I think unions, corporations, and any other group should have the same limits on them. No candidate should be able to take money from anyone other than a living, breathing person (a natural person). If corporations, unions, or any other organization (NRA, NARAL, doesn't matter) they fire up the email, twitter, and postage machines and convince their members to write the checks.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Feb. 16, 2014 6:50 a.m.

    Unions do not create jobs, unions destroy them or drive the jobs overseas. Need proof? Go to Wal-Mart and look at all the Made in China stuff you can buy for less money! Americans vote with their wallets and Unions are losing the elections.

  • RichardB Murray, UT
    Feb. 16, 2014 12:41 a.m.

    I have not heard anyone demonizing legal immigration. Mixing the two is deceptive and dishonest. The AFL-CIO is not a National labor union anymore, they are International, and could care less who is here illegally, as long as they join their union.

    “Comprehensive” immigration reform is part of the bad faith that has surrounded immigration issues for decades. What “comprehensive” reform means is that border control and amnesty should be voted on together in Congress. Why? Because that would be politically convenient for members of Congress, who like to be on both sides of issues, so as to minimize the backlash from the voting public.