Ask Angela: Dear LDS Relief Society, I don't have kids, but I'd still like to be friends

I also have moved around a few times. Living in Utah or elsewhere makes no difference. For some reason it also doesn't matter where you go, there seems to be this attitude of those from Utah compared with those from anywhere else. Why is that?

For those without children, many of us try many different things we can think of to look beyond ourselves and to be useful to others. Those with young children who would like our help, it is you who needs to ask us. Sometimes we might try to help a family with young children only to have this family feel uncomfortable with us because sadly we live in society which makes people fearful of everybody. At the same time those of us without children have our own concerns and comfort level when it comes to other people's kids. We might then choose to help the widows in the ward, but then there are those who subtly express the attitude that they have raised their children and don't particularly care to be bothered tending to others. One might say get a job, go to school or volunteer somewhere. Chances are many are already doing these things. More than once where I have sought to find joy in serving others I have been basically told I need to get a life and have some fun. So, yes, where are those of us without children supposed to be of help to others?

This challenge is a result of not much diversity here in Utah...not just ethnic diversity, but other types as well.

When my husband and I lived on the east coast recently, we found that this wasn't as much a problem because there were people from everywhere in our ward. They were so excited to see each other it didn't matter much what race you were, your age, or your experience--whether you had children or were married or not. And these people were very busy. They worked 10-11 hour days in high profile jobs, or they were lower income people with several jobs, just surviving.

Any new situation takes some getting used to. Just keep at it. You don't have to change yourself to fit in. People will accept you. Amazingly, we had a similar experience in our own ward upon returning even though we've lived here for 18 years. Extend yourself to be friendly and others will respond. You don't have to set up social things--just be friendly.

Dear Detroit Lady,

You have it way too easy in your Relief Society. I am a 40+ something year old, returned to school, single adult, and I am trying to learn Spanish. At 30+ something, I returned to school to study what I wanted. To improve my Spanish speaking skills, I changed wards to a local ward that conducts church in Spanish for the Latin Americans Mormons that have come to the U.S. Talk about not fitting in! It is hard to connect because of language problems, that never seem to end; culture problems of differences between Mexican Americans and Americans; and I am a single adult without children. I don't fit in well, but,I have learned to give of myself, even if I am a busy student. If I see a sister freezing in church, I share my sweater. If I see a sister that hot, I share a fan. I also share my love of music and direct the R.S. choir. Yes, it is hard, but they give me hugs and a kiss on the cheek every week. I am sharing in their culture and our love of the gospel.

To "hamletfan8" but Jesus may say to Detroit Lady to "quit whining and get over it".

Think of the story of Mary and Martha. In Luke 10:38-40 we read " 40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath achosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her."

In other words he said, quit whining and enjoy the gospel.

Yes we should follow Christ's example, but where have we ever seen Christ fretting about fitting in with the popular crowd? When was Christ every concerned that the Apostles liked him? The fact is Christ was more concerned with his salvation and the salvation of man more than he was about himself. Can "Detroit Lady" get over herself and become more concerned with salvation than with having buddies at church?

RedShirt (and others)-

This is going to sound VERY cliche, but would Christ tell Detroit Lady to basically quit whining and get over it??? I think he would not. He would probably put his arm around her and try to understand what she is feeling. The scriptures tell us to "mourn with those that mourn" and I don't think many of the comments on here reflect that sentiment.

Many people seem to think that it is her fault if she feels different, it's her problem and they have no further obligation in this. But I think we have a responsibility (ALL of us) to follow Christ's example and reach out to the one. Not tell them to get over it.

Those who say look inward for the problem do not understand or are blind to what is really happening. I am not one who needs to have friends in my branch I just want to be accepted for who I am and that is something that I have never felt. It seems like in the Relief Society if you are not married between 18 and 23, have multiple children by 30 and are a stay at home mom there is something wrong with you. This is not an issue with the person who feels like they are an outcast, it is an issue with those who are excluding those who do not fit into the neat little box that all LDS women are suppose to fit into.

To "Detroit Lady" what are you expecting at church? Yes you want to bond with the other women, but face it, your life situation is different than theirs. For example, you and your husband could wake up on a Friday morning and decide to take the day off and go on a road trip. The women with the kids can't do that so easily. They have children and the needs of their kids to consider.

If you just want somebody nice to sit next to during RS, have you considered finding somebody else in need of a friend?

You sound like the girl wanting to sit at the luch table with cheerleaders. I hate to break it to you, but there are other groups and people that would welcome you. Find them, you don't need to join the "cool" mommie bunch. Maybe you would enjoy hanging with the widows, or volunteering for Primary or Nursery.

If you really want to have fun at church, tell your Bishop that you would love to teach Sunbeams.

My children are all grown and I'm in a ward which is mostly made up of married students with lots of children. I've found my own ward is very open to anyone in any situation. When they have play days at the park, they invite everyone, even those without children, to come join them. My visiting teachers are young, but I love having them visit. I never feel left out.When I was in a ward where I felt left out, many years ago, my visiting teacher taught me how to find my place in the ward. First, she decided that in an overly large ward, there must be others who felt left out. She asked me to help identify who they were and then she invited us all to her house to hang out. She grabbed a large table at activities and rounded up everyone who was alone. Eventually, the others noticed we were having more fun at our table than they were at theirs and they started including us. There was nothing wrong with us--we were just newcomers in a large and close ward.

I was single for a LONG time! I found a wonderful man to marry! WE DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN!!! And yet, I love Relief Society! I am constantly asked, "How many children do you have?" I answer, "None, that part of life hasn't work out for us yet." I HAVE FOUND THAT IT ALL HAS TO DO WITH HOW COMFORTABLE YOU ARE WITH YOURSELF AND YOUR UNIQUE SITUATION! We all have our own story to tell. I AM NOT A BABY HOLDER THOUGH...past that point in my life! We sometimes forget that there is more to this life than this life. I am counting on eternity to have some of MY promised blessings. In the meantime ask yourself, Would you want to get to know you? Nothing is ever gained by being negative. We are all in this together!

For all the people feeling bad about themselves or their situations, think about this, how many people have you mistreated, ignored brushed off, didn't talk to, overlooked, didn't help, didn't recognize, missed visiting teaching, rebelled against, talked bad about, or just plain didn't know they existed? I bet there are a few, maby a lot. So you are not unique. It all starts with you, so stop crying.

While I agree that this woman should do her part to reach out, I think it is a big cop out to just tell her she needs to reach out without acknowledging there is a bigger issue. I'm also married but don't have any kids. I am a very friendly and outgoing and consistently try to sit by new people. Everyone is always really nice but they almost stop listening once they find out I work full-time. But while everyone is really friendly and I have lots of acquaintances, I don't get invited to lots of things because most everything happens during the day and I work during the day. Many "official" Relief Society activities even are scheduled during the day which completely leaves me out. It makes it hard to feel included when you are being left out just because you aren't available during the day. There needs to be a big change in the culture that RS isn't just for stay at home moms.
I agree with many of the comments that I do not understand why we have to be defined by our family situation, whether kids, no kids, single. Whatever.

Seems like people like to whine a lot and blame religion and other people. You may need to examine your own self first.

Having been in different wards at different phases in my life, I am aware of this problem. The best group to deal with this is our Visiting Teachers. Even if its just a phone call, they can help us feel included. I will say that women with a child (children) have less time. They usually set up play groups for the children. The older single sisters, usually want a group their age to talk to, they have more in common. The younger single and married sisters should attend functions, (my goal each time is to meet someone I don't know) Ask if there is an investigator that you can befriend and help them. Volunteer to help during group activities. Our church presents a lot of opportunities for fellowshipping. But we have to do our part!

I think this in a bit of an American problem. I attended a Relief Society dinner here in Sweden where a couple of American sisters were present. There were about 25 of us there, and we each took turns telling the others a little about ourselves. The Swedish women all talked about their hobbies, their talents and things they had accomplished in their lives, while the Americans just told us how many children and grandchildren they had.

Maybe you could strike up a conversation with someone and ask about their interests and hobbies. That way, you focus on who you are as individuals - not on whether you have children - and can find someone with similar interests. As a young mother, so much of what you do centers around taking care of your children that your own hobbies and interests (and what defines you as an individual) ends up being put aside. When someone helps you bring that back into focus, she becomes a friend for life. This will make for a real and lasting friendship - not just a situational friendship, which ends when you're no longer in the same situation. Good luck!

Second attempt since I fail to see how pointing out that the LDS church touts the fact that it places a premium upon "child-centric" relationships is not relevant to a discussion about a childless LDS woman feeling less accepted. Again, this is the crux of her problem.

I believe that while our society has progressed technologically, we're falling behind socially. I can call 10 people in my neighborhood who all have voice-mail messages promising to call me back if I leave a message--but I'm lucky if 1 in 10 will actually do that. I also see a lot of what looks like paranoia in ecclesiastical settings, where if you're friendly or jovial with someone, many will wonder what you're up to or what you want. Many people obviously have a very hard time "relating" to or "identifying" with people who are dissimilar in various ways. I can understand that many people grow up being shy and uncomfortable in social settings, but they also aren't born with the ability to write or perform at arithmetic. The interpersonal facet of life is one where most people could stand to grow and improve significantly. Get away from the standardized program, the screen, and the monitor once in awhile and actually communicate with people.

I was never able to have children so I've either gone to church by myself or with my husband.
It's always been hard for me to see these wonderful families and not have one of my own but I've tried to get better acquainted with my neighbors who attend church and their children and that way if I run into them the kids always remember me. But never have I felt that I was not a part of the group...you are a part as much as you allow yourself to be. I've shed my share of tears in yearning to be a Mother but over time I've spent those times with friends children, playing with them, teaching them and doing crafts. Megan is a young Mother of 2 and we have become very close friends..I love her children as if they were my own and she is wonderful to share them with me. I believe any situation can be good, happy and fulfilling but it depends on what we allow it to be.

Has a PR program of the 1970s has become the doctrinal foundation with the effect of marginalizing those who don't fit the stereotype? Don't know how this will be resolved as long as the path remains the same.

Oftentimes young mothers with small children are very stressed and have very short attention spans themselves for obvious reasons. It's easy for them to gravitate to others in similar situations because they know they'll be understood for not being able to hold a conversation longer than 3 seconds without interruption. It isn't so much that they don't want to get to know you. Everyone, at one time or another, has felt like an "outsider" in church. Just be persistently friendly and you'll find that in between chasing children, you'll be able to have those conversations to see what more you have in common.

How big is your town. Some towns are friendlier than others that will look at ya in wonder when you say hi.

I personally love having friends without children because then I can get together with them more easily (i.e. come over for games after my kids are sleeping) or for conversations about anything besides kids (I mean, come on! We all had lives and interests before children too!) or for helping me at church with my kids, especially when my husband is working (medical profession). Sometimes people don't think about who may be feeling left out, but just as often they honestly might not think you would want to be their friend since they might perceive you as having different interests, but you can change that by being interested and finding common ground.

"If everyone (kind of a huge expectation) could focus and visualize his brother and sister as being Christlike some day, then the person standing in front of them has all the same qualities, which families now seem to have."

You are over thinking this. And it shouldn't even take thought.

People are people. What difference does it make what church they go to? Or if they are single, or divorced or have children or not?

I know my neighbors. They are good people. Some I know well, some not so well. I have no idea where or if they go to church. I don't treat my childless neighbors or divorced neighbors any different then anyone else.

Why would I? Why should I?

Do you really need guidance in how to treat others? What fosters that mindset?

This is just so foreign to me.

Every complainer on here seems to have overlooked comments like Pack's. The first comment on here was funny, I'm sure it wasn't a solution to everyone's problems. However, with the amount of diversity in the church in terms of relationships, culture, family, and other factors... friends can surely be found. Sometimes it's a ward change, sometimes it's a personal change. Prayer is a tool to be used here. No prayer goes unanswered when we put ourselves to work, having faith and patience. It's not a popular answer to those without one of those 3 traits, but it's still true.

@ NeilT

Many folks in church who have what they got would critisize you for complaining.
But here is a thought that is not often spoken of:

As time passes on, and soon everyone will see himself next life, there is a possibility that all may reach the final stage of being married and having children for eternity.
In fact becoming Christ like for the final reward, it would be impossible without the tempel sealings and children. But we read not of such in the Bible, as we would expect of Christ to fullfil the law. He was preaching most the time in terms of the individual one.

If everyone (kind of a huge expectation) could focus and visualize his brother and sister as being Christlike some day, then the person standing in front of them has all the same qualities, which families now seem to have.

It would make it natural to treat everyone as a father and a mother or child despite the circumstances now. Family is not the form you see, but the willingsness one has to follow Christ. To follow Christ means family now or some day. Very simple but need to connect the dots.

Simple answer: We look for those with whom we have superficial things in common, and we find them. However, after the kids grow up, or start becoming their own people, much of what we had in common disappears. Like one of the other commenters said, look for activities that you enjoy doing and find a group that enjoys that. Hiking? Biking? Reading? Quilting? Not all the activities we do must center around our children. Another suggestion is to approach individuals, not groups.

@Sasha, We did 10 years of infertility treatments and it would have been extremely painful for me to help you with your children in order to be your friend, when I couldn't have my own.

We have value in simply just being a person. The truth is...(in my opinion) we get too wrapped up in ourselves that sometimes we forget to connect to each other. Sometimes that connection only takes a couple minutes and all of us, no matter how busy, have a couple minutes to ask a couple questions and really try to get to know someone.

"you will make more friends in 2 minutes being interested in other people than you will make in two years by trying to make others interested in you."

I am a single sister serving in our Ward Relief Society in California. I just taught a lesson at the beginning of the month about "Not Fitting in." As we discussed the issue, there are so many reasons we might feel we don't fit in. In our discussion, the common thing to do was reach beyond ourselves. It may be hard when you feel you don't have things in common, but in the Gospel we all have things in common. Seek for those things you might have in common. Be the friend first to reach out and you will find friends.

I am LDS, divorced, no children of my own. I can relate to your situation. In Priesthood meeting we had a new member. The quorum president suggested everyone introduce themselves. Everyone had something to say about their spouse or children. When it was my turn I didn't know what to say. I felt embarrassed and humiliated in front of my priesthood peers. The LDS church places so much emphasis on marriage and family that single adults and childless couples are often shunned. It's as if the church doesn't know what to do with us. To add insult to injury the church decided to disband all singe adult wards for members over forty five. There are women who won't date me because I have never had children even though I have been a step-dad to a teenager and took his best friend into our home. Being single has been a trial for me. I often wish that church members would be more sensitive and more inclusive, not exclusive.

We live in a fast growing area -- at least two new families every month. Our wise R. S. president once asked everyone to stand up who had only lived in our Ward for 18 months or less. Two-thirds of the room stood up. The new people standing were almost surprised that there were that many and didn't know that many of the others were new as well. It opened their eyes! It made for many saying, "I didn't know" and immediately got them talking to the people in the chair next to them! It makes for a different dynamic when everyone knows what their "time in the Ward" element is.

Also, if you want someone to smile at you, be the first one to smile. The same is true with introducing yourself to people -- be the first one!!

From these comments, it appears that the only way to fit in is to make other people's children the center of your life if you don't have any of your own. Is that really the only way?

Having been on both sides of the issue (kids and no kids), if you don’t approach people you will likely never make friends no matter what your kid status. The fact is now that we have kids it’s hard to find time to spend with the few remaining friends we already have much less make new ones.

@ Blow

I kind of like your question, Why is that ?

I don't think I can find the right answer for every neighborhood in Utah, but I get your point.

For Mormons many things are so much easier to have in Utah. What I mean is, that being in Utah makes it so easy and available to everybody, that only the small Christians in that small chapel out in the lonely mountains work harder on being your neighbor, and they could be more nice because of that. Utahn are known to take things for granted.

But Mormons are not Mormons. Being a member of the church is nice and difficult at the same time. Because Mormons are unborn Christians sometimes, other times they step outside to look for others to make friends with.

Moroni 7 : ...Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth.

Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail.

But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

I think the suggestion to help with others children is a bit insensitive. My daughter can't have children because of illness that took away her ability. Helping with babies or small children is a painful reminder to her of what she has lost. She will always feel a little bit of an outsider in a family centered religion and yet she holds her head up high and continues to go anyway.

There is no exclusive club in Relief Society. I have moved around a lot and have felt left out and I love Relief Society. Here is what I found out after moving all over every 1-3 years and starting over: I am the happiest and feel most satisfied with my relationships at church when I am reaching out instead of waiting for an invitation from others.
The funny thing is, others might feel the same about you as you do about them. I know there are some ladies in my ward that don't have kids yet that I would love to be friends with but I assume they don't want to hang out with me and my kids. But if they ever came and hung out, I would love it! I know I need to just reach out better.
So, just put those feelings aside and reach out. Church won't be where you form deep relationships - there just isn't time there. You have to do it out of church. But no one is thinking they don't want to be your friend because you don't have kids. They may just be as intimidated as you are.

As with all perceived problems, the key is usually looking inward instead of outward. Forget yourself and be responsible for reaching out to others and you will be surprised how many friends you will make along the way.

“I’m a widow, so people seem to be uncomfortable talking to me,” or “I’m the only single one, so people seem uncomfortable talking to me” and “I’m a new convert, so people seem uncomfortable talking to me,” etc., etc.

Here is a question. What is it about Relief Society (or is it Mormonism) that makes you "uncomfortable" any of these "conditions" ?

What makes one so rigid in their thoughts or expectations that interacting with someone who doesn't "fit the mold" is difficult or uncomfortable?

Is it really that tough?

I am not LDS, but it is very difficult to understand how anyone, let alone extremely religious people, have such an issue merely "accepting" others who don't conform to their narrowly defined expectations.

I lived in Utah for 10 years and it was clear that I was an "outsider". I am not suggesting that most of my neighbors were not nice to me. But, generally, their interactions with me were awkward.

Why is that?

I was super happy when some neighbors without kids suggested we combine families to do Family Home Eavening together. It has been a huge help to my family!! Plus it helps for my kids to hear from other adults their view of gospel topics.

Look around and see if you can find someone with a similar hobby. Offer to be the organizer of a book group, cooking group, etc.

Speaking as a single mother of 2 elementary school kids (1 who is special needs) sometime I just sit in Sunday School and Relief Society and just enjoy the peace and quiet. Not that I mean to be exclusive or ignore anyone. However I can see how someone not knowing the particulars of my situation would mis-interpret my actions as being uninviting.

Sometimes I think people envision everyone but themselves having nonstop social gatherings. Most people don't get together with friends on a weekly or even monthly basis. It's not that some are excluded, it's that life is just busy. If you have a social need, reach out and plan something. Invite who you want to invite and they will probably be grateful you took the initiative. There are times I need to take this advice as well. I've found that some of the people I connect with the most are in a completely different age group and stage in life. That's what makes it all interesting and wonderful.

One must be a Nanny at Church to be accepted or make friends?

I'm really glad someone asked this question because I wanted to ask it! My husband and I have been married 2 years and have been in our ward since we got married. We tried really hard in the beginning to make friends in our new ward. However, we rent our home in an "old money" area and most people are established business people and are going on child 3+. We don't have any kids, I work and my husband is a student, and I feel super alienated in my ward because of it. I have voiced my concern in the past to various church officials, but even when I tried to reach out to others, it never went far. I tend to skip Relief Society now due to the lack of connectivity between myself and the other women -- I'd rather go to Sunday School and Sacrament where I can sit next to my husband. I work a bunch of Sundays too, so I can't exactly be consistent going anyways, so I understand what this reader is going through! Good luck!

I think that most women aren't deliberately excluding you. Scheduling mismatch could be a problem at times. Also, conversations constantly interrupted by children's needs. However, I think you could made a lot of headway by actively trying to make friends.

Here are some ideas:
-Pick a family with young kids and arrange to sit with them at church every week, to help out the parents.
-Invite a family over for dinner.
-Go to RS activities outside of sunday meetings. You can even go to ones planned for moms. For example, in my ward we go on fun outings with our playgroup but other people are welcome to come meet us at the park (or wherever) and hang out. We also take turns babysitting for sisters to attend the temple and are happy to have sisters without kids come, just to have a friend to go to the temple with.

Being invited to other churches of different believes, I often wonder how is it that some of them are so "touchy" in relating to everyone ?
I have seen people there of different problems being treated like they are the very best that Christ has given them. Why ?

In my search for answers, I have found that Mormonism is time troubled, stress related and priority related. That puts most families on a let us go "to church as quick as it can be" get out again. Some pleasure along will be treated with kindness, since we don't want to go without having any fun, so may be other mothers with kids can be positioned to be fun with.
Something they can relate to.Something to fill that 5 MIN space in church.

My suggestion to the question here :
Break away from standard attitudes people have, and be active in missionary work first, with missionaries, neigbors or friends just for being social to others, then learn to adopt new feelings and bring them back into the church. You will see, you will like it.

If you offer to help with the kids you will make friends very fast.