Utah lawmakers criticized for transgender comments on Twitter, later apologize

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    Feb. 5, 2014 9:53 a.m.

    It is insane that our society is so concerned with a small minority's rights that the majority's rights are trampled and the majority are called bigots.

    It's great for teenage boys who can now claim to "identify" as female so they can shower with the cheerleaders. If a female student filed a sexual harassment charge in such a case, would it even be heard?

    Unfortuantely, these issues are only being dealt with in a one-sided way. One side's morals are being forced onto the other side. Today, the LGBT morals are being shoved on everyone out of fear of lawsuits. Truly sad for our country.

    Thankfully, by kids are homeschooled, where they are not forced to comply with someone else's idea of morality.....

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Feb. 4, 2014 1:26 p.m.

    My wife and I will be carrying our birth certificates and a doctor's notarized statement of our gender from now on in case we have to use a public bathroom. Wouldn't want to end up in trouble with the "law in Utaw."

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 4, 2014 10:25 a.m.

    @ Evidence Not Junk Science:

    Here is where your logic fails. You seem to believe that a court of law can force people to ignore their conciences and nature. If courts create laws for special classes of people, those new laws may have unintended consequences. For example, if there are non-discrimination laws that result in complicated litigatiion for some alleged infraction in the work place, employers will avoid hiring members of that protected class in the first place to avoid later having to deal with the litigation.

    If the courts create new laws that force the schools and other places to allow a man who feels he is a female to be able to enter into the ladies bathroom or locker room, the ladies might feel inclined to not accept that person violating their privacy. Sadly, that could result in that person being bullied - which would truly be unfortunate.

    So if you find security in laws that force people to do things against their moral and intellectual conscience, it might have uninteded consequences that you hadn't considered.

    Lets find solutions that respect the concerns, needs and rights of both parties in this debate - that would work better for everyone.

  • concretebo Sandy, UT
    Feb. 4, 2014 8:19 a.m.

    Exactly, you hit the nail on the head .
    Is there not more urgent issues that need attention ?

  • Badgerbadger Murray, UT
    Feb. 4, 2014 8:07 a.m.

    Since chromosome irregularities, and physical abnormalities are present in many of these cases, it seems to me that a non-gendered bathroom for those with disabilities is the best solutions.

    Otherwise, if you look like a boy, use the boys' room, and if you look like a girl, use the girls' room.

    I can't believe that we have reached a state where we have to legislate this!

  • Business Teacher Orem, ut
    Feb. 4, 2014 7:05 a.m.

    >Evidence, not Junk Science: I am not referring to any transgender issue. I'm stating WHY the whole thing is disconcerting to so many. As for as citation go, this forum does not seem to allow for links, so, I'll just suggest you Google under "sexual assaults of children in public bathrooms". I think that the first hundred will keep you busy.

    Before there is change of any type, logical hypothetical situations must be scrutinized to avoid the obvious problems that will arise.

    I have no issue with ANYONE living out their own personal view of their life, as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of those who are too vulnerable to defend their own rights or becomes overboard in its zealousness. This can and will. Anyone who is truly looking to make things fair for all STARTS with those who have no say and are dependent upon us to protect them.

  • jcobabe Provo, UT
    Feb. 4, 2014 6:24 a.m.

    To inform the minds of the people, and to follow their will, is the chief duty of those placed at their head. (Thomas Jefferson)

  • Evidence Not Junk Science Iron, UT
    Feb. 4, 2014 12:00 a.m.

    @Charlemange ""How many high school boys do you think there are in California wondering how many days they have to wear a dress before they get to go into the girl's locker room?"

    Great news, not even one, hasn't been a problem in school districts across the nation for over ten years now.. Anymore hyperbole?

  • Charlemagne Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 3, 2014 10:55 p.m.

    This makes me think about Michael Medved's comment regarding a law in California that allowed students to use the facilities for the gender they chose:
    "How many high school boys do you think there are in California wondering how many days they have to wear a dress before they get to go into the girl's locker room?"

    Clearly that overwhelming number of students who are not gender confused have the right to use bathrooms and locker rooms without somebody of the opposite sex being there!

  • Evidence Not Junk Science Iron, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 10:35 p.m.

    @Jcobabe " The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one."

    3 hungry wolves and one delicious lamb simply do not have the right to vote on what they need for dinner, under our US constitutional guarantees of due process and equal protection for all americans preventing your tyranny of the majority.

  • jcobabe Provo, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 8:53 p.m.

    This is clearly not related to "ignorance". It is logical. The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one.

  • Evidence Not Junk Science Iron, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 8:45 p.m.

    @Business Teacher, "But if you do not see a problem here, you obviously have never sent a little boy into a men's bathroom alone for the first time, or a little girl into a ladies room alone for that matter. It's a scary time, as there ARE bad people out there, and they use restrooms to hide their actions."

    The please cite the scary times and problems that have occurred as a result of California's transgender protection law..
    Facts and evidence are better than animus, fear and irrational sky will fall arguments.

    "We have had no incidents of anybody pretending to be transgender,"

    As the district has for nearly a decade, Chiasson said that Los Angeles schools would determine students' eligibility for the law on a case-by-case basis, verifying that a student's gender identity has been "consistent" and "persistent." Conservative claims that the law would let students who aren't transgender sneak into opposite-sex restrooms and locker rooms won't pan out, because such claims bear no relationship to the reality of implementing transgender protections."- MM for America

  • Evidence Not Junk Science Iron, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 8:16 p.m.

    @JcoBabe "here is little need for everyone to compromise in what serves well for the overwhelming majority, to placate unreasonable demands of a few."

    Are you suggesting that a minority should continue to placate the ignorance of the majority? Is this a legitimate and rational basis for state law?

    Maine's state supreme court noted that the court found there was a violation of the Human Rights Act: by prohibiting the use of a female restroom though she identified as female, the school district discriminated because of her gender identity.

    Other cases around the country hint at further progress on the issue of transgender bathroom use. Two individuals in Iowa, both of whom were born as males and identify as females, won the right to use women’s public restrooms. In June, in Colorado, six year old Coy Mathis’ family won their case against the Fountain-Fort Carson School District that had barred Coy’s use of a female restroom. Now, the Maines case can be added to the list of successes in furthering the rights and acceptance of transgender individuals.

    The only way to resolve animus appears to be through a court of law. Let the legal action begin!!

  • Business Teacher Orem, ut
    Feb. 3, 2014 8:11 p.m.

    >Baccus0902 your scriptural referrence is way out of context. But if you want to use scripture, go ahead and explaine why there is not reference to Jesus' sexuality in scripture? is it because he's straight and married, gay or celibate? Well, what it for certain is, is PRIVATE, because it is considered sacred, and not up for everyone's discussion. Your talents, your good works, your service should not be hid under a bushel. Your private life, well, there is a clear example given here.

  • Benjamin Heward Orem, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 8:07 p.m.

    years ago at a business conventions, we found ourselves caught in the middle of a national transgender convention. The hotel had bathrooms set aside for naturally born females, for those who were uncomfortable with a man who had had surgery and hormone treatment coming into the bathroom with them (and attempting to fit into the female modes of checking on make-up and talking by the mirror for periods of time).

    About 20% of people will find themselves disabled at some point in their life. This is why we have wheelchair accessible bathrooms.

    Creating a floor to ceiling stall for a transgender (rather than a born hermaphrodite person) would single them out to ridicule. If they are obviously male (whether transgender or not), they should be in the male restroom. If they were born with a sexual organ defect, they should be able to go into the restroom they feel is correct to their gender.

  • Business Teacher Orem, ut
    Feb. 3, 2014 7:58 p.m.

    >No H8 - Celebrate: Asking a question certainly does imply that I do not have all the answers does it not? But if you do not see a problem here, you obviously have never sent a little boy into a men's bathroom alone for the first time, or a little girl into a ladies room alone for that matter. It's a scary time, as there ARE bad people out there, and they use restrooms to hide their actions. Do you really need me to cite examples to you? Why don't you just do a little google there yourself. I think you'll find plenty. Change can be good, but only if there is a better way. This way is pretty foggy at best. Though we adults can just pretend it isn't wierd or awkward, there is a point to feeling that way- people's sexuality isn't meant to be ignored, but kept sacred and private. There are a few folks who want change and want it now and they don't have logical plans in place to bridge that gap.

  • 3sons Ladson, SC
    Feb. 3, 2014 7:37 p.m.

    When I was teaching at the high school there were children that felt more comfortable using the bathroom in the nurse's office.

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 7:05 p.m.

    Very complicated concept here. Common sense and common decency along with simple anatomy speak to having separate bath and locker rooms for girls and separate ones for boys. Maybe that isn't politically correct to say?

    If all else fails, maybe we can fall back on what is "morally correct"?

    Now for those few individuals who have a "gender identity" issue, perhaps they can use the nurses restroom or another restroom designated for that particular accommodation?

    Hence we preserve respect for each gender and dignity for all those other kids who appreciate privacy and decency when they use the restroom. Pretty simple.

  • jcobabe Provo, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 6:48 p.m.

    My impression is that this is a case where the exception proves the rule. There is little need for everyone to compromise in what serves well for the overwhelming majority, to placate unreasonable demands of a few. Mandates that impose the lowest common denominator on everyone only serve to force everyone to act as equally handicapped.

  • Baccus0902 Leesburg, VA
    Feb. 3, 2014 6:08 p.m.

    @ Tators
    You wrote:
    "For thousands of years, this hasn't been an issue for civilization. And now it suddenly is? Wow!"

    Perhaps it wasn't much of a civilization after all.

    We live at the best time in human history. For the first time we dare to question and pay attentions to matters that we used to discard or ignore because it made us uncomfortable.

    Jesus talk about this in Luke 8:16,17
    "No one lights a lamp and hides it in a clay jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, they put it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light. 17 For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open."

  • klimber510 Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 6:02 p.m.

    SB100 states:

    517 (b) It is a discriminatory and prohibited employment practice to deny an employee
    518 access to restrooms, shower facilities, or dressing facilities that are consistent with the
    519 employee's gender identity

    According to SB100 what is gender identity?

    83 (k) "Gender identity" means an individual's internal sense of gender, without regard to
    84 the individual's designated sex at birth. Evidence of gender identity may include an
    85 individual's self-identification, as well as the individual's gender-related appearance,
    86 mannerisms, and other gender-related characteristics.

    What does this mean? It means that if I am a biological male who identifies as female, an employer must allow me to use the ladies' restroom, dressing area, and showers.

    Where? Certainly any facility that receives public funds, such as the county recreational facility where you go swimming. Also, any incorporated business such as the gym where you go exercise or where you work.

    I strongly object to this provision in SB100. I believe it is an outrageous encroachment on women's privacy and right to feel safe at their place of employment or a public facility.

    One question: Do these provisions extend to patrons of these establishments or just for emplyees?

  • Archie1954 Vancouver, BC
    Feb. 3, 2014 5:59 p.m.

    Just build unisex washrooms from now on. Such washroom facilities are completely private so that either gender can use them in complete confidence of their personal privacy.

  • No H8 - Celebrate Salt Lake, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 6:00 p.m.

    @Tators, what if the body parts don't match the birth certificate? What if the genetic testing shows something different than the body parts? How do you get the birth certificate changed? Answer You can't. Do you have any other ideas?

  • CDL Los Angeles, CA
    Feb. 3, 2014 5:59 p.m.

    This is about children. You don't disrespect the majority of children and their feelings and discomfort because of a few. Those few can deal with it a bit longer until they get out of school. Then they can go knock themselves out and do their thing. This is about common sense. What they were born genetically should decide which bathrooms and, locker rooms and showers are used.

  • No H8 - Celebrate Salt Lake, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 5:45 p.m.

    @Tators, so body parts make the determination? What if you have both? What percentage is required of each to make a determination that would make you comfortable?

    @Business Teacher, what specifically determines opposite sex, from a biological, physiological, genetic, endocrinology and psychological perspective. How is one "supposed" to make that determination? You seem to have this all figured out. As you can see, genetic, and body parts are not enough.

    Please provide specifics, not speculation.

    What has been the experience of school districts in California and other states that have addressed this issue for years? How many dangerous characters out there are misrepresenting themselves in school bathrooms? Evidence please, not irrational fear.

  • sanpaco Sandy, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 5:32 p.m.

    What a waste of time and tax payer money.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 5:18 p.m.

    @ No H8 - Celebrate:

    Very few answers in life are totally absolute. Just pick a method and go with it. If a person's birth certificate says he's a boy and he has boy body parts, use the boy's restroom.

    If born with girl body parts and that person's birth certificate says she's a girl, have her use the girl's restroom.

    For the love of common sense, why are some people trying to make such a simple issue of restroom use so complicated? Regardless of what a particular study might allude to or insinuate, the number of people actually mixed up about whether they are male or female is truly miniscule.

    There are much bigger issues in life that need much more attention than what some people are trying to give to this one. Let's move on.

  • Furry1993 Ogden, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 5:09 p.m.

    @wrz 3:57 p.m. Feb. 3, 2014

    The answer is not too complicated. Just have full doors and ceiling to floor walls on stalls. And keep the 'restroom' apart from the sinks and mirrors.


    My thought exactly. Problem solved.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 5:00 p.m.

    @ equal protection and Kalindra:

    I don't see where this legislation is about passing moral judgement on anyone. It's a physical, not moral issue. There are physical, sexual differences between guys and girls that have always been distinguished and accepted.

    In the interest of political correctness, we are making this issue a lot more complicated than it should be. It seems lately that even the tiniest segments of society want special treatment and are blurring the lines of distinction.

    Do you think we should perhaps have a separate "inter-sex" bathroom for those who are not really sure that their body parts can tell them who or what they are?

    Since almost all restrooms have stalls with locking doors, it shouldn't be a big issue for anyone born a girl to use the girl's room and for those born a boy to use the boy's room. Though there are exceptions to everything, the vast majority of people just want to appease the calls of nature when using a restroom and nothing more. A simple concept.

    For thousands of years, this hasn't been an issue for civilization. And now it suddenly is? Wow!

  • Business Teacher Orem, ut
    Feb. 3, 2014 4:49 p.m.

    Ok, here's my question: Why did we separate bathrooms in the first place? Wasn't it to avoid the awkwardness of private bathroom situations to the opposite sex if not protect our children from being alone around potentially dangerous adult characters? If I'm wrong about that, please let me know.

    And if I'm not has that changed any since our first public bathrooms? I'm sorry, I don't want to do my business around folks of the opposite sex, or those who feel they are. Let's be honest, I know it's not all about sexual attraction. But can't we have any social expectations of private behavior anymore for fear of offending those who have changed or are deciding their sexual orientation? And if I've upset you, I'm sorry. It's an honest question.

  • cstott Lehi, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 4:41 p.m.

    Boys go to the boys room, girls to the girls room. Is this really that difficult? I don't want an adult gay male stepping out of a stall while my 10 year old daughter is waiting.

  • jsteve Herriman, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 4:39 p.m.

    @equal protection
    Are you and Ketchum referring to Anne Fausto-Sterling's paper, The Five Sexes? This paper was a thought exercise and had nothing scientific about it; no experiment was performed.
    While I do agree with the idea that sensitivity is absolutely necessary, to whom should we be sensitive, the individual or the masses? With the instance in Maine- her friends were okay with it, but is that indicative of how it would always be, or might some be offended? Another question- who determines this?
    Imagine a teenage boy decides he wants to go to the girl's locker room. He pretends he feels like a girl so that he can do so and gains access. This can lead to all sorts of problems. Ample documentation would need to be provided, then, and who is to say what would qualify one to use the other bathrooms? This issue is much more complex than the feelings of one person, as everyone around them has feelings and motivations as well.

  • desert Potsdam, 00
    Feb. 3, 2014 4:28 p.m.

    As far as I know, Muslims and Mormons treat their offspring with disabilities in a very kind and respectful manner.
    In Utah we have much done for special care and treatment for those who have less intelligence or physical shortcomings. This is well known to the church and its welfare program.

    The evil done with a new agenda on gender choice or inborn trades, is not to treat them with kindness, but to put them on public display to serve any political purpose.
    If there are children with such abnormalities, they are in need to be treated as much as normal, but kept in distance to publicity and emotional confrontation.

    Many comments on this subject deny them such privacy to live a normal life.
    They stirr up the heat, instead such children have rights to live a quiet life.

  • No H8 - Celebrate Salt Lake, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 4:22 p.m.

    @SAMom "I agree with Rep. Kennedy. Keep it simple. If you were born a boy, use the boy's bathroom. If you were born a girl, use the girl's bathroom."

    And how specifically is that determination made? Please read some of the comments above before you answer. DNA won't work, body parts won't work, biology won't work. A patriarchal blessing appears to be the best way and should be legislated by law in order to attend public school.

  • county mom Monroe, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 4:13 p.m.

    As long as there are stalls for every bathroom, who cares which restroom you use?
    Eliminate urinals in every single restroom and the problem is solved.

    This also has the positive effect of making men have to wait in line just as long as women, to use the restroom.

  • mcclark Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 4:03 p.m.

    @ 1951 That dang Constitution, every time you want to trample on some folks rights, there it is, saying you can't do that.

  • wrz Phoenix, AZ
    Feb. 3, 2014 3:57 p.m.

    The answer is not too complicated. Just have full doors and ceiling to floor walls on stalls. And keep the 'restroom' apart from the sinks and mirrors.

  • Liddle Bruda Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 3:54 p.m.

    No, we won't look at LGBT legislation at all... except the ones that will restrict transgender rights...

  • Liberty For All Cedar, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 3:41 p.m.

    The proposed law's practical effect of punishment and shame is the best solution to this problem. Look at the horrific outcome of the effect of this law in California and other states that have addressed this issue in their school districts for years. The evidence is clear and convincing.

  • equal protection Cedar, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 3:35 p.m.

    Laws a plenty, who are we helping, who are we protecting?

    "Science provides further evidence of these complex distinctions and interrelations. Brown University biologist Anne Fausto-Sterling studies the biological variation of sex characteristics among humans. Her research estimates that 4 percent of babies born are “intersex,” meaning they are born with some mixture of male and female characteristics that prevent them from being neatly sorted into binary categories of biologically female or biologically male. More children are born intersex, than are born with red hair (1 percent to 2 percent). If we apply these findings to Orange County, California, it translates into more than 20,000 students who were born intersex now attending local schools.

    An individual's biological sex is different from one's “gender identity,” or the way in which an individual understands and experiences masculinity and femininity. And, though related to gender identity, it is also important to recognize that an individual's “gender expression” – the gender one enacts and performs in one's public life – can also be distinct, and even sometimes in opposition to, one's internal gender identity."- Dr. K. Ketchum.

  • SAMom Ladson, SC
    Feb. 3, 2014 3:30 p.m.

    I agree with Rep. Kennedy. Keep it simple. If you were born a boy, use the boy's bathroom. If you were born a girl, use the girl's bathroom. How many times do you have to use the bathroom in one school day?

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 3, 2014 3:20 p.m.

    The girl in Maine had doctor certification of her gender. She used the girl's restroom for 5+ years until a _boy_ complained about it.

    Balpreet Kaur is a Sikh woman with a beard.

    Most transgender individuals present as the gender they identify with - meaning trans mtf will not be a man with a beard wearing a dress.

    The average person would not know someone was transgender unless that person told them.

    What are you going to do? Have DNA testers outside all school restrooms?

  • equal protection Cedar, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 3:16 p.m.

    @desert "... We need laws plenty."

    How do we pass moral judgement on gender identity and people born inter-sex? DNA won't work, "proper" body parts biology, physiology and endocrinology won't work either. Do we look to our religious organizations to make the determination? Can our legislators figure this all out and assign the proper gender to someone in our laws without considering all of the factors that make up gender?

    It turns out that DNA is not much help either in properly passing moral judgement on the gender of others. There is more to maleness and femaleness than X or Y chromosomes. About 1 in 20,000 men has no Y chromosome, instead having 2 Xs. This means that in the United States there are about 7,500 men without a Y chromosome. The equivalent situation - females who have XY instead of XX chromosomes - can occur for a variety of reasons and overall is similar in frequency.

  • A Quaker Brooklyn, NY
    Feb. 3, 2014 3:12 p.m.

    @desert: So, society is going down the drain because people are trying to do something about vulnerable children being ostracized or assaulted in school restrooms?

    It's the job of schools to educate and protect every child entrusted to their guardianship. We have laws that require children to attend school. The least we could have are laws to keep them safe while they're there.

    Gender Identity Disorder is not a joke, although plenty of people here seem to want to make it into one, or worse. If a child is honestly living the life of a girl, or of a boy, with the support of family, friends and physicians, it's dangerous to single them out and force them into the opposite restroom. Take a look at the young woman in Maine who won her court case. You tell me honestly if she looks like she belongs in the boys' restroom. (Hint: NO.) Her girlfriends CHEERED when they heard she won the right to be treated the same as the other girls.

    Sometimes kids have more basic sense than adults.

  • tra1951 Ferron, UT
    Feb. 3, 2014 2:47 p.m.

    Why bother with our liberal judges. It is a waste of time for something they will rule unconstitutional.

  • desert Potsdam, 00
    Feb. 3, 2014 2:32 p.m.

    "We welcome your thoughtful comments"

    Well, how am I to put this down to be thoughtful ?

    First there used to be a bathroom for handicaps, since they do need more space and time, not one around to harass them. That same restroom would be asinged to any in doubt (med.)
    as well.That is as far as you could call it today.

    From now on ?
    Define me gender in doubt, would a patriarchal blessing make sure ? Are there political motivations behind those wishing to be as they could select gender ? But who would trust a patriachial blessing in a public school ?

    I think it used to be ok for special people to have special restrooms.
    But now there is a political movement on the horizon that claims insults around any possible corner; good to put some preventive rulings into place.

    I hope WW III is not to start on this one.
    Whom to trust in our days ?

    My thoughtful comment is in this direction, if people are kind and can be trusted we need less law, when our society goes down the drain, we need laws plenty.
    Bad times.