DLF did it ever occur to you if the U.S. government had not been ignoring
Apartheid for decades that maybe the Resistance wouldn't of felt it was
necessary to join with Communists to overthrow a extraordinarily discriminatory
government. Did Mandela enter prison with Communistic idea's.
Absolutely.However for 27 years doing hard labor, and sleeping on a
blanket on the cold hard floor he watched, he pondered, he forgave, he grew and
came out a man who wanted democracy and freedom for all those in South Africa.
If he was so "communistic" then do you really think he would
of chosen to only be president for 4 years, and then turn it over to another?
He went into prison in the 60's, and during that time he saw the falicies
with Communism. The frank abuse and fraud it leads to. WE all in our youth
often have idea's that don't exactly jive with reality. What one
would hope is we learn from them and grow. And if we are going to
freak out at the word communism, then why did we let that commie Gorbachev
attend Regan's funeral? Could it be, he learned and grew too.
@wrz:"... using discrimination as their ace in the hole."Works every time. Now, thanks to the Dutch Afrikaans who colonized S. Africa,
the Native Africans don't run around in loin clothes carrying spears. Good
for them.It worked in America as well. The African slaves who first
came to America had it fairly rough. But look now. Many are millionaires.
@one old man:"ANC was listed by the State Department as a
'terrorist group.' But who was our president at the time? Were U.S.
policies at that time pro-apartheid or pro-freedom?"There
ain't nothing wrong with Apartheid. The Dutch wanted to keep themselves
separated (apart. i.e., apartheid) from the African natives. They build
S.Africa up and they were bound and determined to keep it. Can you blame them?
Of course Mandela and his group wanted to take the place over, as they
eventually did... using discrimination as their ace in the hole.
The more or less 'official' Right Wing position in the U.S. was to
support apartheid, similar to conservatives' support for racial segregation
here. So, of course, groups like the John Birch Society put black quislings who
supported apartheid on their speakers' tours. The man cited, Tamsanqa
Linda, was a such a person. Within South Africa, white conservatives also used
such people to try to maintain the status quo. Once the die was cast, Nelson
Mandela free and electable, those efforts faded away. You will not see anything
about Linda beyond his use as a propaganda tool in the early 1990s. And, let us be clear the person being cited, Mercer, claims blacks are
inherently inferior. His work, "Into the Cannibal's Pot: Lessons for
America from Post-Apartheid South Africa," is the silliest kind of racist
nonsense. One reason people admire Mandela so much is he was his
own person. He spent more than a third of his life in jail or prison rather
than accept the status quo or anything less than full equality for people of
color. His character and actions are what make him great.
As with just about all things, we believe what we choose to believe. What was
convincing years ago may still guide our beliefs, even though it was likely
opinion.Our society has become more and more polarized, as have our
politicians and press and media. The liberal media and conservative media have
their followers, who have their minds made up before even hearing the
discussion. But wisdom guides us to carefully consider all points of view
before making a choice.Nelson Mandella lived in a racially charged
and dangerous time in South Africa. He emboldened his countrymen to rise up
against hate, prejuduce and societal suppression of rights. Much like American
civil rights leaders, Mandella was hated by the powers that be. He was
maligned. He was stuffed into prison. And now even in death there are words of
hate.But that is the way men are. They establish hate in their
hearts and it never goes away.
At least he served time in jail for bombing that railway station. I believe his
change while in prison was real. This is why I respect him unlike Obama.
Terrorism and killing innocent civilians is never the answer to ending tyranny.
I'm glad that he realized this and changed. Peace is how we are going to
drive the tyrant Obama out of office just like peace ended apartheid.
It's consoling to read the comments of DN readers who are not drowning in
the Mandela flood of adulation. I posted my comment on this article because I
had received first-hand testimony from the heart of a black South African leader
who feared communism more than apartheid. I did not expect to win a popularity
contest by posting this politically incorrect viewpoint. Those who demand
documentation must know that I cannot paste documents in this format. My critics
can, however, if sincere, go to Google and enter: "accuracy in media mandela
linda." Moreover, the Department of State's classification of Mandela
as a terrorist is also available on line. And anyone with the stomach to view
Winnie Mandela's (Nelson's wife's) necklacing atrocities can
Google that too. Mark Twain was right when he said, "It's easier
to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."The politics and history of apartheid are far more complex that can be
discussed in this forum. Had I been living on the wrong side of apartheid, how
would I have responded? How would you have responded? It is hard to know, as
fortunately, none of us (well, none that I personally know) lived under the rule
of the white minority in South Africa. He was far from a perfect
man, but I believe he was a great man and here's how I make that
determination. While a young, angry, idealistic man, he made mistakes,
including violent crimes against others. He was tried and imprisoned. While
imprisoned, he changed and decided to eschew violence and upon his release, did
not take revenge. He, instead, used non-violence to help bring to pass the end
of a great evil (yes, apartheid was EVIL). He was a complex and flawed man, yet
ultimately used his charisma and natural leadership skills to lead his country
out of apartheid. A great man can rise above his flaws and sins to be a force
for good in this world.
re:DLFof note:Mayor Linda was sponsored by the American Opinion
Speakers Bureau of The John Birch Society when he visited the U.S. in 1990. Yes, the history of Mandela, (like most history) is more complex and
"messy" than presented in the media. The anti-apartheid
movement was viewed with suspicion and caution by some because of the communist
elements, one of the factors in Reagan's reluctance to sign onto sanctions.
Very early, Mandela embraced the ways of Gandhi--peaceful
resistance as a means to change, until the 1960 massacre of unarmed black South
Africans. After that he began advocating acts of sabotage against the South
African regime. It is true too that violence was carried out by the ANC. While
Mandela may have been aware of it, he did not advocate violent acts against
people. Mandela was a flawed man--and the first to admit it. I
think what made him a great man is his ability to learn from his mistakes and do
things better to change an entire country.
@ one old man:You seem to be trying hard to associate conservative
politics in our country as being pro-apartheid. When it comes to Ronald
Reagan’s South African political decisions, there was a lot more involved
than initially meets the eye. International politics can often be very
complicated. Unless you were personally involved or have extensively studied the
situation in intricate detail, it's probably best not to judge. You've
given no indication of being particularly knowledgeable concerning the specific
details of that situation. However, you do seem to be quite anxious to jump to
conclusions in an effort to promote your personal political ideology.BTW: With some study of civil war era politics, it's interesting to find
out it was the liberals of that time who were the most resistant to ending
slavery. It was the conservatives (led by Lincoln) who kept pushing the agenda
to put an end to that terrible practice. We're all certainly glad they
He was far from perfect but he inspired millions, brought freedom to millions,
and forgave his enemies. That's a lot for one lifetime. He deserves to be
remembered and his place in history alongside Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.
@DLF, your minority view is spot on for anyone willing to learn from history
rather than trying to rewrite it. The NYT's obituary of Mandela's
closest friend and fellow militant communist 'freedom fighter' Joe
Slovo says it all.
It's quite interesting how “one old man” has in essence
admitted to not having all the pertinent facts regarding Mandela, yet adamantly
criticizes anyone who dares to question Mandela's intentions and history.
Seems a bit hypocritical to judge someone else for he himself judging. DLF may
or may not have some very valid points.It's also interesting
how society has a strong tendency to eulogize any recently departed person as
being so great and wonderful while also tending to dismiss anything negative
about that person. An understandable tendency, but nevertheless not always so
accurate.Most of us don't know enough detail of Mandela to
assess his overall life story very accurately. Being the day after his death,
it's probably the proper thing to do in giving him the benefit of the
doubt... at least for now. Though he undoubtedly did a lot of good
things, I certainly don't believe he was the ideal saint some people are
making him out to be. History and time will ultimately judge him (and all of us)
more accurately than right after a person's passing.
We saw "him" in Martin Luther King. We see "him" in the
new Catholic Pope.We see "him" close to home in our own President
Obama.(That is a real stretch, other than the communism ties and the color of
their skin?)You forgot to mention a philandering Bill Clinton?
Just ask Winny and Hilary!
So many posters who have so much difficulty accepting what the world knows to be
true. This was a great man. Your children know it and history has cemented it,
while at the same time, our young people look to people like Nelson Mandela as
heroic and someone who stood for something---they look at you as sad and
backwards. They want to be more like Mandela and less like you. A tough pill to
swallow and yet you must. Or be content to decay into insignificance.
So the talking point is "Great Man". Reminds of the "gravitas"
talking point executed at the announcement of Dick Cheney as Bush's VP. Question: What defines "great"? What made Mandela
"great"? Ending apartheid? There were a lot of people and different
factions involved in that, not just Mandela. Do they get credit for their own
"greatness" as well? Where's the praise?What about
Mandela's past? Does the whole life constitute "greatness", or was
it a couple of acts alone? From the comments posted, it seems to me that some
people have either forgotten or ignored history.Jesus was great and
we can explain why. Same for George Washington, John Adams, Abraham Lincoln,
Pope Francis, etc. All of these men have sought to lift people up. But the fact
is that none of these men spent portions of their lives killing innocent
people.So going back to the "great man" talking point, it
would be helpful for some of you who are marching lock-step with the mantra to
explain how you define Mandela's "greatness".
Sanitize then lionize. Ho Chi Minh, Fidel Castro, Joseph Stalin and Che Guevara
are now freedom fighters of oppressive governments. From militant communist
imprisoned for 27 years only to emerge as a forgiving saint is a Hollywood
publicist's dream awaiting a movie deal...oh, wait...
ANC was listed by the State Department as a "terrorist group." But who
was our president at the time? Were U.S. policies at that time pro-apartheid or
The actual reason that Mr. Mandela was in prison was for plotting to blow up
hospitals. He had already been linked to the blowing up of railroads and power
stations. His motivation may have been to dismantle Aparteid. However, he even
stated that he deserved to be in prison for 27 years for attempting to kill
innocent individuals. MLK believed in a non violent approach to political
change. There is that deep chasm in the difference in philosophies. There is
also a deep difference in the number of minorities involved in the goals of
each. MLK forced a nation to change while espousing about 12% of the population.
For Mandela, it was something like 90%. Strangely for Mandela, he rejected equal
rights for the Zulus.
one old man. You will be more effective in civil discourse if you avoid ad
hominem statements.I also saw Tamsanqa Linda's presentation. He
painted a very different picture of Mandela than what you'll see on TV this
weekend. Now, Tamsanqa may have been lying, I don't know. I took it as
another data point. However, his perspective was that Mandela led a brutal
organization responsible for the murders of many people.There are
plenty of facts about Mandela's life that will not be presented right now.
To be aware of them does not make you a "right wing hate group" member.
Right now, the emperor is wearing new clothes. In 20 years, we'll be able
to have a more rational discussion. In the mean time, read "Into the
Cannibal's Pot: Lessons for America from Post-Apartheid South Africa"
by Mercer. You can also independently verify the fact that the ANC was
"terrorist group". And please, don't respond that Mercer is
"insert-label-here" therefore all the facts she presents should be
I believe that Nelson Mandela grasped onto Communism as a vehicle for change. I
don't believe he governed that way when he was president. I believe he
governed as a democratic leader. Sometimes, in desperation,
revolutionaries adopt extreme institutions only as a way to stop injustices.
Frankly, Ho Chi Min did the same thing. He appealed to President Truman for
help in throwing off the French in Vietnam. Truman would not help because France
was our ally. So Ho used communism as a vehicle to create revolution against
the French. That turned out really bad, but it seems South Africa has turned
out better. I hope so.I don't like the communist history of
Mandela either, but I think there is a rational explanation for it. I believe
he did establish a democratic framework in South Africa.
DLF - from which ultra-extremist hate website did you draw that supposed
"information?"Let's see some solid documentation,
Nelson Mandela was the epitome of honor, courage, sacrifice. He led his people
out of bondage, a modern-day Moses. He faced hatred and brought it down for all
blacks in his country. His legacy spread across Africa and around the world.He, like Martin Luther King, was inspired by our Heavenly Father to
extinguish racial hatred and extend freedom to the oppressed. Those two are no
doubt cheering on continued racial and economic justice for all of God's
children. They are great role models for all of us.
@ DLF, you judge from afar. It turns out that history proved Nelson Mandela and
the ANC to the correct in the face of aparthied. Do you think for one minute
that the oppressive South African regime would allow a black man who was not
vetted and speaking the government line to do what Mr. Linda did? You know
little about what was going on during that time.I have to wonder if
all these Utahns lauding the great Mandela would have said their words back when
Reagan supported appartied and vetoed legislation to help end it. Again,
history was on the side of Mandela and against the conservative position.Nelson Mandela is one of the greatest men in the 20th and 21st
@DLFI'm sure Mandela wasn't perfect but to imply he was
personally ordering the murder of anyone cannot be proven. If you look at his
statements and actions coming out of prison and into the presidency, this is a
remarkable man. There never was a communist takeover with his presidency, was
there? Ho Chi Minh was an ally of the US in WWII and tried for years to get us
to get the French out of Indochina. In the end he went to the communists for
help. That we drove those suffering under Apartheid to our enemies is tragic.As for Mandela, he paid for whatever militancy he had with 27 years of
prison. When he left prison, he says he also left behind his hatred (or he would
have stayed effectively in prison or something to that effect). To ignore his
actions of forgiveness and the grace in which he transitioned into power, would
be a monumental failure on our part. What does your friend Mr. Linda
say about Mandela now? That would be interesting to know...
One can see the wonderful things Nelson Mandela emulated throughout the
world.With a non-violent agenda, Mr. Mandela taught others how to
"fight" for what is right. He has been an example to the world.We
saw "him" in Martin Luther King. We see "him" in the new
Catholic Pope.We see "him" close to home in our own President
This is one of the most amazing news articles I have ever read. It is one thing
to love and forgive an errant sinner, but quite another to bestow sainthood on a
conscious agent of the Soviet-backed African National Congress (ANC), cited by
the U.S. State Department as a terrorist group. In 1990 it was my
privilege to bring Tamsanqa Linda to the United States. He was the black mayor
of Ibhayi Township (population 400,000) and president of the Eastern Province
Council Association (representing 14 townships of nearly 14 million). Mayor
Linda came to the U.S. to warn of Mandela's hypocrisy despite serious
dangers to himself and his family. The threats came from the Mandela-led ANC to
silence Mayor Linda whose people were being murdered by the ANC for refusal to
back the communist-led overthrow of South Africa.The concerted exoneration
of Mandela is simply amazing.