BYU basketball: Cougars fall to No. 12 Wichita State, 75-62

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  • flatlander Omaha, NE
    Nov. 27, 2013 4:53 p.m.

    Does anyone else sense that when BYU gets an early lead they tend to get a big head and start playing selfish. When the game is close early they stay more focused on team ball throughout the game. I replayed the tape and Carlino gets hot early but second half shots were a little farther out, fewer passes etc. down the stretch WS had a minimum of four passes per offense and BYU had one. With only five assists how do they expect to win against better teams. I give BYU credit for playing these teams but start playing more like them.

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 4:01 p.m.


    "So tell us all what you think about this:..."

    too easy

    6th-ranked Duke has already played 2nd-ranked Kansas.

    The "best" team Utah has played is 311th-ranked UC Davis.

    btw, the rankings are already beginning to mean something and Utah's pre-season cupcake walk will come back to haunt them when Selection Sunday comes around in a few months.

  • Hugh G. Hater Swat Lake City, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 1:55 p.m.


    Took the words right out of my mouth. Wasted opportunities.

    BTW, some of you need to learn paragraphs.

  • AZBlue Gilbert, AZ
    Nov. 27, 2013 1:48 p.m.

    What's with ripping Carlino? Bone headed plays? Yep. Selfish play at times? Yep. But name one player who doesn't make bone headed plays or go one-on-one in every game. Even top NBA players do lots of stupid things in every game.

    BYU players (especially Haws) need to learn that when you feel contact or try to draw contact, you still have to shoot the ball, not just throw it at the basket assuming you are going to get a foul so that shot doesn't matter. And better yet, several BYU players, especially Haws and Carlino need to remember that their best performances come when they move the ball around during each possession. Too many times Haws and Carlino telegraph to the world that they are bound and determined to go 1 on 1 on this trip down the court no matter who is in front of them. Makes it so much easier for the defense to defend only one guy instead of 5.

  • AZBlue Gilbert, AZ
    Nov. 27, 2013 1:42 p.m.

    Anyone care to explain why Rose got a "T" when only a few minutes earlier, the WSU coach was almost literally apoplectic screaming at the refs and even gesturing to the ref in a "you get over here now". No T there? But Rose gets one for maybe less than what the WSU coach had just done? And the WSU coach was shown repeatedly screaming about calls he did not like.

  • AZBlue Gilbert, AZ
    Nov. 27, 2013 1:39 p.m.

    Regarding Nate Austin's ejection:

    I and confused how anyone who understands basketball can see what Nate did and declare he was playing dirty or that it was a cheap shot. Basic big man block-out move: square out your arms to keep the guy behind you from moving through you for the rebound. Watch any game you want, it is a very standard move when blocking out for a rebound. The problem? Nate is 6'11" and Baker is 6'3"; means that Austin's elbow was at face level rather than the usual chest level of the taller rebounders. Foul? Definitely! A flagrant? Probably. But a flagrant 2 by definition means that the offender was going after the person contacted and not making any play for the ball. (Blocking out IS a play for the ball.) There is no way that was true. The Iowa State player was clearly not even looking at the ball, not trying to block out or anything else; he went straight to the face of Mikka. HUGE difference.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 1:00 p.m.

    @ ekute, Spokane Ute, and Xert:

    As Ute fans, you guys had some very good comments today and obviously weren't trying to push anyone's buttons... like another particular infamous Ute fan always does.
    I believe most BYU fans appreciate that kind of objectiveness and hope some of the ultra-BYU fans will take note and respond similarly on Utah articles.

    @ Christopher B:

    There are very good reasons DN moderators often reject your comments. If you could look at the entire situation through a clear lense, you would realize most of your comments don't add to the dialog, but instead are usually meant to push the buttons of BYU fans... which is mostly what happens. Why all the silly LOL's?
    I admit that many of your comments have often raised my ire with their lack of objectiveness.

    I'm a BYU fan, but am not afraid to show support for Utah whenever they aren't playing BYU or USU.

    It's extremely rare for you to compliment BYU on anything... no matter how well they perform. It shouldn't be difficult to give credit where credit is due, regardless of what team earns it? You should try it.

  • Coog Fan in Spokane Spokane, WA
    Nov. 27, 2013 12:55 p.m.

    What does it say about a team when it habitually gives up big leads? This goes back at least to last season - build a big 1st half lead, watch it dwindle down before halftime, then either hang on to win in the second half or leave it to chance and lose. We do this against great teams, good teams, mediocre teams, and even at times bad teams. Is it our bench? Do we not respond well when opponents make adjustments? This season alone we've had big 1st half leads against Weber, Stanford, Iowa State, Texas, and Witchita State - and ended up surrendering most if not all of those leads. Does this team not have the mental toughness to protect a big lead?

    Another observation: a couple years ago, BYU's team shooting became much more erratic from one season to the next, and the only major change was Dave Rice leaving to take the UNLV job. I don't recall seeing BYU go 10 for 12 from 3 pt range one night, only to go 3 for whatever the next, when Rice was on the coaching staff. Anyone else notice this? Food for thought...

  • idablu Idaho Falls, ID
    Nov. 27, 2013 12:49 p.m.

    Haws was 11 for 11 from foul line the rest of the team was 10 for 19. Wichita State was 21 for 25. BYU continues to struggle badly from the foul line.
    This team loses when they get away from the TEAM concept. High, efficient scoring is a byproduct of good passing and good rebounding. When this team plays as 5 individuals trying to create their own shot, it is not going to be pretty. When the 2 stars of the team move the ball around, high percentage shots result. Both Carlino and Haws are capable of lighting it up and carrying the team. The problem is when one or both are not on, they press for more shots instead of working for the high percentage shots using other players. I hate to say it but Haws does not contribute much more than scoring (when he is on) and foul shooting. I really don' see him playing in the NBA.

  • ClarkeinAK Anchorage, AK
    Nov. 27, 2013 12:25 p.m.

    Why is it that EVERY BYU team chokes under the 'big game' spotlight?

  • Cougarista Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 11:21 a.m.

    Wichita St. no doubt has a very good team, but thanks Coach Rose for standing up to the officials. The announcers were also confused by many of the calls. It will be a strange season with the officials determining the outcome of many games with their own interpretation of the rules.

  • jarka-rus Layton, Utah
    Nov. 27, 2013 11:21 a.m.

    Byu had a chance in this game and then they came out after the half and pretty much threw up brick after brick. Thought I was watching the Jazz.

  • bigirish OREM, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 11:03 a.m.

    We can beat a ranked opponent once in a while, just enough to lead us fans to think we cab play on the big stage. But we can't seem to get it done a lot. Where's the great free throw shooting we used to have? Why can't we do it for more than a half? The same holds for the football team this year. We just need a few more plays. Good guys, no question, some significant inexperience. and not consistent with the talent. I think because Carlino shoots so much in the first half, and makes them - good - but doesn't allow Haws to get some shooting time and get in a rhythm. Then Carlino goes cold in the second half and Haws has a hard time getting started. He came back against TX, great, but not WS. I think that's on the coaches in the final analysis, for both sports. They seem to be watching the game rather than managing the game. And so it will be as long as we play ranked opponents early in the season, I think. They're ranked for a reason - and we're not...yet.

  • thebigsamoan Richmond, VA
    Nov. 27, 2013 11:02 a.m.

    If only Jabari had come to BYU! Oooh, what might have been! Too bad!

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 10:58 a.m.

    I see the Des News moderators are again denying things just because byu fans wouldn't like it.

    Byu had another chance to beat a truly great team, and failed.

    Beating an average Pac 12 team is not a "great win"

    Beating the 8th(of 10) big 12 teams is not a "great win"

    With this tough 5 game stretch I said if byu went 5-0 or 4-1 as great programs would with Texas, Iowa State, Wichita UMASS, and USU, I would openly say byu is a great team.

    Right now you're sitting at 1-2.

    I predicted a 2-3 finish in those 5 games, and i'll likely be right. And no, going 2-3 in that stretch is nothing to brag about.

    Nothing off topic about my comment.

  • babyR Salt Lake, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 10:54 a.m.

    Without Haws at the foul line, the Y wouldn't have been in the game at all. I think the team aught to call in Tyler's dad to teach them how to shoot foul shots!!

    Austin's flagrant foul 2 was way beneath the level of play expected from a Y player--however, it looked like Ron Baker may have contributed to the foul by RUNNING INTO AUSTIN!!! Of course the refs didn't even look at that!

  • motorbike Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 10:39 a.m.



    #28 BYU(4-2) #38 SOS
    #130 Utah(4-0) #351 SOS

    "While BYU is building an NCAA tournament resume and learning how to play against tourney-quality competition, Utah is scrimmaging against JC-quality teams... Ball State, Utah's first "stern" test, is ranked #213. When are the Utes going to play a team with a pulse?"

    So tell us all what you think about this:

    #53 Duke (5-1) #283 SOS

    Feel free to get back to us late in the season when these rankings actually mean something.

  • BYU9293 Clinton, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 10:09 a.m.

    To ekute,
    there is a huge difference between Austin's foul and Kane's. Austin was correctly ejected, he threw the elbow and you could even see him throw another one after. However, Kane was clearly only trying to injure Mika and it worked. They wanted Mika off the court and he was for the rest of the game and that is why they won. Kane was not blocking out and never came close to attempting to go for the ball. I believe that if you injure a player like Kane did, then you should be suspended for as long as it takes that player to come back. Thus, if you end their college career with a flagrant foul like that, then yours is over too. Thus, if Austin, who was obviously purposely throwing hard elbows had injured Baker, then he should be suspended too. It was sad to see Austin do that, but the flagrant 2 was the correct doubt.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Nov. 27, 2013 10:06 a.m.


    No Hater here, just a fan with an opinion. I would like to see Utah play a better non-conference schedule, but conference play will give Utah plenty of oppotunities to play ranked team. Currently BYU has 6 ranked teams on there schedule, Utah has 5. As a Gonzaga fan, I have come to realize that they play all of there tough games early, cruise through a weak schedule in the WCC, then lose in the 2nd round of the tournament. While BYU will be playing Gonzaga, Santa Clara and San Diego; Utah will be playing Oregon, Arizona and UCLA. Although BYU may end up playing a tougher schedule, by season's end it will be a lot more comparable. In summary, I would rather get my tough games later, than earlier; the NCAA tournament is not until March.

  • BYU9293 Clinton, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 10:01 a.m.

    I agree that byu needs more consistency from the big men. Mika is our only big man who is a threat to score. Austin hustles and play hard, but nobody is worried about him scoring and Worthington does look lost. I was so excited with the new rules this year because they really favor a team like byu. But they are not sticking to them. BYU's last 3 games show that. The officials have gone right back to just allowing mugging. It is sad, basketball used to be a better sport, it is just a bunch of thugs now, just who is bigger and pushes more. There is not as much skill in the game anymore.
    Carlino is an enigma, he can sometimes shoot well, but he also plays really stupid sometimes. It seems that anytime we get ahead by 10 points, he starts just throwing up garbage and then we blow the lead. Up tempo is great, but there must be execution. I think this years team is much better than last years and will make the tournament. Much better.

  • Daved6 Sandy, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 9:33 a.m.

    Against Stanford and Texas Haws played well and the results for the team were good. Against Iowa State and against Wichita State Haws played terrible and they lost both. They will live and die with him. He is not leading the team well though. His effort is all concerned about getting himself shots when he is playing poorly. He forces it too much in those situations and it's hurt his team in two games so far.

    But their biggest hole is the big men. Their defense is terrible on the interior. Oh and their swing guy (usually Haws) will not block out and rebound back side.

    Good game for the Shockers though. I liked their effort.

  • xert Santa Monica, CA
    Nov. 27, 2013 9:26 a.m.

    I might be proven wrong, but as a Ute fan--it's scary to watch the Coogs toughening up and taking bruises against really good teams early on. The Utes are winning, but against the worst sos in college basketball. True--they are beating those teams up and building a little chemistry, but let's face it--these are home games against teams who have not been tested themselves. I think they might be seriously in trouble against a more seasoned and tougher BYU squad when they meet in a few. Home court or not for the Utes--this BYU team has played tough against real competition and will not be afraid to step on the floor of the Huntsman Center.

  • TrueBlue Orem, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 9:22 a.m.

    @CB and the haters

    Tale of the tape (per Sagarin this morning):

    #28 BYU(4-2) #38 SOS
    #130 Utah(4-0) #351 SOS

    While BYU is building an NCAA tournament resume and learning how to play against tourney-quality competition, Utah is scrimmaging against JC-quality teams.

    (Sagarin doesn't even count games versus non-Div 1 programs.)

    Ball State, Utah's first "stern" test, is ranked #213. When are the Utes going to play a team with a pulse?

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Nov. 27, 2013 8:35 a.m.

    @ C B
    ESPN analyst Andy Katz is calling BYU a tournament team.
    Please tell us which world wide Sports Station you work for so we know you are qualified to make such predictions.
    Enjoy the first true test on the Utes schedule Ball State, they have not been the same since Dick Hunsaker (UVU's coach) was there.
    Everyone tune in at 10 am to hear CB's sports radio show LOL
    Andy Katz opinion matters not CB's

  • BYUForever Provo, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 8:28 a.m.

    This game honestly was nothing but disappointment.
    How do we lose a solid 13 point lead? I know. A lack of fundamental skills. It's time to go back to the basics. It's so frustrating. Our team has so much talent, so much potential and so much promise. We just can't capitalize on anything. Mika needs to get more minutes since it's obvious we play so much better with him in, but he just needs time to adjust to how they're going to call the game. I am frustrated, but I'm excited to see where this team goes. They have great things in store if they'll seize the opportunities.

  • bigv56 Cottonwood, CA
    Nov. 27, 2013 8:19 a.m.

    Carling often plays the team into and then out of games. How about a little judge,entails. Need an actual point guard.

  • SlopJ30 St Louis, MO
    Nov. 27, 2013 8:14 a.m.

    There may as well be a big red light on Carlino's head that says "TIME TO SHOOT" half the time he touches the ball. Doesn't matter what the score is, what the clock says, who's guarding him, how they're positioned, where he is on the court or where his teammates are, there are several plays every game where he just gonna shoot and that's that.

    He isn't a PG. It's a shame, because he makes some really nice passes on occasion, but everything good he does is negated by baffling, infuriating, smash-my-remote shot selection. Yet he's still out there during every crucial stretch. I love what coach Rose does, but how does he let a 40% shooter (30-ish on 3's) continue to jack up horrible shots without reprisal?

    If Carlino just cut out the worst 10% of his shots, he'd be a much more effective player. His efficiency would go up and he'd set up more teammates for easy looks. Unfortunately, at this point I fear he is what he is. I just don't get it . . it flies against everything I think I know about good basketball.

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Nov. 27, 2013 8:14 a.m.

    Tweet from ESPN's Andy Katz
    "Bar has been set by some of these losing teams this week: Dayton, Cal, BYU should be NCAA teams. Anything less than bid is disappointing."

  • Aggie84 Idaho Falls, ID
    Nov. 27, 2013 7:58 a.m.


    Nothing special about loosing to ranked teams. You should know.

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Nov. 27, 2013 7:44 a.m.

    I agree with Spokane Ute Haws needs to learn how to compete against bigger defenders. I think he was 3-19 or something pathetic.
    Wichita State has a really good defense but they got back in transition and BYU half court offense was pathetic.
    BYU was in it until the last couple of minutes then there were stupid fouls and shots and they threw away a game against a really good team.
    Lots of credit to Wichita State they are a well coached athletic team. I have a lot of hope for this BYU team. Took one top 20 team down to the very end and were in the game with another until the last couple of minutes, with their "star" playing terrible. With just Carlino playing well BYU is good if Haws and Carlino play well together (Stanford) they are really good.
    On the elbow new rule in college basketball a couple years ago any hit above the face results in an automatic flagrant 2 and ejection.
    When I played I hit people with loaded elbows if they were talking trash or playing dirty all game. Don't judge him too harshly, elbows (especially hidden ones) are commonplace at all levels of basketball.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Nov. 27, 2013 7:21 a.m.

    When is Haws going to learn that he can't go down when the game is on the line and shoot over 6'-8" defenders? Agree with Motor Bike regarding Austin's flagarant foul. One elblow wasn't enough, he locked and loaded for a second. Pretty dirty play.

    @Mildred in Fillmore

    You Rock!

  • thebigsamoan Richmond, VA
    Nov. 27, 2013 6:50 a.m.

    It's the tale of two halves. They play great in the first and then go stone cold in the second, especially Carlino! A few more threes and f/throws made and the outcome would've been different in our favor. It's very disappointing! Btw, I wish we have a couple more big men in our lineup to back up our sensational freshman! Mika's a beast but when he and Austin are in foul trouble we have nobody else we can count on. That other freshman kid, bless his heart, looks lost and outclassed every time he goes in. What will we do when Mika goes on his mission? Darn it, I know the Lord's work is more important but, umm, well, I think I'll just keep my selfish wish to myself!

    Bottom line is we seriously need a couple more big men, preferably a 7fter who can crash the boards. Nate does a decent job but gets into foul trouble way too easily! And we need to work on f/t efficiency. Other than Haws, and Carlino sometimes, the rest are simply awful!

    Good luck the rest of the way Cougars!!!

  • defibman Syracuse, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 5:45 a.m.

    This team just needs to learn Confidence!

  • thebig1 SLC, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 4:55 a.m.

    Carlino's side blip was interesting, since he was the one casting clunkers from pago pago and not letting anyone else touch it at the end.

    Nov. 27, 2013 12:16 a.m.


    Shoulda coulda woulda...there are always and will always be things to improve on

  • jasonlivy Orem, UT
    Nov. 27, 2013 12:14 a.m.

    What I see is BYU needs to spend more time in the gym shooting free throws and jump shots in the off season. This was a dismal display of shooting to say the least! They need to be shooting, outside of normal practice, 1000 jump shots a day and at least 500 free throws a day. Carlino, Haws, and others who are slated to be the scorers should get to the point where they are making 20 3's in a row consistently during their practice time.

    I can promise you if they aren't doing this, other teams are. And when it comes down to crunch time, it's muscle memory that takes over. The crowd, fatigue, nerves, and other issues will always be there. What it boils down to is whoever is spending the most time in the gym practicing their shot will win.

    Defense, time management, game management, the X's and O's are all important, but you have to put the ball in the hole!

    Until the players on the BYU team dedicate themselves to this end, this will be the result in these kinds of games.

  • CincyRed13 SLC, UT
    Nov. 26, 2013 11:43 p.m.

    As a big time BYU fan I must admit that this team irritates me more than any in recent memory. Awful free throw shooting, horrendous rebounding and selfish basketball. When you are up by 13 points against a team as good as Wichita State, you need to play smart and D it up. Instead, BYU seems to think that is the time to play selfish on both ends of the court. This team has so much promise but until they start rebounding and hitting their free throws they will not beat a great team.

  • idablu Idaho Falls, ID
    Nov. 26, 2013 11:30 p.m.

    With Carlino carrying the team the first half and everyone being ice cold the 2nd half it's amazing that the Cougs were even in the game 'til the end. Only 5 assists tonight compared to 20 last night. A lot more forced shots and less passing. There is a message here. They looked tired the 2nd half which also contributed to the awful shooting percentage.

    Disappointed in Rose's technical. The ref made the correct no call. The Cougs really unravelled toward the end including the coach.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Nov. 26, 2013 11:24 p.m.

    Dirty play

  • mountainflying Logan, UT
    Nov. 26, 2013 11:22 p.m.

    I really enjoyed the final score. I hope we see more scores with like this with BYU on the losing end.

  • Rational Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 26, 2013 11:21 p.m.

    "5 Cougars and 9 Shockers had more rebounds than Mika."

    You denied that? It is a statistic, moderator. Found in the box score. A fact, like the sun rises in the east.

    Of course, conclusions could be drawn from that statistic, but I drew no conclusion, made no judgments (Apparently you did, however).

    Let's give some examples of how it could be interpreted:

    Lots of long rebounds went to the guards
    Lots of close rebounds and he was guarding players away from the basket (see how that works either way?)
    Ball bounced the other way
    Stronger players pushed him out of the way
    He is gun-shy because of his eye injury
    He isn't aggressive
    He only played X minutes

    I'm not saying which of those is, isn't, or might be correct, just observing that 14 other players grabbed more rebounds.

  • DRay Roy, UT
    Nov. 26, 2013 11:20 p.m.

    how many points did the Cougars leave at the foul line? enough to have kept ahead and win the game is what I'm thinking. Yes the officiating was terrible and I don't know how Dave Rose stood it as long as he did, the flagrant 2 foul was a basketball play to block out and should have been a most a flagrant 1. Hard to understand how the BYU team shot so poorly. I feel there is a lot of fouling of Haws to keep him from getting open, though must admit it didn't seem to matter in the long run, as he missed so many shots...this is one they seemed to have given away. Perhaps just pressing to much, to anxious, stressed, needed to relax and play.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 26, 2013 11:18 p.m.

    A new excuse seems to be emerging from BYU fans. The basketball team only loses because the other team has more thugs.

    It's a good one.

  • Mildred in Fillmore Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 26, 2013 11:05 p.m.

    Every team plays too rough. Don't see how Austin's elbow to the face and then swinging it again as the guy goes down is a flagrant foul.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Nov. 26, 2013 11:05 p.m.

    Dave Rose is a top notch coach and has some talented young players, bodes well for the future but I don't think this years team is much better than last year's. Haws and Carlino are inconsistent, especially down the stretch. Mika is young and will continue to get into foul trouble. Like last year, expect another NIT bid.

    For you byu fans that were calling for Kane's suspension, does that Austin elbow bring things into perspective?

  • BYU9293 Clinton, UT
    Nov. 26, 2013 10:32 p.m.

    Very physical game. The call on Austin was correct, he clearly was swinging his elbows. Disappointed that all the emphasis at the beginning of the year about freedom of movement and making the game less physical has gone out the window and it is right back to being just physical, no finesse, just who is the bigger thug. But, the refs were pretty consistent on both sides, I just wish they would not have allowed it to get so physical because that hurts byu and favors Wichita. Closer game than the final score showed though.

  • NevadaCoug Overton, NV
    Nov. 26, 2013 9:38 p.m.

    Allowing too many offensive boards and not making free throws. Imagine what the BYU lead would be like if they could clean up those two things?

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Nov. 26, 2013 9:21 p.m.

    Need to make free throws!

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    Nov. 26, 2013 9:16 p.m.

    Looking like a repeat of last night - Carlino carries the team in the 1st half; watch for Haws in the 2nd half. BYU just needs to rebound and make shots and they'll win this one.