The history of presidential shame

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  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 15, 2013 9:58 p.m.

    Counter Intelligence.... cherry picking the events of that day works great to make talking points, but they don't reflect the actual events of that day. What was going on that day didn't happen in just one city - there was at least another eight like events happening at the same time period. And yes, many of them were about the stupid movie... but as we know now in hind sight, not all of them. Had those other events not been going on... sure.... I can see your point of view. But the only way to say it was an overt cover up is to ignore those other events.... which you can't.

    What amazes me is in the years leading up to this particular attack, there had been 13 other attacks against US facilities in which there were fatalities. This was the second most deadly..... and yet.... somehow this is the only one conservatives seem to care about. Evidently like events when a Republican is in office, even if there was greater loss in life, just aren't as important.

    Funny how that works out that way.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 15, 2013 1:01 p.m.

    Bush made a bad decision based upon faulty information that extended to previous administrations and he may have been a bad president.
    Obama knew people could not keep their insurance years ago but kept repeating the lie anyhow.
    Not comparable.

    Blame Bush as much as you want, but Obama's lies are his own and only the willfully blind still refuse to see.

    It is absolutely clear that the Obama administration contrived and continued the story of a phony YouTube video long after they KNEW it was terrorism AND the Obama administration still silences survivors.

    How can anyone continue to justify this corrupt administration?

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Nov. 15, 2013 7:54 a.m.

    Clinton: ....Was information developing? Was the situation fluid? Would we reach conclusions later that weren’t reached initially? And I appreciate the --:

    Clinton: With all due respect, the fact is we had four dead Americans. Was it because of a protest or was it because of guys out for a walk one night who decided that they’d they go kill some Americans? What difference at this point does it make? It is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again, Senator. Now, honestly, I will do my best to answer your questions about this, but the fact is that people were trying in real time to get to the best information. The IC (intelligence community) has a process, I understand, going with the other committees to explain how these talking points came out. But you know, to be clear, it is, from my perspective, less important today looking backwards as to why these militants decided they did it than to find them and bring them to justice, and then maybe we’ll figure out what was going on in the meantime.

  • Nate Pleasant Grove, UT
    Nov. 14, 2013 5:03 p.m.

    @UtahBlueDevil " was just announced that those policies that are being cancelled, will still be able to be offered still..."

    Grandfathered for one year, after which they must be replaced with Obamacare-approved policies -- at the same time that tens of millions of employer-provided plans suffer the same fate, as demanded by the fundamental design of the law.

    Compare with "If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan. Period."

    "And what lies disqualifies [sic] a person?"

    Precisely that one. He looked straight at the American people and lied to us.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 14, 2013 3:06 p.m.

    Nate... it was just announced that those policies that are being cancelled, will still be able to be offered still.... so was it a lie for a little while, and not a lie because those policies will now be available?

    And what lies disqualifies a person? Lies about things people misunderstood or misspoke on? Lies because of differing opinions - differing beliefs of what the truth is? Lies when people claim one person will win an office... and they don't? Lies to prevent hurt feelings? Lies why you were late? Lies you tell kids about holidays..... which lies are "offensive" and which ones are ok?

    I do think Obama got caught in a policy that wasn't completely thought through.... that had holes in it. How much he knew that he didn't know.... who knows. But every President is guilty of a "lie" of some sort. Every President...

  • Nate Pleasant Grove, UT
    Nov. 14, 2013 1:00 p.m.

    @pragmatistferlife "I presume folks like Nate haven't looked at the details of this."

    You presume incorrectly.

    You will not be able to produce a detail that makes Obama's lie any less a lie.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Nov. 14, 2013 10:59 a.m.

    "My heart sank when I got an email late last month from my friend Robert, who has been battling multiple sclerosis for the past decade. He wrote to tell me that he was among the many Americans who in recent weeks received letters from their insurance companies saying that their policies won’t be available next year.

    Insurance companies are sending those letters primarily because the policies they will no longer offer don’t provide enough coverage — or have deductibles that are too high — to comply with the Affordable Care Act. In many cases, however, the policyholders getting those letters are simply victims of a business practice insurers have engaged in for years: discontinuing policies because they’re no longer sufficiently profitable.

    Robert understandably was worried. Considering his very serious and costly preexisting condition — his medications alone cost more than $5,000 a month — Robert was nervous as he started looking for a replacement policy. How much more would he have to pay to stay insured?

    Robert could barely believe what he heard: he could get better coverage than the policy being discontinued — and pay less — thanks to Obamacare."
    (Wendell Potter)

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Nov. 14, 2013 10:35 a.m.

    As for tort reform.

    "In a letter to Republican Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah, CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf said that a package of changes including limits on malpractice awards "would reduce total national health care spending by about 0.5 percent (about $11 billion in 2009)."

    According to the Health and Human Services' Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, the following states have imposed limits on non-economic damages ranging from $250,000 to $750,000.
    These states include:

    New Mexico
    North Dakota
    South Dakota
    West Virginia
    There are about 12 percent more physicians per capita in states with damage caps than in states without caps, according to HHS.


    A case in CA, Stinnett v. Tam, involved a medical negligence claim against the defendant-physician. The jury awarded the injured plaintiff $6 million in noneconomic damages. However, the trial court reduced the amount to $250,000 based on the Medical Injury Compensation Reform Act (MICRA), which capped noneconomic damages in “any action for injury against a health care provider based on professional negligence.”

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 14, 2013 9:59 a.m.

    Joan: You are right. "Junk" is an inarticulate term to describe policies that have to be canceled to make way for the ACA. There is an easy way to keep the old separate from the new type policy that is easy to remember. The policies that are being canceled now are individual market policies. In the individual market, all policies are written on an annual basis vs. group policies which can be written for a longer term. All individual policies are able to be canceled by the company at the end of each year. Why would they cancel when you paid your premium? If you had too many claims or had a catastrophic illness. The ACA specifies that you cannot be canceled for the condition of your health. Hence all policies will have to be rewritten eventually. Why that point wasn't made before the rollout is a mystery to both sides, but I would describe the old as much worse for the consumer than the new mandated forms.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 14, 2013 9:19 a.m.

    MTman: Guess you didn't notice that the cost of buying health insurance has been going up at double the inflation rate for over 20 years even without the ACA. The ACA is an attempt to deal with the affordability issue. The only thing the Pubs brought up at the time the law passed was: 1. "The free market will fix it," when it hadn't in 20 years. 2. Tort reform will limit malpractice premiums and bring down the cost. Two days ago Sarah Palin, luminary of the right said the exact same two things will fix the problem. So do it and then lets talk. Has anyone proposed an alternative? No. Why hasn't the House who has passed repeal of the ACA over 40 times come up with ONE alternative bill? Because they know when they do the reality will set in that both of those claims have been tried in various States and failed.

    Finally, without the ACA employers have gotten out of the health care business because they can't control costs. If the ACA fails the choices are two: Another plan to lower cost or National Health Insurance.

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    Nov. 14, 2013 9:16 a.m.

    Has anyone noticed that when this POTUS misspeaks it's a lie and when the previous POTUS spoke he was misled? It's time for you all to become part of the solution rather than corporate shills and parrots. When will we realize that just because you are sitting in your comfortable compound in Northern Idaho or brick rambler in South Jordan there are millions that have no access to affordable healthcare. Good healthcare should not be a privilege but a right as it is in the rest of the industrialized world. If you are truly concerned about your children and grandchildren then educate yourself and dump the me, me, me business. A healthy and educated society is what will bring our nation back, not feeding the Buffets of the world.

  • Joan Watson TWIN FALLS, ID
    Nov. 14, 2013 9:12 a.m.

    One supposes that it is ok and excusable for someone to deliberately lie, when they know, or are informed that what they will say is a total lie. Also this new term 'junk' insurance - just what does that mean? Evidently millions of citizens had, by their own choice, what is now termed, by this administration, as 'junk' insurance.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Nov. 14, 2013 8:33 a.m.

    First of all Hillary's statement was specifically in response to the chiding of Darrell Izza about the video being used as the reason for the attack. Her response was what difference does it make now what was said at the time about the cause (not a direct quote but close) we have problems to solve and decisions to make. She was not saying what difference does the attack make. That's pure Republican fabrication.

    The other talking point here that needs clarification is the "administration estimated 51% of Americans would lose their insurance". I presume folks like Nate haven't looked at the details of this. It was an estimate in 2010 based on pre ACA company practices of increasing deductibles, co-payments, out of pocket expenses, and enrollment restrictions that if continued would disqualify them for the grandfather clause.

    Point being this is exactly why the ACA was passed because the employer sponsored health insurance practice was unraveling and leaving everyone in the lurch. Estimates now are much lower..the point of the law.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Nov. 14, 2013 7:21 a.m.

    "Well, we know for sure that American died and there was no help provided by the US military to try to save them."

    And we KNOW that the same thing happened many more times in the years prior to Obama being elected president.

    Off the top of your head, can you name 3 or 4 of those embassy and consulate attacks and the number of dead Americans?

    Probably not. But they certainly happened.

    But, somehow this is different.

  • SCfan clearfield, UT
    Nov. 14, 2013 7:17 a.m.

    What is shows in large part is that America only pays attention to what the mainstream media, NBC, ABC, CBS, ect. want them to pay attention to. In spite of Fox News and a few conservative outlets, the major news organizations still have by far the largest audiences and carry the water, or spill it, on who or what they want. If a big deal gets made by them, the people will care. If a story is ignored by them, the people will ignore it. In the case of Hillary and Benghazi, the fact that it hasn't gotten traction now may be good if she runs. When the commercials start coming out in the summer of 2016 of her making her famous statement, the impact will be more profound. And she will on the defensive trying to explain what she meant, which is a position no one running for President want to be in.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 14, 2013 5:31 a.m.

    4601 - no one is excusing misbehavior or leveraging past behavior as justification for current events. What is being asked is that judgement be held off until the "facts" are fully in. What we have with Libya is a lot speculation, and a failure to publicly disclose the mission and capability of the CIA contingent on the ground. No one should be surprised or shocked to anyone. No one has brought any proof we had any capability in theater that we choose not to bring to bear.

    That doesn't change the need to fully explore all the facts. But this falls a long way short of a cover up. If it is possible that we had a multi year operation where the US was selling drugs to fund and provide weapons, operate a paramilitary army in central America and funnel funds to Iraq, all without Bush or Reagan knowing about it.... is it at all possible that Obama was not at the helm of decisions about actions that were happening in real time on the ground in Libya.

    The politically convenient memory and conditionality of judgement never ceases to amaze me.... on both sides.

  • Nate Pleasant Grove, UT
    Nov. 14, 2013 4:21 a.m.

    @Irony Guy "When he said 'You can keep your insurance' he was talking to the 97 percent of us for whom that's true."

    That is a bogus number. The individual mandates are only the beginning. When the employer mandates kick in a year from now, another round of Americans will lose their insurance. The Obama administration estimated three years ago that a total of 51% of Americans would be affected (mid-range estimate) and up to 69% (high-end estimate).

    Obamacare is based on the idea that young, healthy Americans pay more for their insurance in order to cover the costs of older, less healthy Americans and the newly insured. This transfer of wealth cannot take place if everyone keeps their existing plan.

    Obama knew this. Yet he was going around telling everyone "If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan. Period." It was a willful lie.

  • high school fan Huntington, UT
    Nov. 14, 2013 2:57 a.m.

    Those on the left that post here can't be bothered by the facts and those on the right that post here shouldn't be bothered by name calling.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 11:47 p.m.

    "Obamacare has to force more expensive healthcare policies on 95% of other Americans"

    The idea that 95% of Americans are having more expensive healthcare under Obamacare is a lie.

  • Hamath Omaha, NE
    Nov. 13, 2013 8:39 p.m.

    @ Ranch... good point!
    @ Mountainman... you're right, it's going to be ugly. So far all that seems to be happening is the ACA is uninsuring the insured.
    @ Utah.. true, the story has been reneged. It's so hard to get something out of the public mind once it's in place. My favorite example of this is the old "Wine is good for you according to research"... the guy who published that study was fired for faking the data but everyone still thinks it's true.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 7:42 p.m.

    George Bush lied and thousands are now dead. Why didn't the author mention this? Partisanship, of course.

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 7:37 p.m.

    The presidential shame goes back much, much further than Eisenhower.

    Let's try 1804, when Thomas Jefferson unilaterally entered into a land purchase, from France, the Louisiana Purchase, which was absolutely unconstitutional, and vigorously opposed at the time on constitutional grounds.

    So, where does that leave us?

    Evidently the USA has been presidentially embarrassed and undermined since shortly after our inception.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 13, 2013 3:37 p.m.

    @ Grover. No, I don't have ESP but I do have a brain and knew Obamacare would be a complete flop. Why? Because in order to force funding for 5% of the population that for whatever reason has no healthcare insurance, especially the very high risk policies, Obamacare has to force more expensive healthcare policies on 95% of other Americans and they are not going to like paying much, much more for insurance they do not need or want, like maternity insurance for 50 year olds. So far we have only seen the effects of the private payer mandates. What do you think YOUR employer will do when he has to pay through the nose for YOUR much more expensive healthcare insurance? Duh! I hope you are getting ready to insure yourself on the Obamacare exchange! Its what's next for Obamacare coming to you right after New Year's day!

  • wrz Phoenix, AZ
    Nov. 13, 2013 1:59 p.m.

    "What it proves is so far nothing has been proven about what happened in Bengazhi..."

    Well, we know for sure that American died and there was no help provided by the US military to try to save them.

    "And that the final chapter on Obamacare isn't even in play yet."

    True. The final chapter is total repeal.

    "And I think that is goodness."

    I think that is goodnews.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 1:42 p.m.

    What is nice about mountanman posts is that he always is ready to tell us what is going to happen before it happens. How about just sticking to the one sided jibes and letting the DNews report on what really does happen? He has proven many times over that he is not possessed of ESP, just a wishful partisan point of view.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 1:42 p.m.

    "Excusing the Benghazi fiasco and cover up." The problem is not past politicians or voter apathy it is that the far right has yet to provide any credible evidence to support their claims. Maybe the problem is they fail to recognize it is time to give up the wild goose chase and get back to work.

    Maybe instead of worrying about playing pointless gotta games that will lead no were you should demand that your representatives (including the president, congress and senate) get back to work fixing the problems the ACA?

  • Hemlock Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 1:18 p.m.

    @Irony Guy
    Pro forma? Is that Latin for deception? That is perhaps the flimsiest excuse yet put forward and really says that individuals are not important. There was so much misinformation in the hype of the ACA, signing up for it will be like shopping online, savings of $2500, it will bend the cost curve down, it will lower the deficit, the total cost will be less that $1 trillion (The CBO says it will be more that $2 trillion plus.), medical care would be universal and affordable, not to mention the promise to keep your insurance and doctor, that it is hard to focus on just one failed promise.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 13, 2013 1:15 p.m.

    In the meantime, 1,000,000 Californians lost their healthcare insurance (so far) while Obama generalizes! Think Obamacare is bad now? Wait until the employer mandate hits next year and the real problems begin!

  • 4601 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 1:06 p.m.

    Excusing the Benghazi fiasco and cover up because of past politicians' misbehavior is the same as saying that such behavior is acceptable. When viewed through a political lens, if someone is from your partisan stance, they can do no wrong. That is a microcosm of the problems in today's politics. Shame on us.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 12:56 p.m.

    Values and religion are not the synonymous sorry.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Nov. 13, 2013 12:49 p.m.

    A president is a generalist. When he said "You can keep your insurance" he was talking to the 97 percent of us for whom that's true. The 3 percent with junk policies were apparently not in his sights. I don't fault him for that. Technically, what he said wasn't right, but in the generalized world he must live in, it was pro forma.

  • David Centerville, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 12:21 p.m.

    Good point in the letter.

    It speaks to the political disconnect that too many Americans have fallen into.

    It speaks to the degradation of the historical norms of character and society.

    As we become more secular, we find ourselves losing values of integrity, honesty, charity, humility, and so many other qualities of goodness, as taught by God.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 13, 2013 12:06 p.m.

    What it proves is so far nothing has been proven about what happened in Bengazhi, and in fact one of the contractors stories which fueled this speculation of a cover up... is currently now being back off by the sources that first reported it. Seems you can't be in two places at the same time. And that the final chapter on Obamacare ins't even in play yet. It shows that most Americans, who aren't largely driven by a political agenda, are patient enough to let all the facts be known before they rush to a passion driven opinion.

    And I think that is goodness. And please, lets not pretend there was not a rush to judgement by certain groups. Sometimes the accusations turned out to be true, other times not. Iran-Contra, turned out to be true, and yet Reagan and Bush were held absolved. It has happened in the past, for both parties, and is nothing new.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 12:03 p.m.

    it says we are tired of the conspiracy theories and gotta games. It says we want our representatives on both sides (including the President) to stop playing the gotta game and get to work. I don't know if you noticed but no one in DC is polling very well these days.