Letter: Berlin Wall

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  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Nov. 16, 2013 7:15 p.m.

    wait !!! The Democratic party is the party of choice....right?? I mean the dems are all about NOT restricting people and letting people choose...right?? What the rest of the country is now finding out with this ugly tidal wave of sludge called Obamacare is that in reality choice is the LAST thing the dems want to provide. Who would have figured that? Yes choice means freedom and freedom means less power to the Federal government - every good Communist's nightmare. The king indeed has no clothes for all to see and it ain't pretty...

  • HaHaHaHa Othello, WA
    Nov. 14, 2013 9:28 a.m.

    @ Blue

    Actually your right and I agree with you, I have deep disrespect for those who cant think past the tip of their nose.

    You can go on with your wordy excuse of what you think obamacare does, but ultimately it is just a way for you big government types to impose yourselves in everyones life. Something you claim to despise when the shoe is on the other foot. In one breath you laid out a "funding mechanism" that we have had for years, in the next breath you go on and rave about the new funding model, as though it ultimately makes healthcare better. Round about way to do the same thing. All because you have this giant crush on bho. Yeah you don't like the old model, and will deny it is a real mechanism, but it is and it does work. Yeah, we all know it could be better, didn't need 3000 pages of carved up, legislation that excludes some and subsidizes others. Taxes some and gives handouts to others. Expands government and IRS powers, while taking away choice and liberty of others.

  • flyboy53 HERRIMAN, UT
    Nov. 14, 2013 7:21 a.m.

    2bits: You are questioned and sometimes searched when ENTERING Canada, Mexico, and every other country, not when LEAVING the US--it's the country RECEIVING visitors whose employees do the same thing our CBP folks do.
    I agree with the overall premise of the original writer: We are losing our freedoms piecemeal, always under the guise of making someone else's life better. Our government does not trust most of us with our freedoms, which is completely backward from the way it was designed, but it's because many of us are not trustworthy: we will make selfish decisions instead of moral decisions. We are slowly trading places with the tyrannical Soviet Union, China, and others, which are slowly becoming more free. With their bustling economy, China is borderline capitalist with a communist government that is trying to maintain a power that is not maintainable in the long run. Weird how history evolves.
    Even though we have to keep an eye on our government continuously, I'd still rather live in jail in the US than king of any other country.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 14, 2013 5:42 a.m.

    HaHaHaHa - all that you have proven is that you have deep disrespect for those who don't share your own opinion.

    What the CBO is counting on in some of those cost is that before ObamaCare, there was a mandate that all who show up at the emergency rooms door must receive care... and there is no funding mechanism for this. Either the care giver eats this expense, passes it on to others in higher fees, or the government is left to pick up the cost. ObamaCare provides funding to alleviate this back door medical treatment. It isn't that it is cheaper - it is that it has an actual dedicated funding model. You yank ObamaCare - you yank the funding for this Reagan mandated care method.

    Is it the best solution possible? Perhaps not. But snide comments, insults.... none of those will solve a single problem, nor will they influence anyone to your opinion. But based on your screen name.... i am guessing that actually influencing opinion isn't your goal.... mockery seems to be the objective.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 13, 2013 9:05 p.m.


    Irrespective of what you believe about Obamacare and how it will be paid for, the CBO is, in fact, non-partisan. The Congressional Budget Office works for both parties. Currently, the Senate is controlled by Democrats and the House by Republicans - so neither party would have control anyway.

  • HaHaHaHa Othello, WA
    Nov. 13, 2013 6:09 p.m.

    "The nonpartisan CBO estimates that repealing Obamacare would add 100 billion to the deficit. Obamacare, in their view, is more than fully paid for the next ten years (by the tax increases, no-insurance fines, and Medicare cuts)."

    You are more naive then I can imagine if you think the cbo is non-partisan. I believe the mindless notion all you lefty's throw around about repealing obamacare, and that action adding more to the deficit, refers to the theory that repeal is more expensive then obamacare. It's strictly a partisan notion that adds to the obamacare litany of exucses, not that obamacare is paid for and offers debt reduction and rosy financial scenarios. Pathetic to see your blind loyalty to the anointed one. When you state obamacare is "more then fully paid for the next ten years", thus no tax increases or medicare cuts...Would you care to put your money where your mouth is? I'll take that bet!! ....didn't think so!

  • cavetroll SANDY, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 2:35 p.m.

    Re: Mike richards

    "Read the Constitution. Read Article 1, Section 8 until you understand those duties that are authorized to the Federal level of government. All other duties are to be left to the States or to the People. Either we uphold the Constitution or we do not."

    I read Article 1, Section 8. I'm going out on a limb here, but do you believe the Air Force is unconsitutional? Using your strict interpretation of the Consitution, the Air Force is uncositutional because Atricle 1 Section 8 makes no mention of it. It only mentions armies and the Navy. What about the Marines? The Coast Guard?

    Also, in reading Article !, Section 8, it clearly states "provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States." Wouldn't most regulations, even ones you disagree with fall under those categories?

  • cavetroll SANDY, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 2:21 p.m.

    2 bit


    And the "zion curtain" comment was entirely on topic. The letter writer was bemoaning all the rules and regulations the government forces on us. The Zion curtain is a prime example of needless regulations forced upon the people. That particulr issue may not be big now, but it just one of many the government has forced that people find ridiculous. When somebody compares the regulaitons we have here in America to the oppression of the Berlin Wall, a comparable inane statement needs to be made.

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Nov. 13, 2013 12:36 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" give me the name of the article that shows that their profit margins are going up. Yes Yahoo Finance says that those are the industry averages, but are those averages going up, or down. You have not answered that question. You have not given anything verifiable. Is that intentional so that it is more difficult to show you that you are wrong?

    Let me make this clear. Where is the article stating that since the ACA was passed that the drug companies and medical device companies have increased their profit margins?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 11:23 a.m.

    Can't you read:

    According to this data at Yahoo Finance

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Nov. 13, 2013 10:57 a.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" the profit margins on health insurance companies has not doubled. Over the past 10 years their profit margins have actually decreased.

    During that time the drug manufacturers and medical device companies have maintained their average profit margins too. According to CSI market, the medical device industry has seen their profit margins drop since the ACA was passed. In 2004 they averaged 20%, now they average 16%.

    Where is your proof that any of those industries are gouging? You are making it up.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 10:18 a.m.

    Ya Mike: A majority of the people want a Universal BackGropund checks...but the House (and almost certainly you) says "no". How come no complaints about that.


    Pasedena, CA

    Based on number 2 years ago - [BEFORE they doubled]

    The health-care sector is absurdly profitable.
    According to this data at Yahoo Finance, the sector-wide profit margin is 21.5 %.

    The major drug manufacturers have a 23 % profit margin.
    The medical device makers are pulling in 12.6 %.

    Do you really believe costs have double in only 2 short years?
    Will we see the Profits end up doubling in those same 2 years?

    = Price gouging.

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Nov. 13, 2013 9:34 a.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" it is not called price gouging. It is called government regulations adding to the cost of insurance. If it was price gouging, then the profits for the insurance companies would be jumping from 3% to 35% on average. However, their margins are remaining the same. How can their profit margins remain the same if they are gouging anybody?

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 9:18 a.m.

    J Thompson,

    I think you're making a false assumption. You seem to equate "civilized society" with some sort of perfect democracy where the people en masse somehow (without government) set rules for themselves. I can't imagine what that society would look like, since there has never been one, but I do know this: there are quite a few societies that are civilized but that do not enjoy a representative government, as we do. Civilization has no necessary connection with the form of government.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 8:33 a.m.

    Pasedena, CA
    To "atl134" lets look at the Society of Actuaries, and see what they have to say. According to their study titled "Cost of the Future Newly Insured under the Affordable Care Act" they find that the average cost of insurance across all states has increased by 32% compared to pre-ACA figures. Forbes has a nice interactive map that shows state by state the price change in insurance due to the ACA. See "49-State Analysis: Obamacare To Increase Individual-Market Premiums By Average Of 41%"


    That's called price gouging, and it has nothing to do with the ACA other than for-profit companies making the most of it.

    It's happening now because Government regulators will be shutting them down after Jan.1st when it goes into effect.

    From that point on, they will then have to justify any further increases to the Gv'mnent.
    Just like Rocky Mountain Power and Questar Gas have to get justify and seek approval BEFORE they can increase their prices.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Nov. 13, 2013 8:04 a.m.

    Everyone needs to notice that arguments such as RedShirt's about skyrocketing premiums are arguments that pertain to those who are buying insurance in the individual market on their own and they fail to factor into their argument the whole picture that includes subsidies and better coverage. Yea a Buick costs more than a Hyundi.

    The latest census data said that over 270 million people get their insurance through their employer and almost none of those people will lose insurance coverage because of the ACA. So somewhere between 75 and 80 percent of Americans with health insurance will not be negatively effected at all.

    Thank goodness Doctors don't practice medicine the way conservatives argue the ACA. If they did once one of your organs went bad you'd have to be put down even though everything else worked fine.

    As others have pointed out the

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Nov. 13, 2013 7:24 a.m.

    To "atl134" lets look at the Society of Actuaries, and see what they have to say. According to their study titled "Cost of the Future Newly Insured under the Affordable Care Act" they find that the average cost of insurance across all states has increased by 32% compared to pre-ACA figures. Forbes has a nice interactive map that shows state by state the price change in insurance due to the ACA. See "49-State Analysis: Obamacare To Increase Individual-Market Premiums By Average Of 41%"

    As for people losing their insurance plans, thus losing coverage, read "Obama Officials In 2010: 93 Million Americans Will Be Unable To Keep Their Health Plans Under Obamacare" in Forbes. They find that the Government estimated that 15 million people would lose their insurance. Don't you think that is bad?

    As for adding to the Deficit, the CBO has revised their numbers since then. They are going to add the $110 billion/yr to the deficit, but there is no end. Think of it this way. When has the CBO ever estimated the cost of healthcare right?

  • Jl Sandy, UT
    Nov. 13, 2013 7:13 a.m.

    Mr Richards, look into the numbers sir, you'll be enlightened to find out that of the 59% most know Obamacare does not go far enough. It is a republican idea adopted to appease the right for their support and since they adopted the strategy to obstruct everything it is the right that ground our nation to a grinding stop.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Nov. 12, 2013 7:58 p.m.

    The ACA was passed by two houses of Congress, signed by the president, and adjudicated as constitutional by the court of last resort. That is the procedure we follow in our constitutional system. So yes, Mike Richards, the ACA is the result of our representative government at work.

  • utah chick cedar city, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 7:45 p.m.

    Mr. West,

    What about MY choice about MY body? SERIOUSLY? Are you going to tell me the right wing agenda about ME deciding for myself, about MY health, is not a "WALL"?

    Get back to me when you can figure that out.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 7:36 p.m.

    Hey Mikey: A majority of the people want an immigration bill...but the House (and almost certainly you) says "no". How come no complaints about that. The Democrats didn't give us Obamacare, the Constitution you lecture on gave the majority the right to pass law that was signed by the President and validated by the Supreme Court. So please explain why in the case of Obamacare we need to forget about all of that and obey the majority sentiment?

  • Curmudgeon Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 6:17 p.m.


    Where does the Constitution say we should be governed by polls, rather than by the representatives who were elected by the people according to the procedures established by the Constitution?

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 12, 2013 6:16 p.m.

    RedShirt 1701,

    Semi-Strong here.

    Again, I am not the ACA's defender so you will have to find someone else to respond to your points. However, Alt 134 seems to cogently answer some of your claims.

    My simple point is this is a big legislation that will be tweaked and tweaked again. Judging it on the first year rollout is unlikely to be accurate.

    But you are silent on my other (real) points - that we had significant problems that were only being addressed due to govt. intervention and even then not fully. So, what is the right answer? If not the ACA/Romneycare/Heritage Foundation/Originally a Republican program, what is the right solution?

    Please don't say the free market. As we have already noted, that was failing those who were ill. The free market was pulling away not toward those with preexisting conditions.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 4:51 p.m.

    "Costs are up in 45 states."

    According to a Heritage Foundation study that did not take into account the subsidies making it an extremely misleading statement at best and a lie at worst.

    "Coverage is down."

    False. Especially since the Medicaid expansion and student staying on parents plan provisions have increased coverage.

    "The system is going to add Trillions of dollars to the debt."

    False. The nonpartisan CBO estimates that repealing Obamacare would add 100 billion to the deficit. Obamacare, in their view, is more than fully paid for the next ten years (by the tax increases, no-insurance fines, and Medicare cuts).

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Nov. 12, 2013 4:39 p.m.

    Have some of the posters been living in a time warp? Are they not literate enough to know that 59% of the people were against ObamaCare, yet the Democrats forced that program on us. Was that "representative government"? Did the "government" do the will of the people, or did it force on us "its" will? Did those in government really think that they are royalty or that they are superior or that they were divinely appointed to "help" us understand the principles of liberty and freedom by forcing on us a program that 59% of us rejected?

    The words from those who think that "government" is doing the will of the people just because the "government" was elected by the people are hollow. We have not elected a "government" that has self-appointed "rights". All elected officials take an oath to abide by the rules that we, the People, have set in the Constitution. Many ignore the Constitution. They claim exemption from that Supreme Law of the Land. They would have us live is a world where they can rule using principles of situational ethics. There's is a world where might makes right. I reject that "principle".

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Nov. 12, 2013 4:28 p.m.

    To "Semi-Strong" what do you mean that it is too early to tell?

    Costs are up in 45 states.

    Coverage is down.

    Doctors are not accepting insurance.

    Taxes are up on medical device companies.

    People are losing their insurance plans.

    The system is going to add Trillions of dollars to the debt.

    Basically every single promise made has been broken.

    Tell us, what actually worked?

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 12, 2013 4:09 p.m.

    J Thompson - where you have it all wrong is "we" are the government. We have a representative government authorized by us, as a society. Pretending that there is this foreign entity called the "government" is a diversion from responsibility. If we as a people don't like what the government does, it is up to US to change it.

    Failures by government are failures of the people of the people who elect the government. We may not always agree with the direction of the majority, but it is the system we have.

    If the "elite" are in charge, it is only because we voted them there. They didn't just appear... they had to be voted into these places by you, me, and everyone else. Freedom requires responsibility, and that you don't always get what you want.... to protect others freedoms. Freedom doesn't mean it is just about you and your needs.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 4:01 p.m.

    "I would like to think that I can choose what is best for me and my family and not be told by the government what is best for us." Amen, brother. Another supporter of my Casino Utah idea. Seriously, though, be careful what you wish for. The line has to be drawn somewhere before anarchy.

  • EDM Castle Valley, Utah
    Nov. 12, 2013 3:58 p.m.


    "Mr, West, tear down this Zion Curtain!" LOL! Thank you.

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Nov. 12, 2013 3:51 p.m.

    RedShirt 1701,

    Glad to hear that it went well for you. Perhaps it was a matter of different circumstances or states. Not sure. But suffice to say that in those days not all was well for those who were unwell.

    My out of pocket expenses have been growing for years - quite independent of the ACA.

    As to the ACA, not really something I am trying to defend or promote. I am simply arguing that there were significant problems prior and that these needed to be addressed. Further, that the oft touted free market solutions are simply untrue. As you noted, govt. intervention was required to force insurers to take on folks with pre-existing conditions (and, as I noted, even that was insufficient in some cases).

    As to a post mortem on the ACA - far too early to tell.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Nov. 12, 2013 3:25 p.m.

    "A "civilized society" follows rules set by the people, not rules set by the government."

    And who do you think "the government" is?

  • Unreconstructed Reb Chantilly, VA
    Nov. 12, 2013 3:16 p.m.

    Mike Richards, the wonderful thing about this country is that we are free to adopt differing political interpretations, including differing interpretations of Constitutional powers and authorities, and are absolutely free to express those views in open forums.

    The original letter is completely wrong for failing to recognize that fundamental difference between our country and the former Eastern Bloc.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Nov. 12, 2013 3:00 p.m.

    To "Semi-Strong" my experience has been quite the opposite. I had a brother that was covered by insurance during the 1980's on the individual market after being diagnosed with a condition that now would make him uninsurable. My parents experience with the high risk pool exchanges has been that prior to the ACA their insurance was cheaper and covered more.

    Take a look at the ACA, and tell me what it has done to fix any of the problems.

    Did it make insurance cheaper? Are your out of pocket expenses more or less now?

    Tell us, what good has the ACA accomplished? Estimates are out there that at best it would only cover 15 million people, but at the same time current estimates say that it will cause 15 million to lose their current policies that they liked.

    The ACA is making medical care more expensive through taxes and Doctor shortages.

    What good has come from the ACA?

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 2:54 p.m.

    A "civilized society" follows rules set by the people, not rules set by the government. The people arpay for all government services and programs. If the people want protection from each other, they have the courts. The Constitution protects us from the Government.

    Those who tell us that the government has the right to dictate to us what to believe and how to live want a King. They don't want the People of this nation to be in charge. They long for the days of King George, who was crazy enough to think that he had the right to tax us for services that we did not want and for programs that restricted our liberties.

    Those who long for those days have betrayed the principles that make America the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. They want to be coddled, like infants, and protected from their personal responsibility to act as adults. If they get their wish, we will become another society where the "elite" tell us how to think and how to act, even while the "elite" ignore the those "rules".

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Nov. 12, 2013 2:46 p.m.


    Just to be clear your statement was "Prior to the ACA a person with pre-existing conditions was more free to get insurance than they are now. Prior to the ACA an (sic) much of the regulation that proceeded (sic) it a person with pre-existing conditions could get insurance."

    Here you are arguing that "we have had laws since the mid 1990s that created high risk pools for each state to cover those people".

    First, yes I was talking about pre-mid 1990s. The good old days when there was less regulation (when I had my first experiences here).

    Second, I have heard folks say that they could not get insurance via the exchanges. In other cases they could but not at a price that a person with a normal income could actually afford.

    Third, your answer essentially breaks down to the fact that we had to make a law. So, even if I accept that the exchanges were sufficient, the answer was still government regulation and intervention, true?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 2:40 p.m.

    For the record --
    You are still as free as you want to be.

    You don't have to pay taxes,
    buy insurance,
    or registrar your weapons.

    Nothing is stopping you from living in your cabin and pretend it’s 1776 --
    Fell free to :
    grow your own food,
    barter and trade,
    dig your own well,
    have your guns,
    get sick and die.
    You can do it...and nothing is stopping you!

    If you want to live in 2013 and beyond,
    and enjoy modern conveniences like --
    Painkillers, Nuclear medicine, chemotherapy, heart and brain surgeries, and AirAmbulances,
    Fire Departments, Police Departments, water, power and sewer,
    Roads, Highways,
    a Global Military,
    and next door neighbors --
    because you are going to be limited and what you can and can't do,
    and you WILL be required to pay taxes for it.

    That's called living in a Civilized Society.

    Go be as free as you want.
    Just don't stay here and think you can do as you please with no restrictions,
    And not pay any taxes for it.
    That's all.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Nov. 12, 2013 2:38 p.m.

    On this subject, as well as on most subjects, we have two choices. We can either sustain the Constitution, which allows the Federal level of government to tax us for and legislate for 17 duties and only seventeen duties, or we can let anyone claim that THEY are the Supreme Law of the Land and that THEY can dictate to all of us what we can allow government to do.

    The Revolutionary War was fought to restrict those who thought themselves above the law, those who thought that they somehow had the right to dictate to the rest of us how we should act and what duties we should pay for.

    The outcome of that war settled the question, once and for all. We, the People, told the government that we, the People, were in charge and that they, the government, were authorized to do only what we, the People, permitted.

    Read the Constitution. Read Article 1, Section 8 until you understand those duties that are authorized to the Federal level of government. All other duties are to be left to the States or to the People. Either we uphold the Constitution or we do not.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Nov. 12, 2013 2:02 p.m.

    To "Semi-Strong" it all depends on how you define pre-existing condition. For example, a pregnancy could be a pre-existing condition, but you could get insurance on the open market because it is not considered a condition that makes you uninsurable. If you call pre-existing conditions as those conditions that make you uninsurable then we have had laws since the mid 1990s that created high risk pools for each state to cover those people. Again, there has been nothing preventing uninsurable people from getting insurance for about 20 or more.

    Even on the open market you could get insurance with a waiting period. Washington State has an article titled "About pre-existing conditions and waiting periods" that explains how insurance companies there could require a 9 month waiting period for pre-existing conditions for individual plans (plans not sponsored by an employer).

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Nov. 12, 2013 1:55 p.m.

    This letter draws a downright offensive comparison between the slavery of East Germany behind the Wall and the representative democracy we live in. If he doesn't like a law, the writer can write, publish, speak, petition his representatives, and run for office if he wants to. He'sw free to try and persuade the rest of us. That wasn't true behind the Berlin Wall. Those things would get you killed. Just because many of his fellow Americans disagree with this writer's agenda does not mean that he lives "behind the Berlin Wall." Grow up, guy.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 12, 2013 1:27 p.m.

    Anti.... I don't believe you for one minute. I am down there all the time visiting one of my clients, PEMEX. The vast majority of people I meet, and have gotten to know through work and church - plus their extended families are not lusting to come to America just to get on welfare. No more so than white Americans do so. There are always those in every crowd.... but to paint the picture that the only reason hispanics come to America is to get on welfare.... good grief - put the propaganda down and go out and meet some real people.

    Your first statement.... well.... duh. People go into politics because they think they have a vision of where they think the country could go. Equally applies to progressives, as it does with the Tea Party. Why do you think Mike Lee ran for office? The Tea Party exist because they want to influence America's direction.... in an Authoritarian way.... meaning their way.

    All you have discovered is the obvious.... to everyone. You have discovered why people run for office.... they think they have a better idea.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Chihiuahua, 00
    Nov. 12, 2013 1:18 p.m.

    The ultimate plan is to turn America into one giant Indian reservation where everybody is dependant on the government for everything and can't get a loan to start a business. Also arrest anybody critical of Obama just like they did to that rodeo clown who was excercising his first amendment and made no threats. It doesn't matter if people agreed with it or not, but the first amendment should always be protected. If someone says something negative about gay marriage, they shouldn't lose their jobs over it. This has happened and this demonstrates a failure to protect free speech and it should be protected whether you agree with it or not. I don't want anybody who wants gun control to be arrested or lose their jobs. This type of thing is how the Wall that the writer refers to, is being built. More than anything else.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Chihiuahua, 00
    Nov. 12, 2013 1:10 p.m.

    Res Novae

    "Here if you don't like something you have the right to organize in opposition to it, petition government leaders"

    Sure just get your permit(which is illegal for them to demand) and pray that the police don't arrest you for excercising your 1st amendment rights when they illegally tell you to leave after a few hours.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Chihiuahua, 00
    Nov. 12, 2013 12:56 p.m.

    The leadership of America is Authoritarian and wants to mold the culture into something they like. Their biggest tool of doing that is through the mass media. Here in Mexico they promote going to America not for opportunity, but for the welfare. They advertise it on Television and Magazines.

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Nov. 12, 2013 12:54 p.m.

    Redshirt 1701,

    Reference pre-existing conditions. Not what I recall. Yes, most larger employer-based insurance programs worked that way but not if you were in the individual market and sometimes not even if you were with a small company. You were just out of luck - period. This became more likely with the severity of the issue.

  • 2 bit Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 12:49 p.m.


    You're Zion Curtain thingy is a valiant effort to deflect this topic and take the discussion down a tangent that is not really a big issue to most people now days. That curtain is coming down gradually and isn't really a big issue now days. So I don't know if you're going to be able to bait many people into lashing out on that one.

    I hope we can stay on topic...

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Nov. 12, 2013 12:36 p.m.

    To "EDM"Prior to the ACA a person with pre-existing conditions was more free to get insurance than they are now.

    Prior to the ACA an much of the regulation that proceeded it a person with pre-existing conditions could get insurance. The only catch was that the insurance company would not pay for the pre-existing condition for 6 to 9 months, depending on the company's policy.

    Now, a person with a pre-existing condition has less freedom. They no longer can choose to buy insurance. They are required by law to have insurance. So, they are less free now under the ACA than they were before.

    To those that don't think there is a problem along the borders, you should read about the TERRORISTS that have been caputred trying to enter. If you don't think there is a problem read the following:

    "Signs in Arizona warn of smuggler dangers" Washington Post

    "SWAT teams dispatched as gun battle unfolds near Escobares" The Monitor

    "Controversial Muslim cleric caught being smuggled into U.S. over Mexico border" in the Daily Mail

  • cavetroll SANDY, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 12:23 p.m.

    Mr. West screams we need less regulations to enjoy more freedom. I'm willing to bet he also supports more regulaitons to enforce his way of life and morals. Mr. West probably has no qualms about abortion restrictions, gay marriage restrictions, alcohol restrictions, etc.

    "Mr, West, tear down this Zion Curtain!"

  • 2 bit Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 12:00 p.m.

    Kent C. DeForrest

    Re: "Why are you not lashing out against right-wing talk radio"...

    I assume he's not lashing out against "right-wing talk radio" because it's not the same thing. Nobody's REQUIRED to listen to "right-wing talk radio"... we are REQUIRED to do what the Government says.

    IF he doesn't want his brain to be controlled by the often vilified "right-wing talk radio"... he can just turn it off and ignore it (like you probably do). We can't do that with Government Regulations, can we?

    So WHY would he lash out? Why would he act like you? He's complaining about government forced beliefs, forced behavior, and regulation in our lives... So WHY would he complain about something he is totally not even required to be involved in? That makes no sense! Why lash out about something... when you can just not listen?

    It's just an illogical juxtaposition.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 12, 2013 11:48 a.m.

    What freedom have you lost... I missed it evidently.

    I think that this is the most ironic and confusing part of the conservative movement. They want to legislate how much you can drink, who you marry, ban you from buying legal medication from far flung dangerous nations like Canada, forbid us from travel to countries like Cuba.... all the while place China on a most favored trading partner list, insist on "christian" values and prayer be taught in schools, consider dollars supporting the poor as "stealing", while funding foreign and distant wars as justifiable, and relieving business from needs to control pollutants.

    The "platform" is all over the place..... freedom of choice - but don't you dare think about buying a beer in a restaurant.

  • Lew Scannon Provo, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 10:21 a.m.

    From my perspective, which includes four months of close encounters with the Berlin Wall and a visit to East Berlin while the Wall of Shame was in place, could I suggest that this letter is as full of asbestos as the Berlin Wall was?

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 10:09 a.m.

    "It is not a physical wall but a wall of rules and regulations that will control how we act and think."

    Obviously, Mr. West, this imaginary wall you mention is not very effective. It certainly does not control how you think. Now, right-wing talk radio, that's another matter altogether. It seems to be exerting great control over your thought processes. Why are you not lashing out against it?

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Nov. 12, 2013 10:06 a.m.

    Let us not forget --

    The North Koreans [like the East Berliners]
    are being told those Walls are there to protect them and
    to keep out illegal immigrants, and drugs, and terrorists.

    Just like Republicans wanting one here...

    But, it really shouldn't come as any sort of surprise --
    The rich always feel a need of fenced communities to feel safe and secure.
    They don't like open societies.

  • Mark B Eureka, CA
    Nov. 12, 2013 9:39 a.m.

    Just for the record, it was citizens of East Germany, not the Soviet Union, who were leaving the country in big enough numbers to justify the building of the Berlin Wall.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 9:39 a.m.

    Yes, allow stores to sell alcohol, legalize marijuana, get rid of speed limits and all other similar restrictions on freedom.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 9:17 a.m.

    Open Minded,
    The irony is... your post was based on a false assumption.
    I can assure you that people entering the United States ARE searched.

    Watch the program "Border Wars" on History Channel if you don't think people ENTERING the United States are searched.

    When you leave all they ask is... who you are, reason for your travel, when you plan to return, are you carrying prohibited items, etc. But I can assure you that people crossing the border INTO the United States are checked too.


    As for government restricting freedom... that's kinda what government means, isn't it? The "Governor" on an engine prevents it from operating outside prescribed limits. A "Governor" or "Government" over the people... serves the same purpose. It restricts the people's behavior to prescribed limits (most of the time for your own good).

    But obviously the bigger government gets.. the more restriction. The more restrictions... the less freedom.

    I have no problem with most regulations, but there are others that I have serious problems with. To resist these restrictions... We must keep the government to a size the people can control.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Nov. 12, 2013 9:04 a.m.

    "I would like to think that I can choose what is best for me and my family and not be told by the government what is best for us."


    I'm sure LGBT families could not agree with you more!

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Nov. 12, 2013 8:27 a.m.

    Res Novae,

    I could not agree more. I am not an Obama supporter, but the incredible hyperbole surrounding any and every action by the current administration is simply astounding.

    Some folks purport to believe that they are living in a dictatorship. During my mission I lived in a dictatorship (and by far not the worst example of one). They clearly have NO idea what they are talking about.

  • EDM Castle Valley, Utah
    Nov. 12, 2013 8:20 a.m.


    Prior to Obamacare, how "free" was a person with a pre-existing condition to obtain health insurance?

    If you really are concerned about government restrictions, you'd do well to follow Open Minded Mormon's advice: Lend your support to women's right to choose and the legalization of same-sex marriage and medical marijuana.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Nov. 12, 2013 7:56 a.m.

    I'm confused.

    The letter writer sounds like a Liberal wanting freedom to choose and less Government control,
    but then whines and complains about Obamacare as being the loss of freedom and more Government control.

    Somehow (and I'm just guessing here)
    I'd bet this letter writer does not support;
    Muslims building an Islamic Cultural Center in New York,
    medical marijuana,
    a woman's right to choose,
    or gay marriage.

    all this rhetoric is more about his wallet,
    than it is about Freedom of Choice.

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 7:03 a.m.

    David West, please enlighten us to what rules and regulations you are being burdened by. Be specific and give us the origins to the said restrictions. I dare say that if you had an ounce of objectivity you would discover your perceptions have more to do with who is administrating our laws rather than what the law is. Besides, since the current crop of Representatives (2011) received their oath, they have not passed a single piece of legislation that has been implemented into law. They have, mind you, cost us 24+ billion $ to shutdown the government.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Nov. 12, 2013 5:50 a.m.

    Picking an choosing Mr West?

    Isn't any law equal to some level of government telling you what you can do?
    Don't speed limits make us safer? Doesn't food labeling help you make smarter decisions?

    Govt forces you and your children to be vaccinated. Do you not see the social benefit to that?

    We can all find laws and regulations that we disagree with. Some are outright idiotic.

    But as a whole, they improve society.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 12, 2013 5:40 a.m.

    Ok, Mr. West, I choose to have NASCAR races in front of your kids' school, open a battery recycling business upstream from your water supply, operate a medical waste incinerator upwind of you, sell botulism-saturated vegetables to your local grocery store and open an outdoor shooting range next door to you.

    Thank you for supporting all of my freedoms.

  • Res Novae Ashburn, VA
    Nov. 12, 2013 5:02 a.m.

    It's absurd hyperbole to compare an oppressive regime like East Germany to regulations of insurance, food content, and school lunches in this country. Here if you don't like something you have the right to organize in opposition to it, petition government leaders, and make your argument at the ballot box (and accept the possibility that you'll lose, which is something that certain folks are still working on). East Germans faced the possibility of blacklisting, imprisonment, exile, or death for their opposition.

    To compare the two demonstrates a lack of understanding of what true state tyranny and repression look like and causes one to lose all credibility.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Nov. 12, 2013 2:10 a.m.

    It seems that our government has and is continuing to build up the Berlin Wall here in the U.S. It is not a physical wall...


    Umm, yes it is...

    The letter writer easily forgets (or is ignorant of the fact),
    that "The Wall" was built, and the citizens were told, that it was to protect them from illegal immigrants.

    Republicans and Tea-Partiers are doing the same thing to us.
    And yes, it is a physical wall.

    BTW -- Before GW Bush,
    My family and I would visit Canada regularly,
    Now, you must have your papers, please - comrade.
    Same thing with Mexico.

    And the irony is you are searched LEAVING the United States,
    not when you are re-entering.