Everyone is jumping the gun on this loyalty stuff, wait until the deadline is
over. By the way I didn't hear much about lack of loyalty when Paul Milsap
accepted a front loaded contract with Portland which was totally designed to
keep the Jazz from being able to match.
Ladies and gents, I have read my comments and your opposing views and I do feel
many of you do make a stronger argument that I do about Haywards deal. I think
it is too much in this day and age to expect players to be loyal to a team, and
especially a small market team when other teams can offer more incentives. I
guess Stockton and Malone spoiled me by making me think great players will stay
with the team that drafted them if you treat them fairly. ( I know Malone left
his last year but his playing days were really over and with Stockton retiring I
didn't blame Karl for going to Hollywood for his last year). Anyway, kudos
to you all and I hope the best for the Jazz and Hayward what ever direction they
go. As far as who should be loyal to the Jazz, I'll remain loyal to them
thick or thin but unfortunately I can't dunk the ball or hit a high
percentage from the arc.
To be honest...the only thing that makes Hayward valuable...is that...there is a
scarcity in SG/SF position in the league...that plays both ends of the floor...i
am pretty sure a few GMs are lining up...for the possibility of acquiring
Hayward...who'll i think we'll be a good 2nd or third option on a team
with a legit scoring star...but i don't think Hayward is involved with the
negotiations...and he let his Agent do the talking...which is technically
fine...because that's what an agent is supposed to do....but...he should
have reached out to his agent and said...look...i want to be in this team...and
whatever they offer....i'll take it...anyways...if we don't get
him...and we land the Number 1 or 2 pick on the draft...i don't think
it'll be an issue...we would get either Wiggins or Parker...Burks would be
the starting 2....
I dont think its fair to Hayward....that he is at fault here...i think its his
agent that wanted the bigger deal....this is why i dont really like sports
agents....they feed useless things inside their players heads...
A losing culture also means articles published with relatively few post on the
message boards. If you use the message boards as a metric, Jazz fans are much
more excited about Fredette's activity in Sacramento and Davies in
Philadelphia than they are about the home team. Routinely I see Jazz articles
with half a dozen or fewer comments while these spurious NBA articles about home
town heroes have dozens of comments.That, my friends, is an
indication of a losing culture.
ThomasJefferson: You don't get it, do you. Why do you think LeBron left
Cleveland? Because he wasn't doing his job ? Because he wasn't trying
as hard as he could to win a championship? Or was it because he could see that
Cleveland was not committed to winning a championship? Same is true for Chris
Paul and many other free agents.Money (including endorsement
opportunities) is almost always the first consideration. But when they have two
fairly balanced offers between a team with a winning tradition vs a team with a
losing tradition, they will go with the winners almost every time.Sure, there are some secondary considerations such as:- Playing time
(who already plays their position on those teams)- Location- Arena
or travel conditions- etcBut the chance to win is second to
money in almost every case.Please tell me you recognize that and
were just being facetious in your comments.
The Spurs find guys with Hayward's skill set at a fraction of the price he
is searching for. Danny Green is not a franchise guy but is a "D" and
"3" guy. He makes $4 million/year. Perfect complimentary piece type of
player that is needed on a championship team. Which I think Hayward would be. If
we got one of the studs coming out of the upcoming draft as the franchise guy,
and then had Favors and Hayward locked up long term at reasonable prices the
Jazz could make some major noise.
All this talk of loyalty is silliness. It just really doesn't exist
anymore in todays NBA.These players have a relative short window to
earn a lifetime of income and regardless of where we all are in life not to many
of us walk away from money that you can get if you are doing the same work
either way.Stop acting like the NBA is some liberal utopian fantasy.
These guys are here to earn all they can while they can because most of them
are done in their mid-to late 30's.It is pure naivete' to
ask Hayward to take less than the market is willing to pay him. There is
little doubt given the obscene money that similar type players are
getting/already have gotten that he won't get a deal either from us/another
team that people deem too much. The market dictates.I would not be
surprised to see the Jazz wait to see what free agency offers he gets.Hayward is NOT going to put up obscene stats this year. He is going to
struggle because this team is inexperienced and bad.Try and sell
that for a "max" deal Hayward.
@Americanvet"I still ask, where is Hayward's loyalty to the
team that drafted him?"Let me ask, are you still working for the
same organization that gave you your first job? If not, then where is your
loyalty to the team that drafted you?Bottom line is we all move on.
And if the Jazz don't want Hayward to move on, they're going to have
to overpay him. That's what happens when you have the league's worst
ownership, worst fans, and you're in a city/state NBA players don't
want to live in.
re:Coleman51What player are you watching? Haywards defense is
better than most. Do you realize his block % is just minimally below LeBron
James statistically? His chase down blocks from behind are a thing of beauty.
Offensively IS where he lacks. I don't believe he will be the guy who can
carry "the load" every night. He is however a very good well-rounded
player who will get big money.All that being said everyone needs to
remember. The NBA is filled with bad GMs who constantly overpay for players and
the market is not necessarily what a player is worth but rather what some fool
will pay and there are always a few willing to ruin the scale and overpay.Ultimately that makes Hayward likely to get more than he is truly worth.
Whether the Jazz can successfully manage that down to a livable amount remains
to be seen.Hayward has no swagger or a superstars confidence. He
will never be "the guy". He is a 2nd/3rd player option you would love
to have however he is not Paul George but his agents job is to extract every
dime he can. Tick-tock.
Americanvet: There is a world of difference between "not being able to
guarantee a player will win a title" and "guaranteeing he won't win
a title." I really hope you can see that. I agree that nobody can guarantee
a player can win a title but there are a lot of teams that can guarantee that
their players will not win a title. And there are a handful that can guarantee
their teams won't make the playoffs. Bobcats are one of those. This year
the Jazz are one of those.That "losing culture" is
insidious. A team can fool itself into thinking it is rebuilding and then five
years down the road discover that good players, if they can get them through the
draft or trade, will find a way out as soon as possible. At that point, it is
almost impossible to pull yourself out of the hole you dug yourself into.
@joe5"why should Hayward be loyal to a team that guarantees he
won't win a title". That's ridiculous. No team can guarantee a
player that they will win a title and the fact is most players in the league
play their whole career without ever being on a team that wins a title. You say
the Jazz should be loyal to Hayward by trying to field a competitive team and
that is exactly what they are trying to do. It is hard to build a competitive
team however when the young players you're trying to build around are
holding you for ransom and demanding more than they are worth. If Hayward would
except a reasonable salary, and were talking about millions of dollars a year,
that would leave the Jazz the flexibility to add the players to build a
competitive team. Plus, the Jazz took Hayward 9th in the draft which was higher
than he was expected to go. That rewarded him a bigger salary right from his
rookie year because the Jazz were willing to take a chance on him. I still ask,
where is Hayward's loyalty to the team that drafted him?
First Paul George is over-payed. He shouldn't have gotten that much money,
and Hayward should not either. I highly doubt that the negotiations are that
far apart however. From looking at other contracts around the league, Hayward
is clearly worth around $12M per year, $14M is too much. The $7-9 that fans are
hoping for is just not going to happen. Hayward is already better than that
and there is a huge market for him.Harden $13.7 (a bargain)Josh Smith $13.5Ben Gordon $13.2Andre Igoudala $12.8Hedo
Turkoglu $12Nicolas Batum $11.2Richard Jefferson $11Danilo
Gallinari $10Geral Wallace $10Stephan Jackson $10DeMar DeRozan
He hasn't been doing as well in the Starcraft tourneys of late.
So it seems my worst projections are already starting to prove themselves. The
Jazz are locking themselves into Clipper and Bobcat mode, perpetually building
but never getting there. They're well on their way of establishing a losing
culture. And who wants to play for a team with a losing culture? Nobody.I laugh at the comments about Hayward's loyalty. Why should he be
loyal to a team that guarantees he won't win a title and virtually
guarantees he won't make the playoffs? Who wants to get beat 50-60 nights a
year? Maybe if the Jazz were loyal to Hayward by fielding a competitive team,
Hayward would return that loyalty.Several times during the summer, I
offered to bet $1000 that the Jazz would not appear in the NBA finals while
Hayward and Favors were still on the team. And this was one of my primary
arguments. Losing culture does not retain good players. By the way, nobody was
willing to accept my bet, even the most outspoken in support of the Jazz'
current direction.BTW, those saying not to pay Hayward eight figures
know very little about basketball.
I love this kids game. I also think he is a solid team-mate, good club-house
guy etc. However, you can't pay him more than Favors. Favors will be more
valuable to our success and deserved the risk taken by management. Haywood is
not as good as George and even if he is and an argument can be made that he is,
why should the Jazz make the same mistake as Indiana and drastically overpay?
We got ourselves in trouble worrying about matching offers and losing above
average players during the last 8 years. We need financial flexbility to build
a champtionship caliber team in a small market like SLC. Let's build inside
out and if Hayward is going to be part of it then he needs to do it at $10M or
less a season. If not, send him to Boston now and let's get some draft
picks and a player or two. My goodness kid, how much money does a single guy
need? You have a while before you pull the "I need to feed my family"
Are we going to see a new Toyota dealership show up on Auto Mall Road? Comer get
your next Tundra at Gordon Hayward Toyota! You'll find us right next to
Karl Malone Toyota and a block away from Stoctkton Honda in Sandy.
He lost too many games last year with late game turnovers. NOT worth the money.
Let him play the season and then make an offer.
Interesting comments here....Here are a fews comments on the comments:There's a lot more to the game of basketball than making shots; and
though Hayward makes his share, his areas of expertise are passing, running the
floor, and defense.If the Jazz choose to let this negotiation go to
restricted free agency, they can kiss Hayward goodbye, because they'll
never match the offers the kid will get.Finally, and most
important....Hayward isn't negotiating anything. He's just playing
basketball...He has an agent like all the pros have. The agent determines what
he thinks the player is worth, and he is the one who negotiates....There's
is no place here for questions like "how much does Hayward think he is
I generally agree with the comments above. However, my concern about Hayward is
not on the offensive end of the court. While one can question his ability to
penetrate the lane and his consistency in shooting, I think the biggest
liability for Hayward is his defensive game. He offers virtually nothing in
stopping larger players (which in this league there are a lot of them) and
isn't really fast enough to be a perimeter defender. Hayward gets a lot of
hustle point to his credit, but there are too many players in this league that
are bigger and quicker for him to receive and "elite" contract. I would
be generous and give him $30 million but a contract above Favors who is an elite
athlete would be asking way too much for his skill set. Another scenario that
could play out is for the Jazz to receive a top five draft pick this season and
pick a small forward that could more than make up anything we lose with having
Hayward leave. He also provides us with some high quality trade options as well.
Let him go. He has shown us that he is NOT worth big money.
He is a good player but he is not going to blossom as a superstar! he's
playing for the wrong coach. Too bad Paul George blossom into a superstar ahead
Come on Lindsey, PLEASE don't pay this kid. I agree that he should not get
more than 7-9 million. Teams are bad when they sign these average and
inconsistent players to huge deals when they've never proved they can put a
team on their back and lead them into the post season.
You guys are right on! Unless Hayward can prove he can hit the mid jumper that
he's missed for two seasons, he isn't worth what he thinks. I thought
this guy was different.
I am sure he is looking for the same deal as Indiana gave George. He isn't
close to being a max player. I'm sure he would want to be in Boston with
his college coach. Trade him and let Boston overpay.
If the Jazz are offering Hayward more than Favors deal as reported, and yet they
are still far apart, how much does Hayward think he is worth? He is good but I
thought he was more the simple country boy type and here he is acting like a
selfish rock star. Show a little loyalty Hayward and work with the Jazz to get
this deal done. It's frustrating to see these NBA players hold their teams
for ransom, and especially the small market teams because everyone wants to play
in the big city. Kirilenko left a ton of money sitting on the table to play for
the Nets this year so he could play in the bright lights and try to win a
championship for himself. Meanwhile Minnesota now has a more difficult time
building their team because an important piece wanted to play in a big market.
It's just frustrating, and I hoped Hayward had a little more class than
hmmmm....now that i think of it...i would've offered a 5-7M range...9M is
I like Hayward's game a lot...it doesnt scream superstar...but being pesky
on D...being able to shoot and pass and making teammates involve...not being a
me first player...is good...However....i won't pay him huge bucks...7-9M
range should do....why? he hasn't been as efficient during the
pre-season...plus a number of teams would probably look to overpay him...so if
the Jazz waited for free agency...im not sure they'll be able to
match...the guy right now is a solid 2nd or 3rd option...this year is his year
to prove that he can be an all-star and that's a lot of pressure...and i
think during the pre-season...he tried to do a little too much...instead of
letting the game come to him...if the Jazz signed him...great...if
not...there's always wiggins and/or Jabari Parker...and Alec burks could
move up to number 2...and i have this weird feeling...that Neto would eventually
be better than Trey Burke...