Boy Scouts remove 'God' from oath in UK, welcome atheists to the ranks

Return To Article
Add a comment
  • Brian Westley St. Paul, MN
    March 22, 2014 7:29 p.m.

    "Remember when science said that the earth revolved around the moon?"

    No, because "science" never said that.

    "Scientific theories are just that - theories"

    Yep, theories - models that explain known facts and make predictions.

    Religious myths are just that - myths.

  • Mushi cincinnati, OH
    Oct. 24, 2013 10:16 a.m.

    Some these comments about only believing science and not god are ridiculous.

    Remember when science said that the earth revolved around the moon? Scientific theories are just that - theories. To put absolute faith in scienctific theories (ie big bang) and none in god is unwise.

  • MiP Iowa City, IA
    Oct. 14, 2013 9:55 p.m.

    On the flip side, this could be a chance for those scouts who do believe in God to provide a positive example and experience to the children of unbelievers. You never know, they may end up becoming believers.

    Not that I'm advocating that the scouts do that in the states, just that if you're dealt a blow you can either run and hide, withdrawing support and going into a bubble, or you can step up and realize this could be an opportunity for the faithless to receive some light and knowledge. You may not help all of them, but you might help one.

  • NotAnOffensiveName Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 14, 2013 6:29 p.m.


    1) "How was life created in the first place"

    Your question is a little flawed. "Created" assumes a creator and the question answers itself.

    If you haven't studied abiogenesis, it's a good place to start. Let's be fair and say that we've only begun learning. More answers will come.

    2) "Why do humans have a conscience?"

    It's a beneficial trait that reinforced as we developed. Beyond that, you're assuming a purpose.

    3) "How was the earth is perfectly designed to support the millions of forms of life?"

    Again, the question is flawed in assuming a designer.

    We should expect our environment to support the life that's here.

    People often think of your question in terms of odds. What are the odds this could happen without a designer? Next time you walk outside, take note of the first licence plate you see. The odds of you seeing that exact combination of letters and numbers is extraordinarily unlikely. Then consider the next license plate, the odds of those two consecutively are unimaginable! Yet it just happened.

    Life, happens.

    Ultimately, God's are divisive and threaten social cohesion. Good for you BSA!

  • rauls4 wheaton, IL
    Oct. 14, 2013 4:35 p.m.

    Wonderful news! This needs to happen in the USA.

  • TheProudDuck Newport Beach, CA
    Oct. 14, 2013 3:02 p.m.

    Lord Baden-Powell called. He thinks you Brit Scouters are a bunch of pansies, who wouldn't last five minutes on the veldt.

  • Fortress Salt Lake, UT
    Oct. 13, 2013 1:36 p.m.

    Gasp! If they change the oath much more they'll find the magic words that make the world explode! Seriously I'd say let's just get rid of the thing. There are certainly much more effective ways to get into the spirit of scouting than to recite a boring and over-generalized collection of platitudes. Is this about the form or the function here?

  • Boy Scout South Jordan, UT
    Oct. 12, 2013 4:12 p.m.

    @The Scientist, I think you are trying to pick a fight with Bingham HS Student, but what you said is brilliant. I agree with that "convert" People just need to accept each other as they are, and if they want someone to change, just be an example, but don't try to force it onto them, and hope they change on their own. I am a mormon, and this is very similar to how I think. I am still planning on going on a mission, where I will be trying hard to convert people, or "invite all to come unto Christ." But while I am at home, I think that the best way to follow our prophet's council "every member a missionary" is to just be an example, and hope that people you want to "convert" come up to you. Now there are exceptions to my philosophy of course, but in general, this is the safest way to do so without offending anyone.

  • pleasantgrove PLEASANT GROVE, UT
    Oct. 12, 2013 3:41 p.m.

    You don't get either of my points. The church has adopted a man made organization. Why? If a boy wants to be in a scout group go for it, but don't make it part of the lds religion. It's the only man made organization in a church that could easily set up its own inspired ym program.
    My other point is, Scouting is only one of thousands of self help/service groups, and we obviously aren't going to join them all or make them all part of the church. Simplify stupid. Get scouting out of religion, we have plenty of other better things to do.

  • The Scientist Provo, UT
    Oct. 12, 2013 2:42 p.m.

    Whenever you "try to convert" us, you are condescendingly treating us as inferior creatures who are not acceptable as we are, and you are relating to us as a salesman relates to a "mark" (or a predator relates to prey) rather than as real, equal human beings should relate to one another. As such, your way of being is fundamentally insincere, dishonest, and unethical.

    Stop trying to "convert" others! Live and exude your way of life with genuine openness to the reality of others and their fundamental "acceptability" as they are. If they feel a desire to change by virtue of your presence (not your preachiness) in their lives, then they will do so.

    Why is that so hard to understand?

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    Oct. 12, 2013 12:52 p.m.

    @pleasantgrove --

    "Why not join every secularist club so that we can help them?"

    Go for it. You might actually learn something.


  • Bingham High School Student South Jordan, UT, UT
    Oct. 12, 2013 12:51 p.m.

    pleasnatgrove, go for it, but it seems like too much work for me. If you decide to use the argument that they won't let us join because we are Christian therefore we should not let them join BSA, then you have failed to look at the whole picture. A Christ-like person would look beyond whether someone does not let you into their club, and treat them in a kind and non-judging manner, while being a good influence, and accepting them the way they are. Yet a Christ like person would also try to convert them, but if this person asked us to stop trying to convert them, a Christ-like person would still treat them lovingly, and respectfully

  • pleasantgrove PLEASANT GROVE, UT
    Oct. 12, 2013 12:09 p.m.

    Why not join every secularist club so that we can help them?

  • Bingham High School Student South Jordan, UT, UT
    Oct. 12, 2013 12:08 p.m.

    "Scouting exists to actively engage and support young people in their personal development, empowering them to make a positive contribution to society."(http:// /fundamentals /?pageid=2944)
    No where does it say that it is only for Christians, Secularists should get an equal opportunity to benefit from scouting as the religious. Because that is what scouting is about--bieng a positive influence.

    To those of you who think it is a bad idea to allow Atheists into the BSA (Most of you are LDS, or wouldn't be on Deseret News in the faith section. I am LDS also) is this not a perfect opportunity for missionary work? Every member a missionary right?

  • Bingham High School Student South Jordan, UT, UT
    Oct. 12, 2013 11:55 a.m.

    Guys, I am a boy scout, and I think this change is a great idea. It does not say that this is the only way of saying the British Scout Oath, It Says that it is an ALTERNATE way of saying the oath. "Scouting officials in the U.K. said the Scout Promise has been altered before to accommodate Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and non-citizens who are not subjects of the queen." You do not seem to be mad that the Muslims, Hindu's, and Buddhists got exceptions.

    I can not believe that you people are so immature so as to think that the boy scouts is only for Christian or Religious people. IT actually says in the Scout Oath "To help other people" and allowing secularists to join can help them.

  • pleasantgrove PLEASANT GROVE, UT
    Oct. 12, 2013 10:04 a.m.

    Lets try this again. I wonder why my comments haven't shown up yet. Just curious.

    I am amazed that the lds church continues to support and treat scouting like its part of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Its the only program I know of in the church that wasn't a restored principle or inspired by the church leaders. Why do we continue to spend so much time, money and energy with this secular organization? Half the church doesn't even have a scout program. Why not get out of this scout tradition and create an inspired program for the young men. Oh wait there already is one-the priesthood and duty to God.

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    Oct. 12, 2013 9:16 a.m.

    @sukiy --

    "I can assure you that the position of morality held by BS is NOT that of say Justin Bieber or Miley Cyres."

    Justin Bieber has loudly declared his Christian devotion many times over the years. He was raised by conservative Christian evangelicals and is born again.

    Miley Cyrus was raised Southern Baptist. She was known in recent years for wearing a "purity ring" as a sign of her faith.

    She has said that her faith keeps her "grounded" and affirmed her desire to follow Jesus. "Live like Christ and He'll live in you, and that's what I want to do".

    In other words, being Christian isn't the same thing as being moral.

    Not by a long shot.

  • sg newhall, CA
    Oct. 12, 2013 9:09 a.m.

    Despicable decision. Removing God is exactly what the opposition wants. To accommodate atheists but ignore Christians is ridiculous.

  • sukiyhtaky us, CA
    Oct. 12, 2013 7:29 a.m.

    I think it is crazy always asking groups which do the most good to "evolve" away from what gave them their strength in the first place. There is always going to be somebody who doesn't like something about any given group, but that shouldn't necessitate change. I agree the solution is for them to start their own groups and quit expecting others to drop their beliefs for yours. What will change next? I can assure you that the position of morality held by BS is NOT that of say Justin Bieber or Miley Cyres. So do we now forct them to "evolve" to include those whose standards are much lower? We are slowly evolving away from what made us strong. To those who argue that it merely reflects scientific thought, I would counter that what was 'scientific fact' in the earlier centuries is laughable today and what is "scientific fact" today will be laughable in 100 years. Atheists/secularists need to quit worrying about others "evolving" to their points of view and get out and do some actual good in the world like the groups they seek to change do.

  • jskains Orem, UT
    Oct. 12, 2013 3:07 a.m.


    If atheists had a hall to meet and socialize in, likely sitting around and bashing on religion would be their preferred social activity.

  • A Guy With A Brain Enid, OK
    Oct. 12, 2013 1:10 a.m.

    Anybody else ready for the Lord to come and solve this mess?...this cesspool of evil, stupidity, cowardice and immorality called "life on earth"?

    I am....

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2013 3:20 p.m.

    "Thanks for that amazing insight mark"

    Hey, your welcome, Rico!

    Oh wait, you're being sarcastic, aren't you. Silly you.

    I suppose you wanted me to go into more detail in my responses. (But, of course, what you aren't taking into account is that the claims I am replying to went into no detail themselves. For instance, saying this country was founded on Christian principles with a united believe in Christ, is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim itself, so really it deserves nothing more then the response I gave, which was: no it wasn't. But, nonetheless, this claim has been debated many times here and in other places, and it has been shown to be wrong every time. I would be happy to provide you with the quotes from the founders, as I have many times before, alas, I think this may be my last post. And the claims made about evolution were presented with just as little substance as the claim on Christianity, and have been addressed in detail elsewhere also, so again, they really deserve no more of a response then I gave them.)

  • Spider Rico Greeley, CO
    Oct. 11, 2013 1:17 p.m.

    Thanks for that amazing insight mark

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Oct. 11, 2013 8:43 a.m.

    @1978 --

    "The idea that organization can come from chaos -- without a superior force directing that effort - in is direct contradiction to the Second Law of Thermodynamics."

    You appear to be misinterpreting what that "superior force" needs to be.

    For example, for decades scientists have been able to create amino acids and other organic compounds, including DNA nucleobases, de novo in a test tube, by using raw ingredients resembling the "primordial stew" and adding electricity. So your "superior force" doesn't necessarily mean a Superior Being.

    Unless you believe that electricity is God?

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 11:35 p.m.

    "Evolution cannot answer the basic question of how life was formed because it is a mathematical impossibility."

    No it's not, 1978.

    "The idea that organization can come from chaos – without a superior force directing that effort - in is direct contradiction to the Second Law of Thermodynamics."

    Oh. . . You're one of those.

    But you're still wrong.

    "America WAS founded on Christian principles with a united belief in Jesus Christ "

    Oh my gosh, that is just so false.

  • Spellman789 Syracuse, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 9:28 p.m.

    Why can you only 'like" a comment, but "not like" a comment?

  • bandersen Saint George, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 9:10 p.m.

    the Boy Scouts, started in England by lord Baden Powell to honor God, must be rolling over in his grave. Without god, scouting is nothing but an outdoor adventure group.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 8:48 p.m.

    My LDS faith teaches that America will ONLY continue to be a land of liberty and freedom so long as they (as a majority) accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. When America rejects God (as a majority) America will lose its economic freedom, its liberty and its sovereignty. The prophet Mormon watched his people destroyed by the Lamanites after they "rejected that Jesus who stood with open arms to receive them". America WAS founded on Christian principles with a united belief in Jesus Christ and also a tolerance to allow others to worship God according to the dictates of their own conscious. Today the atheistic forces of political progressivism are firmly entrenched in our government starting with the White House and this plague is spreading like locusts from state to our schools, in our governments and yes within the boy scouts and other youth organizations. You can scoff if you want - but at least do it after educating yourself with other socialist and communist states and their sad history. The ROOT of their fall was ATHEISM.

  • Rocket Science Brigham City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 8:40 p.m.

    The existence of God cannot be proven nor dis-proven, faith is what is needed for a belief in God. Those who belittle and demean those of faith and then call them bigots ought to look in the mirror. I have known and worked with some of the top rocket scientists in the world, most of whom believe in God and Jesus Christ, even though they have tremendous intellect they also have a simple humble faith.

    Happy Valley, I am truly sorry that you were so involved but missed the whole purpose of scouting movement. It was not founded to prepare soldiers but did use the methods of scouting to excite young men to do their Duty to God in the laboratory of the great outdoors with adventurous activities. The methods of Scouting are a means to an end. Duty to God, patriotism, respect for others and development of self.

    "No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have a religion....Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and Serve God. Second: Love and serve your neighbour." - (Lord Baden Powell, Scouting For Boys, 1908)

  • 1978 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 7:05 p.m.

    This will be my last post on this article because I am heading out of town in the next few minutes.

    Let me summarize: Evolution as an answer to the basic question of how everything came to be from unorganized matter is a myth that is not supported by science when objectively looking at the facts and conclusions. Evolution as an answer to how species adapt, change and survive is totally valid.

    Evolution cannot answer the basic question of how life was formed because it is a mathematical impossibility. None of the unnamed books that have been listed can prove otherwise.
    The idea that organization can come from chaos – without a superior force directing that effort - in is direct contradiction to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

    BTW real scientists may not know about books on evolution but they do know and understand basic laws of physics, mathematical probabilities and thermodynamics, etc.

    In conclusion if someone wants to belief in evolution because it fits their lifestyle and educational philosophy that is fine with me. However to state that it is a scientific fact as some have insinuated is completed false. It is a myth masquerading as a theory.

  • Reno Cougs Fan 68 Reno, NV
    Oct. 10, 2013 5:21 p.m.

    If I as a God fearing and respecting person were to go to an atheist group or meeting and start demanding they change what they teach or belief so I can attend and feel comfortable in the group how would they respond? The world wide Boy Scout organization is built on faith and religions of all kinds not just Christian!!! Faith and belief in a Supreme Being is the foundation of the group!!! I hope that BSA will not follow in this path or the LDS church will withdraw its support of this fine program!!!

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 4:36 p.m.

    "How was life created in the first place (meaning DNA molecules being formed etc.)?

    Why do humans have a conscience?

    How was the earth is perfectly designed to support the millions of forms of life?

    As someone with a graduate degree in a scientific field I am geniunely curious about your response. I could list many other questions but these will suffice for now."

    1978, you claim to have a degree in a scientific field and yet you ask those questions like they actually mean something. I assume you are asking them to show that a God must exist (if not please clarify your point).

    But if you really have a degree in a scientific field one would think you would understand that there are many question that science has not answered (nor, indeed, may ever answer), and yet all that means is there are many question science hasn't answered. It does not point in anyway towards a "God" as default.

  • dLange Los Gatos, CA
    Oct. 10, 2013 4:00 p.m.

    I do not see the problem with this change in UK scouting. I was a Boy Scout in an LDS troop, and got zero religion from my scouting experience. My religion came from my family and church. We had non-members who were atheists, and attended our troop because they liked the scout activities and teachings of scouting, which were secular.

  • Spider Rico Greeley, CO
    Oct. 10, 2013 3:58 p.m.

    There are more holes in the theory of evolution than it would take to fill the Albert Hall. The more science I learn and understand the more my faith is bolstered. God made an infinitely complex universe and one can see His hand in the most minute particle of matter.

  • The Scientist Provo, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 3:39 p.m.

    SCfan wrote:

    "...prophets in scripture knew much more about the universe, than science did back in the days when the earth was flat, or the sun revolved around the earth, was the best science of the day. I'm referring to the Pearl of Great Price."

    IF prophets did know much more about the universe than science, they sure failed to leave any evidence of such knowledge. And the evidence they did leave in scripture (including the PofGP) is seriously flawed.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 10, 2013 3:29 p.m.

    @1978 – “So your answer to questions 1, 2 & 3 are: I don't know… Thank You for your response.”

    Sure… what’s your point?

    And can we assume by your lack of response to my two questions that you agree with the answers and that our best course of action for pursuing the answers to those questions is through science and not religion?

    @SCfan – “…prove to us is that "something" can come from "nothing" and I will believe in evolution and give up this belief in a prime mover.

    You missed the point – which was not that science has all the answers, but rather what is our best means of attaining knowledge about the natural world. So far, science is ahead of religion by about a million to zero, but who knows what the future holds… maybe religion is due for a rally.

    And real science (i.e., testable hypotheses, predictions, open to falsification) is only about 400 years old. Prior to that and with few exceptions (e.g., bits of Aristotle) it was all just speculations, much of it with lots of religious & superstitious overtones.

    Reached comment limit…

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 3:04 p.m.

    Saying it's magic or a God did it, is not a rebuttal to science as to why something exists, it's just lazy.

    Religion has always feared science, nothing new, except they aren't aloud to kill them anymore.

  • Candide Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 2:49 p.m.

    To 1978
    Answers for you
    1. Evolution-There are several books out there. If you really know science I know you can find them.

    2. Evolution-A conscience could be described as moral behavior. Humans are not the only ones with moral behavior. Moral behavior is an evolutionary advantage for the survival of the group. An example would be the work of Frans de Waal and the morality of animals.

    3. I will quote Douglas Adams for this one "Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in —fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!" This is what some humans believe about their world. It wasn't made for us, we just evolved to fit it like every other species on Earth.

  • SCfan clearfield, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 1:37 p.m.

    Tyler D

    You must not realize that prophets in scripture knew much more about the universe, than science did back in the days when the earth was flat, or the sun revolved around the earth, was the best science of the day. I'm referring to the Pearl of Great Price.

    And while we are at it. All you need to prove to us is that "something" can come from "nothing" and I will believe in evolution and give up this belief in a prime mover. You and I both know that until that "unprovable" theory is proven, you evolutionists are pretty well stuck as to explain the of existance of any kind of matter at all.

  • bandersen Saint George, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 1:35 p.m.

    And what may I ask is a 'spiritual life?' Hitler thought he was spiritual, and the humanists (an oxymoron if there ever was one)will never explain what that means because they haven't a clue as to what it means. Whatever they say can only be construed as prejudice against those who have a different view. When you can't find an answer or a definition, doesn't that say something about your educational level, or at minimum, your prejudice, bias, and bigotry?

  • arand Huntsville, u
    Oct. 10, 2013 1:10 p.m.

    It could actually work out OK, because when these kids see how things in life actually work, they might start believing in a Power Greater than themselves. I just call that Power God.

  • dbrbmw Orem, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 12:55 p.m.

    Thank you BSA. I no longer feel like I have to give to nor will I give to "Friends of Scouting".

  • 1978 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 12:50 p.m.

    @Tyler D

    So your answer to questions 1, 2 & 3 are:

    I don't know

    I don't know

    I don't know

    Thank You for your response.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 12:38 p.m.

    I'm and Eagle Scout with 6 palms. I've worked at scout camps in Utah and Catalina Island for years. Religion really is a side note, Not the main attraction to scouting. Do folks really believe that another church meeting to preach religion is attracting young men?

    Camping, exploring, learning skills and games and socializing is why scouts have existed so long.

  • UtahBruin Saratoga Springs, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 12:34 p.m.

    "We must never give up. We must not become discouraged. We must never surrender to the forces of evil. We can and must maintain the standards for which this Church has stood since it was organized. There is a better way than the way of the world. If it means standing alone, we must do it. But we shall not be alone. I am confident that there are millions of people throughout the world who grieve over the evil they see about them. They love the virtuous, the good, and the uplifting. They too will raise their voices and give of their strength to the preservation of those values which are worthy of maintenance and cultivation." ~ Gordan B. Hinckley 1-10-2004

    I know this mentions the LDS Church, but it is the standards of the church that this quote refers too. Yeah, not quite sure I would argue this.

    Does principal, character, values, moral value mean anything to anyone anymore? This WORLD was created and built on principals,character and moral value. Atheist can not say they were built on the same thing, because Atheism was built on negative teachings. You can't argue that point.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 12:31 p.m.

    20 years later he may have said that, but that's NOT how or why it started.

    In 1900, Baden-Powell became a national hero in Britain for his 217-day defense of Mafeking in the South African War. Soon after, Aids to Scouting, a military field manual he had written for British soldiers in 1899, caught on with a younger audience. Boys loved the lessons on tracking and observation and organized elaborate games using the book. Hearing this, Baden-Powell decided to write a nonmilitary field manual for adolescents that would also emphasize the importance of morality and good deeds.

    First, however, he decided to try out some of his ideas on an actual group of boys. On July 25, 1907, he took a diverse group of 21 adolescents to Brownsea Island in Dorsetshire where they set up camp for a fortnight. With the aid of other instructors, he taught the boys about camping, observation, deduction, woodcraft, boating, lifesaving, patriotism, and chivalry. Many of these lessons were learned through inventive games that were very popular with the boys. The first Boy Scouts meeting was a great success.

  • Rocket Science Brigham City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 12:15 p.m.

    Happy Valley, I respectifully correct your view. The Boy Scout Movement Lord Baden Powell began was not to prepare young men for military but rahter to prepare young men to me jesus Christ at his coming. You can say that is a myth or whatever but the very basis of Boys Scouts was and is religion. As they abandon that base in GB Boys Scout will begin to crumble. I feel sorry for the young men and boys of Great Britan - the birth Place of the greatest youth movement the world has known.

    Please consider the approach reflected in Robert Baden-Powell’s vision of Scouting. “There is no religious side to the movement,” he declared in 1920. “The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realisation and service of God.”

  • DistantThunder Vincentown, NJ
    Oct. 10, 2013 12:07 p.m.

    Are the Scouts becoming anti-science? Because there is science which proves the existence of God. Nuclear physicist, Dr. Gerald Schroeder, retired MIT professor, has written several books on the proof of God:

    "The Science of God: The Convergence of Science and Biblical Wisdom"

    "The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth."

    "God According to God: A Scientist Discovers We've Been Wrong About God All Along."

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    Oct. 10, 2013 12:02 p.m.

    @Bleed Crimson ... I was being facetious. In truth, I entirely agree with you. Removing references to God will have only negative consequences, as indeed we see happening now.

  • gittalopctbi Glendale, AZ
    Oct. 10, 2013 11:51 a.m.

    @Bleed Crimson and to any others that read Moontan's comment--he was being very (hilariously IMO) sarcastic!

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 10, 2013 11:50 a.m.

    @1978 – “As someone with a graduate degree in a scientific field I am geniunely curious about your response.

    I have never heard a scientist claim that science is all done and we now have all the answers.

    So the more interesting question is, “what’s wrong with simply saying I don’t know?”
    Is it your contention that you know how all this was done, or at least the “Being” responsible for it (assuming one is needed, which is doubtful given our knowledge of evolutionary biology)?

    And here are a couple questions that I think puts this topic in better perspective:

    1.Name a demonstrable fact about the natural world for which we once had a religious explanation but now have a better scientific explanation.

    2.Name a demonstrable fact about the natural world for which we once had a scientific explanation that has now been superseded by a better religious explanation.

    I hope it’s obvious that the answer to #1 is “countless” and the answer to #2 is “none.” What would anyone believe this solely one-directional trend won’t continue?

  • gittalopctbi Glendale, AZ
    Oct. 10, 2013 11:46 a.m.

    Shout out to Pilot70, jskains, paintandestroy, procuradorfiscal, & tenx.

    @Beverly Watch out for what YOU believe in (science). Science has shown time and time again that it is clearly NOT infallible nor free from corruption. Let's go way back to when Science embraced geocentrism until Galileo came along. So I guess logic changes? (Just following your argument here.) And what about the modern day Myth (with a capital "M") of "anthropomorphic global warming?" Talk about falsifying data, money greed, and manipulation. And let's not forget, according to your "infallible" Science, we actually should have been already dying and extinct by now from an ice age that was supposed to occur in the 80's and 90's. At least that's what Science said.

    I'm with all the shout outs above--Look, you atheists can go form your own organization. I would applaud that. It's your right. I'm disappointed that the UK Boy Scouts caved. It's their organization and others who do not agree with it should just mind their own business. And the UK Boy Scouts should understand and mind its business and do it well.

  • 1978 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 11:20 a.m.

    For those who are commenting on this article and indicate that science somehow invalids the belief in God and therefore the UK scouts are correct in their decision - Please explain your scientific theory for the following:

    How was life created in the first place (meaning DNA molecules being formed etc.)?

    Why do humans have a conscience?

    How was the earth is perfectly designed to support the millions of forms of life?

    As someone with a graduate degree in a scientific field I am geniunely curious about your response. I could list many other questions but these will suffice for now.

  • Bleed Crimson Sandy, Utah
    Oct. 10, 2013 10:53 a.m.

    @ Moontan

    The word "boy" is now sexist because it alienates non-boys? It's that type of attitude towards gender is leading to the destruction of the family unit in our society. Attitudes like "we're all the same" is nonsense. Boys and girls are different. They have different talents and abilities that one gender is stronger at than the other. They're created differently by God so we have a gender identity so we all know that we're sons and daughters of God.

    The boy scouts is a privately funded organization that teaches young men moral principles and not just activities to collect merit badges. If you don't like the boy scouts because it uses "God" in their oath. Then don't have your sons (if you have any) join the boy scouts. Girls have a girl scout organization they can join. But please don't force your secular beliefs on us. That offends us all!

    You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

    God bless you!

  • raybies Layton, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 10:51 a.m.


  • Spider Rico Greeley, CO
    Oct. 10, 2013 10:45 a.m.

    @Ernest - The First and Great Commandment is to love God. And the Second is like unto it - Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. I embrace these two greatest commandments and strive to live by them. That doesn't mean I always need to agree with my neighbor, but that I should love and respect them as Children of God. I feel the same for you my brother. My Church teaches me to serve others, which I believe involves real people. So whether you believe I am misguided in my adherence to command one, my adherence to command two fits with your line about serving real people quite well.

  • Samson01 S. Jordan, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 10:45 a.m.

    Re: The Scientist

    "How sad that so many are so intolerant and hateful of those who do not believe in the fairy tales of religion."

    You put the lie to the sentiment with your choice of words.

  • ksampow Farr West, Utah
    Oct. 10, 2013 10:44 a.m.

    Several of the comments indicated not wishing to donate to the BSA any more because of this. Well, this was done by the boy scout organization in the UK and not in the U.S. It would be a shame to withhold support from the BSA on the basis of a decision that does not involve the Boy Scouts of AMERICA. The BSA still pledge to do their "Duty to God." I hope it stays that way.

  • RBB Sandy, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 10:43 a.m.

    I want to join your club even though I do not believe in what you believe in. Oh, by the way, will you please change your club so it better conforms to my beliefs. What, you will not give us what you believe to accommodate what I believe. What a bunch of haters!

  • Bob A. Bohey Marlborough, MA
    Oct. 10, 2013 10:36 a.m.

    This is fantastic news! Every freedom loving person should be rejoicing over this news. Either an organization is inclusive or it is not. Removing the word God from their oath is another step towards inclusivity. United we stand divided we fall.

  • PookyBear84010 KAYSVILLE, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 10:35 a.m.

    @ Gandalf, there are other ways to give boys "support and camaraderie" and have them "associate with other people and groups that have positive values" without removing THE central guiding concept from Boy Scouts. Should a church stop outward worship of God, because then atheists will be more likely to come and hang around good people? The Boy Scouts is not a church, but it is definitely a religious group. Or at least, it used to be.

    The British scouts probably did think they needed to "adapt to changing circumstances in order to thrive"—meaning they weren't making enough money to keep going, so now they can charge their outrageous prices to atheists as well. I somehow doubt it will make much of a difference.

  • CB Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 10:31 a.m.

    This is not an effort to take God out of the Boy Scouts, this is an effort to take God
    out of the minds and actions of the young. Those still developing standards, goals and values.
    And has been stated, you can see what has happened to our culture as God and been removed from
    schools...government...and our culture.
    I have a library of old radio programs, imagine how " A Family that Prays together, Stays together"
    would go over today from a Hollywood produced program that went into homes throughout the USA before we became so 'educated and sophisticated'. Already in Germany they are taking children
    away from their parents because they are too 'religious'. How long before they start 'goose stepping' into our homes?

  • scwoz gambier, oh
    Oct. 10, 2013 10:01 a.m.

    I am all for inclusiveness but that does not ever mean that we forget the Creator of all. We are taking out the most loving personage in the Universe to satisfy a few whims of the world. It is sad and unacceptable. Lucky for me I do not have to make the decisions that influence the removal of God from our lives because not matter what you think you believe God is still the Creator, the Loving Heavenly Father, our God, this is sad on our part and I am sure he also feels sadness at this choice. What is next, removing God from Church so we don't offend anyone wanting to walk into His Home.

  • kann ferron, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 9:34 a.m.

    "Professing themselves to be wise they became fools...."
    We took God out of school and look what has happened. We have taken God out of government and look was is happening. As much as our overly educated spiritually starved liberals want to think we are evolving for better we are not.

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    Oct. 10, 2013 9:31 a.m.

    I heartily agree with paintanddestroy. "Boy" is clearly sexist, and alienates non-Boys. It fosters gender-identity. And not only am I glad The Scouts removed "God" from the oath, I think it should be removed from all public discourse. I'm am tired of being emotionally traumatized every time someone says "God Bless You" whenever I sneeze. Inconsiderate Neanderthals. If it doesn't stop, I will sue.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 10, 2013 9:05 a.m.

    @Pilot70 – “Certainly, atheists and others who wish to ignore God were always free to organize a program to their liking.”

    One of our major problems in society today is how, rather than truly trying to understand another’s point of view, we instead demonize, caricature, and otherwise attribute views to them they don’t really hold (usually of the straw man variety so we can easily dismiss them).

    So in the spirit of not doing that, please consider this thought experiment. Reread you comment using the word Zeus in place of God. Would you feel comfortable with your kids saying an oath to Zeus?

    That’s exactly how it looks to us (agnostics, skeptics) whenever we want to participate (or especially have our kids involved) in a non-religious organization that we value (and the BSA teaching terrific values).

    And it goes both ways – the Scouts should not be a place for people like me to promote skepticism towards religion. I can do that on my own time just as you can worship on yours.

    I would much rather live in American vs. the Balkans (i.e., we can co-exist).


  • JWB Kaysville, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 8:52 a.m.

    Britain is where the Scouting movement came from and the anti-God people in our country will use this as leverage to get rid of "In God We Trust" and any reference to God taken out of our documents and history. Hopefully, the Boy Scouts of America will stand for truth and integrity in what they believe.

    The adversaries of agency want to take away all of the internal spirit from people so they can be in bondage to everyone and everything without principles. There still is a Principal and that is God.

    The Conference this past weekend did not say it would be easy but God is on the side of freedom and hope. We need to pray for His help everyday and should be thankful for the Plan He has for us even though not easy with the great and spacious building and people throwing darts in every direction.

    I am grateful for my ancestors that came to this land prior to being a country in the 1600s from England. It is a great opportunity to keep the faith in Scouting and everything else that is good.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 8:49 a.m.

    Duty to an invisible man in the sky, or duty to real humans?
    I'll associate with those who serve real humans.

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 8:43 a.m.

    @paintanddestroy: All that's left is to eliminate "Boy" so no one feels left out"

    I hate to break it to you, but the athiests and progressives wouldn't stop there. There is that pesky "morally straight" clause that needs to be eliminated by the GLBT community; the "duty to country" that is antithema to the open border crowd; the "mentally awake" part that seems to go against the "legalize pot" crowd; etc.,etc..

  • Liberal Ted Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 8:41 a.m.

    Yeah Yeah Yeah the atheists claim that they're not trying to force others to share their same viewpoint. Same with the LGBT community. They claim that they just want to be treated the same blah blah blah blah and once they're in then they exercise other "rights" until they have forced their view point on people who don't share that same unbelief or lifestyle.

    "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile" or "No good deed goes unpunished"

  • Spider Rico Greeley, CO
    Oct. 10, 2013 8:36 a.m.

    I'll take the "myths" of religion that give me the desire to serve others, donate time and money to charity, abstain from things that degrade, give me a positive outlook on life, and force me to examine the error of my ways in a bid to better the world. I'll take this over political correctness which looks for controversy in every breath, seeks to discredit the beliefs of billions that have survived millennia, calls God a fairy tale, fights for the "rights" of the criminal rather than victims, lives life in protest rather than in peace and joy, destroys rather than builds, etc. Yes, there are those among the great congregations of God that live similarly to the PCers, but I and a vast army of my brothers are content. You can try to morph me all you want but I will forever strive to live a cleaner, more God-centered life 'til the end of my days. That is an oath I took as an Eagle Scout and as a worshiper of the Almighty God.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 8:14 a.m.

    Rocket Science said: "There is nothing more central, more basic, more important to the Boy Scout movement than Duty to God. It is why Lord Baden Powell began the movement."

    Wrong, it was to train young men to be ready for the armed forces.
    England has a state religion, Duty to God was Duty to State.

  • jskains Orem, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 8:08 a.m.

    Science has its own myths. Some adhere to it more aggressively than most religious followers.

  • tenx Santa Clara, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 8:07 a.m.

    If atheists would build a hall to meet in and socialize, they would have something to do besides sit around and bash religion. Enough!!!

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 8:02 a.m.

    Re: "How sad that so many are so intolerant and hateful of those who do not believe in the fairy tales of religion."

    And, of course, there's no ironic hint of intolerance or hatred evident in such a comment?

    What's actually sad is how liberals/atheists have contorted the American political landscape and embedded in our language and culture their loathsome, newspeak definitions of "hate" and "tolerance."

    It's to the point now, that it's becoming accepted, certainly politically correct, to hate and refuse to tolerate religion, religious people, and religious beliefs.

    And it's all being done in the name of this new liberal definition of "tolerance."

  • paintandestroy Richmond/Cache, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 7:32 a.m.

    All that's left is to eliminate "Boy" so no one feels left out

  • Smiley West Valley City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 7:31 a.m.

    I agree with what Red said. You couldn't have said it better Red.

    San Antonia, TX
    You've gotta stand for Something or your going to fall for anything!

    Sorry to see you fall Boy Scouts of UK.

  • Eliyahu Pleasant Grove, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 7:03 a.m.

    What difference does it make if the oath mentions God or not? Scouting isn't a church, it doesn't focus on teaching about God or any particular religion, and that's not its purpose for being.

  • Beverly Eden, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 6:29 a.m.

    Take a deep breath. It is just a matter of time before God is deleted from scouting in America. All religions are giving way to the facts found is science. The logic is science trumps myth.

  • jskains Orem, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 6:23 a.m.

    First, remember this isn't the BSA. It's the UK equivalent. Second, these were founded as religious groups and are cow tailing to the aggressive anti-religious movement bent on taking over and deleting God from everything. I see this as intolerance yet again from atheists. It says "I've decided to join your program, but you now have to delete your beliefs to make room for me". If religion is a fairy tale, why do atheists care? Do they cry when their kids join say the Harry Potter fan club and the material you sign mentions magic and Hogwarts?

  • Pilot70 Orem, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 3:59 a.m.

    Unbelievable. Literally. In the rush to be all-inclusive, the British Scouts have EXCLUDED the Creator ... the one being who loves us all, put us here, and includes each of us in His family. That isn't inclusive at all.

    Sure, there ought to be an organization where EVERYONE is accepted regardless of belief, and taught values and morals. That organization ought to be SCHOOL. Certainly, atheists and others who wish to ignore God were always free to organize a program to their liking. Nothing would be lost in doing so. (Scouts are divided into troops as it is.) It is not divisive or destructive to have youth programs for those who do not want God in them. The British chose instead to obliterate the core faith of an entire organization so it would reflect atheist non-belief over devotion to God. Now those who wish to have God deeply involved in a scouting program have nowhere to go ... or must start from scratch to rebuild all they have accomplished. Shameful.

    Having a youth group that acknowledges God and exercises faith in Him IS NOT intolerant. Demanding the removal of expressions of faith to make some feel better IS intolerant.

  • gittalopctbi Glendale, AZ
    Oct. 9, 2013 11:43 p.m.


    You are correct with your points 1 & 2. Not with 3. True, some organizations may need to evolve. But when faith-based organizations evolve by changing their core tenets--actually, ANY organization that does so--is no longer the organization that it was. The Boy Scouts was formed on principles that should never change, the principles based on faith in God. That's why the LDS church embraces the BSA and has done so for 100 years. If there are those who want all you say in your post, let them start their own organization. @Red did not miss a thing.

  • ParkCityAggie Park City, Ut
    Oct. 9, 2013 11:19 p.m.

    I don't know why this would ever be some sort of controversy, you can always worship "God" in... oh say a Church or in the privacy of your own home. If the Boy Scouts are so hung up on religion why not call them the Christian Solders or God Scouts? There are plenty of places to worship God.

  • The Scientist Provo, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 11:11 p.m.

    How sad that so many are so intolerant and hateful of those who do not believe in the fairy tales of religion.

  • Aggielove Cache county, USA
    Oct. 9, 2013 10:33 p.m.

    Welcome to the world of PC.

  • Brave heart Springville , UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 9:23 p.m.

    This is a laudable step in the progress and growth of Boy Scouts. Finally the people in charge are using logic and reason, not just in the administration of the scouting program, but in the core values and beliefs as well. There is no price for teaching kids to have beliefs based on facts and evidence.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 9, 2013 9:01 p.m.

    This is awful!

    Saying “God” in the oath is the foundation for all the morals these scouts will learn. Without saying “God” all their efforts will be meaningless, their merit badges will be shallow symbols of moral decay, and they will inevitably fall into selfishness, decadence and debauchery… um… not.

  • ca2000 West Wendover, NV
    Oct. 9, 2013 8:50 p.m.

    If this is the direction they are going to be taking, then I will no longer be making donations to them.

  • Rocket Science Brigham City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 8:43 p.m.

    There is nothing more central, more basic, more important to the Boy Scout movement than Duty to God. It is why Lord Baden Powell began the movement. With out God, the very foundation of Scouting crumbles. A sad day for a wonderful movement that has influenced millions for good.

  • Gandalf Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 8:30 p.m.

    Red, here are three things worth standing for that you're missing:

    •some boys are not raised in conventional faith traditions but, like all other young men, need the support and camaraderie that the boy scouts offer

    •regardless of whether a boy believes in Him or not, God loves all His sons and wants them to associate with other people and groups that have positive values that are calculated to bring the boy closer to his Father

    •organizations need to evolve with changing times and adapt to changing circumstances in order to thrive

    I'm thrilled that the Boy Scouts of UK recognizes the value of, and need for, Scout values and experiences in the lives of all young men. Both that organization and the boys in the UK will benefit from this change.

  • Jim Mesa, Az
    Oct. 9, 2013 8:11 p.m.

    Appeasement.......Isn't that how WW2 started? I dare say old chap that Lord BP would rolling in his grave

  • Red San Antonia, TX
    Oct. 9, 2013 7:50 p.m.

    You've gotta stand for Something or your going to fall for anything!

    Sorry to see you fall Boy Scouts of UK.

  • Uncle Rico Sandy, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 7:40 p.m.

    One more reason why I did not donate to friends of scouting this year.