Okay don't rip my head off, but I was just wondering if there IS a link,
could part of it be that they are more likely to be raised with an
Another story where people jump on the bandwagon and scream foul. The facts are
there are a lot of same-sex couples who are raising children in a loving,
nurturing home and the kids thrive and grow to be upstanding adults.
@Christopher B --"We shouldn't be surprised that when
people do the opposite of what nature has said is best we don't have the
best results"You know, I actually kind of agree with you
there.But consider this:Many non-human species practice
homosexual behaviors. For example -- in bonobo chimps, over half of all sexual
activity is between females. In giraffes, 90% of all sexual activity is between
males. In black swans, 1/4 of all swan pairs are males. And there are many many
more examples, which I won't list here.So, it's easy to
see that homosexual activity in humans is very much in line with nature.
It's easy to find in nature -- therefore it's natural.In
stark contrast, NO non-human species have religion.Not a single
one.Soooo......in reality, homosexual behavior is natural. But religion is not.Hmmmm.What's that you were
saying about "doing the opposite of what nature has said"??
We shouldn't be surprised that when people do the opposite of what nature
has said is best we don't have the best results
@RBB --""Science" is not allowed if it does not fit the
narrative. "Well-researched science should always be allowed, no
matter what narrative it does or does not fit. Poorly-researched pseudo-science
masquerading as real science should be criticized, deconstructed, picked apart,
and laughed at -- as it deserves to be.
Miss Piggie says:"The problem is not the gender of the
couples... the problem is, children raised in homosexual homes are largely
shunned and subtly discriminated against by peers and at school by almost anyone
who becomes aware of their home-life situation. This negatively affects
children's opinion of themselves, hence their drive to succeed. To
heterosexuals, homosexuality is disgusting. This perception carries over to
kids."---What you're saying is that bigotry is
bad. Why then, do you insist on perpetuating it? Just a note, if you pronounce
bigoted views in front of your kids, they're going to pick up those same
views. @PLM;Prove it.
RBB -- And when you read another study that shows something that doesn't
fit your narrative, keep your comment in mind.
Stop it. "Science" is not allowed if it does not fit the narrative.
Now repeat after me - "Same sex couples are just as good as a mom and dad
and anyone who disagrees is a bigot."
"I was around the little boy on many occasions and his demeanor was always
the same."PLM, maybe the kid just didn't like you. It sure
seems like you didn't like the kid "I have studied
psychology and human nature . . ."Well if that's true (I
wonder what your definition of studied is) you would know that observation of
just one person cannot be broadly applied. And also that children have many
different personalities for many different reasons. "Family
established by God, proved by nature. No second guesses, no court or law to the
contrary can prevail or exceed God's plan for the happiness of his
children. I have lived it and know it is true"Or so you
believe.- "You are correct, no-fault divorce should be
outlawed."Luke, I'm going to take a guess that you are
conservative. So I gotta ask, why is it that conservatives, for all their talk
about small government, seem to want to our government right where it is most
obtrusive for people? You guys want to shove it right in the middle of the
bedroom, the doctors office, and relationships.
@PLM --"know that children have the best opportunity for success
and are in the optimal environment when raised by both of their loving
heterosexual married parents."Wow. Really? You really know
better than all the professional child development experts in the US? I'm
impressed. Where did you get your degrees? Where did you get your daily
professional experience with child development?The truth is that
every reputable group of child development experts in this country SUPPORT gay
marriage. They recognize that children grow up just fine in gay-led homes.Supporting groups include:American Academy of PediatricsAmerican Academy of Family PractitionersAcademy of Child and Adolescent
PsychiatryAmerican Psychological AssociationAmerican Psychiatric
AssociationNational Association of Social WorkersFrom
AAP's position statement: "There is an emerging consensus, based on
extensive review of the scientific literature, that children growing up in
households headed by gay men or lesbians are not disadvantaged in any
significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents" and
“Marriage strengthens families and benefits child development".The "study" discussed in this article is garbage, for reasons
many of us have mentioned already. And like garbage, it should be dumped.
@SunsetI was around the little boy on many occasions and his demeanor was
always the same. I am a parent of seven, grew up in a single parent household
and know how difficult that is for all involved. I am in a subsequent marriage
and know the challenges that occur there. I have studied psychology and human
nature and know that children have the best opportunity for success and are in
the optimal environment when raised by both of their loving heterosexual
married parents. I hope you are not suggesting that the role of a mother is not
important and that two men can provide what a loving mother does for her child.
Or that women can take the place of an involved father. Here is the equation:
good mother + good father = best outcome for the child. No substitutes. No
apologies. Family established by God, proved by nature. No second guesses, no
court or law to the contrary can prevail or exceed God's plan for the
happiness of his children. I have lived it and know it is true.
Intact heterosexual married couples provide the best opportunity for a
child's successful and happy outcome. Period.
It seems there is a lot of information we do not know. Is their findings because
of a lack of acceptance outside of their own homes? are any of these children
from overseas orphanages or from foster care and have problems that might have
prevented them from graduating? Are there other factors besides it being a very
small study that might be at play we know nothing about. It is not as simple as
having 2 gay parents. If you work in education you know that there are many kids
from two parent families who choose not to graduate for a variety of reasons and
children from single parent homes that choose not to. Some may be failings of
the education system as well. It is a complicated problem that is not as simple
as the sexual orientation of their parents.
I think we are not seeing the big picture. The reason the study was done and
why it was published here is to justify opposing SSM. The problem though is
that it doesn't matter whether the study is right or wrong, flawed or
not...It is simply a distraction.As someone pointed out, perhaps we
should outlaw certain ethnic groups from marrying since their kids are far less
likely to graduate than kids of white couples. We could outlaw drug addicts,
child molesters, etc... from marrying since their influence is harmful to any
kids that they would produce. Yet we still allow such to marry. This shows
that we are NOT fighting to limit marriage to only those people who would likely
raise well adjusted kids. We are only trying to withhold it from a certain
group and are trying to justify our animus toward them.This is just
a distraction. Withholding marriage from gays while permitting drug addicts,
child molesters, etc..shows the hypocrisy of those who will use this study to
claim that their motives are pure...that they're just wanting what's
best for the kids...Horse feathers.
@Happy Valley HereticYou are correct, no-fault divorce should be
Abby Normal isn't the character I would want for a parent. I wonder what my
kids think about me.
@GZEMy comment was correct, no thank you for your suggestion.
@Miss piggy"Never happen... simply because it first would
necessitate acceptance of the aberrant conduct of the 'parents." So I are you advocating the shunning of innocent children for what some
view to be the sins of their parents or just pointing out the weakness within
the minds of and broken moral compass of those that do so?
Chris B "I can't say this is surprising. It's obvious that the
best environment for a child is a mom and dad together and married. Nothing else
is an equal substitute."I wondered what happened to Mr. butters
after retirement, I see he still has a great hatred of all things gay.Perhaps divorce should be legislated against since this affects far more
children than gay marriages ever will, but of course this really isn't
about the children. It's about religion, and the selective use of a few
scriptures, cherry picking the bible so that God agrees with you on one thing
while ignoring the many, many scriptures against divorce.
@Maudine:"Miss Piggie: Your argument seems to be that some people
oppose same-sex unions and will bully children based on who their parents
are."Wrong... not bullied per se... Shunned. And not dealt
with in other subtle ways i.e., invited over after school to play with dolls,
etc., like kids in 'normal' marriages. "Don't you think the proper solution to that problem is teaching
compassion towards those who are different than you and letting kids know that
bullying is never okay?"Never happen... simply because it first
would necessitate acceptance of the aberrant conduct of the 'parents.'
I think I need reminding that the Deseret News is owned by the Church of Jesus
Christ of the Latter Day Saints, and not by Rupert Murdock.Besides
the fact that we are dealing with dubious sources (I think Regnerus is the less
credible than any other poller), it just seems than some folks at DN earn their
living by dredging up crud that pleases the most conservative (or backward)
readers. I mean, do we really need to reference a country with fewer people than
California, when we have so much information on American families?I
was going to answer it point by point, but it is too ridiculous. It seems
perhaps to be a sneaky way of insisting on male-female married families as the
only way, when every other study says that on average, 2 women raise
better-educated kids than man-woman couples.However, the article
shows another reason for same sex marriage -- stability and fidelity in the home
are good for kids.
@ Chris B: The reason marriage is so important and why so many same-sex couples
want it is because it does create a stability that improves the outcome for the
couple and their children. So, yes - the existence of a marriage certificate
does make a difference.@ Miss Piggie: Your argument seems to be
that some people oppose same-sex unions and will bully children based on who
their parents are. Don't you think the proper solution to that problem is
teaching compassion towards those who are different than you and letting kids
know that bullying is never okay?
Article title, quote: "Study: Children in same-sex families less apt to
graduate than in mom-dad intact families"What?How
can THAT be???...The pro-homosexual community 'knows' that
there are NO harmful effects of being raised by a dad and a dad or a mom and a
"I can't measure what having a Mom (female) and a Dad (male) did to
help me become a functioning member of society. Having both may not be a
pre-requisite but it sure was a huge advantage."Actually having
a parent of each gender is a pre-requisite. No one gets born to same sex
parents. God made it that way, for good reason.Those who disagree
with God, and the study, first say the study is flawed/untrue, but then say that
the failures of kids raised by same sex parents are society's fault. Not
convincing arguments, either one alone, but together they sound like cheap
@ PLMAttributing the so-called "unhappiness" of the toddler
to his conception seems particularly absurd. Lots of healthy, happy kids have
unconventional origins. Many are adopted. Others are born thanks to advances in
medicine because their biological parents have fertility issues. They grow up
fine.Furthermore, how do you even know the child was truly unhappy?
Do you have children? They aren't always nice or pleasant. They can be
quite cranky sometimes! They throw tantrums! Maybe you caught the child before
his nap? Kids also have different personalities. Not every child is going to be
a social butterfly. When my niece screams bloody murder because she doesn't
get her way, should I proceed to condemn her straight parents? No child is happy
all the time!It is unfortunate that the lesbian couple broke up. The
dissolution of any family or relationship can be traumatic. However, it's
unfair for you to then take the leap that this one case proves that all gay
relationships are inferior. Over half of all marriages fail (over 70% of
subsequent marriages fail). These stats apply to straight couples. By your
logic, the rampage of divorce should make us condemn all straight marriages.
@USU Aggie --"well look at Canada, they've been allowing
same sex marriage for years and they're doing just fine."Yup. Canada was and is doing just fine."And now that Canada
has come out...these same posters are saying boloney. "1.
"Canada" has NOT come out with a study. This study was done by ONE
Canadian, who is on the board of the Ruth Institute of the National Organization
for Marriage, and who used biased data from a several-year-old Canadian
census.2. And yup, the study is baloney. That's why we're
saying baloney. ;-)"So if they speak on the issue and voice
concern, we need to listen and learn."Ahhhh, but "they"
did NOT voice concern. The person who did speak is actually someone who has a
vested interest in cherry-picking data to support his preconceived prejudices.
IOW, he is fatally biased, and his "study" is fatally flawed.Incidentally -- this "researcher", Doug Allen, has previously stated
that lesbian relationships are unstable, unhealthy, and promiscuous and that the
marriage of gay couples will somehow lead to an increase in heterosexual
divorces. Not a real objective observer, there.
One study shows that kids are less likely to graduate High School and another
says that same gender couple give just as much support to children as opposite
sex couples.So the effect is OUTSIDE the home. So did anyone
actually ask the kids why?If you are being bullied or even shunned
in High School the easiest thing to do is get your GED and move on isn't
it? Yep.So this IS actually biased in that it only counts graduation
rates and not the EDUCATION of the children without any observations as to why
it happens. Show me a study that the children are learning less or have actual
harmful outcomes. Then we can still mind our own beeswax.
@Chris B:"What would a marriage certificate from the govt have
anything to do with a couples ability to raise their children with sufficient
upbringing to have them graduate?"Let me help you...The problem is not the gender of the couples... the problem is, children
raised in homosexual homes are largely shunned and subtly discriminated against
by peers and at school by almost anyone who becomes aware of their home-life
situation. This negatively affects children's opinion of themselves,
hence their drive to succeed. To heterosexuals, homosexuality is disgusting.
This perception carries over to kids.Unfortunately, this situation
will never change because homosexual arrangements will always be in the minority
and looked down upon as an aberration to normal family life, even if eventually
Very interesting....A few months ago a lot of the same posters that
are on here commenting were saying "well look at Canada, they've been
allowing same sex marriage for years and they're doing just fine." And
now that Canada has come out with a study saying kids from same sex marriage
homes aren't doing so well, these same posters are saying boloney. Technically speaking the Canadians are the experts when it comes to same
sex marriage, they've been allowing it since 2005. That's longer than
any state that allows same sex marriage here in the USA. So if they speak on
the issue and voice concern, we need to listen and learn.
RedWings,Whether or not we are becoming less moral is very much up
for debate. Over time, we have decided that non-white people should be granted
the full rights of being a human being. Women are no longer forced to live in
abusive marriages due to police departments that wouldn't investigate, a
lack of employment options, and the very real probability they would lose their
children if they left. There are numerous examples like this. At best, society
is progressing toward a more equitable and less dogmatic reality. At worst,
we're trading one set of bad morals for another.I also love
that you use the Romans as an example. Nero was emperor long before the fall of
the Roman empire. Or perhaps you meant that by accepting Christianity the Roman
empire lost its moral compass and slid toward anarchy?
@RedWings"What is obvious is a general decline in society each
generation. "That's not obvious at all. Violent crime is
down. Jim Crow is gone. More women are being educated than ever before.
There's less wars in the world than ever before. There's less slavery
in the world than ever before.
My husband died when my daughter was 11, you don't think that affected her?
In raising her child, she tells me that there are things that her husband
brings to the table, that I totally lacked as a female. And my daughter is pro
gay marriage and very liberal, but she can see from her own upbringing as
compared to her daughters what was lacking.
Every study about gay marriage and homosexuality is biased - It is simply too
much of a political issue for anyone to want the truth. Each study is set up so
that the researchers get the results they want. we will probably never get
good, scientific research on this issue because of this. What is
obvious is a general decline in society each generation. As we become a less
moral society, we lose our place in the world. It happened to Rome, Greece, and
Europe, and it is happening to us. I am not speaking of homosexuality as being
the main cause. It is a by-product, just as it was in the Roman bath houses.
We are turning from the hard work and morals that built our society, and we will
reap the destruction from it. History is a hard but truthful schoolmaster.....
PLM says, Intact heterosexual married couples provide the best opportunity for a
child's successful and happy outcome.Let me fix that for you:
Intact COMMITTED couples provide the best opportunity for a child's
successful and happy outcome.You're welcome.
Oh fer heaven's sake.The very first sentence of the article
tells us that this study has the same flaw as Regnerus' laugh-fest did."A new Canadian study based on that country's census says
children in households headed by same-sex couples are less apt to graduate than
those in married, opposite-sex households."Notice that they
compared ALL same-sex households to MARRIED opposite-sex households. IOW, they
compared a group with many UNSTABLE households against a group with STABLE
households.Once again, they measured the difference between
stability and instability -- NOT the difference between opposite-sex parents and
same-sex parents.And they got predictable results.
*shrugs* Should we start restricting marriage to other demographics (race,
religion) based on averages? Some parents are going to do a good job, others
aren't. That applies to all demographics. Using these kinds of stats to
target particular groups ignores individual efforts and is stereotyping at best,
bigotry at worst.
"The study found that "Regardless of the controls and whether or not
girls are currently living in a gay or lesbian household, the odds of graduating
from high school are considerably lower than any other household type. Indeed,
girls living in gay households are only 15 percent as likely to graduate
compared to girls from opposite sex married homes.""""It is important to note that the census identifies children living
with their parents, and not just adults. Hence, children of same sex parents are
those who respond affirmative to the question: 'Are you a child of a male
(female) same-sex married or common law couple?’”"These two quotes taken together totally invalidate the claim of the study -
they give every indication that current family status was not considered, just
some vague connection to at some point in time having parents who were involved
in a same-sex relationship.How can a study claim something matters
but also doesn't matter?
I can't measure what having a Mom (female) and a Dad (male) did to help me
become a functioning member of society. Having both may not be a pre-requisite
but it sure was a huge advantage.
Scott Rose,What would a marriage certificate from the govt have
anything to do with a couples ability to raise their children with sufficient
upbringing to have them graduate?Are you excusing poor parenting by
gay couples on a lack of a marriage certificate? Poor form.Children
Douglas Allen sits on the board for the National Organization for Marriage--an
anti-gay-marriage lobbying group. Do you think it might just be possible that
he has a slight bias in conducting his study? Michael J. Rosenfeld at Stanford
and Gary Gates at UCLA have already highlighted some of the major problems with
this study. The most glaring issue is that he doesn't control for factors
such as poverty. Once such factors are controlled for (necessary if you are
actually trying to establish causation) the difference disappears.
Talk about an Inconvient Truth.I wonder who is going to be boycotted
- the entire country of Canada or just these researchers?
A Canadian study.... Lost me just after reading that sentence.
Oh, Please.Why don't you try to locate some positive research for a
change.DN seems to seek out all negative on this topic. Since this
was again discussed at LDS Conference, is the barrage of anti-gay cruel bashing
beginning all over again?
I am sorry, but I do not believe this study one bit! The authors are from some
unknown University and since when has Canada ever represented the United States?
I call BALONEY on this!
I bet little girls raised by 2 male guys are at something of a
disadvantage...and wonder if vice versa as well. But of course that's just
my theory, it would be interesting to see some studies on it. (And a note to
the author of the original study, you can't publish things that are against
gay marriage, don't you know that that's not PC anymore? LOL).
Biased studies produce biased results. Let's wait for some real peer
Children are not naturally born into same sex unions, is it any wonder they
don't thrive? The saddest little boy I've met was a three year-old
son, created by artificial insemination, with two lesbian parents. It broke my
heart to see such a young child without the natural enthusiasm possessed by most
young children. The couple went on to have another child,then broke up within a
few years. People may rail at the truth, but it is still the truth. Intact
heterosexual married couples provide the best opportunity for a child's
successful and happy outcome.
There is no causality between being raised by a gay parent and not graduating
from high school. Put another way, many children raised by gay parents excel
academically; many children raised by heterosexual parents do poorly in school.
The study is ridiculous, because it claims that gay-headed families were legally
on a equal footing with heterosexual headed families, yet the outcome measure is
high-school graduation, and the data is from the 2006 Canadian census, taken one
year after federal legal equality was achieved in Canada. That means the longest
a legally-equal gay-headed family could have been raising a child was one year.
How many 1-year-olds graduate high school?
I can't say this is surprising. It's obvious that the best
environment for a child is a mom and dad together and married. Nothing else is
an equal substitute.
Oof, the study authors are going to catch some serious flak for this. Prepare
to be bombarded by tolerance.