I still remember this exchange on 60 Minutes with leading republican Eric Cantor
regarding compromising :Stahl: What's the difference between
compromise and cooperate?Cantor: Well, I would say cooperate is
let's look to where we can move things forward where we agree. Comprising
principles, you don't want to ask anybody to do that. That's who they
are as their core being.Yet Republicans are asking Democrats to
compromise on the ACA. Hah!
@2 bit – I believe your understanding of government shutdowns is flawed;
you are confusing tactics and outcomes. In most previous incidents, shutdown
was an outcome of budget negotiations lasting too long or falling through, not a
deliberate tactic to force concessions.In 2010 Republicans
campaigned on plans to shut down the government – it didn’t matter
why. It was a major applause line with conservative audiences. When they voted
to shut down the government, Republicans were jubilant. Michelle Bachmann
described the caucus as the happiest it has been in years once they shut down
the government. They ran on shutting it down and they got to shut it down. Now
what?It’s not about the ACA or any specific policy. It is
about the basic structures by which policy is made in the US. The Republicans
couldn’t win at the ballot box and couldn’t win through valid
legislative means. So they’re turning to blackmail. Such behavior is
unacceptable in a Democracy. The end do not justify the means.
@mg scott"We in the rest of the country are tired of funding
your 5 star lifestyles....the counties surrounding D.C. are amoung[sic] the
richest in the country. And it's mostly done with tax dollars."Wrong. That's like saying that Hollywood is responsible for the
expense of living in LA. DC is wealthy for the same reasons that other
first-world capitals are. It's the center of power, which will always
attract money. It is one of the highest-educated areas with lawyers, lobbyists,
and major corporations. It is becoming the east coast equivalent of Silicon
Valley for IT. In my county, millionaires with horse-breeding estates
drastically skew income figures. Federal employees aren't the
major driver behind the income stats. My salary -- right at the mode for
government workers -- is a hair more than my BIL's in SLC. He lives on the
Bench in a house more than twice the size of my modest townhome. His income
puts him at more than twice the median income of Clearfield. Here it is 20%
below median income. No, you aren't bestowing me with a 5 star
lifestyle. I've a very solidly middle-class life here.
What is the "common ground"? Is it "political pressure" from
the White House? Is it Harry Reid lying about his authority? Is it
"community organizers" who infiltrate every newspaper and every media
outlet to insure that the "party line" will be published?There can be no compromise on principle. ObamaCare was passed by the
Democrats. They lied about the contents of that bill. They bribed Congressmen
and Congresswomen to vote for that bill. They violated the rules to pass that
bill. They ignored the 59% of Americans who told them that they didn't
want ObamaCare. Now, finally, we have a House that represents the
will of the People. The Senate represents the will of Obama and Harry Reid; it
does not represent the will of the States. Obama represents himself and himself
only. He could care less about the people. He's shown that by shutting of
all government services to those who depend on Washington.If there
is anything to be learned about this "shutdown", it is that
"community organizers" will destroy America before they ever consider
the cost of their programs to you or to me. They will tax us into bankruptcy.
2 bits, There’s no precedent for the current shutdown in the
previous shutdowns. The earlier government shutdowns occurred over government
revenue issues, independent executive branch decisions, and 11th-hour
legislative disagreements. This crisis is not about the tyranny of
the majority; it's about the tyranny of a minority who 'believe'
they are under the tyranny of a majority. These Republicans see Obama as a
tyrant because he won't compromise. However, Obama has compromised
repeatedly. The more he tries to meet them half way, the more they deny each
concession and then demand more. When he finally stops, the cry goes up that he
"refuses to compromise." This minority is a problem because they are no
longer amenable to facts.
How can the Non-affordable Care Act be called "snit". People are loosing
their jobs, full time status to part time and employers are backing off growth
plans due to unknown increased costs of this nonsensical ACA. The US debt today
is nearing $17 Trillion, not including the incalculable costs of this foolish
plan to insure 9 million Americans. I'll bet before it's over there
will be upwards of 30 million uninsured. This train wreck is nothing close to
what they have in England or Canada. In a free society how can anyone be forced
to buy something? The Supremes missed it on the commerce clause due to lack of
courage on the part of Roberts.
In Washington, compromise means the other side should give in.
@lost in DC"Not if we did away with obamacare completely"The CBO scored the repeal of Obamacare bill as adding 109 billion to the
deficit over the next 10 years so a total repeal would be even worse for the
deficit than just getting rid of the medical devices tax. @patriot"There is only ONE side compromising and ONE side talking
and that is the GOP."The GOP has offered nothing. Compromises
involves both sides offering something. Let's say Democrats wanted the only
change to the budget to be a massive tax on ammunition. Republicans would say
that's not a compromise since the Democrats are offering nothing in
exchange for that. Then Democrats say that they just want a small tax on some
ammunition types and say that since they pulled back their demands they are
compromising. That still wouldn't be a compromise, it's just a less
extreme one-sided arrangement.
Both sides looking for common ground?? Are you kidding? There is only ONE side
compromising and ONE side talking and that is the GOP. The other side -
predictably - led by Dirty Harry and his boss are loving the shut down...
Reference the history of shutdowns. They are different now. From VOA:This is the 12th shutdown since 1981. The last and longest shutdown occurred
from December 1995 into January 1996 under the Bill Clinton administration and
spanned 21 days. It came just a month after a six-day shutdown in November
1995. Before the 1980s, if Congress could not pass a budget, federal
employees continued operating as usual, even while waiting for a spending bill
to pass. Once it did, that bill would retroactively fund the spending gap. But in 1980, Jimmy Carter's last year as president, then-attorney
general Benjamin Civiletti issued a legal opinion saying government work cannot
continue until Congress agrees to fund it. Civiletti later clarified the law to
mean only "essential" government services could continue without a
spending bill. During Ronald Reagan's presidency from 1981 to
1989, shutdowns were relatively common, but none of them lasted more than three
days, and many occurred over a weekend.
Res NovaeA few hostages leading to the whole gang eventually being
released is better than none, and THAT is where the Democrats are now. And they
will stay there as long as the media, and yes they are always culpable when in
defense of Democrats, is able to play the blame card on the Republicans. If the
Republican poll numbers continue to sink, whats to say that Obama and the
Democrats won't milk this for weeks? I believe they would, just for their
own political gain. I don't think Democrats care about the people any more
than you think the Republicans do. For that gang in your neighborhood, it is
all about money and power. We in the rest of the country are tired of funding
your 5 star lifestyles. Thank you. And if you doubt my accusations, the
counties surrounding D.C. are amoung the richest in the country. And it's
mostly done with tax dollars.
What "democracy" means to me is the rule of the people:Greek
"demos" = the peopleGreek "kratia" = power, ruleNow I'm all for people power/rule in the legislating process, but
the "demos" do not have much "kratia" in the matter, do they?
Not usually anyway, or there would be little talk of amnesty, no bank or motor
company bailouts, going to war in foreign lands, raising debt ceilings etc etc
etc, and we would, in my view, be far better served. OK it's
an INDIRECT democracy, and the people just elect representatives, but the
majority in the House of Representatives today are actually against so-called
"Obamacare" too. I wish them success.
Lost in DC,I checked politifact, you have twisted the
"facts" to suit your case. POTUS and Congress together modified ACA
something like 17 times in response to issues that have arisen during
implementation, and the Obama administration made one change unilaterally. Had
Obama refused to modify ACA conservatives would have criticized that, since they
like to be in the position of "heads we win, tails Obama loses". By the
way, what's with all the claims by conservatives that "Obamacare has
failed" when it hasn't even really got started up yet?2bit
(on your response to glendenbg) Tyrant? Obama has not done a single thing to be
accused of acting like a tyrant. Yet 'conservatives' constantly accuse
him of that and worse ... marxist socialist stalinist naxi hitler muslim kenyan
... It's hard to take conservative points seriously when interlarded with
I just read an article that said the House had just passed a bill to fund the
Guard and the Reserves. It will now go to the Senate. Let's see what they
do with it. If it stops in the Senate, then the Democrats have taken the baton.
Or hot potato if you will. Hope the media reports this. However, with shots
fired near the capital, I doubt it.
glendenbg 10:36 a.m.You complain about the shutdown because process
matters. Wondering... Did you complain the 16 times Democrats caused a
government shutdown? 4 times in a hissy-fit insisting the government fund
abortions. (see wikipedia for the reasons for the previous 18 shutdowns).5 of the 18 occurred when there was a Democrat President, House AND
Senate... how are going to blame THAT on Republicans??Fact is... IF
you know history... you know Democrats do it as much (or more) than Republicans.
So this pretend high-horse you guys are on doesn't work for people who
don't think history started the day Obama took office. There is some
history on this topic.If you think this is the only time... or
Republicans are the only ones who have used this tactic... you gotta get
literate of your history.Process matters. But this is a legal part
of a government designed so ONE person or ONE party can't rule without
addressing the concerns of the minority (a concept the founding fathers called
"tyranny of the majority"). Something the really REALLY wanted to
prevent when writing our Constitution. They wanted statesmen... not tyrants.
Obama's being a tyrant.
@ 2 bits, see glendenbg reply, well said2 bits I appreciate your
response, looked up the wikipedia entry. You have not addressed my points: 1)
DOMA was found unconstitutional by SCOTUS. 2) ACA (Obamacare) was found
constitutional by SCOTUS. Both rulings followed the constitutional process. 3)
40-year-old shutdowns have nothing to do with this week's shutdown.
Unrelated examples, fuzzy thinking.One house of congress, extorting
the American people by refusing to fund the government, is not a process defined
in the constitution. House can't defund ACA, has no plan for reopening, but
plans to continue with government closure under the expectation that the
democrats will fold and gop will get some goodie and/or save face. The ACA
funding is in the mandatory funding budget, it was never in play. If democrats
were to fold, would gop try to defund the social security program next?The temp CR would pass if brought to a vote today, though I hope the funding
will be increased if/when it goes to conference. It's a shame for the USA
that gop gerrymandering stacked the House with people who do not believe in
MakidDems are seeking to keep the government shut down to inflict as much
political damage as possible on the repubs regardless of what it does to the
nation. Party over nation is the unwritten, but clearly evident, dem mantra.Annes, Why can BO unilaterally change Obamacare? I’m tired
of the misinformation and fuzzy thinking of BO supporters. Res
Novae,Thanks for admitting the dems in the senate would rather shut down
the government than have parts of it operate, that they want to inflict as much
damage as possible.atl134,Not if we did away with obamacare
completelyTrilsys,Why has BO not signed it, then?Shame on democrats!One vote,The tea party abhors compromise?
Who was it that said “NO COMPROMISE”? oh yeah, that was BO.glendenbg,Cannot use a shutdown, but BO can do it on a whim.
Please defend THAT position.Okio,Yes, you did
Republicans can come along for the ride if they want, but they’ll have to
ride in the backWe won, you lost, get over itWe will not
negotiateWe will not compromiseWhat do these phrases all
have in common?All were spoken by dems following BO’s
electionWe see who is the real party of NO!BJB1Why
is BO ignoring part of his own signature law – the employer portion?
Where in the legislation is he given that authority? Why does he ignore legally
enacted immigration laws? Why does his cabal ignore voter anti-intimidation
laws? Why could slick willy lie to a federal court?Don’t go
spouting off about negotiating with terrorists when you consider the dems quotes
listed above and BO ignoring multiple laws.MadSat,Irresponsible brinkmanship is the whole domain of BO. Nothing else brings him
to the table (irony guy) – he acts like a law unto himself.JoeBlow,The right will be blamed because of the constant campaigning by
the left – who WANT the shutdown for political gain – and their
lapdog media’s biased commentary.
"We’re not going to be disrespected. We have to get something out of
this. And I don’t know what that even is."-Rep. Martin Stutzman
(R-Indiana)Sums up the GOP's "compromise" ability right
Even though I voted for Mr. Obama I can understand the anger felt by the
Republicans.As I opened the letter last night from my Insurance
provider informing me that I could no longer keep my existing Insurance plan I
had to think back to the number of times I heard him exclaim on TV that "If
you like your existing insurance plan, you can keep it!" or the numerous
times he told me that It was not a tax. But now i am simply left wondering if I
helped elect a pathological liar?
Well done, Makid. As for repealing the medical devices tax, fine, if
Republicans will agree to a different tax to replace the lost revenue.
Otherwise, stand firm, Mr. President.
@Makid (Kearns, UT) His comment is the first plausible analysis of this
"crisis" that I've read or heard. Every other view from both sides
has been gibberish to me.If the Republicans want to compromise in
order to delay the ACA, they need to offer in return something that the
Democrats want. I think Makid's two suggestions were wonderful ideas.
We're not there yet, judging by the posts.
@2 bits - What's wrong with Congress using a shut down to change a law?
It's wrong because in a democracy process matters. The ACA was publicy
debated for 14 months. It was subject to endless public discussion and debate
and who knows how many changes. Many parts of it were added because
Republicans said they supported them. In its most essential design, it is a
plan created by a conservative think tank in the 1990s, and then successfully
implemented in MA. There are defined ways in which laws can be
changed or repealed and Republicans tried those ways and failed. Turning to
blackmail to achieve desired ends is an assault on democratic processes.Honest negotiation means seeking an outcome acceptable to both sides.
House Republicans know they aren't offering any acceptable outcomes. They
aren't willing to consider anything other than their desired outcome.
Those outcomes may be noble, but the ends do not justify the means.The debate is not about the ACA. It's about the ways in which a
democracy functions and the ways in which our democracy makes decisons.
In order to compromise you have to leave tea party fantasy.
annes,So... what's wrong with Congress being allowed to "change a
standing law using a government shutdown" or any other power given them in
the Constitution? Do you want the Defense of Marriage Act back? (A standing
law that was recently removed).2. RE: "the US will have no
constitution and no government"! I think you are being over-dramatic.3. RE: "That's just one important reason why democrats will
stand against this unconstitutional tactic forever, if necessary".You are aware that 16 out of the 18 times the Government has shutdown
Democrats controlled the Senate and refused to compromise? Most of the times
they controlled the House as well. Google "Government shutdown
history" and see the table of each instance in Wikipedia". So... with
that in mind. Explain how "democrats will stand against this
unconstitutional tactic forever"... when they are the ones who do it.4. You're "tired of the misinformation and fuzzy thinking
coming from gop supporters"... but misinformed Democrat supporters are OK?
The tea party abhors compromise. When Chafetz wants the present to compromise he
means capitulate now or in one year.
There is nothing to compromise. The budget is a Republican budget that the
President has said he would sign. The only reason for this disaster is because
Republicans are in a snit about the ACA, nothing else.ACA is the law
of the land. It was passed by the House, passed by the Senate, signed by the
President of the United States, and vetted by the Supreme Court. Like it or not,
it is the law. If you don't like it, introduce a bill to repeal it, but
defunding it is wrong. More wrong is to hold the entire country, our economy,
jobs, health, safety, security, and education hostage to the Republicans fit of
pique.Shame on Republicans.
Repealing the medical device tax would add 30 billion to the deficit. Ah
nevermind... Republicans don't care about the deficit anyway.
This will end once enough moderate Republicans split off from the Tea Party
types because they see that this does not benefit them long-term. Pres. Obama
has no incentive to move as he looks good by contrast.Former Senator
Bennett called this one a few days ago in the Deseret News. His analysis is
"If one watches the non liberal media, you will find that the Republicans
have offered changes, and sent them to the Senate in the last few days. These
are not reported on mainstream media."First, yes it's being
reported in the mainstream media, so leave the media bias martrydom out of
it.Second, the House is putting out piecemeal funding bills that
cherrypick politically palatable areas to fund. They're doing this onowing
that the Senate will ignore anything less than a full funding CR so that the GOP
can run back to its base and complain about how the Dems won't
compromise.Of course the Dems won't compromise on that. The
reactionaries on the far right have taken the entire government hostage in an
effort to circumvent the legislative process. Authorizing a handful of funding
bills is the equivalent of releasing a few hostages. The Snate rightly insists
that everyone be released.
Editorial board:I think you are right that a compromise might have
served to avert the shutdown. That is not exactly a brilliant statement. The
problem is that there was no desire to compromise in the administration and too
much hubris to even consider it. I'm no Republican but it seems to me they
did try to find some common ground, but were rebuffed. Now what? I
think that the fact that the Republicans are now standing up for the will of the
people, which you do not seem to consider, is heartening and exhilarating. I am
heartily sick of the disdain that the high and mighty have for the people of the
@ 2 bitsYou are missing the most important point: if any congress (gop or
dem) is allowed to change a standing law using a government shutdown tantrum,
the US will have no constitution and no government. That's anarchy, by
definition.If the gop house gets their way, there will be nothing to
stop them from altering any standing law they don't like. Want slavery
back? Close the govt. Want to repeal womens' right to vote? Close down the
govt. That's just one important reason why democrats will stand
against this unconstitutional tactic forever, if necessary.I am
tired of the misinformation and fuzzy thinking coming from gop supporters.
Compromise is about not getting everything either group wants. The Republicans
are seeking to delay the ACA, Democrats are seeking to fund the government and
put people and the economy back to work.Now, Democrats can't
compromise on their side as a functioning government is needed for the stability
of the Country. Republicans keep lowering their demands regarding the ACA but
won't stop offering things that aren't compromised.If you
want to see true compromise from the Democrats, Republicans need to offer up
something that Democrats want for delaying anything with regards to the ACA.Now, imagine if the Republicans offered to pass the Senates version of
Immigration Reform in exchange for a delay of the ACA.How about if
Republicans offered to allow a Public Option for Healthcare for removing the
Individual Mandate that they claim is terrible.You cannot offer to
restore funding to the government only if your demands are met. That is not
compromise, that is extremism and it does lead to terrorism when the group
making the demands don't see any action on them.So, for
compromise, Republicans need to offer something to the Democrats other than
temporarily funding the government.
President Obama is right not to give an inch until the gov't is funded.
Then it's time to talk. By giving in now, he gets nothing in return--and
that is NOT a compromise, that's a "lose" for him.
If one watches the non liberal media, you will find that the Republicans have
offered changes, and sent them to the Senate in the last few days. These are
not reported on mainstream media. What is clearly happening now is Reid and
Obama see this shutdown as to their advantage and actually want it to go on.
So, that is why there is and will be no compromise. If Obama and the Democrats
were getting the majority blame, compromise would be all over the place.
Therefore, even getting rid of a tax that both sides don't like will not
happen per Obama and Reid. However, the mainstream media will never report
that, will they.
Democrats have already comprised by accepting sequester level funding for the
clean CR. Where is the acknowledgement or even any awareness for this important
compromise, in this story? Congressional republicans are as dishonest as this
opinion article.Perfect example of media bias - right wing media
bias. Shame on you!
I would agree IF you mean literally "ALL" need to learn to compromise.
But not if you don't include Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and others.
President Obama would also have to learn to compromise as well, and quit saying,
"there will be NO CHANGES to ObamaCare".Seems like Democrats
could at least look for some kind of bone to throw to the Republicans to give
them an honorable way out, or even agree to READ what they send to the Senate.
Or even make a counter-proposal besides "absolutely NOTHING will change"
and "We won't even READ whatever you send us". That's not
"The demands by some in the GOP for the complete repeal of the Affordable
Care Act, or Obamacare, were unrealistic from the outset, and they are the
primary reason the nation finds itself in this current legislative
standoff"Exactly. In a nutshell. And why the GOP will be
blamed.This has nothing to do with whether the ACA is good or
bad.It IS about using the wrong tool to achieve a goal. It does not become "noble" just because the appropriate congressional
tools have been unsuccessful or that they feel strongly about it.
Sir, you are not only wrong about compromise in this case, you are horribly
wrong. The US CANNOT run on irresponsible brinkmanship forced by the House.
Perhaps you dislike the ACA. Maybe you detest it. That's not the issue
here. The issue is whether or now the US will allow a small group in the House
to literally hold up the nation every three months while demanding whatever they
want but cannot pass through the normal legislative process. Will you be for
"compromise" when breakaway Democrats decide they'll not raise the
debt ceiling unless corporate taxes double? This situation could easily
reverse in that manner, Democrats are hardly under less pressure from the left
than Boehner is from the far right. Obama, though late to realize the actual
nature of this recurring manufactured "crisis", has finally woken up and
come to work. And he's doing the right job If that blocks something
you'd like to see happen, well, tough. This goes beyond issues to whether
or not the House will follow the legislative process in the Constitution or will
just do whatever they please.
Dream on if you think the Dear Leader will compromise unless it gives him a
distinct advantage and makes his critics look bad.
But the Democrats already have compromised. They've agreed to lock the
sequester cuts in place. They're not the ones who are throwing a temper
tantrum trying to get legally enacted legislation changed. You don't
negotiate with terrorists, and that's Ted Cruz and the Tea Party faction of
the House have become. If President Obama and the Democrats yield to them, we
may as well throw the Constitution out the window.Are the hardcore
right-wingers really thinking through the implications of this? Of course they
aren't, and from the looks of things, neither is the DN.
I have no problem with repealing the medical devices tax, but for one thing. The
Republicans will never agree to replace the lost revenue with anything else. So
a vote to repeal the tax, is a vote for higher deficits.