What if we go back to 2008 credit and liquidation freeze? Bet you will notice
No the 800,000 out 3,000,000 won't care; it's a paid vacation that
doesn't count against their leave time. All seventeen times this has
happened they have been fully paid when it was settled. Even when they were
forced home for twenty one days they got full salary for that time. The
object is to get the media to chronicle how the public is inconvenienced. It
has nothing to do with the debt until the US supposedly needs to sell
bonds(raise the credit card limit) which Treasury says will happen on 17
October. Convenient timing but not proven to be a set up by the Secretary of
They are noticing, especially in the context of the attempt to defund already
Well said, djc.I have to shake my head at the naiveté of the
folks here who think that shutting down the government is a *good* thing. It
costs MONEY to mothball significant portions of the federal government, and then
remobilize them again later; in the billions of dollars, I would think.Government spending is a component of GDP, so every government dollar that
would've been spent but is now sitting idle, thanks to the shutdown, is one
less dollar of GDP growth. In real human terms, this is the many contractors and
vendors who just had their government contracts and purchases deferred (or
canceled). Truly, "money is like manure, of very little use except it be
spread." There is also a multiplier-effect to slashing government spending
via the shutdown. Hundreds of thousands of government employees just got
furloughed, so their discretionary spending likely just took a nosedive
(consumer spending is the largest component of GDP). Taken together,
you begin to see the impact on individuals and the economy that the shutdown
will have; and this is small potatoes compared to what will happen if the same
kind of shenanigans ensue with the debt ceiling.
The kind of juvenile "so what" thinking displayed in this editorial
leads to the destructive behavior of our congressional representatives who for
years have refused to construct and adopt a budget. Continued irresponsible
congressional misbehavior puts our democracy (constitutional compound republic
for the radical members of the GOP) at risk.
You really don't think you will notice the loss of 40,000 weekly paychecks
in Utah. I don't know what planet you are from, but in my world the
effects will be felt relatively quickly. My normally bustling building has
exactly 4 people working in it right now. Normally there are at least 100.
That is 96 people who do not get a paycheck for today. If you don't think
that will be felt at the grocery stores, fast food places, and other LOCAL
businesses you are sadly misinformed. This shutdown will eventually effect
every single resident of Utah and every other state. You talk of uninformed
people, but then proceed to make uninformed arguments. One week of this
shutdown will have an over $10 million dollar effect on the economy, just from
paychecks. This doesn't even count lost tourist dollars. I wish I had my
head so far in the sand that I couldn't see what is coming, but sadly I do
have the ability to make reasonable rational decisions. It is a sad time.
I wonder what the house would have done had the Senate sent over spending bill,
with it a mandate for background checks on every weapon and ammo sell.... I
wonder if the house would have considered that bill.... or offered to negotiate
over the added on clause.I am sure it would get the exact same
consideration the House bill got. The last few attempts were... we'll
agree to a budget if you cut off your arm.... or wont do that.... ok if you cut
off your hand... we;ll pass a CR. The "compromises" were no
compromise what so ever. Ok... instead of your wife... I take your
daughter.... will that work for you? No? Well lets have a
conference to agree upon which family member we take....Both sides
are being silly.... both.
Res Novae - Thanks for your comment. It is really unfortunate that so many
people buy into a stereotype portrayed by the uninformed folks in media. Thank
you for serving the soldiers that put their lives on the line for all of us.
Let's hope the Congress can grow up and act their age and get people back
to work, serving the American citizens.
We would probably have a more informed electorate if newspaper CEOs recognized
the responsibility they shoulder in providing the information. Instead,
it's all about "niche news" and getting the most "clicks."
Instead of providing unbiased reports and uncovering truths, it's all about
turning a buck. The DN is no exception.
IF the government shuts down... and the only way most people know is by watching
the drama being created for the news cameras... maybe the Tea Party people are
right. Maybe our government CAN be smaller.Think about it... how
would most Americans know the government was shut down today (If it weren't
for all the endless news coverage)? They wouldn't. This is a "made
for news" event. Without the news reports nobody would even know it was
When it reaches deeper and deeper and all airports shut down because of no
traffic controllers, and the troops revolt because they refuse to fight our wars
for free and their wives and children are evicted and are hungry because food
stamps are very limited now... the beat goes on....?
I am betting Barack could disappear and no one would notice. Disappear onto a
golf course for three years and the country would be so much the better. This
man is a virus.
@ute alumni"maybe the govt. working posters ought to think about
not working for the government, but then they wouldn't have the cushy
cloistered lifetime job they enjoy."There's always a
response like this whenever a government employee speaks up for his colleagues.
I work in DOD. My job is hardly "cushy." I work more hours
than I am actually paid for on high-visibility programs with all the stresses
they entail, and I'm in a constant fight to bring the costs of contractors
down on behalf of taxpayers, in an office last renovated in the Ford
administration. I took pay cut to be here. My job is hardly
"cloistered." I daresay warzone deployments get me out and about far
more than residents of "Paradise, UT".My job is hardly
"lifetime." There are plenty of ways to get walked out of the building
with your personal belongings.Why do I do it? Because I got tired
of seeing American kids dying while I was on the sidelines. The uniformed
personnel I work with represent the best America has to offer, I love them,
I'm proud to serve them, and I believe in the mission.
Youre correct Hutterite. The Market did notice the shutdown. It was up 63
It's pretty offensive to simply write-off 800,000 people as if they
don't matter just because our country is so big. I'll bet if the
DNews suddenly lost all of its funding, Mr. Evensen would care a great deal.
The short answer to bus' question about big government is this: We have big
agriculture, big labor, big (the biggest anywhere, any time) military and most
of all, big business, the goals of which are not necessarily positive to
society. Big government helps us avoid being simply plowed under by these huge
interest blocks.As for the constitutionality of the income tax,
I'd say that's pretty solid ground since the Constitution itself was
amended to allow it. Wilson felt the money might come in handy for engaging in
this little business we now call World War I.
Shutdown consequences include: Nearly 3,000 aviation safety
inspectors are being furloughed by the Federal Aviation Administration as part
of the government shutdown, the union representing the inspectors said
Monday.The inspectors check to make sure airlines are maintaining
their planes safely, conduct inspections at airports of planes and pilots, and
visit domestic and foreign repair stations where airlines send planes for major
overhauls, among other safety jobs, said Kori Blalock Keller, a spokeswoman for
the union, Professional Aviation Safety Specialists.The Centers for
Disease Control and the National Institutes of Health were both hit hard by the
shutdown in 1995. The NIH stopped taking in new patients and the CDC halted
disease surveillance.New applications for passports and visas will
likely be delayed, possibly affecting the LDS missionary program.Processing of new applications for Social Security and Veterans benefits will
Sorry about the word choice. I was wrong. Here is the updatedpoast:And to take advantage of cheaper taxes--MUCH cheaper taxes.Now, in
order to move things back to the United States, companies would have to lose a
lot of money--in the form of taxes--so they continue to keep their money
off-shore.So, you see, taxing a lot works when you own the world but
when the world becomes more-or-less even, higher taxes are extremely hurtful.We do not need higher taxes, we need to figure out how to get more
people working and making or doing things that will allow them to earn higher
salaries. Then we can have enough money to do the things we want to do. Of
course, if there is close to zero percent unemployment, there will be little
need for entitlement spending, so our collective taxes can GO DOWN.
I almost didn't dare go to work this morning. I got up really early in
case the government roads were closed. But everything went fine. No zombies,
no armagedon, no traffic snafoos. Just life like any other day.If
I were a "Non-Essential" government employee I may have been impacted.
But just with an extra vacation day to sit home and watch TV. Because in every
other government shutdown these non-essential workers were given the day off...
but were eventually payed for those days they stayed home.I really
don't think it's going to be the big deal some in the media have
painted it to be.On my drive in I heard someone dramatically
lamenting that, "We have now shutdown the GREATEST invention of man-kind...
the Government". REALLY?This is just more political
grand-standing. They will restart our greatest invention ever...
All of our checks from the government will keep comming... and everythign will
be fine again. Don't worry. Be happy.
maybe the govt. working posters ought to think about not working for the
government, but then they wouldn't have the cushy cloistered lifetime job
they enjoy. we will suffer without their "services".
"The economy boomed when Reagan lowered the tax rate" , no it
didn't. A recession ensued along with record deficits. Then Volcker
squeezed the life out of inflation unleashing nearly a decade of pent up demand
and the economy eventually took off. Regan then had to raise taxes 11 times,
mostly at Volcker's urging to prevent a deficit that set off inflation
again. Read history closely and you'll see that Regan did
everything possible to destroy the progress Volcker was making against inflation
(the problem of the post war economy). Good news Volcker won and Regan lost.
Bad news Republicans think Regan did something other than nearly destroy the
How much does DN do to educate and inform its readers?Several DN
commenters seem unaware of the most basic facts about the ACA--like the fact
that Congress and their staff are now required to select their insurance
providers from the exchanges.I understand controversy sells
newspapers, but DN also needs to do its real job to educate and inform, using
fact-based truthful information.
MarkB, you said: "Mr. Rock, we aren't talking about tax rates here.
This thread is supposed to be concerned with the shutting down of the federal
government, starting tonight. "Why do we need SO MUCH Federal
Government? It most certainly does relate to tax rates. The problem is not
that the Federal Government is partially shutting down, it is all about have too
much Federal Government--which feeds off taxes which is directly related to tax
rates.Remember, this country was going along just fine until Woodrow
Wilson decided an INCOME TAX was a good idea and it was, somehow, deemed to be
How many millions are out of work and how glibly we are told that "things
are getting better" even though we all know it's a lie? How little time has been spent discussing ACAS's unintended consequences
(we hope they were unintended at least) - of putting people on short time and
dissuading small employers from expanding in a time of great recession. But put
less than one million federal employees out of work for even a day or two and
NOW things are bad!
Our grandchildren deserve a populace that respects laws and rules. What will
they shutdown government for to demand their was or economic collapse?
Imagine if every worker in Utah woke up this morning without a job. In fact,
the shutdown impacts more than that number. It's not a trivial thing. But
then Jay Evanson is safe in his little cloistered environment, isn't he.
Yesterday I issued instructions to suspend work for approximately 1000
government contractors. Today I will issue furloughs for 15
'non-excepted' employees after they spend up to 4 hours conducting
'orderly shutdown' procedures. As an 'excepted' employee I
will continue to do work for which I have no guarantee of compensation. Forgive me, Mr. Evensen, for not seeing this as an abstract exercise, or
the latest oddity in Washington partisanship. It also comes on the heels of
furloughs and severe cutbacks associated with the sequestration you so casually
dismiss. Just because it isn't impacting you doesn't mean
it isn't impacting anyone.I'm past being interested in the
blame game. The behavior on the Hill is shameful, and I'm sorely tempted
to report the entire Congress to my Inspector General unit for fraud, waste, and
While I agree with your general sentiment and questioning about life going on
untroubled because for one, people are uninformed, but the facts underlining
your argument is what is is truly troubling. Life WILL be altered for hundreds
of thousands because of this. But then again, for years now, life HAS already
altered for thousands as well do to the greedy actions of a Wall Street few, and
this past year, sequestration HAS affected many families. Why haven't we
talked about that? Most folks lucky to have kept their job this last few years
either aren't aware of the struggles of those affected by structural
changes in the economy, or could care less because their personal fortunes
haven't been affected. Why worry about that 10-15% of those affected, when
it's easier to focus on the 85-90% who seem to be okay?
Most of those 800,000 Federal employees are just ordinary working people who
have mouths to feed and bills to pay. They would care, their families would
care, and the people who need the services they provide would care.Now, if Congress and the President were furloughed, who would notice? It
isn't as if they are working people who actually serve a useful purpose.
I'd trade the whole lot of them for one day of keeping research going at
the Centers for Disease Control or one day of keeping Yosemite open.
Wouldn't it be great if we could just get the 49% Who pay nothing to start
paying their 40%! Takers vrs Makers! Time for a revolt......
Mr. Rock, we aren't talking about tax rates here. This thread is supposed
to be concerned with the shutting down of the federal government, starting
tonight. And, BTW, the Constitution does not contain anything about the
nation's economic system. Please concentrate.
I haven't noticed yet. Can I stop paying taxes? I bet not. But I bet that
even with the government shut down, we are still deficit spending. That is what
is really scary. I hope the Obamas can't take Air Force 1 for
any vacations during the shut down. I hope he had the foresight to go to
Washington before midnight. - Questionable. For a guy who really
wanted to be president, again, he doesn't seem to like being in Washington
I will notice, and I'm pretty sure the rest of the 800,000 will as well. I
have a family to feed and a mortgage to pay. It's all fun and games to
those of you who this doesn't impact, but please remember those of us who
are not going to get a paycheck if this nonsense continues. And we aren't
all corrupt politicians or lazy government paper pushers.
@FreonpsandozWe have a spending problem, not a revenue problem.If the income tax were raised to 100%, how much money would the
government get?Not a stinking red cent. Nobody would work for
nothing. As tax rates increase it destroys incentive. If you raise taxes high
enough tax revenues actually go down. Raise them to 100% and they go all the way
down to zero. The economy boomed when Reagan lowered the tax rate.
Under Obama the poor are hit the hardest. Black teen unemployment is something
like 37%. Poor working people are losing their full time status because of Obama
Care (how is that for compassion?).If you took everything away
produced in manufacturing, mining and agriculture there would be nothing left.
All wealth is created in these three industries. Obama thinks you can stimulate
the economy with government spending. Government consumes wealth, it does not
create it. Obama's plan will make things worse. Much worse.If
you want prosperity you have to obey the laws of economics. You cannot create
prosperity without creating wealth. Strictly follow the constitution and we will
get back on course. Our present government will not do that.
@Social Mod Fiscal ConThe Senate passed a budget earlier this year. The
House had refused to go to the conference committee since the two chambers
passed different versions.
families without a paycheck will notice.
The fact that many people may notice it has shut down is evidence that the
federal government has grown way too big.
Too late. The stock market noticed.
Anarchy for sure! not! is there any way we could make this last for a
Freonpsandoz, MarxistAccording to a recent article by Forbes, the
top 400 wealthiest American's have a net worth of just over $2 trillion.
So even if you took every single penny they have, and taxed them at 100% after,
you still wouldn't touch the debt of the US. But please,
don't let common sense blind you.
The Senate hasn't passed a budget in over 5 years. Nobody seems to be all
that worked up over that. In fact, how many people even know? And out of those
that know, how many realize how criminally stupid that is?Perhaps 5 years
from now we'll be talking about how the government has been shut down for 5
years and nobody really cares!
Don't worry, the White House and the media are working hard to make sure
everyone notices...and blames the Republicans. Even though it is Reid and Obama
that have planned this shutdown for weeks now, maybe even months.
Freonpsandoz and marxist, do you also want to go back to the pre-1986
deductibility of personal interest? And eliminate the EIC? And restore other
deductions, tax loopholes/shelters/breaks that existed when marginal rates were
higher? I've read many claims that few taxpayers ever really paid taxes at
those high marginal rates, due to the myriad ways of sheltering income from
these rates. And thus those high rates never really harmed the economy (but did
cause some capital to be directed towards bad investments)Going back
to the old system might have great economic benefits. After all, if personal
interest on car loans were 100% deductible, people might buy a new car every
year or two to take advantage of the tax break.Are you really
advocating going back to taxing 20% (1960 rate) of the first dollar of taxable
income? That would be about $6000 tax on the first $30,000 taxable income in
how about if we just shut down the White House...for about 3 years?? BO can
spend his time on late night entertainment shows and the golf course. I guess
not much would change would it.
Freonpsandoz, you are spot on. There would be no debt crisis were the old rates
in place. But it is a waste of time mentioning such here, alas.
"we need one [government] that pays its bills and quits running up
debt..." I wholeheartedly agree. And the way to do that is to discard
Reagan's failed trickle-down economics and go back to the tax structure
that we had 50-70 years ago when the US economy was booming and the middle class
was healthy and growing. All tax rates were higher then, and the tax rates on
the highest earners was upwards of 80%.
I bet those 800,000 government workers would care.