JSH v.33:"... my name should be had for good and evil among all
nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken
of among all people."This comment board has been a small example
of the proof of this prophecy.
I've studied the life of Joseph Smith in considerable detail over the
years. I own about everything ever published by the Church covering his
life's adventures. I've also studied volumes of information
concerning a less that favorable light.It's unfortunate that so much
is swept under the rug.
to: 1.96 standard deviationsI think everyone agrees that there were
people who knew Joseph who liked him, and thought he was a prophet of God (just
like people today know Warren Jeffs and believe that he is also a prophet). I
guess my point was, it would be advantageous for people to read the accounts of
the people who didn't have good things to say about his character and his
actions. So many believers won't even read those accounts, they call it
"anti-mormon" and lies. If you are going to read and believe the
accounts of the people who liked him you should also look into the other side of
the equation as well.
Here is another statement from someone who knew Joseph Smith personally. Let me
introduce, Emmeline B. Wells, to you both -- Church Member and Hutterite:"In the Prophet Joseph Smith, I believed I recognized the great
spiritual power that brought joy and comfort to the Saints. . . . He was beyond
my comprehension. The power of God rested upon him to such a degree that on many
occasions he seemed transfigured. His expression was mild and almost childlike
in repose; and when addressing the people, who loved him it seemed to adoration,
the glory of his countenance was beyond description. At other times the great
power of his manner, more than of his voice (which was sublimely eloquent to me)
seemed to shake the place on which we stood and penetrate the inmost soul of his
hearers, and I am sure that then they would have laid down their lives to defend
him. I always listened spell-bound to his every utterance—the chosen of
God in this last dispensation."-Emmeline B. WellsSource: JosephSmith dot net
1.96 Standard DeviationsGood quote! Compare that "fact" to
the "feelings" expressed by the "naysayers".
EternalPerspective,cSeeking truth. A testimony of the Book of Mormon
comes by the power of the Holy Ghost— Moroni’s words speak from the
‘dust’. Compare poor KJV translation to(Latin vulgate,
Is 29:4), and thy speech shall whisper out of the ‘dust’. and thy
voice shall be from the earth like that of the “*pythonis=(familiar
spirit)”, and out of the earth thy speech shall mutter.. From,
Acts 16:16 And it came to pass , as we went to prayer a certain damsel
possessed with a spirit of divination= (*python/Gr,=4436) met us which
brought her masters much gain by soothsaying . (Latin Vulgate 1
Sam 28:7) And Saul said to his servants: Seek me a woman that hath a divining
spirit=( *pythonem/familiar spirit), and I will go to her, and enquire by her.
And his servants said to him: There is a woman that hath a divining
spirit=(*pythonem)[witch]at Endor.In Greek mythology, Pythian a
serpent dwelt in the region of Pytho at Parnassus in Phocis, said to have
guarded the oracle at Delphi and been slain by Apollo. 2. a spirit of
Church memberSeeking truth is a valiant trait to desire what the
world and humanity cannot give. Therein resides the greatest challenge to not
esteem truth as solely what the physical senses can perceive. For the mysteries
of God are only given by spiritual means to those who not only seek truth
diligently, but are sufficiently humble, sincere, and strive with a purity of
intent to receive His grace over the world and endure all things.This is the grand secret of faith that those who refuse to exercise it with
full purpose of heart do not understand. One cannot set their heart upon the
things of the world and expect the knowledge of God to descend upon them to
discern the works of man from the works of God. This cannot be done exclusively
through the scriptures as many claim of the Bible being the final word of God.
Nor can one just "will" it so by good works. Man cannot invent what
only God can give.One gains absolution concerning the correct
nature, character, and plan of God by forsaking the world and submitting their
will to Him just as Jesus did to the Father.
Church member and Hutterite:How about we give you guys another
statement from someone who knew Joseph Smith personally? You two ought to
reconsider your opinion of Joseph Smith. Here is what Daniel D. McArthur said of
the Prophet Joseph Smith:"To me he [Joseph Smith] seemed to
possess more power and force of character than any ordinary man. I would look
upon him when he was with hundreds of other men, then he would appear greater
than ever."My testimony is that he was a true Prophet of the living
God; and the more I heard his sayings and saw his doings the more I was
convinced that he had of a truth seen God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ,
as also the holy angels of God. I cannot call to mind that I ever had a doubt
enter my heart, since I first heard the gospel preached . . . as to his being a
true Prophet. It always seemed to me that if I ever did know anything on this
earth I surely knew that he was a Prophet."Source: JosephSmith
Well, let me comment. First of all you call yourself a Church member. Now you
ask me to question everything and test it with facts and research. What facts
and research as you know it would prove there is a God? Let's begin there.
If you as a Church member have a belief in God, it comes from the same place as
my faith. If you don't believe in God, then what Church are you a member
To m.g. scottQuestion everything you have been taught. If something
really is true then it will stand the test of facts and research. If it is not
true then you won't have to waste your life following something that is not
true. Don't ever be afraid to look at ALL the facts.By the way,
is a feeling always accurate?? Could it ever be wrong??
m.g. scottWell said and a good direct point. We as Mormons are
counseled to be Christ-like at all times and all places. Yet, if we only show
restraint and fail to affirm truth by declaring our testimony of what God has
revealed directly unto us by personal revelation because we fear offending
others, then are we truly standing as witnesses we ought to be?Jesus
exemplified love and service to others when in mortality. But, He was not
afraid to rebuke the Pharisees and Sadducees for their evil thoughts and deeds
that were hypocritical. There is also no mistaking the sternness of Jesus
chasing out the money changers from "His Father's House" in the
temple. In fact temples have always been a central part of God's authority
when it has been on the earth.I digress, but needless to say, who
today that denies the power of God on the earth with the same patterns that
exist in the Bible, would in reality, have believed differently then the
Pharisees and Sadducees when Jesus walked the earth in mortal form? Why does
the world hate the pure truths of God when it "loveth its own"?
Because someone has critical thoughts doesn't make them an evil naysayer.
Quit using that word it rings of a lack of education. Debating over historical
information and points of view is only good for you and the church. It is also
silly to say "Sure Joseph wasn't perfect." Don't be afraid of
the details of his life. He had major issues and likely some practices that many
would consider horrible, at the same time he and his contemporaries were able to
create and manage a narrative compelling enough to engage the the attention of
devotion of someone like an educated like Oaks more than 150 years later. As
more information is put forward about Smith and the Book of Mormon then our
understanding will evolve...inevitable.
Dallin Oaks is an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. I take his words as having
much more truth and validity than any of you naysayers. But I do read you
people. Nothing any of you have ever said has in any way changed my mind or
most importantly what I know to be the truth. When someone with the authority
of an Apostle speaks, I'll listen. Ask yourselves if you would have
listened to an Apostle in the days of Jesus. I'll bet many of you would
say yes if it was back then, but not today because you don't believe in
Apostles today. I suspect many wouldn't have believed then either, even
though they think they would have.
@Ranch14.7M is probably an accurate number. Your
analysis is moot.Example: the number of amateur radio operators
includes me even though I have not operated a radio in 30+ years and have
forgotten much. I still have a license. I am still counted. They were baptized.
They are still counted. BTW, my license will expire in 10 years unless I renew
it. Their membership on earthly rolls will expire when they die (or ask to be
removed). That's how it works.
to the comments made by HuetteriteBecause someone who has enemies
who choose to press libelous charges in court, doesn't mean he is guilty of
those charges. It was just because of those activities, that it became illegal
for law officials to arrest both national and state senators and representatives
for misdemeanor charges. In the 17 and 1800s these actions were used to prevent
government officials from getting to their legislature to vote on close
bills.Also, look at others who have been pulled into court with
trumped up charges and were not guilty. Jeremiah the prophet, Christ, and Moses
are just a few that come to mind. During the reformation, nearly all of the
reformists spent significant time in jail because their enemies brought up
frivalous charges.Even in our day, it is not uncommon for someone to
either threaten or actually press charges against people or organizations to
either extract money from them or to get them to move or change direction; many
times these charges have no basis but the charging party knows the accused
can't, won't, or knows its is to costly to fight and therefore
RE: FT1/SSThe best source is to read his own words. It's obvious the
skeptics on here hav'nt bothered. True, That seer… his
name shall be called Joseph(Smith), and it shall be after the name of his
father. ( Genesis 50:33 JST) Joseph Smith Jr.,” Joseph son of
Jacob, prophesied of the future mission of the Prophet JS twenty-four hundred
years before the LDS prophet was born…(50:33 JST ).(Religious truth
defined by Joseph Fielding Smith, (p.256-257).
RE: That seer… his name shall be called Joseph(Smith), and it shall be
after the name of his father. ( Genesis 50:33 JST) @EternalPerspective, He had to learn line upon line over the course of time
and many trials just like the rest of us.Precept upon precept; line upon
line, Isa 28:10 KJV is a mistranslated text of scripture.In the footnotes
of most modern Bibles, the passage is really God’s sarcastic indictment
against Israel’s leaders for turning His word into a list of rules,
repeated endlessly to the people as if they were little children, barely able to
understand. In Hebrew the passage is like a child’s rhyme.
@Veritas Aequitas;The actual number is much less than the 14.7
reported. Outside of Utah, the LDS church is lucky, very lucky, to have a 35%
attendance rate. In many foreign countries, the after baptism retention rate is
much, much lower. You honestly can't consider someone a member if
they've been baptized, went to church a couple dozen times and then never
come back. You also can't honestly consider someone a member who has left
the church but doesn't take their name from the rolls (the LDS church
doesn't require new converts to submit a letter to their former
congregation "resigning", so it really isn't necessary when leaving
the LDS church for another either).In conclusion, 14.7 is way, way
The best source is to read his own words. It's obvious the skeptics on here
How many great leaders in history have been tainted by biased views, propaganda,
and rumors that end up going down in accounts as so called "fact"? Was Joseph Smith perfect because the Lord called him to be a prophet of
the latter day dispensation of the fullness of times? Not remotely.Did Joseph Smith know all things at once because he was the prophet? Not at
all. He had to learn line upon line over the course of time and many trials
just like the rest of us. His sufferings were greater than any of us can
imagine just like prophets of old.Why do so many people care about
Joseph Smith who hate him, or was this not a fulfillment of the prophecy that
his name would be had for good and evil in all the world?It's
always interesting to me how many people fight against the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints and persecute the doctrine, people, and practices.
Yet, they know very little of substance having depth, but repeat the same rumors
that existed in the days of Joseph Smith. The world resides in darkness but the
light of truth pentrates it all.
The answer may still be blowing in the wind,but the truth isn't too far off
as more information is exposed to the light o day.
Church memberNorth Salt Lake, UT===14.7
million people would agree...
Joseph Smith gave lip service to the Constitution in the cause of Mormon rights
with regard to it clashes with other Americans. But his autocratic
civic-leadership methods in Nauvoo raise questions about his basic understanding
of the concept of constitutional government.Granted, a national
understanding of the nature of our Federalism was still in a formative stage in
the Age of Jackson. But I don’t see it crystalized in Joseph Smith’s
‘Views of the Powers and Policy of the Government of the United
States’ which he published when he ran for President in 1844. It offers
insight into Joseph Smith’s understanding of American history under the
Constitution. It also provides his ideas on such issues as slavery and
territorial expansion. Overall, it reads more like a sustained diatribe than a
well thought out and reasoned Presidential platform. The historian Bernard
DeVoto described it as apocalytic. I concur.You can read the full
text in the Documentary History of the Church and judge for yourself.
Joseph was a spiritual man with a native brilliance. He didn't start out
great but be became great due to perseverance and some great tutelage.
With all due respect there seems to be a lot of information available, some of
it dating back to the time of Smith, that portrays him in circumstances that
would warrant different adjectives. I'm sure I'll be called down for
it, but there had to be something to it.
He was a great story teller. That is for sure.