Salt Lake man planned 'to kill as many as possible' at City Creek, police say

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  • GiuseppeG Murray, Utah
    Sept. 27, 2013 2:11 p.m.

    Re: mark

    [Can you name one piece of legislation that is actually under consideration that would take away your guns?...But neither Kenya, nor what happened in the mall in Kenya, has anything to do with this discussion]

    YES..I can think of several. But I’m sure in this internet age you can do your own research if you choose to…however I was responding to others' posts calling for new gun ban laws.

    Missing your second point. Are you saying that because we don’t live in Kenya we don’t need to worry about some crazy shooting up a mall here? That potential is what has others on this thread ranting about getting rid of guns. People can say they believe access to firearms in our country is too easy and causes mass killings. And I will strongly argue against. I don’t believe it. But I still accept that as their opinion. But it makes no sense to me to proffer an argument to limit citizens’ access to firearms because we don’t have a firearm problem here. Ya gotta pick.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 26, 2013 2:58 p.m.

    "Mark: It was not me doing the comparing to russia & Luxembourg, but professors of law at Harvard University. And they suggest you are wrong in saying that "It doesn't apply." "

    Yeah, meta, I understand its not you comparing the countries, but the professors. So I read the paper, and I think it is rather flawed. Sorry, can't go into an indepth analysis, this being my last two hundred words on this article, and also because I really don't want to. But I will say they are suffering from the same problem I pointed out initially: they are trying to compare violence between Russia and the USA (and other countries). And they are trying to make an argument based solely on a claim that the amount of guns in each country is the main determiner of violence in the country.

    What causes violence and gun violence is far more complicated then a single factor. They are trying to drastically oversimplify a very complex situation.

    I just don't think their study is worth very much in trying determine causes of violence, let alone possible curbs on it.

    Sept. 26, 2013 2:51 p.m.

    Hey md: You have every inalienable right to pack a gun in Utah, it's called open carry. But hey maybe it is not for you. And now that he's in jail for something that he only planed to do, and not something he had not done, do's that make it any less costly to the tax payer's? Oh and how do you feel about universal back ground checks now that this and the ship yard shooting happened?

  • metamoracoug metamora, IL
    Sept. 25, 2013 11:00 a.m.

    Mark: It was not me doing the comparing to russia & Luxembourg, but professors of law at Harvard University. And they suggest you are wrong in saying that "It doesn't apply." Here's why:

    Startling as the foregoing may seem, it represents the cross‐
    national norm, not some bizarre departure from it. If the man‐
    tra “more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less
    death” were true, broad based cross‐national comparisons
    should show that nations with higher gun ownership per cap‐
    ita consistently have more death. Nations with higher gun
    ownership rates, however, do not have higher murder or sui‐
    cide rates than those with lower gun ownership. Indeed many
    high gun ownership nations have much lower murder rates.

    More pointedly, in this cited study, the authors present data showing that states that had enacted conceal carry laws had seen DRAMATIC drops in violent crime. And this is very pertinent to the on-going discussion of restrictive gun laws.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 25, 2013 10:37 a.m.


    You said: "So I'd prefer not to give up my right to protect myself. . . "

    Can you name one piece of legislation that is actually under consideration that would take away your guns?

    You also mention Kenya and their gun laws. I will assume they are strict. But neither Kenya, nor what happened in the mall in Kenya, has anything to do with this discussion. Kenya is a very different culture in very different circumstances. It's like the comparison to Russia and Luxemburg that someone else did. It doesn't apply. If you want to compare to other countries try another first world country that is similar in culture, like Germany or Canada.

  • metamoracoug metamora, IL
    Sept. 25, 2013 10:24 a.m.

    The authors of the study are Don Kates and Gary Mauser. The title of the study is "Would banning firearms reduce murders & suicides."

  • Learner Sacramento, CA
    Sept. 25, 2013 12:16 a.m.

    The individual is so unhappy. He needs a friend.

  • GiuseppeG Murray, Utah
    Sept. 24, 2013 10:35 p.m.


    So I suspect you didn't take the time to look up the Kenyan gun laws. If not, I don't know why I should bother, but the point is....since you so obviously missed that all those gun laws didn't protect anyone in that mall. I'm not saying that someone carrying would have necessarily prevented it, but for certain passing all those laws didn't help. So I'd prefer not to give up my right to protect myself for any silly knee-jerk law depriving me of that right that doesn't, in the end, protect anyone.

  • carman Wasatch Front, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 5:06 p.m.

    LDS Liberal:

    Thank you for the ad personam argument. Name calling makes you look really intelligent.

    My argument is not that sane law abiding citizens SHOULD carry a firearm (that is a personal choice that should be allowed in a free society as long as one has not surrendered that right through poor behavior), but that every sane, law-abiding citizen should always and foreve have the RIGHT to do so. No government can protect you from criminal elements intent on doing harm. And given that certain criminals and thugs by definition will not obey any gun law written, law abiding citizens should have the right to keep and bear arms.

    BTW, my radical position happens to be the constitutional law of the land.

  • jskains Orem, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 2:13 p.m.

    @atl134 - "(you're not going to get stabbed to death if you handed over the Wii U)."

    Cool, you have magic powers that can tell the future! You should use that for stock-market powers rather than wasting time on the internet! Sorry bud, but I am OK with protecting myself. He made the decision to threaten me. Sorry if I don't buy into your nanny-state vision and just sit there and be a victim.

  • fortydam OREM, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 2:05 p.m.

    Neither arming everyone, or disarming everyone is the answer! If everyone is packing, then shootouts will happen more often. If nobody is carrying then the bad guy shoots away. Please don't think that just anyone can carry responsibly, or then anyone having a bad day could go off on a shooting rampage. Back in the wild wild west, it was just that! In the east where gun laws were strict,shootings happened less often, in the west well... it got it's name because anyone could carry and you could shoot anybody by feeling threatened, so people just shot first. I have guns, I love to hunt, but I'm smart enough to realize that letting the population pack is a very bad idea!

  • Outdoorsman2 Gold Canyon, AZ
    Sept. 24, 2013 11:31 a.m.

    There is somethng really fishy about this story... the man supposedy planned to commit his heinous acts on Sept 25 (2 days from now), yet he had yet to obtain 'silencers'.

    Well. since the process to buy silencers/suppressors is very highly regulated and requires a great deal of paperwork and lead time to accomplish, I think his planning was about nine months too late.

    A good lawyer will point out this fallacy in no time flat.

    I'm not advocaing for the guy, just seems there is a lot unexplained in this story.

  • DCHew Bounti, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 11:11 a.m.

    It would have been a shootout before police responders because many of us in the city creek area proudly carry under our Second Amendment. I think it would have been quite a scene with a very dead perpetrator and no trial costs.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 10:49 a.m.

    "The individual was willing to kill ME over a $199 console."

    And you pulled a gun on him so you both were considering it (you're not going to get stabbed to death if you handed over the Wii U).

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 10:36 a.m.

    What a way to remember the anniversary of your mother's passing... by bringing that pain to as many other people as possible?

    I don't get where people now days think shooting up the place is a valid response to being upset, being wronged by another, etc. Maybe it's the games or the movies, I don't know. But I know in my youth (although we had guns)... we didn't go around shooting up the place if we were upset or having a bad day.

  • Hemlock Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 10:29 a.m.

    Provo, UT

    Are you implying that Nordstroms is a safe haven if there is an attack? If so, Trolley Square and the Kenyan mall may be hoping for a Nordstroms.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 10:22 a.m.

    " see Luxembourg and Russia"

    Luxembourg and Russia? Really? That's what you are comparing the USA to for gun fatalities? Luxembourg and Russia?

    "And I am sorry to tell you this, but he will first protect his life and mine if there is ever an attack,"

    As he should, MoJules, which would involve leaving the area. And I hate to break it to you, but if he has to go up against someone with an M16, er. . . excuse me, AR15, with a 30 round magazine, he is going to lose. See this isn't the movies, and in real life these things happen very fast. Even well trained police officers have a very hard time hitting target when in a gun fight.

    So while I am all for personal carry rights and gun ownership (within reason), I gotta tell all you wanna be Rambo's the odds of you saving the day are very slim. You even got a guy here that thinks if he'd had his pop gun in Kenya he could have limited the fatalities. Some of you guys live in a fantasy world.

  • jskains Orem, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 9:56 a.m.

    @LDS Liberal - You seem a bit confused. The individual was willing to kill ME over a $199 console.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 9:44 a.m.


    Your hypocrisy is showing; you demand the right to carry a weapon yet want to ban the civil rights of lgbt couples. The only reason I'm pointing this out is because of the hypocrisy.

  • Cougar always Alpine, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 9:40 a.m.

    To Metamoracoug - a link or other identifier for the Harvard study you referenced would be very helpful to all.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 9:28 a.m.

    Orem, UT

    I personally had an incident where someone tried to kill me over a Wii-U. He had a knife. I exposed my firearm. He ran off. Would you have felt better if I were killed, cause the cops couldn't be contacted, nor could get there in time to save me?
    8:48 a.m. Sept. 24, 2013


    Let me get this straight ---
    You'd kill or be killed over a $199 video game?

    Mormon was right --
    a materialistic society is ripe for it's own destruction.

  • MoJules Florissant, MO
    Sept. 24, 2013 9:05 a.m.

    For all you anti gun people, you have the right not to carry a gun. I know this can't idea can't get into your brain, but I will say it, those people who do the violent killing, will find guns or other means to kill. I will be very content to have my husband by my side while he carries. And I am sorry to tell you this, but he will first protect his life and mine if there is ever an attack, there could be victims, but the more responsible people who carry are out there, the better chance you won't get hurt. But it is like food storage, a family that has supplies, has to feed their family first. So if your ever at a mall, and someone starts shooting, you start praying that there are people who can stop the person because they carry.

  • Charlemagne Salt Lake City, Utah
    Sept. 24, 2013 9:02 a.m.

    Aaron Alexis showed that a person doesn't need an AR15 or "other high capacity killing machine" to kill a lot of people. He used a pump shotgun a type of weapon that has been around and in common usage since the 1890s! The fact is even if a ban was successful (and it wouldn't be check out how well Prohibition worked)criminals psychopaths and terrorists would still be able to use all sorts of other means to kill large numbers of innocent people!

  • RBB Sandy, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 9:01 a.m.

    No the ability to conceal carry would not have prevented what happened in Kenya, but it may have reduced the bloodshed. Nearly all of the mass shootings have occurred in "gun free zones." The few instances where someone has tried a mass shooting where others are armed usually ended with the perp being short after he killed a couple of people. Ideal? no. But I would rather than 2 dead + the perp. than a dozen or more.

    Look how well Illinois' strict gun laws have worked. Chicago has more gun homicides in a month than Utah has in a year, though each has a similar population and Utah has much more liberal gun laws.

    Talk to many Americans 60+ and they will tell you about how they used to take their guns to school and put them in their locker. Why didn't we have many mass shootings in the 40s, 50s, 60s? The problem is not the guns. We have a sickness in society where we no longer value human life. Until we work on curing that we will not solve the problem.

  • jskains Orem, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 8:48 a.m.

    @Eliyahu No one is drilling anything into you. No one wants to force you to do anything. People simply want their rights to remain available for them to protect their friends and family how they see fit. I personally had an incident where someone tried to kill me over a Wii-U. He had a knife. I exposed my firearm. He ran off. Would you have felt better if I were killed, cause the cops couldn't be contacted, nor could get there in time to save me?

  • jskains Orem, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 8:44 a.m.

    Just so I am clear, the anti-gun folks would feel much better if he planned to use pipe bombs and pressure cookers, or perhaps even plow through a crowd with a car, as long as it isn't a gun, right? Your focus on the tool is overly annoying and it provides no value to the debate. These people will do harm no matter how many gun laws we enact. Worse, they will move to scarier methods, like u-hauls full of fertilizer, to do their harm.

  • Eliyahu Pleasant Grove, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 8:18 a.m.

    I'm still a bit befuddled by the constant litany from the Right that, in order to be safe, all we need are more guns and more prisons. We already have over two hundred thirty million guns in civilian hands and we already have the most prisoners and the highest per-capita rate of incarceration of any nation in the world. If the "guns and jails" approach actually worked, we would be, by far, the safest country in the history of mankind.

    Back in my native Brooklyn, I felt pretty safe going anywhere unarmed. When I lived in California, Washington, Tennessee, Georgia, Texas and Maine, there was no need for me to have a gun. (I'll concede that I did carry my Army-issued M14 and M16 while stationed in Korea and Vietnam.) Here, though, in Utah County, it's being drilled into me that the only way I can be safe in this tough neighborhood is to be armed to the teeth and be ready to get the drop on my neighbors.

  • metamoracoug metamora, IL
    Sept. 24, 2013 7:58 a.m.

    A study, recently released by the Harvard Law School, provides a very broad perspective and how useless gun laws are. Those areas that have the strictest gun laws are also those that have the highest murder rates -- see Luxembourg and Russia. The same is true within a country. Those places with the strictest gun laws are also the ones with the highest murder rates. The liberal authors of the study confessed it was not what they expected to find.

  • raybies Layton, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 7:29 a.m.

    This guy sounds like a really mean man.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 6:50 a.m.

    Sounds like a dangerous adverse reactions to his anti-depressant meds to me.

    BTW - carman
    8:14 p.m. Sept. 23, 2013
    [and the rest of you pro-gun 2nd amendment Chuck Norris wanna bes...]

    This is America - Not the Gaza Strip or Somalia.

    I shouldn't HAVE to be carrying ANYTHING to protect myself and my family to go to City Creek to go shopping, ride TRAX, or the movies!

    A universal background check would have been sufficient to stop this guy.

    A simple interview in a hospital was enough to stop this guy, and guys like you are against even THAT!

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 6:48 a.m.

    What is wrong with people?

    @DN Subscriber 2 & GiuseppeG;

    It is because we allow people like this to have guns in the first place that you need a gun to protect yourself.

  • md Cache, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 6:43 a.m.

    @2bits He only had planned to purchased the guns. It doesn't say that he actually succeeded in purchasing the guns. So, the background check didn't fail in this instance.

    @toosmart... Hopefully it won't happen, but someday, you may be very grateful for the guy next to you who is carrying a weapon...

    This guy said that he would surrender if the police showed up because they are "faster shots" than him. From the girth of his neck, I would say most of us would be faster shots. One opposing gun may bring this guy to surrender way sooner than waiting for a cop to show up. Waiting sure didn't help our disarmed military members, on base, from having many killed. How about arming our military, allowing the rest of us our inalienable right to bear arms, and providing mental health care for those who are truly crazy?

  • Lone Eagle Aurora, CO
    Sept. 24, 2013 6:41 a.m.

    Hey Des News: just what is an "automatic handgun"? Did you mean semi-automatic? I thought automatic weapons of any kind were highly restricted. What is the dealer doing selling automatic weapons?

  • BB4683 Patchogue, NY
    Sept. 24, 2013 6:34 a.m.

    Often times a guy like this has no mental health record because he hasn't quite "snapped" yet but has simmered and plotted his big event for years while staying under the radar. This is why AR-15's and other high capacity killing machines should be banned.

    I am for the Second Amendent, but I also interpret "well-regulated militia" as meaning it should not be possible for one-day mass murderers like him to plot and carry out a mass shooting with a gun he bought legally. There's nothing "well-regulated" about that.

  • BYUalum South Jordan, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 6:32 a.m.

    Carman and DNS2: AMEN! Protect our 2nd Amendment rights.

  • Hurteau Auburn, MA
    Sept. 24, 2013 5:35 a.m.

    So this guy goes to a hospital with "issues",,, talks with a "crisis" worker, and he get's arrested.

    Uhhmm,, the guy wants to talk rather than act on his urges so he seeks help, and gets arrested,,,

    I'm trying to wrap my head around this.

    If someone is at witts end and knows he needs help, but also knows he'll get arrested if he seeks help why should he try to get help?

    Where does one go when they need help?

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 2:29 a.m.

    Good guys become bad guys by pulling triggers.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 24, 2013 12:30 a.m.

    "You can't get silencers at a gun show. They are highly regulated and you have to have a SERIOUSLY good reason to own one."

    2bits, sorry to break it to you, but you don't have to have a reason, serious or otherwise, to own a silencer in Utah (or many other states). There is a small amount of paperwork, you'll have to submit fingerprints, and the signature of your local police chief, but no specific reason. And yes, it is relatively easy to do. (If you can't get your police chief signature, contact an attorney that can set up a special trust for you that will allow you to get the silencer.) I guess "highly regulated" is relative. You want a suppressor? You don't have a crimanal record? You are a citizen? Start the process to get one.

    DN subscriber? You think you and your little concealed weapon could have stopped what happened in Kenya? Really? Yeah, you and John McClane. Yippie ki yay. . .

  • DN Subscriber 2 SLC, UT
    Sept. 23, 2013 10:06 p.m.

    People like this are out there, along with actual terrorists.

    Some people think that a "no guns allowed" sign will keep killers out, but that was a dismal failure at Trolley Square.

    Other people recognize that there are wolves, sheep and sheep dogs, and prudently prepare to act as sheep dogs in case wolves attack. Police officers are clearly sheep dogs, and so are private citizens who have taken the steps to legally carry a self defense weapon.

    Given this case, and the Kenya attack, and Trolley Square killings, people really should think about possible dangers, and possible countermeasures for their own protection. And, those who choose to do nothing are welcome to make that choice, but please do not take away the choice from those who chose to have a means of self defense.

  • mh11 Omaha, NE
    Sept. 23, 2013 9:11 p.m.

    Why devote so much airtime to a sick criminal's plan? Isn't it enough to say it was a detailed plan, rather than unfolding every detail? What will the next idle, sick mind think when reading such things? And I would add a little more praise for the law enforcement who stopped it.

  • GiuseppeG Murray, Utah
    Sept. 23, 2013 8:43 p.m.

    toosmartforyou....see what just happened in the Nairobi, Kenya mall and look up their gun laws.

  • southmtnman Provo, UT
    Sept. 23, 2013 8:36 p.m.

    Yes, Carman, I, too, love the peace of mind I get when I have to pack heat while shopping at Nordstroms.

  • toosmartforyou Farmington, UT
    Sept. 23, 2013 8:24 p.m.

    Yes, carman, let's give everybody a gun and then we'll all be safer. I get it.

  • carman Wasatch Front, UT
    Sept. 23, 2013 8:14 p.m.

    This is why sane, law-abiding citizens should always and forever have the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. We have the right in a free society to protect ourselves from the thugs and scum who will always be around.

  • aazyzx MILFORD, UT
    Sept. 23, 2013 8:05 p.m.

    A West Valley police officer interviewed this suspect of August 12 and he is just now being charged? Sam Gill is the DA? The suspect was planning to buy guns? This story has too many holes in it!

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 23, 2013 7:55 p.m.

    How does a guy in this mental state and with this goal in mind buy two automatic hand guns and silencers?

    Obviously the screening system doesn't work (if guys like this can still buy guns).

    I'm glad they caught him in time.. but we have to make the screening process better if he got screened and approved to buy these guns. You can't get silencers at a gun show. They are highly regulated and you have to have a SERIOUSLY good reason to own one.

  • toosmartforyou Farmington, UT
    Sept. 23, 2013 7:41 p.m.

    So they were so concerned that a judge granted bail to this sick person. He needs treatment, not unlimited access to weapons and public places. Does he have to actually go through with it to be committed or arrested and not just turned out onto the streets?

    Something's fishy with our legal system when psychopaths can murder at will and we don't do thing one about it. At least they didn't wait until Sept 26 and then decide the guy was serious.