How to see a woman: A conversation between a father and son

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  • wrz Phoenix, AZ
    Nov. 1, 2013 11:22 a.m.

    This father's advise is nonsense. The task mother nature assigned the human female is to be attractive... to attract a mate. That is inborn in almost all women from puberty on. Any guy who looks upon the women and does not admire her beauty, including sexual beauty, night need help of some sort.

    Guarantee if the female does not do her job as described above and if the guy takes seriously the advise of this father, the human race would eventually become extinct. Families begin when the female attracts and the male responds. This is biology 101.

    As to who is the stronger sex? On average, the male is the physically stronger. However, if we are talking about power, the female is the more powerful simply because of her control over, and ability to effectively use and apply the human sex drive.

  • Erika Salem, Utah
    Oct. 30, 2013 3:35 p.m.

    Why wait until you "catch him looking"? Prepare them young to look on the inside of people -- not just women, but everyone. It's a fabulous message, but why limit the audience and the timing?

  • Millsap fan Taylorsville, UT
    Sept. 11, 2013 5:43 p.m.

    I think people are misunderstanding what the writer is talking about. As a married man, I can see a woman and say she is pretty. What the writer is talking about is lust. Undressing with the eyes. That is not acceptable and anyone who says it is has issues.

  • Voice of Reason Layton, UT
    Sept. 11, 2013 8:14 a.m.

    I read this letter, and not once did I think the good pastor was in any way "denying sexual attraction" and telling his son to ignore his sex drive. Those on here who are posturing about how futile it is to deny his son of all sexual desire are tilting at straw men...people will find what they're looking for, and these folks were looking for the mythical religious stereotype of the frigid cult fanatic who thinks all sex is sin. Some just desperately need to believe that that's the norm among the faithful, even though it's the extremely rare exception.

    I immediately got the message he was sending, and in summary it was a very eloquent message about not objectifying women as mere sex objects. Yes, his son will be sexually attracted to girls & women and thank God for that wonderful reality, but now he (hopefully) won't be ONLY sexually attracted to them, so he'll be attracted to her in every sense of the word and live a full life of happiness and joy through raising a family with the love of his life.

  • Kimber Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 12:18 p.m.

    I think this is a good article. And I would like to add that I myself (and most women and girls I know) dress how we do because of colors and styles we like (not because we are thinking of how men think we look in them). I agree with this article that people need to hold themselves responsible for how they think of others (whether it's because of clothes or other looks they have) Thanks for the insight here....

  • U of U Fan Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 9:43 a.m.

    I have mixed feelings about this article. While I fully agree with the message, it might cause a young man to think that he should ignore his physical attraction to the opposite sex. You see, I was in this situation over 20 years ago. I was told exactly what is in this article and I believed it. I ended up marrying a girl that I was not physically attracted to - but she was a nice, "sweet spirit". I am still married, but I haven't been as happy as I could have been. While my wife is still that "sweet spirit" and I do love her, I have never been attracted physically to her, and that has caused my happiness to be several notches below what it could be.

    Be careful with true, but one-sided messages that we give to the youth. They might deny the other, but true side of the equation, to their detriment.

  • Brother Benjamin Franklin Orem, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 1:00 a.m.

    This is not good advice, in my humble opinion. This father seems to mean well, but he ignores the larger culture that is out there. He ignores the fact that there will come a point when his son will value the opinions of his friends and girlfriends more than he will his parents.

    To attempt to circumvent this is very noble, but in the end is only slowing down the inevitable. Get out of the way and let the boy be a boy, and a man be a man.

    It is parents like him that have created the LGBT culture in America and around the world with these well meaning but ill thought out lectures.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    Sept. 9, 2013 8:17 p.m.

    I did not see a rejection of sexual attraction in this message. However, if you just look for sexual attraction at the start, and look on women with sexual desire, things will go amiss.

    This is not the be all and end all of the message, but in a society that has too long both encourage boys to look and too long acted as if consuming sights on our lust is acceptable it is a good message.

    It is also a good message when too often we spend more time worry that women do not wear low cut dresses and too little considering that maybe we want boys to not notice the low cut dresses so much.

    Good marriages are built on both attraction and friendship. Many of the most successful marriages are of people who start out as just friends and only later come to be physically attracted to each other.

    Anyway, one message is not the solution to everything. The message you tell to a 14-year-old needs to be focused on getting him through the next 7 years when he needs to interact with women before marriage.

  • donquixote84721 Cedar City, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 4:54 p.m.

    We are all the children, of the same God regardless of how we choose to worship him, or by whatever name we call him. I hate to disillusion some my Brothers, who are Male chauvinist, but it occurs to me God could have used either gender to carry his spirit children, while they grow their physical bodies, but he chose the female gender. Carrying his Spirit children, has got to be the greatest honor God could give anyone. Males have been given the honor of serving those that carry his children. “Eve was not taken out of Adam's head to top him, neither out of his feet to be trampled on by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected by him, and near his heart to be loved by him.”
    ― Matthew Henry

  • kargirl Sacramento, CA
    Sept. 7, 2013 11:15 p.m.

    This father is spot-on. Just how much time in a relationship, in a marriage, is given to physical admiration expression of love, and how much to emotional attachment, friendship of the deepest sort, soulmate-quality closeness and companionship, working and playing together, making a home and family--think about it, isn't all that a lot harder than the part that comes from the male-female attraction part? So if men and women, when they are still boys and girls, cannot learn to see one another as people first, as humans, as this father is saying to his son, how on this wonderful earth can they ever do all the work of being a married couple in the ways that make people human? And don't forget, we live a very long time these days...

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Sept. 7, 2013 6:22 p.m.

    I think the article is lopsided. A man can control lust with strong efforts and likewise a woman is not forced to wear clothing that invites sexual interest. Men and women naturally feel mutual physical attraction that is hard to deny.

    Still we are commanded to cleave to our spouse and to no other. We are commanded to "take up our cross" in this matter (3 Nephi 12:28-30). I'm grateful the Lord recognizes that this takes self denial and effort.

    OTOH I do not appreciate the many women who increasingly contrive to lure men with the way they dress, and the ridiculous lengths that SOME go to to get that kind of attention. Isaiah 3:16-23 describes some of their fashions as well as the "wanton eyes" and mincing steps of women who adopt them.

    For my part I find that, no matter what they do, I am not forced to look. I like these words of Job:

    I made a covenant with mine eyes: why then should I think upon a maid.
    (Job 31: 1)

    God bless women who dress modestly and are lovely inside and out.

  • LFLucy Riverside, CA
    Sept. 7, 2013 1:47 p.m.

    I had seen this on Facebook and came here wanting to read it. It was well worth it and great advice for any person to give to their son.

    I only wish that parents would also give the same advice to their daughters. You don't need to impress a man by being alluring to them seductively. A man that will fall in love with you, will do so no matter what you look like, or how you are dressed. Hold your head up and be the woman that God can be proud of.

  • Alison Udall Bozeman, MT
    Sept. 7, 2013 10:01 a.m.

    I love this. To me this is a healthy & realistic way to help boys learn how to understand their own feelings/reactions and also how to channel those in appropriate ways. I wish this was lesson material at church.

  • wrz Pheonix, AZ
    Sept. 7, 2013 12:23 a.m.

    "'Would you date Quasimodo?' Why not??"

    Good luck with that project. He's fictional.

  • Hurteau Auburn, MA
    Sept. 6, 2013 10:03 p.m.

    "Would you date Quasimodo?"

    Why not??

  • Hurteau Auburn, MA
    Sept. 6, 2013 9:56 p.m.

    "So, what happens when the early, brief, beautiful, sexy years die out?"

    I have to say,, nothing about real love is brief,,, It is CONSTANT!! I am a 55 yo "Old Mam",, when I see my wife smile,, THAT is beautiful and "SEXY",, everything else is fluff!!

  • Hurteau Auburn, MA
    Sept. 6, 2013 9:46 p.m.

    Not only a message for boy's, but girl's too!! I love this!

  • Miss Piggie Pheonix, AZ
    Sept. 6, 2013 7:46 p.m.

    "So, what happens when the early, brief, beautiful, sexy years die out?"

    The 'early, brief, beautiful sexy years' is the start of the relationship without which there would be none. The next years on into middle age and beyond couples get to know each others character, personality, foibles, good points, bad points... emphasizing the positive and minimizing the negative. There is not enough time in the brief courtship period to figure that all out. It takes years.

    "If that's all the couple had to draw them together in the first place, no amount of aging of them both is going to substitute for what should have been there in the first place."

    Couples have to live together on a close personal basis to really identify differences and work out compromises and solutions. Some do and some don't. This can't be done in the courtship years where both are on their best behavior.

    "Maturity and integrity in relationships is what this article is all about."

    Won't work for a teen lad.

    "Of course sexual attraction is important!"

    That's what starts the process, without which there is none. Would you date Quasimodo?

  • Gracie Boise, ID
    Sept. 6, 2013 2:18 p.m.

    To Miss Piggie: So, what happens when the early, brief, beautiful, sexy years die out? If that's all the couple had to draw them together in the first place, no amount of aging of them both is going to substitute for what should have been there in the first place. Maturity and integrity in relationships is what this article is all about.

    Of course sexual attraction is important! But so is restraint under the right circumstances, and there's next to none of that in evidence today, especially in pop culture.

  • andyjaggy American Fork, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 2:03 p.m.

    I agree. I don't think we should teach the young women in our wards that they need to dress modestly to help the young men keep the minds pure. That's rubbish. They need to dress modestly because they respect themselves and the Lord has asked them too.

    Let's face it, the human sex drive is a very powerful thing. Almost every man is going to notice an attractive women if she is showing some skin, it's built into us. It's what you do after you notice that makes the difference. Do you keep staring and keep thinking about it, or do you move on with your day.

  • Araanna Farmington, NM
    Sept. 6, 2013 12:49 p.m.

    I love this article, its in such stark contrast to the one the mother sent to her sons full of shame for the girls and no responsibility towards her sons to learn to control their base natural man. We need more men like this and less like Robin Thicke

  • riverofsun St.George, Utah
    Sept. 6, 2013 12:15 p.m.

    So true?
    The biblical ideal of a man to follow God's plan to go forth and populate the world has been misinterpreted?
    There are many men who respond to this lust, as if a victim, "she made me do it, I could not help myself" in regards to a woman and her choice of clothing.
    Is a woman's clothing immodest, is it the current fashion, is it a choice of comfort, is it related to hot weather?
    Who determines this? Society, religious groups?
    Do women attack or over overly pursue a muscular, shirtless man, one who wears his pants too tight, or a man who wears pants way too low with views of his backside?
    Who critiques man's choice of questionable fashion?
    A history of aggression, assaults, arrests of women in this regard?
    Will mothers have to have a similar discussion with their daughters?

  • thatthatguy Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 12:11 p.m.

    I liked the article for encouraging people to be responsible for their own thoughts and actions. You cannot blame your feelings on someone else. You are ultimately responsible for yourself.

    This phrase: "A woman’s body is beautiful and wonderful and mysterious", seems to be counter to the message, however. Should we treat women like they are beautiful, wonderful, and mysterious? Or should we treat them like people, deserving of the same respect that any person deserves?

  • wrz Pheonix, AZ
    Sept. 6, 2013 12:08 p.m.

    The article had some good points. But, if the young guy stays platonic (i.e., free from sensual desire toward the opposite sex) as I understand the article to suggest, he will never have a girl friend, wife, or family. For some reason, mother nature planned that men and women get into the sensual, sexual attraction stuff (what some call 'lust'). So, men and women, and especially men, must move into this realm sometime to some extent. Not to over do it, of course, lest it becomes an undesirable, uncontrollable addiction.

    Sept. 6, 2013 11:25 a.m.

    Excellent article. My 14 year old son and I will be reading it together tonight...

    Sex is over-exploited in our society. It is one aspect of the relationship between man and woman; not the entire relationship. Young men are so bombarded with these images that they cannot relate to a young woman as a person. Japan is a great example of this. Officials there are worried because young men are not getting married or even dating. They use internet porn or other avenues to fulfill their base sexual needs and ignore marriage and family.

    As one in recovery from porn and lust addiction, I wish I would have heard this message when I was 11 or 12. Coming from a loving and supportive father, this can make all the difference to a young man......

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 10:18 a.m.

    What is wrong with a guy appreciating the beauty of a beautiful woman? A man looking a woman's beauty is about the most natural thing in the world. Shame boys into thinking this is wrong and they grow up twisted and emotionally starved . If they listen to what they are told. It's what happens in the Moslem culture is this what we want?

  • Gemini Australia, 00
    Sept. 6, 2013 10:18 a.m.

    This is a very intelligently written article. Yes, worth printing and giving to any young men's group in any church.

    I agree with "fowersjl" and not "Bass". Why always the harping on about women having the priesthood? If you are married to a worthy priesthood holder, you get every single benefit of that priesthood - if you are single, you have the same benefits from your sons, home teachers, or any other relative worthily holding that priesthood. You need to fully understand what the priesthood is to know that you do indeed "hold it" in some shape or form.

    What better way to do this as a woman than to be a mother, wife, daughter, visiting teacher - co-creator with God. No man I know of can be as nurturing as a woman can or be the vessel by which life comes through. You are in partnership with God - what more do you want? The temple will explain it all to you one day if you are a member.

    This man spoke words of true wisdom to his son. If only all men could describe women in this way! Good on him. I hope his son listens.

  • MrsH Altamont, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 10:18 a.m.

    I liked the article. This Dad sounds like he has some sense, and is ruled by his all too rare occurrence these days.
    (And, Dr Thom, I had to check my spelling of occurrence...but "perrocial"? Really? Doesn't give much weight to your comment.)

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 9:45 a.m.

    In the world of "Ernest T Bass" and others who think like him, men and women will never be "equal" until they are the "same". Women are not equal until they are playing in the NFL. Men are not equal until they can be a Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader. It is immoral for there to be a "boys only" or "girls only" club. We should cut men's college sports (title IX) until there are an equal number of girls playing sports as boys. Etc., etc..

    Either that or he just has a grudge against the church and wanted to inject a dig against it no matter what the topic of discussion.

  • common twit Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 9:41 a.m.

    blah blah blah blah blah....That is what his son will hear. It is true we are not mere animals and that we can make choices but this article was pure crap. It mentions every platitude of the feminist movement. (on a side note, I agree with much of the feminist movement but not their sexual views). This article was written as pure political correctness. It feels as though he is trying to get a pat on the back from certain people. I threw up a little in my mouth when I read the article.
    Ever wonder why women reject the nice guys? It is because the nice guys are trying to be something they are not. Nice guys will pretend to like musicals because that is what women like. A so called jerk actually keeps it real. He continues to watch football and drink beer. He even notices beautiful women.
    It is okay to have this political correct view. And while you are doing that, the rest of us will get the pretty girls.

  • Logit ,
    Sept. 6, 2013 8:06 a.m.

    Great. Another article on how to damage and confuse the male sex. No doubt this pastor will get a pat on the back from his female parishioners with this politically correct pablum. Many of those parishioners can now go home and use it as a tool to rationalize whatever unattractive female behaviors they're pursuing and shame their husbands into accepting those behaviors. But this pastor hasn't quite grasped the complete concept. In writing this article, it sounds like he's trying most to convince himself that human sexual attraction is really this simple rather than trying to convince any future son.

  • fowersjl Farmington, Utah
    Sept. 6, 2013 6:41 a.m.

    Great article. As for Mr. Bass's comment...I am a woman, and don't hold the "PH", but feel rather superior to the men in my life cause none of them can have the glorious experience of carrying, birthing, and nursing a baby. As far as I am concerned, that beats everything else you can do in this life.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    Sept. 5, 2013 8:38 p.m.

    This is a very good article, it cuts to the heart of the issue. I especially like the point that the sexes are different, not one better than the other or weaker than the other.

    It reminds me of Ezra Taft Benson's line "pride is easily seen in others, but rarely seen in oneself". Too often men with lustful thoughts want to place the blame on other people, instead of admitting the truth that it is they who have strayed in thought.

    There are reasons for modesty, but no amount of modesty will save us from lustful thoughts, and no amount of immodesty will put them there on its own.

  • Hamath Omaha, NE
    Sept. 5, 2013 5:24 p.m.

    This is so true. For years I was bothered by women who dressed in ways that I considered immodest. But eventually I figured it out. Their dress is their problem. Their self esteem. They have to deal with the attention they get. My looking is my problem, not theirs. My self esteem. I have to deal with any thoughts that came from it.

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 4:08 p.m.

    I liked the talk. Good advice. We all want to have good memories. I don't know about you but I have regrets. I figure that it's regrets that separate animals from humans. You know the ole saying to err is human, forgiveness is divine. The difference between mortal's and immortal's is reason. The reason is, is because you matter.

  • Red Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 3:37 p.m.

    Great article. This is a great reminder for all of us.

    Everyone should take a minute to read this and start seeing everyone for who they are.

  • jeanie orem, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 3:35 p.m.

    Excellent advise to young men! Both genders have a responsibility to themselves and each other. A great and honest dad with spot-on advise.

  • Granny Saint George, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 3:28 p.m.

    Could everyone just print this off and take to whatever church you belong to and share it with all of the men, young and old. PLEASE!