Defending the Faith: Each voice is unique and needed

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  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 19, 2013 3:14 p.m.

    What should be taught in an LDS Church are the doctrines of the LDS scriptures; no one has a right to preach his or her ideas. These nevertheless creep in and we hear the philosophies of men blended with scripture in attempts to inculcate the unwary, the novice, and the lazy (those who cannot be bothered to study the standard works).

    Many Mormons seen to believe everything they hear at university is true, and there is often an effort to wrest these notions to fit LDS doctrine. Some false doctrines are cultural in origin but are nonetheless false - "the traditions of men". These become popular belief and, in one way or another, seem to end up being taught, suggested or postulated in Church meetings. It could truly be said that Satan is among us teaching all types of false doctrine.

    "Mormon scholars" are odious imo; while it can be good to be learned most of the learned seem to be of the other sort, puffed up in their own pride, who "when they are learned they think they are wise and hearken not to the counsel of God".

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    Aug. 17, 2013 3:45 p.m.

    Modern day socialists, democratic labor parties, etc., trace their influences to Marx and the non-Marxist Fabians. Many have jettisoned the name Marx and tweaked his philosophy, but his influence is there nonetheless. Suggestions that there is no relation between Marx and socialism are ridiculous.

  • zoar63 Mesa, AZ
    Aug. 17, 2013 11:52 a.m.


    "Compare poor KJV translation to( Latin vulgate, Is 29:4), and thy speech shall whisper out of the ‘dust’. and thy voice shall be from the earth like that of the “*pythonis=(familiar spirit)”, and out of the earth thy speech shall mutter."

    Here is the Hebrew rendering:

    "Then you will become humble and you will speak from the ground. And from the dust, what you say will be hard to hear. Your voice will come from the ground. It will be like [the voice of] a dead person’s spirit. And from the dust your speech will be a whisper." Is 29:4

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 9:16 p.m.

    RE: the truth And you are just wrong . Translation is a very tricky thing.

    The translations I quote are not mine, i.e the Latin Vulgate ,JS ,NET,NIV can be checked . I do read Biblical koine)Greek ,Do you?

    Deu 18:11;Latin Vulgate)… nor any one that consulteth *pythonic spirits, or fortune tellers, or that seeketh the truth from the dead.

    (Is 29:4 JST) “ And thou(she) shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy(her) speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy(her) voice shall be, as of one that hath a*familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy(her) speech shall whisper out of the dust”. The inspired version makes only 4 minor changes. (NLT) *ghost conjured up from the grave.

    (Is 29:4 NET)"Your voice will sound like a spirit speaking from the underworld. from the dust you will chirp as if muttering an Incantation”

    …and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different=(familiar) spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel …(2 Cor 11:4 NIV).

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 7:02 p.m.


    You keep repeating the same information,

    And you are just wrong. Translation is a very tricky thing, For many reasons.

    And we have explained in detail many times on this site.

    We just disagree with you.

    @spring street

    There will always be state, Marx may have not strictly described it as a state but there is a state, a mechanism of enforcement. And it always deprives others of freedoms and rights and even life, to impose its ideology.

    There is no worker paradise without individual freedom,

    And Marx ideas is the nonsense spewings of a rich OWS type kid, whose poisonous fruit is communism, socialism, government dependence, and state enforced equality, state enforced goodness. Who's ideas were never worked in practice.

    You must have a moral and religious people for any system, to work right and well, who must be treated as individuals with individual rights, And Marx never understood that.

  • Weber State Graduate Clearfield, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 5:47 p.m.

    For anyone interested, the social relations of both Marxism and Socialism involve the working class controlling and owning the economic means of production.

    Socialism, however, is a western model advocating the elimination of social class, redistribution of wealth, abolition of private enterprise, and an economic system centrally planned and controlled by the state.

    Marx saw the state as "the institution of organized violence which is used by the ruling class of a country to maintain the conditions of its rule." He advocated the overthrow of the state through revolution with a subsequent implementation of a more centralized, powerful system of control that would supplant the state once the working class took over.

    Rather than a mechanism of class or political control, Marx saw the state as initially becoming the instrument of the working class, but eventually evolving into a coordinating economic entity of cooperative enterprises and public ownership of the means of production.

    There never have been, nor are there any current pure Marxist societies.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 7:53 a.m.

    RE: Allen Lambert's "Mormon Scholars Testify”, Moroni 10:— A testimony of the Book of Mormon comes by the power of the Holy Ghost … ,“Moroni’s words speak from the’ dust.”

    Compare poor KJV translation to( Latin vulgate, Is 29:4), and thy speech shall whisper out of the ‘dust’. and thy voice shall be from the earth like that of the “*pythonis=(familiar spirit)”, and out of the earth thy speech shall mutter.

    (Latin Vulgate 1 Sam 28:7) And Saul said to his servants: Seek me a woman that hath a divining spirit=( *pythonem/familiar spirit), and I will go to her, and enquire by her. And his servants said to him: There is a woman that hath a divining spirit=(*pythonem)[witch]at Endor
    From, Acts 16:16 … a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination=(*python/Grk,=4436) met us which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying .

    In Greek mythology, Pythian a serpent dwelt in the region of Pytho at Parnassus in Phocis, said to have guarded the oracle at Delphi and been slain by Apollo. 2. a spirit of divination.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 7:46 a.m.

    He can be a Mormon and a Marxist because the higherarchy does not manipulate its followers not despite it. Marx was not anti religion he apposed allowing the power elite trying ro use religion as means of control.

    @the truth

    Marx's philosaphes clearly states opposition to state cotrol. Claiming modern "communism" or "socialism" bare any resemblance to Marx's philosophy is like closing the DRC is actually a democratic republic with the same philosophies as the US.

    Aug. 16, 2013 5:57 a.m.

    spring street: I'm aware of what you said about the "least understood" aspect of Karl Marx's statement. However, that seems irrelevant to my thesis: an active Mormon cannot be totally Marxist. Did you have in mind that the Mormon priesthood hierarchy manipulates the masses of Mormons? There is no evidence in Allen Lambert's "Mormon Scholars Testify" statement that he believed that. Do you have any documented evidence that he did?

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 2:31 a.m.

    @spring street

    It's not what Marx endorsed its what his philosophies fathered: communism and it's little brother socialism.

    You can empower the people in one of two ways:

    The American/God's way: giving all rights and powers and liberty and freedoms to a moral and religious people, and they will dictate to a small and limited state,


    The Marxist begotten way: the state will enforce some view or notion of equality (a mechanism of enforcing equality must exist which will always be the state), though as Orwell has noted, there will always be those that are more equal than others.

    So really Marx's notion of an "association of producers" is the new state which is a socialist or communist stste. Just a matter of degree. Karl Marx is called the father of communism and a revolutionary socialist, if they are not siblings how could that be?

  • sdgeneral POWAY, CA
    Aug. 16, 2013 12:52 a.m.

    @gl w8

    Actually T. Allen referred to himself as "somewhat Marxian", not a Marxist, both in his testimony on "Mormon Scholars Testify" and as Daniel Peterson stated in the article. They are fundamentally different, you can Google it. I hate to split hairs but T. Allen would be disappointed that his views were being misrepresented.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Aug. 15, 2013 10:14 p.m.

    @gl w8.

    "Religion is the opiate of the masses" is probably one of the if not the most talked about and least understood ideas by the general public rthat Karl Marx made. Marx himself was a practicing prodestant. The comment you reference was made about those in power attempting to manipulate religions to maintain control of the masses.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Aug. 15, 2013 9:08 p.m.

    @the truth

    The fact you think that Karl Marx endorsed that the state should have any control proves you have never actually read or studied Marx.

    Aug. 15, 2013 6:44 p.m.

    BTW: In checking Allen Lambert's entry on "Mormon Scholars Testify", he identifies himself as "somewhat Marxist." That seems to verify what I posted previously.
    His statement is a clear, detailed description of the limitations of science where spiritual matters are concerned. His experience as outlined there matches much of my own.

    Aug. 15, 2013 5:52 p.m.

    Isn't the problem here one of eclecticism in its philosophical/religious sense? One considered to be active LDS could adapt aspects of Marxism, especially those resembling early Christian Practice, as posted earlier. But Karl Marx said (English translation) "Religion is the opiate of the masses." His views on religion were negative to say the least. So, labeling oneself as a "Marxist Mormon" would most likely not include all of Marx's ideology intact--and still be defensive of the LDS faith, as Dr. Peterson stated his friend to be.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Aug. 15, 2013 5:50 p.m.

    @The Scientist
    @Sorry Charlie!

    You are both wrong, they are siblings, two leftist parties fighting over who would rule.

    While they have differences, the differences are what siblings would have.

    It is mostly a question of degree. How much state control.

  • Sorry Charlie! SLC, UT
    Aug. 15, 2013 4:56 p.m.

    Actually moontan I am a social scientist and technically a scientist is right in stating that Marxism and socialism are not the same thing.

  • Michigander Westland, MI
    Aug. 15, 2013 1:12 p.m.

    (part 2 of 2): This is the true and only version of "Marxian Mormonism" or "Marxian Christianity":

    [19] And they taught, and did minister one to another; and they had all things common among them, every man dealing justly, one with another.

    [20] And it came to pass that they did do all things even as Jesus had commanded them.

    [21] And they who were baptized in the name of Jesus were called the church of Christ. (3 Nephi 26)

    [2] And it came to pass in the thirty and sixth year, the people were all converted unto the Lord, upon all the face of the land, ... , and there were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another.

    [3] And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

    [4] And it came to pass that the thirty and seventh year passed away also, and there still continued to be peace in the land. (4 Nephi)

    This condition will come again in the future. This is a firm belief of TCOJC (WHQ:MonPA).

  • Michigander Westland, MI
    Aug. 15, 2013 1:00 p.m.

    This is the true and only version of "Marxian Mormonism" or "Marxian Christianity": (part 1 of 2)

    [41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
    [42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
    [43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
    [44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
    [45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
    [46] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
    [47] Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2)

    And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. (Acts 4:32)

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    Aug. 15, 2013 9:43 a.m.

    Well now, we just ruled out the possibility that you are a political 'scientist.' Nothing in your insult is accurate.

  • The Scientist Provo, UT
    Aug. 15, 2013 9:24 a.m.

    Moontan wrote:

    "I can't quite wrap my mind around the concept of a Marxist Christian. Do we mean Christian Democrat, or maybe a European-type Social Democrat?"

    Dr. Lambert would not be pleased with such misunderstanding. Marxism is not socialism. Indeed, a high school understanding of history would reveal that the Communists (who trace their political ideological legacy back to Marx, among others) hated and fought against "Socialists" in Europe and elsewhere.

    It is unfortunate that political discourse today is so uninformed. I'm confident Dr. Lambert regrets this trend and did all he could to stem that tide. Though I disagreed with many of his views, Lambert was a worthy interlocutor and a kind man. "Theron," "Webby" will be missed.

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    Aug. 15, 2013 5:25 a.m.

    I read his testimony at MST. Powerful. A great loss to friends and family, no doubt.

    Maybe a respectful reader can assist, however: I can't quite wrap my mind around the concept of a Marxist Christian. Do we mean Christian Democrat, or maybe a European-type Social Democrat?

    Anyway, best thoughts to Dr Peterson on the loss of a good friend.