'Ender's Game' finds controversy, fans at Comic Con

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  • raybies Layton, UT
    Aug. 1, 2013 9:23 a.m.

    dr.snow: Mr Card, in his many writings about Ender's game, and i think even in later revisions of his book, credits Ursala LeGuin for the idea of an ansible.

    You may object to the message, which I think is a valid difference of opinion, but to accuse him of underhanded stealing is ignorant at best.

    He's always been forthright about the idea, in fact he says he named it the same thing as she does because he wanted to pay tribute to her.

  • Grundle West Jordan, UT
    July 31, 2013 1:41 p.m.

    moderator - you are joking right?

    Given the vitriolic nature of posts that you routinely allow to be posted here...my comments simply tried to make a point. There was no personal attack. Perhaps you should just post a series of comments you want to have posted so we can just choose one?

    I'm done.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    July 31, 2013 11:04 a.m.

    @coltakashi --

    "the identifiably gay characters in Card's stories have been drawn as good people"

    I guess you haven't read "Hamlet's Father", then (I have). In that story (written in 2008), Hamlet's father is a pedophile who molests Hamlet's male friends when they're children, resulting in them "turning" gay or becoming impotent.

    His other gay characters have uniformly either renounced their homosexuality (the Homecoming Saga and IIRC some of the later sequels to Ender's Game), or have been destroyed in some way by their homosexuality (Hamlet's Father and Songmaster -- the 15 year old character in Songmaster could never have sex again, and was groomed to be homosexual by evil pederasts).

    So far as I know, he hasn't written a single gay character who is happy, stable, and comfortable with his sexuality. It's the old stereotype of the tragic/doomed homosexual, over and over again.

  • coltakashi Richland, WA
    July 31, 2013 10:20 a.m.

    I concur with jem53's observation that the identifiably gay characters in Card's stories have been drawn as good people, even exemplary in many ways. In his personal essays, he has noted that, being a theater major at BYU, and in the world of science fiction and fantasy publishing since then, he has associated with people who self-identified as homosexual his entire adult life. I can't recall him "outing" someone who was secretly gay (unlike some gay people who want to punish other gays who are not active enough in their advocacy of gay rights), nor has he sought to injure a gay person in their careers.

    Card's fiction has offered the world heroes of every race and religion in his stories. The message of the Ender's Game novels is the need to respect those unlike ourselves and honor their value, even including those who are literally alien. He proposes that we can have integrity in our own beliefs while having tolerance for those who disagree.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    July 31, 2013 8:46 a.m.

    @Tekakaromatagi --

    "kindly provide an example..."

    Here's a few very brief excerpts, ranging over the past 20 years:

    1. "Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down..."
    -- He didn't say "vote the bums out of office" or "we'll get em at the next election" -- He said "DESTROY" that government "AND BRING IT DOWN" -- and earlier in that passage he also said "BY WHATEVER MEANS is made possible or necessary".
    -- That's insurrection, folks.

    2. Married gay people: "They steal from me what I treasure most".
    -- Really?? Are married gay people somehow forcing him to get divorced??

    3. Gay people in church: "They are wolves in sheep's clothing, preaching meekness while attempting to devour the flock."
    -- Fear-mongering, much?

    4. Gay people in general: "those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."
    -- Yup, second class citizenship for gays...

    You said: "a major cause of poverty are out of wedlock births."

    What's your point?? Gay marriage is about people WANTING to commit to each other.

  • raybies Layton, UT
    July 31, 2013 7:23 a.m.

    Contrarius: I've read the same editorials and opinions published by OSC as you have.You're conflating the "insurrections against the Government" charge to fit your argument. This use of sophistry simply doesn't fly, when weighing his response to actual events.

    Sure, OSC is passionate about all sorts of things, including culture, restaurants and movies.

    Have you read his published opinion about Church Basketball? He posits that it ruins the young men's program in the LDS church? It's scathing. I gave it to an LDS friend, thinking it was powerful and even funny, because OSC's essay was so completely uncompromising--and in many respects--right on the money--and my friend surprised me at how angry after reading it.

    A good writer evokes passion.

    In the era in which he wrote those comments, revolution was a legitimate concern, because people didn't know how it would even be feasible. Now that the debate is over, has he advocated that?

    Of course not, because it was rhetoric, it was a fear of the most extreme response that never actually happened--end of story.

    All scifi writers guess at what might be... in this, he missed.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    July 30, 2013 5:52 p.m.

    "I HAVE read OSC extensively. I have **also**, however, read many of his virulently anti-gay editorial rants, AND I have heard him speak against gays in person as well (in Utah, as it happens)."

    Could you kindly provide an example of one of his "virulently anti-gay editorial rants" so that we can make up our minds for ourselves.

    Traditional marriage is a powerful tool for fighting poverty because a major cause of poverty are out of wedlock births. For 50 years we have had a war on poverty and it is has failed. OSC and the National Organization for Marriage advocating strengthening marriage rather than redefining it. Good for them. I would expect a writer of science fiction to question and to run counter to the official political dogma. Good for OSC.

  • RockOn Spanish Fork, UT
    July 30, 2013 4:38 p.m.

    Orson S. Card and all associated with Ender's Game would hereby enthusiastically thank the LGwhatevers for organizing this boycott to bring millions of $$$ of free publicity to tis movie. Like most silly boycotts, they backfire and bring out far more people to a product or event than would have ever known of it. I don't care how you spell my name, just so you say it and say it and say it.

  • John20000 Cedar Hills, UT
    July 30, 2013 2:40 p.m.

    How many more people will lose their livelihood because they believe there is something special about the marriage of a man and a woman?

  • Dr. Snow Tempe, AZ
    July 30, 2013 2:16 p.m.

    Card is going to have a naturally sympathetic audience among the Mormon community. And they are perfectly within their rights to ridicule the LGBT community for their contempt for Card's anti-gay comments. Remember one thing: Card is a prominent member of the National Organization for Marriage which the Southern Poverty Law Center has listed as one of this country's major hate groups. I have never liked Ender's Game, but for literary (and philosophical) reasons. I have never believed that six year-olds can speak with the wisdom of 50 year-olds. I also believe that Card stole the ansible from Ursula K. Le Guin (it's called intellectual property theft). The novel, though, turns so-called innocent children into killers. Card cleverly blames society, but it left me with a bad taste. So that's what it comes to: taste. You either like his work or you don't. Most in SLC do. I don't like him personally (I went to school with him), and I don't like his writing. Just sayin'.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    July 30, 2013 2:12 p.m.

    It goes both ways. I know a woman who boycotted The Broadway theater because they showed Brokeback Mountain. She will never see a movie there again.
    Let's not pretend that there are no consequences for fighting civil rights.

  • JanSan Pocatello, ID
    July 30, 2013 1:41 p.m.

    I think that it is funny how the pro gay community seems to forget that the gay community was not exactly acting like angels during this whole Prop 8 thing.

    I boycott a certain man who said something that I found truly offensive but I DON"T put it through the ringer like a lot of these people do.

    If you don't want to see the movie - then don't! Just do it quietly alright.

  • JanSan Pocatello, ID
    July 30, 2013 1:36 p.m.

    attention Tim Behend
    You don't know much about LDS church history do you?
    Maybe you should learn more about it before making statements such as the one you did.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    July 30, 2013 1:21 p.m.

    @Coach Biff --

    "I see. OSC needs to apologize at the foot of some LBGT priest in order to be absolved of his sin of having an opinion. "

    He didn't just have an opinion, Biff -- he actually advocated insurrection against the United States government, and he spent years actively trying to deny equal rights to US citizens.

    If a devoted white supremacist made a public statement saying "I still believe in white supremacy, but the laws are already against me so you anti-racists shouldn't attack us any more", would that actually mean anything?

  • Coach Biff Lehi, UT
    July 30, 2013 1:06 p.m.

    I see. OSC needs to apologize at the foot of some LBGT priest in order to be absolved of his sin of having an opinion. The absurdity of the LGBT community knows no bounds, apparently.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    July 30, 2013 12:56 p.m.

    @coltakashi --

    "The people behind the boycott are demonstrating the sheer intolerance of some people in the "gay" community, who cannot stand that anyone disagrees with them."

    The National Organization for Marriage is currently officially sponsoring TWO boycotts against companies with pro-gay policies. Will you now accuse them of self-righteousness and intolerance as well?

    I didn't think so.

    @raybies --

    "OSC issued a statement stating that since the supreme court has decided this issue, he considers further debate on the topic to be moot, and he resigned his position with the National Marriage group that originally got some homopoliticos up-in-arms. "

    So what? Since when does he get to dictate the terms of the discussion?

    Card has made a step in the right direction. But that doesn't absolve him of all his past words and deeds.

  • Woody Newbury Park, CA
    July 30, 2013 12:49 p.m.

    Hollywood is having a catastrophic summer. The standard fare that film makers have relied upon is going down the drain in the mega budget movies. I am going to enjoy Enders Game. I will also take delight that the better movies of the year will have LDS writers.

  • GiuseppeG Murray, Utah
    July 30, 2013 12:05 p.m.

    re: TimBehrend

    Oh yeah, that's right because the Mormons' boycotting the highly offensive to Mormons Broadway Musical "The Book of Mormon" was such a big event. Only....they didn't. Instead they paid significant $$$ to advertise in the play program with their "You've seen the movie, now read the book" ad!!!

  • Jeff Temple City, CA
    July 30, 2013 11:29 a.m.

    I completely agree with the idea that a boycott is a useful weapon in the war of ideas that is our democracy. I personally boycott things that are made by people whose agendas I disagree with. For example, I refuse to buy things made by the creative team responsible for "Hairspray" because of what they did to a friend of mine who supported Prop 8. If GeeksOUT ever produced anything, I would boycott it.

    I know it might seem facetious, but I am completely serious: I support the use of boycotts.

    For a number of reasons (personal, political, and artistic), I hope the boycott of "Ender's Game" fails, but I applaud the use of boycotts for political reasons. I intend to continue to boycott people and products I disagree with.

  • Grundle West Jordan, UT
    July 30, 2013 10:48 a.m.

    I get a kick out of the LGBT community response to anything they deem as offensive.

    They make it very hard to be sympathetic to their cause.

  • VA Saint Chester, VA
    July 30, 2013 10:27 a.m.

    It amazes me that this group wants to boycott Card's work because he's a member of NOM. Defense of traditional marriage is homophobic and bigoted? I think not.

  • RockOn Spanish Fork, UT
    July 30, 2013 10:11 a.m.

    To our friend JSB -- Wagner died six years before the monster Hitler was born. But your point is well taken. I find Barbra Streisands politics absurd but she sings great (although I do draw a line at listening to this patently anti-Christian singing "O Holy Night", but I'm not silly enough to boycott -- I just don't chose to listen to the supersillious juxtapostion).

    But on Card, the heterophobes are certainly out in full force. Once again hysterically but illogically making their lack of case.

    Harrison Ford's opinions were certainly accurate.

  • christoph Brigham City, UT
    July 30, 2013 9:23 a.m.

    Great art and morality go together. Sin is playing only one key on the piano: boring and dull. Play all 88 keys and life is better. Hollywood is boring and dull.

  • Rustymommy Clovis, NM
    July 30, 2013 9:12 a.m.

    It is sad that boycotters don't get a taste of their own medicine. Using their logic,it is unlikely that I could go to the movies again. If I don't see a movie because I dislike the personal views of one of its key actors, writers, or directors, that pretty much excludes me from all movies. However, I am tolerant enough and smart enough to restrict my movie critiques to the content of the movie and not to the views of the cast. Boycotters should take a reality check on what they expect from society. When they are intolerant of other points of view, why should they expect tolerance for their own views? While the rights of a minority may need to be protected, so do the rights of a majority. Point to note: This movie, no doubt, has many actors and staff who sympathize with gay rights. Those people are being damaged as well. So it sounds like a case of "cutting off your nose to spite your face." Damaging one person is causing damage to hundreds of other people.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    July 30, 2013 8:57 a.m.

    @jem53 --

    "Any one that has read Orson Scott Card extensively knows that he is anything but homophobic."


    I HAVE read OSC extensively. I have **also**, however, read many of his virulently anti-gay editorial rants, AND I have heard him speak against gays in person as well (in Utah, as it happens).

    Remember -- OSC has actually advocated **insurrection against the Federal government** if gay marriage becomes legal.

    IMHO, the "Geeks Out" boycott has done a good thing, because it forced more people to publicly confront the issue of homophobia.

    OTOH, it's also obvious that the majority of people who will profit from the movie are NOT homophobic, and in fact are generally firm supporters of gay rights. In fact, Lionsgate is an exemplary supporter of gay rights itself, and will be hosting a benefit in support of gay causes.

    So by all means, go see the movie. Support Lionsgate and all the other people involved in the movie, almost all of whom are enthusiastic supporters of gay rights. Sure, there's some sting to supporting Card -- but he is only one man, while Lionsgate and the rest of the industry represents thousands who disagree with him.

  • TimBehrend Auckland NZ, 00
    July 30, 2013 8:35 a.m.

    I wonder how many LDS would choose silence if it were Mormons who were the objects of naked castigation by politicians and religious leaders? Who were widely denied rights available to every other group? About whom misinformation and hatred were regularly disseminated? The fact that you personally dislike the notion of normalised homosexuality shouldn't affect your support of fundamental principles of fairness and equality.

  • BCA Murrieta, CA
    July 30, 2013 8:13 a.m.

    I will not go see the movie because I have known Card's personal disgust of gays for years. I will not spend time advocating others do the same. I just don't care to read his books or now see movies from which he profits. The word is now out on him to a greater degree and I think that is a good thing.

  • raybies Layton, UT
    July 30, 2013 8:07 a.m.

    Fwiw, OSC issued a statement stating that since the supreme court has decided this issue, he considers further debate on the topic to be moot, and he resigned his position with the National Marriage group that originally got some homopoliticos up-in-arms.

    It's clear the only group that doesn't want this issue to be resolved in a positive way is anyone still calling for a boycott.

  • jem53 Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 30, 2013 7:59 a.m.

    Any one that has read Orson Scott Card extensively knows that he is anything but homophobic. Several of his books have gay characters that he treats sympathetically. In fact, I have been surprised at how openly gay some of his characters have been given his stance on gay marriage. He obvisouly doesn't hold any animus for gay people, but is simply opposed to legalizing gay marriage. The movie, Ender's Game, should be allowed to be judged on it's own merits, not on the personal beliefs of it's author.

  • coltakashi Richland, WA
    July 30, 2013 7:57 a.m.

    The story of Ender's Game was originally published in a magazine in 1977. It has nothing to do with sex of any kind, let alone homosexuals or same sex marriage. The people behind the boycott are demonstrating the sheer intolerance of some people in the "gay" community, who cannot stand that anyone disagrees with them. They share an attitude of self-righteousness justifying harm to others that has, in other societies, been cloaked with the term "jihad". And in states where same sex marriage has become law, they are using it as a weapon against dissenters.

  • Frozen Chosen Savage, MN
    July 30, 2013 7:05 a.m.

    Boycotts are a complete waste of time and rarely effective. If some LGBT activists want to organize a boycott of Enders Game good luck. I suspect most of them will say they are boycotting the movie and then sneak off to see it when their friends aren't looking.

    This whole thing is a tempest in a teapot which the media is trying to inflate into something bigger than it is.

  • Orem Parent Orem, UT
    July 30, 2013 5:06 a.m.

    Basically they are saying we don't have to be tolerant of you, you only have to be tolerant of us.

    Same old, same old from that group.

    I can't wait to see this movie. One of my all time favorite books. It will be a big hit and this boycott will be a complete failure.

  • Floyd Johnson Broken Arrow, OK
    July 29, 2013 11:25 p.m.

    I have been waiting for this movie since reading the book 20 years ago. Card could publish an article entitled "'Floyd Johnson' is a Cod Fish" and I would still be the first guy in line.

  • JSB Sugar City, ID
    July 29, 2013 10:40 p.m.

    Richard Wagner was a Nazi sympathizer but he also wrote beautiful music. Should I avoid listening to Wagner because some of his personal beliefs are repugnant to me? I suspect that those who are protesting "Ender's Game" think of themselves as being broad-minded liberals. But if someone refuses to watch a film, go to the opera, read a book, listen to good music, etc. because someone involved in the work of art has an opinion different from their's they are really displaying their narrow minded bigotry.

  • I know it. I Live it. I Love it. Salt Lake City, UT
    July 29, 2013 9:44 p.m.

    I used to live a very different life. I didn't obey, but I was rebellious in most things. I knew the church was true, but I just wasn't living the way I should and I wasn't sure how I felt about the doctrines regarding Family within the LDS Church. I ignored all this and kept living the life I lived.

    Eventually it catches up with you. All of us have to make a choice. We all learn at some point whether the choices we're making make us truly happy or not.

    I made my choice. I'm happy. I'm not perfect. We all make mistakes so I don't have any expectations of perfection from anyone. All I can do is hope for others. I hope others can see the happiness that others are finding through returning to the gospel and keeping the commandments. It isn't an easy decision. For me it took many years to get my life back in order. I wish I had earlier but the time is lost.

    See the movie or not, but a boycott doesn't make you any more right or any more happy. The gospel will.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    July 29, 2013 6:59 p.m.

    @ md: Really? I don't see your free speech being infringed upon. (Oh, and in case you think it is - "free speech" means the government won't censor it or throw you in jail - it doesn't mean other people won't use their free speech to express disagreement with you.)

    And, FYI, as Henry Drummond points out, those who oppose gay marriage have engaged in boycotts, too.

    As a matter of fact, those who oppose gay marriage and rights for same-sex couples still have the upper hand. Don't believe me? Try to adopt or foster in Utah as a same-sex couple - see how far you get.

  • md Cache, UT
    July 29, 2013 5:19 p.m.

    Ugh. Free speech is excellent, as long as you don't disagree with the gay agenda, eh?

  • Henry Drummond San Jose, CA
    July 29, 2013 4:56 p.m.

    Dustin Black said it perfectly. This is the wrong fight against the wrong Industry. Ten years ago, before it became more fashionable to support Gay Rights, Disney Corporation faced down the Southern Baptist Convention and the American Family Association who initiated a boycott of their films because they were offering Domestic Partner Benefits to their employees. At the end of the day, is a boycott against Ender's Game any different?

    I'm happy to oppose Orson Scott Card's ideas in the political sphere, but I see no reason to do it at the Movie Theater when the Film has absolutely nothing to do with his political views.