Actually, to sexually abuse someone does not require any sexual attraction to
the person at all. Much sexual abuse is about exercising power. Additionally
abuse of pre-pubescent boys often does not represent attraction to post
pubescent boys at all.
Orientation is not the same as thinking a thought on the action, it is having a
feeling that is beyond easy control. The cases of same-gender attraction are not
known, but what is clear is that people do not chose to have such attraction in
most cases. Having the attraction is not the same as acting on it, in any way.
Even the higher law of "looking on a women to lust after her" is still
about the choice to have thoughts. Deep rooted feelings and predispositions are
not the result of choices.
I am still baffled on how this decision could work with scripture. Scripture
condemns actions, not having pre-existing dispositions to something not acted
@sharrona --"There are Biblical exceptions."Ahhhh. Eunuchs are excepted from procreation.As we know from
ancient-language scholars: "in translations of ancient texts,
'eunuch' may refer to a man who is not castrated but who is impotent,
celibate, or otherwise not inclined to marry and procreate." -- IOW,
homosexuals.As Jesus himself said, when speaking of men who
shouldn't marry women: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from
their mother's womb..." (Matthew 19:12). Jesus himself acknowledged,
WITHOUT condemnation, the existence of such men.As Clement of
Alexandria wrote **1800 years ago** (referring to followers of Basilides):
"'...there are some eunuchs who are so from their birth...' And
their explanation of this saying is roughly as follows: Some men from their
birth, have a natural sense of repulsion from a woman..." (Stromata, III.
1.1) . They acknowledged the meaning of this phrase **1800 years ago**."Let us...do no kind or degree of evil to any man"Of
course, consensual homosexuality harms nobody.So -- we have people
whom the Bible apparently excuses from procreation, whom Jesus himself
apparently acknowledges without condemnation, and who harm nobody. Hmmmm. Don't we have more important things to worry about?
Much like the scout leaders who resigned when their troops were integrated and
they couldn't exclude black scouts any longer.
RE: Amazondoc,You think THAT is the (1)"great" commandment? (2)**Many**
people never have children. Are they all sinners. (3) Therefore love is the
fulfillment of the law." Romans 13: 8-10(1)Iwas quoting Spencer
W. Kimball 12th President of the LDS.(2)There are Biblical
exceptions. God saved the Ethiopian eunuch. So God’s election and
salvation might become evident, in an undeniable way. the “angel of the
Lord” and the “Holy Spirit” to direct Philip to the eunuch.
(Acts 8:26-40). And(Paul)So I say to those who aren’t married and to
widows—it’s better to stay unmarried, just as I am (1Cor 7:8) and
Catholic nuns.(3)Love is a living, active principle of obedience to
the whole law. Let us not only avoid injuries to the persons, property, and
characters of men; but do no kind or degree of evil to any man, and study to be
useful in every station of life. i.e ,Contrarius/Amazondoc is it now good to
steal or ignore DN 4 post rules?
@Sharrona --Yes, we know that Paul (Romans and Corinthians)
didn't like homosexuality. Paul also supported slavery, and believed that
women were inferior to men.Homosexuality is not "unnatural".
Animals exhibit homosexual behaviors out in nature -- therefore it's
natural. Paul was wrong. Again. As for Adam and Eve -- the folks of
the Bible didn't have in vitro fertilization or other
fertility/reproductive technology. Is all such technology therefore evil? They
also didn't have airplanes. Is flying therefore evil?"negates his first and great commandment to ‘multiply and replenish
the earth.’ "You think THAT is the "great"
commandment? **Many** people never have children. Are they all sinners??----------"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the
continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the
law.The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,”
“You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are
summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of
the law." Romans 13: 8-10
The LDS people who are concerned about the LDS Church's position regarding
the BSA's acceptance of homosexual orientation, should keep in mind that
Scouting is NOT a Church function, but has only been a worthwhile program to
guide youth who are experiencing the effects of becoming adults, and are
vulnerable to many "worldly" influences, which the Church supports as
"anything worthwhile or of good report" etc. IMO, the Church does not
condemn or endorse the BSA decision. The Church simply says it will not change
its practices because of the decision.What worries me more is: ef
same-sex marriage becomes law , which appears to be eventually probable given
this sorry administration's record so far, then a scout is honorable if
he/she has no sexual relations outside of marriage, but if he/she marries with
the same sex and consummates the marriage, the relations, according to the words
of the law, are no longer "sinful", as for heterosexuals, because the
scout has not had sexual relations outside of marriage. I'm afraid this
issue would be much, much more damaging than what is happening now, and the real
issues would be forced to be dealt with.
Why does everyone have to equate disproval or refusing to accept something, with
"hate"? I "hate" to tell you this, but they aren't the
same things.I am a BSA leader, I am Mormon, I am a mature individual
with my own opinions and ideas, which anyone with any awareness should know are
influenced by my upbringing and faith. I am also fully capable of making the
distinction between the individual, and their conduct. I think the fellow in
the story isn't showing "hate", he is showing a lack of love, of
understanding, and, sadly, of the very Christianity he professes. At least, I
hope that's what is going on.Regardless, how about we all quit
judging him, and each other, and gay people and bigots, since that is someone
else's job; and get on with doing what we are supposed to do, here on this
RE: Craig Clark, Understand The Pastor Beliefs are in the Reformed Tradition: The sanctity of the family: After Adam’s creation, God made
Adam a helper(Eve) who became his life –long partner in the task given him
by God. Eve the mother of all living, was to bear the children of the couple
,who were to in turn were to fill the earth with their descendants. Thus the
family unit is a part of the creation ordinances and becomes a central
theological aspect of both the Reformed doctrine of creation, with a central
role assigned to the family unit[natural]in covenant theology.Christians Believe Bible is the word of God. The context of (Romans 1:26-27)
and 1Corinthians 6, affirm that homosexuality is unnatural.Spencer
W. Kimball explained,.. Clearly it is hostile to God’s purpose in that it
negates his first and great commandment to ‘multiply and replenish the
earth.’ … It would nullify God’s great program for his spirit
children in that it would leave countless unembodied spirits in the heavenly
world without the chance for the opportunities of mortality …” (The
Miracle of Forgiveness,)
This article has a paragraph that states, "We will not follow the BSA,
Trapper Trails Council nor Mormons in endorsing what scripture and the church of
Jesus Christ through the ages has defined as sin," the letter reads.Someone posted a "What Would Jesus Do" question. The question
is very apt to the subject of homosexuality - or sex outside of marriage for
heterosexuals. What did Jesus say to the woman caught in the act of adultery?
What did he say to the Samaritan woman at the well - the one who had had 5
husbands and the man she was with at the time she spoke to Jesus wasn't her
husband? Those were sins also. Dis he condemn them? No he taught them!! By
his example. Can we do less??To dispel any questions... I am a
married heterosexual and I am a Mormon! That doesn't mean that I exclude
people from my life because they are "different" than I am. I try to
love them as my Savior did when he died for them!!
sharrona,"....Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does
not do it, to him it is sin.[Homosexuality]" ( James 4:1).______________________________In that passage, James wasn’t
talking specifically about homosexuality as you should know. While
the Bible prohibits same sex contact, it is silent on unconsummated same sex
attraction (which many today argue is genetic). The now discarded Boy Scout
policy was a controversy simply because it excluded from membership those with a
same sex orientation. There’s nothing in the Bible insofar as
I’m aware that prohibits association with or proscribes ostracism of those
with same sex inclinations. I don't care that in Biblical times, the death
penalty was proscribed for adultery and homosexuality. Those barbaric laws
preceded the written Bible by hundreds of years.
I don't see how this man has done a single thing that is bigoted or
unloving. Why do those who champion the gay agenda always resort to that kind of
name calling? He simply had the courage to stand up for what he knows to be
true.As a life long active member of the LDS church, I wish our leaders
had this 'do what is right, let the consequence follow' kind of
@LDSareChristians --"Since the BSA leadership consist of only
heterosexual."1. Those studies I posted had nothing to do with
BSA. They are true of the general populace -- most same-sex child molesters are
married/have straight relationships and appear "normal".2. You are
kidding yourself if you truly believe that all BSA leadership is currently
straight. I assure you that there are at least some closeted gay leaders in the
mix."we have the 200% increase of Male on Male sexual assault in
the military"That is a false claim.From "One
Year Out: An Assessment of DADT Repeal’s Impact on Military Readiness"
-- UCLA, plus a bunch of military faculty --1. "we did not
uncover any evidence suggesting that DADT repeal has led to a rise in violence
among service members"2. "Our conclusion...is that DADT repeal has
had no overall negative impact on military readiness or its component
dimensions, including cohesion, recruitment, retention, assaults, harassment or
morale."3." the rate of male-male sexual assault did not increase
after DADT repeal went into effect....These data call into question any
assertion that repeal has led to an increase in assaults."
Years ago, I was a scout. I learn that you leave the camp site just as you found
it. My dad taught me when you visit and stay with some one you give as much or
more food or more than you eat. leave it as you found it or better. It shows you
have honor to respect these places. Ego, self-esteem, is in the wrong place in
@Contrarius,You prove the ole adage about numbers. Since the BSA leadership consist of only heterosexual. That would be the only
group for which there would be statistics on, succumbing to temptation and
abusing youth. Your statistics are worthless unto any point you were trying to
make. Right know, we have the 200% increase of Male on Male sexual
assault in the military as an indicator what could happen. Will the same new
openness in the BSA have the same results? I'd bet that the
ratio of adults to youth abuse in the BSA is much lower than compared to USA
population as whole, because of the stringent rules and oversight of BSA to
it's adult leadership.
@JD "Can't help but think Joseph and Brigham would have done the
same."And what would Moses have done? Oh yea, gays would have
been stoned to death.Times change. Often times it is for the
@Tekakaromatagi and Chris B --Just a few facts for ya --From a researcher at UC Davis: "many child molesters don't really
have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for
mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead,
their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of
both sexes.[....]many child molesters cannot be meaningfully described as
homosexuals, heterosexuals, or bisexuals...Instead of gender, their sexual
attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals ... are attracted to
children, not to men or women. "British Journal of Psychiatry,
2001 -- men they studied with "no evidence of homosexuality" were at
roughly 50% GREATER risk for becoming child abusers than men "who were
Child Advocacy Center
statistics -- 75% of all male child molesters are "married or have
consenting sexual relationships (with women)" and that "only about 4
percent of same-sex abuse involves homosexual perpetrators".
Archives of Sexual Behavior, 1978 -- "sexual orientation was
not related to the sex of the victim targeted" and "men who molested
boys often had adult relationships with women".
There's much more, but no room to post!
@Cris B. --"Dozens of boy scouts have been abused over the
years."Here's a few recent BSA abuse cases --("year" is of the article -- not the year of the crime):2012 (conviction 1999), Philadelphia -- married, prominent LDS member2011, Pueblo -- divorced (not a leader)2009, Orem -- married scout
leader2005, New York -- married scout leader, prominent Baptist church
member2002, Denver/New York -- married scout leaderSo
let's ban all married men. Especially those who go to church. ;-)Reality. Pamela Schultz, a researcher who published a book on
child molesters, has said that "the molesters she interviewed were often
church-going men and leaders in their churches. Many also have wives and
families of their own. They project a picture of normalcy. " This is common
knowledge amongst people who actually study same-sex child abuse.Reality.Stop obsessing over the innocent. The real predators are
those who appear "normal".
Bravo to the pastor. The boy scouts is for the young. I don't think that we
should condone any kind of sex at all in the boy scouts. The boy scouts is for
learning and for self confidence. I don't understand why we have to include
those that are under 18 to voice what sexual preference they think they are.
This just makes for an uncomfortable situation for all. Camping? Where do they
sleep? I am glad my sons are done with the Boy Scout program and know that you
won't see my grandchildren in the program nor will I donate any longer to
that program. Sexual preference is not what the boy scouts should be about.
Too funny:Boy Scout oath:....and morally straight.Wonder when they will get rid of that line?@Ranch "What
would Jesus do? Who would he exclude?"Well He has been pretty
clear on that. He has not tolerance for sin regardless of your orientation and
no unclean thing shall enter.....It is not a matter of who he
excludes. People of all types choose to exclude themselves with the choices
they make. He doesn't discriminate, people know the rules and they
essentially opt out.Nice try though.
Can't help but think Joseph and Brigham would have done the same. Current
leadership, not so much.
re: Cris B: "'straight women serve as Scoutmasters in the BSA'
Agreed And yet they don't share tents with the boys. I'm frankly
shocked liberals have such a hard time grasping such a simple concept."And yet Scoutmasters are still part of BSA, even though they don't
share tents with the boys and girls. Imagine that. I wouldn't consider
myself liberal by any stretch of the word, but why are you so obsessed with the
belief that this membership policy is going to force boys to sleep in the same
tent with anyone else that might make them uncomfortable?Frankly
I'm shocked that you have such a hard time grasping such a simple concept
as multiple tents being available at a camp out.
Girlse, the issue is not girls, it is gays. As a society, we do *not* segregate
gays from straights in the same ways we do with boys from girls. We do not have
separate bathrooms, separate locker rooms, separate scout troops, or separate
mission apartments for gays. Why not? There's no one answer. Partly
it's that gender is easily identified (physically and through clothing
norms). But whatever the reasons, as a society, we have learned to integrate
gays and straights into intimate settings - locker rooms, missionary apartments,
etc. - without more risk of abuse than occurs from heterosexuals. Scout camps
are no different. So while we should always be concerned about safety, the risk
of abuse is no more a reason to pull a boy from scouts than it is to pull a
young man from a mission.
Are there any scouting badges on sexual purity? Is this topic within the
purview of the BS motto vis-a-vis actual discussion time, badges, research,
etc.?If not: the nays have the debate here. And kudos (Coug man,
et al) for raising the heterosexual "messing around" issue. If the BSA
were handling that issue better than parents and clergy, would our military
possibly have a better track record with their current abysmal sexual assault
travesty?If so: why?Ahh, that's right. Parents
and clergy rule that domain. Where the blame lies, no one wants to accept.
Houston, we have a problem on both fronts. And my boys got lectured, trained
and grilled from Day 1. Cub Scouts never addressed that issue, and they lost
interest before moving up. I still would have allowed them in the BSA if the
gay issue had been an issue 20 years ago- We would have dealt with those
parameters in our own home.Stop out-sourcing all parental
responsibility to clergy, scouting, YMCA, or any other convenient scape goat.
He is only hurting the kids in scouting, he is showing them what hate,ignorance
and intolerence looks like.It's a good thing that people like
this are not around the kids. We really do NOT need any more hate taught to
kids.There are a lot of evil things going on in the world and being
Gay is the furthest thing from Evil.
Though I understand why he's quitting... I don't think that's the
response I would have.If we kicked out the boys who have sinned...
we wouldn't have many boys in our scout troops.I thought about
quitting, but I'm going to remain a scout master. Boys have never been
kicked out for being gay before, so this is not a big change to me. They just
put it in writing to satisfy the GLBT community (which I don't see a need
to do, but whatever).IMO... Boys Scouts regardless of sexual
orientation should not be sexually active. I've never heard of a boy who
committed a sexual sin being kicked out of Scouts. This is no different.IMO... Scout leaders should be an example to the boys of being
"morally straight" and work with them on their commitment to remain
"morally straight". But nobody gets kicked out for sin.Jesus is the best example we have. I don't think he would have quit on
us because there are sinners among us. I'm not going to give up on ANY of
Ohio-LDS. Just as homosexuality is part of the world, so is heterosexuality.
That appears to be Chris's point. And due to heterosexual feelings, as a
society we separate men and women in private settings that otherwise would
elicit potentially awkward and unwanted sexual feelings. And yes, I agree
there is danger in the missionary field if there is a gay companion. No, he is
not evil for being gay. Neither is any man evil for feelings towards women.
But in private settings we as a society have determined it only logical to
separate and prevent those private and potentially sexual encounters in places
such as locker rooms. You are right gays are not more dangerous than straights.
And again, to Chris's point, we separate straight men and straight women in
many settings, including scouting. It is the logical and correct thing to do.
@Really:""And as I mentioned, 100% of the male abusers have
been homosexuals."Please provide the sources for your data before you
make such ridiculous claims.The source is the definition.If a male is attracted to another male, therefore, the male is homosexual or
bisexual. By definition, a heterosexual man would not be attracted to another
man. If he was then he would not be heterosexual.
@Cris B."100% of men/boys who have sexually assaulted another male are
homosexuals or bisexuals.No heterosexual male has ever abused
another boy."Sexual assault is based on power, not attraction so
your statement is false.
Chris B, as a father of three boy scouts, I am not overly concerned with them
sharing tents with gay young men. I am also not overly concerned with them
living in the same apartment as gay young adults when they serve as LDS
missionaries. If anything, I am more concerned about potential abuse in the
missionary program than the scouting program. As missionaries, they are much
farther from my watch, spend much more time with gay companions, and do so in a
much more intimate setting - an apartment. Why am not overly
concerned about my boys' safety? Because homosexuality is a part of the
world in which their Father in Heaven sent them. There is no way to prevent
them from being around gay - whether at school, on the ball field, in scouts, or
on a mission. And I would not want them to. Some of my best friends are gay.
Instead of removing my boys from the world, I teach them correct principles and
trust that any harm that comes to them will be remedied through the atonement.
Gays are not any more dangerous than straights. They are our brothers and
"And as I mentioned, 100% of the male abusers have been homosexuals."Please provide the sources for your data before you make such ridiculous
I lost my previous attempt, so apologize if this is a duplicate. After nearly
50 years in scouting, an holding every volunteer position including council
camping commissioner, I have informed my local council that I will not
participate, support, nor attend any associated scouting function. My ward
leaders have been informed of the same. I am writing to encourage the fence
sitters to stand up and be counted. Local level scout leaders overwhelmingly did
not support this position of the national organization. I know of no other way
to voice my strong opposition. The military did away with don't
ask--don't tell, and in the last two years male-male sexual assault has
increased over 200%, while the male-female assault increased only moderately.
It all looks pretty plain to me .
contagion,If we find out that a man has been a peeping tom
unbeknownst to a group of women, we stop that behavior, even if he has not
sexually assaulted them yet.Similarly, if a gay boy
scout/leader has been watching other males change clothes and sleeping in tents
with them, his dishonesty is not something to be commended.A remedy
should be found.Again, please realize this is about Scout safety.Protect the boy scouts!
amazondoc,Dozens of boy scouts have been abused over the years.Yes, its happened.And as I mentioned, 100% of the male
abusers have been homosexuals.Reality. Please accept
reality so that we can work together on PROTECTING boy scouts.This
is all about scout safety. Nothing more.
Let me see if I have this straight, marriage is between one man and one woman
except when it wasn't or isn't (reference concubines, David, Solomon,
Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, LDS position on divorce etc.) and God hates the act
of people engaging in sexual activities with people other than the person's
spouse but particularly - same sex sexual activities. And we know this for a
fact, even though we don't know why a person is driven to engage in such
contemptible conduct (ref. current LDS position).And last, just a
dirty little secret for the self righteous - boys participating in scouting are
also having sexual relations with girls not their spouse and they aren't
being kicked out of scouting. In fact, to my knowledge I don't believe
I've ever heard of a scout being asked not to participate in a scouting
activity because he was engaging in frisky conduct with the opposite sex - not
saying that it hasn't happened, just saying in my 40 years of participating
in and observing scouting, I've never heard of it.
We're changing and growing, and not everybody wants to come along.
So I wonder if this Pastor kicks out of his Presbyterian congregation
individuals that have Same Sex Attraction but remain celibate? The BSA policy is
accepting anyone and then teaching them that their duty to God is to remain
morally clean regardless of orientation.Likewise, I wonder if he
kicks out of his congregation unmarried youth that actually commit forinication?
@Chris B --"And yet we all agree its not a good idea for them to
share tents/change clothes together."And once again -- gay boy
scouts have been sharing tents with straight boy scouts ever since the BSA was
founded.The only change is that now they can be HONEST about it.Pretty simple concept.And as experience has **already**
shown us:Closeted gay boy scouts have not assaulted straight boy
scouts.Openly lesbian girl scouts have not assaulted straight girl
scouts.Straight female Scoutmasters have not assaulted boy scouts.Openly lesbian troop leaders have not assaulted girl scouts.Straight
male troop leaders have not assaulted girl scouts.Welcome to the
Contagion,Here is a fact about assaults, both within the scouting
community and not.100% of men/boys who have sexually assaulted
another male are homosexuals or bisexuals.No heterosexual male has
ever abused another boy.It's never happened.And if
you think scout leaders have never abused scoutsIn the history of
the world. If we're telling straight kids "tough deal with
it" in changing clothes/sharing tents with homosexual boys, there is no
difference between me walking into a women's locker room and telling them
"tough, deal with it"No, I would never assault them.And yet that is not acceptable in our world.Welcome to
RE: Craig Clark, The “pastor's” parting shot misrepresenting
the position of others including the LDS Church showed no class.Pastor="shepherd,"(poimen)a spiritual guide, shepherd of souls. The
Christian Pastor would commit the sin of omission,at least. "Therefore, to
him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is
sin.[Homosexuality]" ( James 4:1).The Chief
Shepherd(archipoimen) (1Peter 5:4 ), “But if you (*skandalizo)cause one of
these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you
to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone hung around your neck. (Mark
9:42NLT)*to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon
which another MAY trip and fall, metaph. to offend(a) to entice to sin.
@really?"Here's a secret that many straight men don't
understand--just because you are a man, it doesn't mean that gay men are
automatically attracted to you"Here is a secret for you.Just because a man/boy is straight does not mean they are attracted to
every girl/female.And yet we all agree its not a good idea for them
to share tents/change clothes together.Again,Pretty
Reality? Really?The BSA bowed to PR pressure. Plain and simple.
Toe in the door.Just wait an incremental minute. They'll come
barging all the way in. THAT is reality, their agenda.
I am saddened to see a religious leader taking public action to exclude a small
segment of the population from his scouting program. Think of the message he is
sending to his congregation; we will not tolerate nor include those with same
sex attraction to be amongst us in our congregations. So many of
you bemoan the godless lifestyles of the homosexual population. Let's think
about why so many gay men and women seem to abandon God. Could it be that after
years of living the gospel, serving others, and trying to live chaste lives,
they just gave up the last time they were reminded that they were broken, not
faithful enough, or just straight-out sinners? Could the actions like this
pastor took lead some members of his congregation to think they aren't
wanted, needed, or loved by God?
To Chris B,You keep on stating that boys and girls don't share
tents as a reason to exclude gay boys from the scouting program. I agree that
boys and girls should not share tents, but what do you recommend you do with the
gay boys on a camping excursion? Here's a secret that many straight men
don't understand--just because you are a man, it doesn't mean that gay
men are automatically attracted to you. Most gay boys are in need and want of
good, strong platonic friendships with straight young men. If a gay young man is
involved in scouts, he wants to be as morally clean as his straight
counterparts, and he would never try anything to jeopardize that.Holding on to your argument, do you propose that gay men now change in the
women's locker room at the gym, use the women's restroom? Of course
not! It's time the paranoid public learns that just because a man is gay,
it doesn't mean that he is automatically attracted to every man he meets.
Currently serving as a Boy Scout Committee Chairman and have served in other Boy
Scout Leadership positions throughout the years and being very active L.D.S. I
have struggled and still struggle a little with this decision from the Boy
Scouts of America. I will remain for the time being. The Boy Scout Oath is
that a Boy Scout shall be morally straight and the Boy Scout Law is that a Boy
Scout shall live clean in word and deed. Both of these point directly to
Duty to God. The Strength of Youth handbook dictates that if a youth acted
upon any conduct of immorality (homosexuality) then there would be an issue as
to be taken up with his Bishop and God. It would be devastating to
the Boy Scouts of America organization if the L.D.S. Church pulled out with
approximately 450,000 Boys in Scouting and it being the largest contributor.I wouldn't be surprised at all one day if the Church developed it's
own Boy Scout Program independently just like they did with B.Y.U. Football.
@Chris B --"I'm frankly shocked liberals have such a hard
time grasping such a simple concept."What *you* don't seem
to grasp is the fact that gay and straight boy scouts have been sharing tents
together ever since the BSA has existed. There have ALWAYS been gay scouts
within the organization. And guess what? The world didn't come to an end.
Nobody jumped on anybody else in the depths of the night, despite your deeply
held personal phobias.The ONLY difference now is that those gay
scouts will be allowed to be HONEST about their orientation.Closeted
gay boy scouts have not assaulted straight boy scouts.Openly lesbian girl
scouts have not assaulted straight girl scouts.Straight female
Scoutmasters have not assaulted boy scouts.Openly lesbian troop leaders
have not assaulted girl scouts.Straight male troop leaders have not
assaulted girl scouts.All this supposed assault that keeps happening
in your head has not actually occurred out in the Real World. Welcome to reality.
I think people are missing the larger point, which is that the LDS Church is now
speaking in terms of "orientation," effectively acknowledging that
same-sex attraction is--or at least can be--an innate characteristic. We still
say that to act on it is sinful, but it wasn't that long ago that one of
the apostles assured us in General Conference that "no one is born that
way." It's natural to wonder how much farther the church's
position on homosexuality may "evolve" in the face of mounting
Apparently Pastor Humphrey believes that a raging-hormonal-changing kid can
legitimately self-identify himself as a homosexual. Hopefully, his
replacement will have a better understanding of peer pressure/ PC-PR/ and normal
developement confusion --- and provide the needed guidance to the organization.
Contrarius:"Quote: "Same-sex attraction itself is not a
sin".Agreed.Neither is heterosexual attractionAnd yet we don't have boys and girls share tents and change clothes
together. "Quote: "Attraction to those of the same
sex...should not be viewed as a disease or illness."Agreed.Neither should heterosexual attraction.And yet boys and
girls don't share tents. "Members of the Church who have
same-sex attractions, but don’t act on them, can continue to enjoy full
fellowship in the church, which includes holding the priesthood, carrying out
callings, and attending the temple"Yes, Mormons allow that for
heterosexuals too.And yet boys/girls don't share tents"As for gay scout leaders -- straight women serve as Scoutmasters in the
BSA"AgreedAnd yet they don't share tents with
the boys.I'm frankly shocked liberals have such a hard time
grasping such a simple concept.
@Ranch "Bigotry is not a "principle". What would Jesus do? Who would
Jesus exclude?" Calling others a bigot just because they do not hold the
same opinion or belief as you is so overused. Faith/belief in God is more than a
trendy WWJD sound bite. To know WWJD, you have to know Him and what He says
about certain behavior.(all of it, not just the parts that you like or can use
to push your own agenda or a political point of view) I applaud the pastor for
his stand to follow the whole council given in God's word and for
acknowledging and humbly submitting to God's Authority. What those who are
trying to push the LGBT lifestyle on the rest of us fail to understand is that
"tolerance" does not equal acceptance. Most people of faith realize that
they answer to a higher Authority than the LGBT community. That hardly qualifies
as bigotry. WWJD? He certainly wouldn't go against what is clearly laid
out in His Father's word and would not call "good" what His Father
calls an abomination.
To UtahBruin: Thank You.
@ Ranch, Way of the Warrior, BYUFaninDC, This guy has an opinion, he
has a belief, he has a faith, he has a understanding of what he believes is
right. Is he hurting anyone by his opinion, belief, faith, or
understanding?....No. Why is he wrong just because he does not
believe the same way as those of you who convict him of bigotry, pride, or not
considering others? Why do people bash him for standing up for his
convictions and values? You bash him only because he does not agree with
you.No crime here people, not ill thoughts on his part, just his
convictions and you want to convict a guy who has values and principals. What
is our world coming too?
The key point is that this man has a right to decide for himself what he is
comfortable with and the rest of us need to mind our own business. We have no
more right to judge him than he has the right to judge others. But if he pulls
himself out of the scouting organization that is fully his right. Hypocrisy runs
deep within all of us.
From the Mormons and Gays website:"Quote: "Same-sex
attraction itself is not a sin".Quote: "Attraction to those of the
same sex...should not be viewed as a disease or illness."Quote:
"individuals do not choose to have such attractions"Quote:
"Members of the Church who have same-sex attractions, but don’t act on
them, can continue to enjoy full fellowship in the church, which includes
holding the priesthood, carrying out callings, and attending the temple."Gay boy scouts are not sinning as long as they are celibate. Their
orientation is not a choice.There is no valid reason to exclude them
from scouting.As for gay scout leaders -- straight women serve as
Scoutmasters in the BSA. And in the girl scouts, both lesbian women and straight
men serve as leaders. How would gay men be any different?
I'm excited for the start of summer. For scouts to spend more time worrying
and learning about orienteering and pioneering and a lot less time thinking
The good censors at the News wouldn't post this comment before but
I'll try again.I don't necessarily have a problem with the
decision in an of its self. I don't have a problem with gays in of
themselves. I had a gay friend who was in my Scout troop. What I have a
problem with is the bullies who forced the decision. I'm tried of the LGBT
being bullies who want to force their beliefs on me. It may be morally wrong
not to want to rent MY property to a gay but it shouldn't be illegal. We
are supposed to respect their point of view but there certainly isn't a
reciprocal respect for mine. I will support my local Ward Scout Troop but I
won't give another dime to Friends of Scouting because they let themselves
The pastor's parting shot misrepresenting the position of others including
the LDS Church showed no class. Making a sour and bitter statement is an
undignified way to go out that says more about him than the Boy Scouts of
America and those he is excoriating.
The real emotional conflict that many people are going through is a change in
our UNDERSTANDING of homosexuality. Human experience and recent research
suggests that sexual attraction is deeply rooted in our psychology and biology.
It is arguably outside the realms of what most people would call
"choice." "Sin," on the other hand, is a choice to
act contrary to God's law, which varies from faith to faith. A person can
experience attraction without sinning. Jesus himself was "tempted"
(obviously with something he was inclined to do, or it wouldn't have been
much of a temptation), yet overcame those temptations in the name of a higher
good. Children, often having vastly different experiences of
attraction and feeling at the onset of puberty, should NOT be subject to an
evaluation of those feelings or attractions. Is there some sort of sexuality
litmus test for 12 year old children? No. We establish rules to give them time
to develop and come to terms with themselves. Scouting is on the right track.
re Chris B: Why would this new membership statement put them in the same tent?
Coed Venturing crews don't have the boys and girls in the same tent.
All words delaying the inevitable; Before God there is no such thing as
'gay' and there is no sexual relationship outside of marriage between
a man and a women. If people want to mince words or keep hoping that God will
change His mind, then so be it. Others have said it best, "...go and sin no
more.' It is pride, an ironic word here, that keeps men and women away
from God. Gay pride is no different.
As Orwell put it in 1984...to repudiate morality while laying claim to it.This is a prime example of it. We were warned in conference about this
tolerance trap.And we've learned from this Pastor of another faith
exactly how to speak out about it.
I know now I am not alone on my way of thinking, I still support LDS church
resolution but agree with Humphrey's actions, I do have the same posture
regarding this matter.
The policy to allow all young men to join scouting was the right decision. These
scouts will still be held to the morally clean promise made in the Scout Oath.
In the scout law it talks about being reverent which means obedient and humble
before God. God has declared the act of homosexual sex and sex outside of the
bonds of heterosexual marriage to be a sin. There should be no
problem having young men or women in the scouting program if they commit and
live righteous lives. We can help more kids having them in the program and
teaching correct principals than we can having them out of the program
completely. The leadership within the scouting organizations will need to be
diligent though if a young man or young woman ever breaks those sexual rules.
They will need to be ejected from the organization for the scouting program to
remain credible. I support this good pastor in his right to his own
belief but believe that his ladder is leaning against the wrong wall in this
I do believe there are many scriptures that relate thinking about sinning to
committing the act. Jesus taught that someone looking on a woman to lust after
her has already committed adultery. Are these scriptures still valid under the
church's new view that orientation is not a sin?
There is no evidence that homosexuality is a choice. Would the good reverend
also condemn others who are born with conditions that he finds disagreeable? My
understanding of Christianity is that Christians are supposed to help people
follow its teachings, not categorically exclude people.
We all have our own personal thorn in the flesh, some weakness, which might
plague us throughout our lives. How we respond to it is what matters.
Recently, a friend who is LDS told me that same sex attraction must be
involuntary because she knew a current teenager who at the ripe old age of two
had announced, "I am a boy." The family responded, "No, God made
you a girl." The two-year-old then said, "God made a mistake." The
family, believing that young children are closer to God than the rest of us,
took that announcement as having merit and have been supporting the girl's
belief that God made a mistake all her life. I don't object to the
LDS stand on this Scouting change. But I am disturbed that many in the Church
seem to be buying into the homosexuality movement's basic contention: God
makes mistakes. God made me this way.Neither science nor love excuses us
from going and sinning no more. We should not be led by two-year-olds.
And don't forget that marriage in the eyes of the LDS Church is between one
man and one woman. So sexual activity outside of that definition of marriage is
considered to be not "morally straight".
I think the bottom line is what atrulson alluded to..."orientation is not a
sin". I absolutely agree...it's the act and engaging in unchaste
behavior that is the sin regardless or one's orientation. Quick...which sin
is greater a heterosexual boy/man who engages in fornication or a homosexual
boy/man who engages in a sexual non marital relationship? The BSA frowns upon
them BOTH, and even reiterates this in their new policy. This is why the LDS
church has no issue with the new policy because it is firmly in line with
church's values and the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Agreeing with the Church's views and policy on homosexuality I have no real
problem with the change in BSA policy. I do however still find it sad that BSA
seems to have allowed itself to be used to further an agenda that has nothing to
do with Scouting. By falling into what I feel was a trap BSA has in fact lost
many valuable leaders and has diminished its ability to serve youth.
To:Way of the Warrior...I don't believe pride has anything to do this Mr.
Humphrey's decision to leave his Post with the scouts. We have been taught
all of our life what is good or bad and when decisions(big) are made that goes
against what we have been taught and have believed all of our lives it can be
devastating. I don't understand why this change was made but it is Mr.
Humphrey's choice to withdraw and he should not be condemned or be judged.
I'm sure these scouts will miss his fine leadership and knowledge and that
is the saddest part of it all.
The key point here should be that all Scouts maintain Scoutings' moral
principles and not engage in sexual acts outside of marriage.
I am socially liberal. I think if you are gay I'm happy for your choice.
It's your choice not mine.If you are against homosexuality that's your
choice not mine. So if I think this man follows what he believes. I would say
the same thing about a gay scout master!
Agree with other posters - when you think more of yourself then you do of those
you have the potential to serve and therefore exclude them from being helped,
seems there is a conflict there, and it not the one that, I believe, the Savior
would look favorably upon.
Orientation is not a sin.
So.... let me see if I understand. The Mormon church and this local Council
leader are saying... if you state that you have homosexual tendencies but
don't act on them, then you can join Boy Scouts. But according to this guy
you are sinning to the point that he doesn't believe he should associate
with you. What does that mean about someone who sees a girl (not his
wife) and starts fantasizing about her some? Or how about the
person who is so mad at a co-worker that they think about doing something
violent to the co-worker, but restrains himself or herself somehow? Having a thought toward doing something but choosing otherwise or restraining
yourself is NOT some terrible thing that justifies social shunning. Beyond just that. Church is for sinners. It should be rampantly full of
people striving for moral straightness. But striving is the key word. They are
sinners! We all are in some sense. Would you kick out someone from your church
because they have desires that are not right according to your beliefs and are
trying to change those desires or learn to control them? Would you shun them?
are you kidding? Being a chaste gay boy IS THE SAME as being a chaste straight
boy. The same goes for leaders. The real question the pastor should ask himself
is if (hypothetically) he would deny his own son, if the boy came out that he
was gay but hope to remain chaste through his youth.
Agree Life, Jesus would say go and sin no more. Nice work pastor, lets keep
moving forward and have more scouts pull out.Does anyone know why
this new scout policy could not have been a "don't ask, don't
BSA isn't proposing on January 1, 2014 of allowing homosexual scouts. It is
allowing scouts that stay morally clean with same-sex attraction, orientation,
and/or belief to be scouts. There is a difference.The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints allows someone with same-sex attraction,
orientation, and/or belief to serve as an active member in callings of
responsibility. It is only the persons actions that the Church teaches to be
wrong that causes the Church, or BSA to take action limiting the status of the
individual."AND WHEREAS, Scouting is a youth program, and any
sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is
contrary to the virtues of Scouting"The Church said this about
the proposed standard " a single standard of moral purity for youth in the
program, and a renewed emphasis for Scouts to honor their duty to God".Based on that, after Jan. 1, 2014, if you get a scout that has same-sex
attraction, orientation, and/or belief, and the scout follows the " single
standard of moral purity for youth in the program" he can participate. I
don't have an issue with that.
Things have not changed that much. The LDS stand just remains the same? Our Bishops and the local councils still have control...two deep
leadership, etc. will tend to keep things in line. No Bishop is going to call an
adult active gay to lead a scout troop under his jurisdiction. Nothing has
changed under the inspired leadership of Pres. Monson.
If boys shouldn't be in tents with girls, gays shouldn't be in tents
with straight boys No, not all gays would become attackers. Neither would most boys attack girls in tents. It is not
appropriate to force a straight boy to change clothes and sleep in a tent with
someone who is attracted to him That is not fair to the straight boy
Jesus would say,"Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more." See
The only person hurt by Humphrey's resignation is Humphrey himself.
It's unfortunate he mistakes his pride for principle.
Bigotry is not a "principle". What would Jesus do? Who would Jesus
Thank you for standing firm on your principles.
Good on ya, time for some other big hitters to do the same!