They will only applaud you when you agree with them. But stand up against what
you believe to be wrong and you will be derided as a bigot and a hater.
JBW - unfortunately, none ofbus know the full story. It seems strange that the
kids would be friends until they were teenagers and then be ostracized. Could
it be that his kids chose to go a different way. If they decided to start
drinking or sleeping around that makes a difference.. Many of my kids friends
are not LDS, but they have chosen to distance thamselves from a few who are
anti-LDS or whose conduct they are uncomfortable with, including some who are
LDS. They look to have friends who are good people regardless of their
@kosimov --"Is there any doubt that homosexuality and the
related vices are decried by God's Law?"Many good
Christians support gay rights and gay marriage, and many Christian denominations
support gay church weddings as well. Yes, there is widespread doubt on that
score.The OT laws were replaced by the New Covenant. Jesus himself
never said anything against homosexuality. In fact, homosexuality is never
mentioned in the Gospels.Paul is the only NT author who specifically
condemned homosexuality. Paul is also the one who supported slavery and believed
that women were inferior to men. He was a mortal man, and fallible.I'd rather listen to words from the Gospels than to the words of a
fallible mortal. "'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
" -- Mark 12:31"Judge not, that ye be not judged." -- Matthew
7:1"it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
But I tell you, love your enemies..." -- Matthew 5:43-44"A new
command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one
another. " -- John 13:34-- We are commanded to love EVERYONE,
whether or not we agree with them. Let God do the judging.
When this debate finishes, and a winner is declared, will that winner's
beliefs and attitudes then become "the law", or perhaps,
"right", "righteous", etc.?Or will those things
stand on their own with the meaning God gave/gives them trumping all of us?If so, why do we debate these things as though we can prove them
"right or wrong", of God or not, by one winning out over another in
debating the Laws of God? God made the Law as he made everything else. Is there
any doubt that homosexuality and the related vices are decried by God's
Law? Or are "we" saying that the Law is defined by sophisticated use of
language and thought?Just wonderin'
This is a difficult issue for many - including me. I have no trouble with loving
all people, even LGBT, as Christ commanded. But, even if one feels they belong
to the LGBT community, how can that be sustained while still living the laws of
the Kingdom, which Christ also commanded us to do? It seems to me that it is
only a matter of time until the LGBTs themselves call the LDS people among them
to either become fully involved in the LGBT lifestyle or stop claiming to be
LGBT. I don't claim to understand all this. I lived and worked in CA in
the 60's and 70's, where I knew many LGBT people, some of which were
my good friends, and I didn't worry about it. It seemed right for me to
not make that a "big deal" or use it to hate or otherwise abuse them.
So I am "innocent" of the bigotry and hate which many "straight"
people seem to feel around LGBTs. But, the idea that LDS students can be LGBT
and not be in conflict with their religious beliefs baffles me. Perhaps someone
will explain to me (please, no yelling!)
@sharrona --You can keep writing your own words into Bible quotes
just as much as you like. That won't ever make em REAL Bible quotes. ;-)Personally, I like these:"Judge not, that ye be not
judged." (Matthew 7:1)and----------"Let no
debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for
whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.The commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and
whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command:
“Love your neighbor as yourself.”Love does no harm to a
neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans
13: 8-10----------Paul wasn't perfect, but he did get it
right sometimes. :-)
RE: Amazondoc, A heart that manufactures wicked thoughts and plans, feet that
are swift in running to evil,(*pornography, adultery, homosexuality)(Proverbs
6:18)… the *lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and
the Pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world(1 John 2:16)Paul calls on both slaves and masters to show Christian relationship
and thus to attempt to change the institution within. (Col 3:22-41)1Cor 11 in context, Man and the woman were made for one another. They were to
be mutual comforts and blessings, not one a slave, and the other a tyrant. God
has so settled matters, both in the kingdom of providence and that of grace,
that the authority and subjection of each party should be for mutual help and
benefit. It was the common usage of the churches, for women to appear in public
assemblies, and join in public worship, veiled; and it was right that they
should do so. The Christian religion sanctions national customs wherever these
are not against the great principles of truth and holiness; affected
singularities receive no countenance from any thing in the Bible.
@Rikitikitavi --"The Savior also said "go thy way and sin no
more"."Right. **The Savior** said it. That's his job,
not yours.He also said: " Judge not, that ye be not judged."
(Matthew 7:1)@sharrona --Paul said "Slaves, obey
your earthly masters in everything". (Col 3:22). That's pretty
clear.Paul also said things like: "the head of every man is
Christ, and the head of the woman is man" (1 Col 11:3) and "For man did
not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but
woman for man" (1 Col 11:8-9) and "Women should remain silent in the
churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law
says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own
husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
(1 Cor 14:34-35)Paul also said that homosexual behavior was
unnatural -- as you yourself pointed out. We know that it actually isn't
unnatural at all, since it can easily be found in nature.Paul was a
mortal man, and fallible.
@Amazondoc Paul didn't like homosexuals. He also supported slavery and
thought women were inferior to men. Wrong, on both counts. Paul
expects Onesimus (a slave) to be freed literally from his yoke, as fellow
servants of Christ, they expect to realize their status of brotherhood and thus
equality with Christ. Contrarius ,see Philemon It’s in the N.T., Paul
had to deal with Roman Law. (Paul)Husbands, love your wives, just as
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, to make her holy, cleansing
her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself
as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and
blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own
bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.(Eph 5:25-29). For Adam was first
formed, then Eve; (1Ttim 2;13) Paul appeals to the created order, Adam and
EvePeter agrees with,(Paul’s) letters contain some things that
are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do
the other Scriptures, to their own destruction(2 Peter 3:16)
The Savior also said "go thy way and sin no more".
Whose idea was it for you to attend the parade? (Just a reminder, this is an LDS
Church owned newspaper.)Strange you focused on the "loud
applause" given to the Mormons Building Bridges. What is that supposed to
mean? Should applause or worldly praise be our goal or ambition? These are
people who have a moral weakness applauding Mormons who condone that behavior.
Help me out with this one, Pat.
Thank you LordPillsbury for the most sensible comment so far. Unfortunately for the Building Bridges group, their marching in this parade
looks too much like condoning homosexual activity than simply loving the person
who has same gender attraction. They could tone down their loud public
"support" and still get their message across that we love the sinner but
not the sin. Does anyone else now cringe at the sight of the rainbow
symbol? It's a shame that this group has hijacked a lovely gift from our
Father in Heaven and made it a symbol of something that is sinful. I have little
girls who love to draw rainbows. Now the sight of my children's drawn
rainbow pictures just make me uncomfortable. But I still love a rainbow in the
sky because I know it's from God.s from God.
@Chris B"I won't pat you on the head for your decision to be
gay."I'm not gay (you all really need to stop assuming
everyone who supports gay rights is gay).
Sad to see "this" in Utah.
Sounds like some Mormons may be subtly rewriting the terms of the debate. If
that is so, it is very, very welcome. The word on the street has been that you
are either a head-over-heels social liberal, or an atavistic Bible-thumping
"homophobe." Every position in between essentially does not count.
Hopefully that is loosening up. I'm tired of everyone being a demon or a
@LordPillsbury --"Since when did "loving" have anything
to do with "condoning"? "It doesn't need to. Your
job is to love your neighbor. Judging is GOD's job, not yours.There is no victim in homosexuality -- nobody is being harmed, aside from
possibly the homosexual him/herself (depending on your religious views).
Therefore, **even if you think homosexuality is a sin**, you have no right to
prevent that homosexual from acting on his orientation with another consenting
homosexual. Homosexuals have the right to commit perceived sins just like anyone
else does, so long as those sins do not harm others. God will sort them out --
not you.You can "hate the sin" as much as you like -- but
"loving the sinner" includes allowing that perceived sinner to make
his/her own choices, even when you believe that the choices are wrong. You are
free to tell that perceived sinner that you believe he/she is doing wrong -- but
you should accept that his/her decisions are not yours to make.Morality is all about Free Will -- and that means you need to respect the free
will of EVERYBODY -- not just the people you happen to agree with.
I think that there is a lot of confusion with regards to "love one
another". Since when did "loving" have anything to do with
"condoning"? Jesus indeed said that we should love one another, but he
was also very clear in condemning sin. He showed compassion for the woman caught
in adultery, protected her from her accusers and dispersed the crowd with great
words of wisdom. But don't forget that he told her to go "and sin no
more". As the old saying goes, "Love the sinner, hate the sin".If the purpose of Mormons Building Bridges is just about loving one
another, I think the church has always had that view. Perhaps in recent years
the language and tone of that message has evolved, but yet the same message.My personal experience with the gay community has given me the
perspective that the community is highly sexually charged and is more about the
"act of sex" then of "relationships" and "love".
@Absolutely Right --"But simply saying something is not a sin
doesn't make it so."Even the LDS church acknowledges that
same-sex attraction is not a sin. If you want to argue with the church, go right
ahead and do that. ;-)from the Mormons and Gays website -- Quote: "Same-sex attraction itself is not a sin".Quote:
"Attraction to those of the same sex...should not be viewed as a disease or
illness."@sharrona --"*Agape=Godly Love not
Eros(erotic) Love. Do you agape love your neighbor?"Did I say
that I was talking about erotic love? Noooooo, I didn't. You're
jumping to conclusions, Sharrona. ;-)My actual point was that we
should love everyone -- including homosexuals -- instead of condemning them, no
matter what we may think of their sexual orientation.And yes, we do
already realize that Paul didn't like homosexuals. He also supported
slavery and thought women were inferior to men."Pauls says
it's against(para) physis(nature)." That's another
good example of Paul being wrong about something. Thanks for posting it!Many non-human species exhibit homosexual behavior at times. Therefore,
by definition, we know that homosexual behavior is not unnatural.
RE: Contrarius, “Love (*agape)your neighbor as yourself.”
Love(*agape) does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love(*agape) is the
fulfillment of the law. *Agape=Godly Love not Eros(erotic) Love. Do you agape
love your neighbor?OK, You quote Paul OK, “for the sexually
immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and
perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine(1 Tim
1:10 NIV) For Adam was first formed, then Eve; (1Ttim 2;13) Paul
appeals to the created order, Adam and Eve. Pauls says it’s against(para)
physis(nature). Romans 1:26.. the unrighteous will not inherit the
kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters,
nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality(1Cor 6:9)
Homosexual activity, in any and all forms, is immoral. Period.Now,
is that "uncivil"?Is that "inflammatory"?The DesNews guidelines say that our comments should not be meant to
"provoke" anyone, but how do you say "wrong" and
"immoral" without saying "wrong" and "immoral"?
cont'd ... Just don't show your intolerance which to me makes u
appear a hypocrite. Rather, accept that we are all different and at different
stages of understanding & let's post what WE think will help others
become more educated, tolerant and accepting of a point of view that we may
hold, & leave it at that! Just saying!!
@ Contrarius.Lovely straw man you're building there. No one is
talking about putting people in jail. People commit sins all day and aren't
thrown in jail, and many of those sins are of the mental variety - hate,
prejudice, greed, avarice, and lust come to mind.But simply saying
something is not a sin doesn't make it so.
@Chris B --"Simply being gay has never created anything of
value."Gay people deserve to be proud of themselves simply for
surviving. Remember -- in the US they are 8 times more likely to be the victims
of violent crimes; 4-5 times more likely to commit suicide; and roughly 1/3 of
all homeless youth are gay. All are due in significant part to generalized
homophobia."I'm getting tiresome"You said
it, not me. ;-)"wanting me to pat them on the head"Nobody forced you to go to that Pride Parade."I won't pat
you on the head for your decision to be gay"Even the LDS church
acknowledges that being gay is NOT a choice.From the Mormons and
Gays website:Quote: "Same-sex attraction itself is not a
sin".Quote: "Attraction to those of the same sex...should not be
viewed as a disease or illness."Quote: "individuals do not choose
to have such attractions"Quote: "Members of the Church who have
same-sex attractions, but don't act on them, can continue to enjoy full
fellowship in the church, which includes holding the priesthood, carrying out
callings, and attending the temple."
joe5, you were right to be in the place where you thought you should be. But no
need to find fault with others who thought they should be elsewhere, or you may
be guilty of the judgement that you fear was part of the Pride festivities.
Those marching to support love and understanding felt they were expressing to
the thousands watching the parade the principles taught on the church's
mormonsandgays.org website. I was with Mormons Building Bridges, and we sang
hymns, had prayer, and our signs were mostly from scriptures, hymns, or words of
church leaders. We had our spirits lifted as we sought to lift the spirits of
others. It was very nice to be with such loving, kind people.
@ father of four. I said re evaluate. The ones you named are easy pickens for
me. List a few more for me and save me the time to look them up. I will choose
what I can and go for that. I know they do not care about me but it all adds up
and I will feel better. Nuff said?
@alt,Pioneer day is celebrated as true accomplishments by Mormon
pioneers helped set up this great area we live in.Simply being gay
has never created anything of value.I'm getting tiresome of the
gays screaming to the world they are gay, wanting me to pat them on the head for
the decision to be gay.I never asked you to pat me on the head for
being straight. I won't pat you on the head for your decision to be gay.
Sorry. Deal with it.
@Absolutely Right --"That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust
after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."It's a good thing we don't throw people in jail every time they
*think* about wanting to kill their bosses. ;-)We are not Thought
Police. People are judged by their ACTIONS.@joe5 --"I was at church (where I knew I am supposed to be). "Wow.
"Holier than thou" and "judge not, lest ye be also judged" come
to mind here.Do you have a crystal ball? If not, how do you know
whether those parade-goers had or had not attended church either before or after
the parade?"A parade centered on pride. A focus on self instead
of others."Lessee, just a coupla examples coming up this summer
--Pioneer Day parade -- the motto this year is "We Are
Pioneers" -- but ohhhhh, nooooo, don't mistake that for pride....
;-)Civic pride parades -- for example, Art City Days Grand Parade or Cedar
Hills Family Festival parade or Orem Summerfest parade -- no, of course they
have no pride in their own communities...Cmon. Where do you get off,
pretending that pride in oneself is a bad thing??
I guess there are worse things that LDS people can do on Sunday besides hunting,
fishing, camping, etc... I'm glad I was at church.
Proverbs 23:7 - Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither
desire thou his dainty meats: For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he...Matthew 5:28 - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to
lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.So the LDS Church has decided that what was declared a sin by Jesus is no
longer a sin? Or is it only homosexual impulses that are exempted? Is it still a
sin if a man looks on a woman with lust?
@joe5There are no parades or any sense of pride on Pioneer Day?
@Kellie;The "gay lifestyle" is identical to the "straight
lifestyle". We get up, shower, go to work, come home, do some chores and
watch a little TV, play with the kids, etc.@rhappahannock;"From a strategy standpoint,..."You make religion sound
like a military maneuver.@joe5;Good for you. You could
try for just a bit more sanctimony though, there just wasn't quite enough
in your comment.@FrankSegesman;"‘After a while
the gentiles will gather in Salt Lake City by the thousands, and this will be
among the wicked cities of the world.”Holier than thou?
J. Golden Kimball, 1930: I claim not to be a prophet, but I am a son of a
prophet, and I expect to give you evidence-whether you question the truth of it
or not-that shall be left with you-that Heber C. Kimball was a prophet of God.
President Brigham Young on more than one occasion said: ‘Heber is my
prophet, and I love to hear him prophesy.’ In May, 1868-that is sixty-two
years ago–he said: ‘After a while the gentiles will gather in Salt
Lake City by the thousands, and this will be among the wicked cities of the
@Betcha --"stop trying to think you belong to something bigger
than it is."You *are* aware that most countrywide polls now show
that more than 50% of Americans are in FAVOR of gay marriage -- right?@sharrona --"Honor your Father and Mother”=[not
significant Others]"The people of the Bible did not have the
technologies for artificial insemination or surrogacy, nor were the practices of
adoption or divorce widespread.They also didn't have airplanes,
or SCUBA gear, or heart transplants, or a million other things that we do
now.Shall we automatically assume that all such things are evil,
simply because the Bible didn't mention them?-----"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one
another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.The
commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not
murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not
covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one
command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”Love does no
harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13: 8-10
It is not just a Boy Scout issue. I had a boss who was not a member of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints nor any of his family members. His
children were treated similar with the children of the LDS families in his
neighborhood until his children became teenagers and then they were treated
differently than the other LDS children and basically ostracized from dealing
with the LDS children and families. Almost all families and
extended families have children who may have different views and beliefs than
one believes in. However, Christ did tell us to love one another. We should
teach our children that principle along with others that teach our children. We
may need to be screen the difference of actions versus the person’s
beliefs. It is not easy but there are so many reason children are influenced or
changed by other’s actions, such as abuse or other influences. It is too hard to know all circumstances of a person’s life and
experiences. Christ didn’t say love everyone except “that
one”. It is incumbent on us to show love to all people.
I was at church (where I knew I am supposed to be). Being fast Sunday, we held
testimony meeting. I listened carefully as person after person stood up and
expressed faith, humility, gratitude and love. Sunday school and priesthood
classes were both built around messages of service for others.I
couldn't help but contrast what I was experiencing with what I knew was
going on outside the doors of our church. A parade centered on pride. A focus on
self instead of others. Demanding speeches instead of gratitude. Judgement of
those who don't share the same opinion instead of love.I'm
glad I was where I was.
The real bridges that the church needs to build are in Africa, where the church
is growing rapidly. That is where the real work of church is being
accomplished. However, many churches are growing rapidly in Africa,
and Islam is also growing rapidly. From a strategy standpoint, it is vital that
the church devote more resources to the work in Africa, as it will pay off in
the long-term establishment of the church. It makes little sense to devote so
many missionaries to areas with little success when the field is ripe in
Africa.The entire "pride parade supporters" is a
distraction. The GLBT community is simply never going to agree with the church
on fundamental practices. It is much more important to build bridges, churches,
and schools in Africa.
I knew a gay guy who was devastated when he found out that all of his non-gay
friends loved him but they thought his gay lifestyle was perverted. He thought
that by virtue of being his good friends that they accepted his gay lifestyle
too. Nope. Just because someone is friends with a gay person doesn't mean
they support homosexuality.
airnaut, the main Internet site for Mormons Building Bridges in on Facebook. If
you join there you can get reminders of the parade and other events they are
sponsoring or participating in. They are a joy to be around--no political
agenda, just love and understanding for all.
Ah, I knew the anti's would show up sometime. Finally, we were missing you
I'm not sure what parade the DN photographer attended, but the Pride Parade
photos I saw were far more revealing.Is this newspaper trying to sell us
Every day is a cause for a celebration, life is a single jump for joy. Love,
honor, and friendship go together to stay together. It takes a life time to have
a good reputation and a fraction of a second to destroy it.
@Mohokat,Those corporate sponsors include Zions Bank, Wells Fargo,
Chase, FedEx, Lexus, EMC, US Bank, Google, Microsoft, Verizon, SmartWater,
Nordstrom, HBO, CBS, AT&T, Audi, and Lexus just to name a few. Just to be
safe you should probably never buy anything from anyone or do any business
anywhere at all. Have fun.
Wow, Some of you people should head back to school and learn how to count, the
article said, "Tens of Thousands of people" are you kidding me? I
don't know where you were looking, but I saw the whole thing, and maybe 7
or 8 thousand at the MOST... I know this organizations wants to think that they
are in the majority, but your not. Maybe you could really feel pride in
yourselves when you stop trying to be something your not, and stop trying to
think you belong to something bigger than it is.
RE: Contrarius,”"… and thou shalt love(*agape) thy neighbor as
thyself; I am the Lord. (Leviticus 19:18 LXX)=The Greek O.T.. The
second(commandment) is this: ‘Love(*agape)your neighbor as
yourself.’…(Mark 12:31)*Agape Love, The Lord(YHWH/Jesus) did
not say eros(erotic) love. A neighbor ,according to Christ, any other man
irrespective of nation or religion with whom we live or whom we chance to
meet.Ephesians 6:2,3. Honor your Father and Mother”=[not significant
Others],which is the first commandment with a promise. God distinguishes father
and mother from all other persons on earth, chooses them and sets them next to
Himself, occupying the highest place in our lives next to God..
@mohcat Pretty sure they are not going to miss you since you now
represent an ever shrinking minority opinion. See ya
Well I will have to re evaluate my support for a few so called corporate
sponsors! Bye Bye
Wonderful festival this year with incredible turnout!
pride. noun 1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's
own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind
or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc. 2. the state or
feeling of being proud. 3. a becoming or dignified sense of
what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect;
self-esteem. 4. pleasure or satisfaction taken in something
done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself:
civic pride. 5. something that causes a person or persons to
be proud: His art collection was the pride of the family.
Beautiful. Thank you Mormon Building Bridges. You are true Disciples of Christ
and have set a wonderful example or many.
As I have loved you, Love one another. This new commandment: Love oneanother. By this shall men know. Ye are my disciples.Jesus never
said hate and disparage all you disagree with. Glad to see people marched to
What the?...This was today?I missed it!Where was
the announcements for it?Kudos to everyone who attended, and
Thanks Mormons Building Bridges!Wished I could've been there with
I had a nephew and a niece, both active members of the church, marching in the
parade today. Proud of them!And btw, this is the _best_ parade in
Hey, this news about the Pride Parade is great. And kudos to the Mormons
Building Bridges group -- what a great thing you are doing. And I LOVE that some
folks came in their BSA outfits!A big round of applause from me to
all of y'all. Keep up the good work!