RE: Twin Lights, said, the Triune God, Christ did not preach or teach it to any
significant degree??(Mt 28:19 NIV) “Therefore, go and make disciples
of all the nations=(ethnic, black or white) baptizing them in the NAME of the
Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. The Trinity, there are three
persons, but one name, but one God.Baptism signifies a full and
eternal consecration of the person to the service and honor of that Being in
whose Name it is administered; but this consecration can never be made to a
creature; therefore the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are not
creatures. i.e..,God said unto Moses,” I am “(the
BEING)=HE WHO IS: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
HE WHO IS hath sent me unto you. (LXX Ex 3:14)*WHO IS=( G. ὁ
ὤν/The one Being) occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5.
Like(John 1:1),In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. The Trinity in the N.T..
Same to you, Twin Lights!
Res Novae,I enjoy your comments and restrained style.Thank you.
@JoeBlow"How did this confusion come about? Why would church
leaders have not clarified this point many years ago if it was in error?"I'll take a stab within the word limit, not to convince you but to
give my perspective. The thing is it's not in error. It's actually a
logical inference from doctrine and has deep roots in Mormonism's
speculative theology phase. At the same time, it isn't
doctrinal either. It should be recognized as speculative and part of
"folklore" that Mormons can take or leave. It highlights
Mormonism's do-it-yourself approach to much of its theology, and the
tensions between having both personal revelation and a top-down approach to
doctrine. The paradoxes resulting from this approach are frustrating and
awkward to navigate, but also give Mormonism an underrated depth and
vitality.I don't care for the whole "planet" thing
because 1) it's understating our relationship to the Divine, 2) it runs the
danger of making our lives' objective just a big power trip, and 3)
it's something critics throw out in the same sentence as "cult" and
"gold bible" - pretty wackadoo without understanding the context and
background of it.
eastcoastcougI feel your pain with the endless debate by antagonists
of our faith with so called scholarly wisdom and points not revealed by the
Bible or otherwise. As you know, faith is not acquired by academic or vicarious
scrutiny of eternal truths by worldly knowledge.There are many of
the same users who frequent the blogs of this site who are very quick to
denounce many truths spoken in articles by authors. I seem the same names popup
repeatedly right after an article is published. They pick apart truths and
attempt to replace them with longstanding and modern false precepts of the
world. Such rhetoric has always been present in the halls of history through
many cunning ways.While I feel your frustration and recognize people
cannot see God's truths through contentious replies, I believe it is
incumbent upon latter day saints to defend truth in the Lord's prescribed
manner, whether that comes in the form of clarification, a gentile rebuke, or
with sharpness. This should always then be folllowed by an increase of love,
even for those who seek to tear down the kingdom of God on the earth today.
Mainstream is the Great and Spacious building. Yet now, many more are looking
out different windows and porches of that Great Building to see those of us who
are holding on to the iron rod. For some their viewpoint is different now. In
this process, I will keep holding and they can keep watching. I will offer my
voice and a place to grip on to the rod next to me or anywhere else they can
grab and hold on. The ride for some has yet to begin.
Skeptic, about your question: "How does one explain the millions of
different religious believers around the world who feel they obtain spiritual
confirmation of their believes."Every person born into this world has
access to the tutelage of the Holy Ghost. Moroni 10:5 says that "By the
power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of ALL things."However,
truth can't be learned all in one intellectual or spiritual bite. It has to
be learned in increments. The function of the Holy Ghost is to help us
climb the ladder a step at a time. Or as Paul so aptly says in ICor 3:2, "I
have fed you with milk and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear
it."One of the goals of the Holy Ghost is to lead us to baptism. After
baptism, the Holy Ghost also functions as the access door to the saving and
enabling grace of the atonement of the Savior. This process is referred to as
the refiner's fire or the baptism of fire.The Holy Ghost testifies to
our spirit as to each and every forward step we take in our journey to higher
and higher truths.
All this bickering about doctrine reminds me of the Pharisees in Christ's
day who were more concerned about what they knew and following the right rules,
rather than what kind of people they were. Life is tough enough. Why
do you non LDS and skeptics beat up on others who are trying to live a good life
same as you are? Why do some of you LDS quote scripture to put someone down who
doesn't believe the way you do? Christ only condemned the hypocrites.
Let's try working together to better the world rather than bickering!!
If indeed we are to become like God someday, it means we will have to learn how
to serve, sacrifice, allow others the freedom to choose, love without expecting
love back, appreciate that the deepest learning often comes from sorrow and
sadness, etc. Christ's edict that "he that is greatest
among you will be your servant" is the way God lives and loves us. How many of you who are concerned about the idea of
"having-your-own-planet" realize what real ownership involves??This is why Christ said the meek will inherit the Earth...
Sharrona,One of the essential points of modern Christianity may be
the Triune God, but Christ did not preach or teach it to any significant degree.
He always spoke of God as a separate person and addresses Him as such. If
anyone could have made such a complex doctrine clear, it would have been Christ.
He took a pass. Either because he thought it unimportant or because he thought
the reality was simpler and clearer.Also, if other Christian
denominations agree so much, what was all that killing of Catholics and
Protestants about during the reformation?
maclouieWith changeability and God, consider that God only reveals
His works according to the degree of faith that is on the earth at any given
time. It is not God's Works or Church that changes, but the authority,
doctrine, and eternal truths that can be known.The Israelites of the
Old Testament spent 40 years in the wilderness before entering the promise land
because they were slow to follow God's laws and will. Because they
continued to sin while Moses was on the mount, God chose to give the lesser
authority of His Priesthood to them. The strict carnal commandments in the Law
of Moses was given because faith was lacking, and it pointed the way to Christ
as a type or shadow of Him.In the meridian of time during
Christ's mortal ministry, the greater Priesthood authority was given to the
Apostles who then administered those ordinances and God's Church in that
day until this church also fell away in unbelief. When Joseph Smith
was called to be the prophet of the restoration during the "fullness of
times", God revealed more works according to the faith of the people in the
Americas at that time.
skepticConsider all who ever walked this earth are literal spirit
children of God. They possess His immortal substance in their spiritual DNA
much like physical DNA is made from earthly materials.We are a
conduit for receiving divine communication. This is given by decree of Heaven
according to God's will and choices we make in this life. God communicates
to our spirits regularly, which is experienced through the physical body by
subtle means. The important concept to understand, and the answer
to your question, resides at a juncture when our mind is ready to align with
God's will. This is when we are sufficiently prepared with humility,
intent to follow God, and conviction to look away from the world for a greater
truth.Or as the scriptures say, when our hearts are set upon the
world, we cannot know God for His word is foolishness. But, when we humbled by
life experiences to seek God over all the riches of the world, then we can
receive eternal truths from the Holy Ghost. Like a radio signal trying to find
a receiver, this never means God does not communicate. Rather, the question is,
are we prepared to receive?
RE: Eternal progression applies to God, too, right? Wrong,“In the
beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God(John
1:1). “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage,
Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the
Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute
three distinct personages and “three Gods” (Teachings of the Prophet
Joseph Smith, p. 370)And now, behold, this is the doctrine of
Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the
Holy Ghost, which is ‘one God’, without end. ( 2Nephi 31:21).RE; Twin Lights,[No]mis-characterization of the Church and doctrine as
non-Christian.One of the essentials of the “Pale” of
Christianity is the Tri-une God.The Father, the Word, and the Holy
Spirit; and these three are one (**heis) these three agree as one(*en) (1John
5:7,8 KJV translation & JST) 3 persons one God. "one in
substance”.(*en 1722, Preposition) But (**heis,1520=the#1)
different Greek words.
Dear sharrona:If God is unchangeable then please explain the hateful
God at Noah's time and the loving God of Jesus vs the resurrected God with
a body going to Heaven vs the God is a spirit thing. Seems like Jews are the
only ones that understand what unchangeable really means.If God is
unchangeable then he is a statue, right?My opinion, I agree with
Bill Clinton, depends what the definition is, or in other words, God does change
and is not unchangeable. Even God's laws have changed. Eternal progression
applies to God, too, right?
EternalPerspective,Your post brings up the question, Is the Holy Ghost
also American and exclusive to Mormons. If not how does one explain the millions
of different religious believers around the world who feel they obtain spiritual
confirmation of their believes. Are they all wrong, or are there contradictory
truths, how can that be. Please explain.
Joseph Smith wrote 13 Articles of Faith. Growing up Mormon we memorized them.
They are still at the core of our beliefs today and are still being taught to
the young children growing up. It isn't fair to say things like
"Mormons believe..." this or that strange doctrine that isn't
remotely related to our core beliefs, especially when those 13 Articles of Faith
are not even considered.Mainstream Christianity is composed of
various denominations, most of which have split off from the Catholic church due
to some differing interpretation of what the Bible says. So if someone
disagrees with what other churches think is important they can go out and form
their own.There are changes within The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints as there have been in Biblical times. Sometimes the changes
are a result of current needs and sometimes to correct human misunderstandings.
The prophet Nathan first told King David he could build a temple, then came back
the next day and said, (paraphrasing) "No. The Lord doesn't want you
to, but your son Solomon is supposed to do it later." That almost seems
like the Lord was being changeable, but not really.
I really do not understand HOW there can be this much confusion on something as
big as this.It would seem to me that the church tries to ignore or
walk back those aspects of teachings that outsiders find very unusual.I have LDS friends and family that absolutely believe that , " after a
long long time, the most worthy will get their own planet"How
did this confusion come about? Why would church leaders have not
clarified this point many years ago if it was in error?
The responses to this article typify differences on religion as defined by
worldly viewpoints and those enlightened by the Holy Ghost to know of eternal
knowledge, or things as they really are. Does enlightenment mean
all questions are answered? Is there no room for error with interpretation of
personal revelation? Do certain words spoken historically destroy faith in what
has not been seen by those alive today?Simply put, if you want to
know if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is what it claims to be
as the only true and living Church of Jesus Christ with His authority, you must
sincerely look for yourself with firsthand investigation. Words are fickle
things of human engineering when they are predicated upon doubt for the works of
God.Many here and on other forums across the internet use minutia as
counterarguments, but demonstrate very little truth. Rather they exist as clear
provocation to dissuade members or investigators away from the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints. They redirect and distill God's truths with
worldly knowledge. Such may draw some away, but they know not truth beyond what
the world gives.
GeoMan is correct. It is not about mainstreaming the LDS Church, it is about
resisting marginalization and mis-characterization of the Church and doctrine as
Mormonism is live Legos, it can be whatever one wishes to make it to be. If one
is not satisfied with the work, then one needs oly to change it to what is
Brahmabull: Joseph taught us the basics of what God wanted us to know and the
leaders today tfollow-up on the same principles.
Re: getting your own planet. I've never heard this taught in any official
capacity. One can certainly find quotes if one does enough searching.
Personally, I think the idea both badly understates the ultimate scale of human
potential, and completely misses the point of God's relationship with us in
LDS theology. Re: changing doctrines. Some see this as a weakness.
I think it's Mormonism's great strength (though sometimes frustrating
in practice). The Church teaches that we can learn greater truths over time.
Truths lead to change. I think we shortchange ourselves (individually and
collectively) if we're afraid to embrace the change that greater light and
knowledge bring.Re: mainstreaming Mormonism. Bad idea. American
religious history repeatedly shows that mainstreaming a religion inevitably
leads to its decline.@LValfre"When the brethren have
spoken the thinking is done."That statement was explicitly
condemned by President George A. Smith when it first appeared in a church
publication. It has not ever been considered doctrine, no matter how determined
some Mormons I know seemingly want it to be. If you are going to play that
card, you have to address many, many statements that completely contradict your
@sharronaCould we read and comprehend all that has been written from
the days of Adam, on the relation of man to God and angels in a future state, we
should know very little about it. Reading the experience of others, or the
revelation given to them, can never give us a comprehensive view of our
condition and true relation to God. Knowledge of these things can only be
obtained by experience through the ordinances of God set forth for that purpose.
Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by
reading all that ever was written on the subject. (Joseph Smith,
Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Alma P. Burton, p.156)It was not God that changed in 1844.
RE:The mainstreaming of Mormonism?Mormon historian Thomas G.
Alexander , “Much of the doctrine that early investigators found in
Mormonism was similar to contemporary Protestant churches.”Christians agree with, Moroni 8:18, “God is not a partial God, neither
a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all
eternity.” Psalm 90:2,… from everlasting to everlasting, you are
God.”J S preached his famous King Follett Discourse in 1844.
He taught, “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and
sits enthroned in yonder heavens. “Here, then, is eternal life,to know the
only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and
to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before
you...”Lorenzo Snow , “As man is God once was, and as
God is man may be.”The only way to reconcile the 1844 JS with
the 1830 JS is if the definition of unchangeable has changed. God is
American now,He’s Mormon.” Christians believe God (the father) is
Spirit (John 4:24)
"On the other hand, seeing the word “Mormon” sprinkled all over
the media today like popcorn salt means members of The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints need to have a good sense..." of humor!
Max - the doctrine of the church is ever changing. What the current leaders
consider doctrine and truth vary vastly from whay Joseph Smith revealed. That
cannot be disputed.
Mormons are Christians
@DonP"The 'get your planet' stuff may be more folklore
than doctrine, however, I joined the church in 1969 and definitely heard that
taught at the time, along with the constitution hanging by a thread and that one
day we will all have to walk back to Independence, Missouri. Lots of stories are
told, some of them more folklore than doctrine. We members need to be able to
distinguish between the two."No the member's do not need to
distinguish between the two. They need to listen to what the current mainstream
LDS Inc. says is doctrine and is folklore. When the brethren have spoken the
thinking is done.
Good afternoon Dennis, You obviously didn't read my post
carefully. I am speaking ONLY about the notion that we will have our own
planets. You also did not notice that the entire second paragraph was cut and
pasted directly from a document called MORMONISM 101 FAQ from the Church's
website. Those are not my words or my opinions, they are from the leadership of
the church! So don't quibble with me, quibble with them. Google MORMONISM
101: FAQ NEWSROOM and it will pop up. At the very bottom there is a list of
common questions, most of which are designed to deal myths about the church. I
suggest you read all of them.
For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me; And he that receiveth me
receiveth my Father; And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my
Father's kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto
him.(D&C 84:36-38)That might include our own planet but
paraphrasing Bill Clinton it depends on how you define the word "all"
The LDS church does believe in eternal progression so that the spirit children a
righteous person now would have would continue some sort of cycle, that's
roughly as far as any doctrine on the matter goes. The planet thing is a really
simplistic (and arguably insultingly simplified) take on it. There
are a lot of unanswered questions involved. For instance, if it were to end up
being like a new cycle, would those spirit children then need to get bodies on
some world and need Jesus (or some replacement for Jesus in which case who would
that be?) for salvation of their own? It's kinda fun to think about but the
church doesn't make any claims about answering any of those rambling
questions I just threw out there.
Both JS and BY are ordained and set aside to be Kings here on earth, that is
pretty good entry position. You pay your dues, you get your ticket punched.
The church has a long, hard history of stating things as doctrine and then
retracting them when things get a little tough, or questions get asked. Members
will take one statement from a previous prophet as fact, or doctrine. In the
next breath they will say another statement was only opinion and it doesn't
matter because only what the the current prophet says matters. So there is a
history there of not knowing what is actually doctrine, opinion, both, neither,
etc. It gets perpetuated because members pick and choose what statements are
doctrine and which are not.
Dennis, as a lifelong member I know just where you're coming from. That
said, Max is correct: He didn't make that quote up - it is directly
published by the Church, itself, after doctrinal review - and the Church has no
*official* doctrine stating that even the most righteous among us will
definitely have responsibility for our own worlds/planets.
Misconception usually results from lack of knowledge. If anyone has questions
or concerns about planets or gods or Christianity or walking to Missouri then
one needs to do more indepth study. It's all there but some effort needs
to be included. If we choose to rely on short statements from others then
we'll never have the complete picture.
I think the planet thing sounds trite. Why limit it to a planet? Why can't
I have my own universal reality?
"Loose, alert, and resilient" sounds about right. Sadly it is easy to
buckle under the pressure. While the world is in some ways more pluralistic, it
is no more tolerant. There are so many voices with their opinions. Like mine
If Mormonism believes that mainstream Chrisiianty is Apostate, Why then are
they trying so hard to be seen as just another mainstream Christian Church?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has no desire to be in "the
mainstream of Christian religion." Nor does the Church of Jesus Christ wish
to be marginalized by being mischaracterized and misrepresented.Rather, members of the Church of Jesus Christ consider themselves to be
Christians and simply object to being labeled as "not Christian" because
taking His name upon themselves is part of the Baptismal Covenant they have
made.Conversely, those that try to label members of the Church as
"not Christian" are doing so because they wish to marginalize and
demonize the members of the Church. While they are free to do so, it
doesn't make it true or accurate.Standing our ground while
turning the other cheek is not the same thing as trying to be
The 'get your planet' stuff may be more folklore than doctrine,
however, I joined the church in 1969 and definitely heard that taught at the
time, along with the constitution hanging by a thread and that one day we will
all have to walk back to Independence, Missouri. Lots of stories are told, some
of them more folklore than doctrine. We members need to be able to distinguish
between the two.
"We are a peculiar people" is no longer their marching order. That
doesn't work in today's world so they have to change to mainstream.
And yes, getting a planet is part of the deal, Max.
Mainstream is where the political power is. Southern baptists know that.
The LDS church is determined to push Mormonism into the mainstream of Christian
religion. It will never work, it is like trying to pound a square peg into a
round hole. Mormons and traditional Christians are two very different religions.
The LDS church would do better being true to its self and stay out of the main
Good Morning Max,I don't know which part of Mormonism you've
grown up with but having been in the Church for over 60 years I don't where
you get this particular notion.Slightly quoting "As man is God once
was, as God is man will become". Living in Utah my entire life the teachings
of the Church have expounded that we "will" become Gods and have our own
"planets" and human family to look after based on obedience.Granted this is a very complex issue but I dare say that a good 80%+ of the
current generation of devout LDS men believe this doctrine.The funny thing
about the Church mainstreaming is the likelihood of it's loosing it's
identity within the mix of Christianity. This is a dangerous step for the
Church and one that must be tread lightly.
The author probably should have mentioned that the "get your own planet"
stuff is something Mormons actually do not believe. There is a lot in the Book
of Mormon Musical that Mormons do not believe. Repeating it here without
explanation simply perpetuates the error. This is what Mormon 101 from
church's website says:Do Latter-day Saints believe that they
will “get their own planet”?No. This idea is not taught in
Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This
misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural
doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all
of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our
Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never
purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that
“in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).