How much skin one shows and it's modesty rating is determined by the
circumstances. Female VB players (indoor and outdoor) wear very tiny shorts and
yet the men do just the opposite and wear longer shorts, so the argument
can't be about function only. BYU VB player walks to class in her VB shorts
and is reported for an Honor Code violation...not appropriately dressed. At what
point can we determine modesty? It's a moving target. Switch channels to
younger girl dance squads with their mimicking of adult exotic dance moves and
yet everyone smiles and says how cute they are with their hip thrusts and
swivels. And the protests from women about being sex objects! Yeah I get
it...you're wearing those 6" stilettos and that barely there LBD
because it's comfortable? At a club with similarly dressed women you
wouldn't stand out too much...but wear it to church and the RS presidency
will tackle you. Modest? Sex symbol? Too many of us are programmed to associate
nudity with eroticism and that's where the trouble starts.
Some of the scantiliest clad women you will see are women volleyball players and
women track athletes (including BYU). Just saying.....
Wow, if only every woman on earth was as wonderful as the author the world would
be darn near perfect. Having standards is a wise and prudent thing to do.
However, passing judgement on others and surmising absolutes without any
concrete objectivity is just the opposite and in addition does not adhere to
those sttandards. Besides your standards are not mine and vice versa.
"I don't believe for a second that these women are proud of what they
do... How can they, when the whole point of their job is to encourage people to
look anywhere but their eyes?"Some women actually like dressing
in clothing deemed inappropriate by the LDS church because they want attention.
It does not mean they are inviting men to physically abuse them or worse. It
simply means they want attention. Is that type of attention right for you? Well
that's up for you to decide. But seriously Carmen, just because you
don't want men to look at you like that does not mean that there are not
women who do. Some of the women may in fact feel proud of what they are doing.
Perhaps you would be wise to not reflect your values on the actions
of others. This is especially true, when it comes to interpreting how other
people feel about their own actions. Personally I won't teach
my kids to dress like that, because I personally feel it attracts the wrong type
of attention, but what I call wrong attention some non lds women might call
Interview the women who work in these jobs... in nearly every case you will
find, it is an attitude of taking full advantage of the 'gawkers' ---
the men are absolutely objectified too, they are nothing but walking wallets ...
money dispensing pieces of flesh to be used until the cash is gone... and
that's the extent of it -- objectification on both sides 100%.Of course, the women are the only ones who are worth worrying about as victims
of objectification! ;-) wink wink
". . . you judge people like me as prudes. . ."Wow,
that's interesting. Going back over my comments I couldn't find a
single one aimed at you personally. You really are missing the point. I
don't think anyone has a right to tell others what to do. Yet people
somehow think they should be able to tell woman what to do. You see a clear
example of this in Islamic countries, and when others try to shame women into
acting as they want you see an example of it here. No, I never said
anything about you, or anyone else, choosing to dress, or act, as they want. If
you are a "prude", whatever that is, then truly good for you. If you
choose to wear less reveling clothing, then indeed, it is none of my business,
and enjoy your life in peace. I have no right to tell you what you should do, or
even judge you. Carmen did not HAVE to fight to wear what she wanted
to. She chose to be on Fear Factor. I'm not arguing in support
of "women as entertainment", rather that no one owns them. Do you really
Marc, I'm going to give this one last shot. We are arguing for two
completely different things . You're arguing for personal freedom and zero
judgment, I'm arguing for a society that values and respects women such
that neither women or men would want women (or men!) to use their bodies for
money or entertainment. You don't want anyone to judge anyone else, but you
judge people like me as prudes because we believe this behavior objectifies
women. Why else require a waitress to wear a bikini or female FF contestant to
wear a 2 piece suits? Carmen had to fight to wear something she was comfortable
in. Why not argue against THAT breach of personal freedom? It is very telling
that the vast majority of supporters for women as entertainment in this comment
thread are men. Not surprising, actually, but still sad. It's an opinion,
Marc. And opinions may sound judgmental to you, but I still have the freedom to
express mine: This world would be a better place if women didn't feel they
had to use their bodies to get money.
Is there still a bikini cuts? If so, please let me know. My hair is a little
Carmen--you had to know going into this that your opinions would be hammered.
But you did it anyway. Good for you.All the
negative posters who find flaunting women, and men who are suckers, all so
praiseworthy apparently don't mind 'telling on themselves'......
Go Carmen!!!! I agree "Modest is Hottest!!!" I, for one, as a women,
feel much more comfortable when I'm in clothes that offer decent coverage
(I don't wear burquas btw), and I don't have to worry about a slip
here, or a wrong move there exposing too much.
Stripper lays out $3,345 in cash to justify her jobGoogle it for the
story! There is NOTHING wrong with being a stripper or a Hooters girl.
"Well behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
Well, for what it's worth I'm a guy. Just thought I'd get that
part up front. As to the women who work in these places feeling good about what
they do, I don't know if they do or not. I do know that they are able to
make good money, and for some of them this is one of the few jobs they can get.
They might be college students trying not to graduate with student loans that
look like the national debt of a third world country. Or they might be single
mom's trying desperately to take care of a family. I'm glad your
parents raised you the way they did, but I'm also glad that we live in a
society that does not force women to cover head to toe like in some countries I
could name. As to the men who "can't control their cravings"
I'm sure these restaurants have a few males on the staff also. Likely some
very large, intimidating males. In my day we called them bouncers, because when
they threw your sorry butt out on the sidewalk, you bounced. Sometimes twice.
Allyson, I reread my post. I don't believe I said that you were saying that
the government should do something about bikinis. But, see, that's not my
issue with what people are saying. My issue is that people think they themselves
have a right to tell women what to do. They think they have a right to judge a
woman based solely on the clothes she wears. Or to shame them. And you have seen
that in this thread. Someone called them insecure or not having a brain. Imagine
that, based only on her clothing choice. Talk about objectifying women. That's what I have an issue with. You have many here saying how a
woman should dress. That's what I have an issue with. Really, its none if
your business, or anyone else's what a woman chooses to do. Somehow we have it in our heads that we get to tell women what to do. We
don't. It's not right when Islamic countries do it. It's not
right when we do it. Even if it has no weight of law. It is none of your
Mark, As another commentor remarked, no one (including myself) is
asking for government action to mandate what women can and cannot wear. We are
simply voicing our opinion that this world would be a much better place if
people used their freedoms to show respect for each other. And for some of us,
that means not treating a woman's body as a sex object.
I have never liked the "modest is hottest" thing. I know what it is
trying to convey, and if that helps a girl want to be modest, great. What I
don't like about it, however, is that it still makes women an object. It
is implying that the main reason to dress modestly is to please men. In
reality, being modest should bring internal joy from knowing that you are
growing closer to God because of righteous choices. It should not serve as just
another way to attract guys (albeit a more classy variety than those attracted
to immodesty). Anyway, rant over. Thanks for the relevant article.
The irony for me here is that, all things being equal, I (and I believe most
men) find fully clad women way more desirable than scantily clad women. Take
the same group of young waitresses that work at Hooters, dress them up (in nice
Sunday dresses) and send them to a church, and the men at that church will be
happier than they would be at a Hooters. This is because the imagination is way
better than reality.
Carmen,Thank you for standing up for good women everywhere. As a
married man who wants to be virtuous, it is very annoying to be exposed to
immodestly dressed women. I greatly respect women who respect their bodies and
dress appropriately, and wonder why some women want to send the message to the
world that they don't respect their own bodies. I agree that modesty in
dress is more beautiful and appealing than a woman who disrespects herself and
dresses immodestly. A woman will always attract the kind of man she is
advertizing for by the way she dresses. Thanks agasin for your courage to write
the truth.Larry from Clovis
I've always wondered why it's immodest for a woman to show her stomach
when swimming/at the beach, but not immodest when a man does the same thing.
Can anybody answer this for me?
Tandrews,,, Believing in fairy tales is not a good thing,,,
Thank you for the article. I agree. It is sad to see what society accepts as
OK. Funny that with all of the progress in the women's rights area, women
and men (generally) both seem to continue to treat women as objects. We see
this time and time again in the movie industry, which fancies itself as a
progressive industry. How many times do we hear about some new actress who had
her career jumpstarted by appearing nude in some magazine, thus getting
"noticed" and now perceived as a legitimate actress. So sad. Others
are bullied by a director that if they do not do whatever inappropriate scene,
she would "never work again in this town," etc. Others make some good
movies and then feel compelled to take off their clothes to shed the "good
girl" image that could hurt their career. This is not an
industry problem, however. It is a problem with individual choices. If each
actress and director refused to lower their standards, and if the movie-going
(and restaraunt-going) public refused to partake of the trash that is out there,
then there would be no pressure and no market for this sort or thing.
"should have more respect for women as human beings and not as sex
objects--especially in a free society"Allyson, it is precisely
because we live in a free society that people get to determine, on their own,
how they should dress. I don't imagine you see any bikinis in North Korea,
or in fundamentalist Islamic countries. It is precisely because if our freedoms
that we can choose. Also, I have total respect for women, in fact, I have so
much respect for them that I believe I have no business, whatsoever, telling
them what they can or can't do. They are not my play things, I don't
get to dress them. And burkahs are very pertinent to the conversation, not the
clothing itself, particularly, but the mindset behind them. The idea that
someone has the right to tell a woman what she HAS to do is the issue. Tandrews, thank goodness I don't share your religious believes, and as
such your argument carries absolutely no weight with me. Richards,
thanks for sharing who you have disdain for. But guess what? I don't care.
Mainstream ideas about our bodies have changed. The message taught is that our
bodies are meant to be flaunted, we want to look & feel sexy, wearing
immodest clothing says & shows we love ourselves, our bodies, & are
confident.No longer is immodesty shunned as a sign of sinful person,
but it is celebrated & encouraged as a sign of self-worth, confidence, &
beauty.Satan has done his job well. He has taken the teachings of
Jesus Christ & made them seem "bad, irrelevant, old-fashion,
restricting."If you believe in God & Jesus Christ, keep
their commandments. Jesus taught that our bodies are sacred; are created by God
for the purpose of procreation & expression love between a husband &
wife; aren't to be adorned in apparel to attract attention. He also taught
that the ways of the world are not his ways; don't look for your worth from
the world, but from God.Immodesty can lead to sins of pride,
jealousy, coveting, and adultery. Keep the commandments of God and
you will be blessed
These comments show much about the commenters. It tells us what status they
give women. It tells us how much they disrespect women. It tells us that they
consider women to be objects for their viewing pleasure.I have
nothing but disdain for any man who disrespect women, who leers at them, who
uses them for his personal gratification.I have nothing but disdain
for any person, man or woman, who exploits women to gain financially.I have nothing but disdain for men to frequent those places of business.When society loses respect for women, it becomes a society full of
diseased people who see nothing wrong with using others for pleasure.
Just returned from the gym and since I read this article first I checked out the
outfits. Some women dressed head to toe, some in modest work outfits but plenty
were in sports bras and short shorts and they weren't paid to be there.
Point is people dress how they want to be seen
@airnautYes, you are confused. Are people suggesting that the
government outlaw these types of restaurants? Or are they voicing their opinion
that they are a bad idea? Therein lies a great distinction.In a
free market system, people are still free to voice their opinions. In fact, it
is a great driver of what makes a free market system successful. The time when
you left a job when you disagreed with a practice is a great example of how it
Well done Carmen. You're right on. Don't listen to the criticisms from
those who on one hand try to make it appear as if this is a non issue but then
fall all over themselves defending it. If it truly makes no difference either
way, then cover up! It's pretty simple. No one is saying people don't
have a legal right to wear a bikini as a work outfit - it's just a bad idea
on many levels. The comedian Ron White said it best, "I had the right to
remain silent, I just didn't have the ability".
My wife and I stopped at a Hooters for lunch while on vacation. (She suggested
it, figuring I might enjoy it.) The waitresses were attractive, friendly
without being inappropriately flirty, and the outfits they wore were more modest
than much of what we see on the streets on a summer day in just about any major
city in the US.
Brahmabull: - It's not that big a deal.Only if you have become
desensitized. When modesty and decorum become rare, society suffers. Casual
attitudes about modesty are a step in the direction of pornography and
debauchery, which destroy families and weaken society.
What? Someone just figured out sex sells? Other then that, I'm
wondering who gave anyone the right to tell women what they can wear, or to
judge them for that choice. It is none of your business if a woman wears a
bikini, or for that matter if she chooses not to wear a bikini. The lady who
wrote this article decided not to wear a bikini, and good for her. But other
women choose to wear bikinis, for whatever reason, and good for them. Ain't freedom grand? John, can you provide any proof for your
claim that, "Sexual assaults, prostitution, and drug use all increase
exponentially" in the vicinity of a Hooters? Let me tell you
what I think is exploitation of woman: woman working minimum wage jobs with no
health insurance, no paid vacation, no pension plans, no sick leave. That's
exploitation. By the way, most people don't see wearing a
bikini an immoral act. Sorry if some of you don't understand yet, but your
idea of morals doesn't get to dictate to me what my idea of morals is. Ain't freedom wonderful!
I'm confused....Conservatives are for Free Enterprise, Free
Markets and less restrictions.If there is a market for this, then let the
market decide.If you don't like it, leave.Now it's
something else?I've worked many jobs that I didn't agree
with how things were being handled. I left one job once because management
was forcing me do something I knew to be completely Un-ethical.But
business was business in their minds.Rather than compromise my morals and
ethics, I quit.Too bad Utah doesn't have Unions to stick up for
what's wrong with letting the free market determine our fashion and jobs?
If people don't want to wear bikinis they don't have to buy them. If
enough people don't buy them then the fashion industry will have to adjust.
If you don't want to work in or serve in a place which requires certain
types of clothing then those companies will be forced to adjust.Let
the free market work! What repubs seem to want is government intervention! More
nanny government? No thanks!
Funny how there is never any mention on how women ONLY look at man's
wallet,, Where is the feminist outrage there??
I always feel bad for men when they have their shirts off. Women are always
googling at their bodies. I feel bad for these men that want their shirts off.
It is sad of the degrading that they are doing for men as a whole. This is how
this article sounds to me. This is just silly. Women should be
able to wear what they want to wear with no judgment. (this includes burqas,
Gs, and all the way to the skimpy bikini)
I'm glad there is still moral outrage over non-issues.
@Ranch: I hardly think Carmen is suggesting women should be forced to wear
burkas. This post is not about individual freedom, but about how both women and
men should have more respect for women as human beings and not as sex
objects--especially in a free society, I might add. There are endless clothing
options between a bikini and a burka. Don't use hyperbole to confuse the
point she is making.
I agree with Carmen completely, but having known the Rasmussen's for many
years I think Carmen should be reminded that very few if any of the women in the
places she refereed to grew up with all the advantages she has had.
At work it is easy to spot which women are married and which ones are not by how
they dress and I work in an office building. Women dress on how they want to be
viewed by men and other women and once married they don't care as much.
@Joe BlowWelcome to the world of legalese, my friend. Nowhere in
the contract did it say that the contestant agreed to wear a bikini. The
contract verbiage stated "two-piece bathing suit - NO EXCEPTIONS" and
Carmen wore (1) a thick, zip up swim shirt that covered her entire torso and (2)
long shorts that reached her knees. Traditional counting methods would suggest
that her bathing suit consisted of two pieces.For the next stunt,
she wore (1) a one-piece bathing suit and (2) shorts. Again, her bathing suit
consisted of two pieces.My guess is that she worked out the details
of her two-piece bathing suit prior to signing the contract, but it
wouldn't have mattered anyway as she was clearly not in breach of the
Wearing long dresses and hair in a bun or burkas doesn't degrade a woman
(tells her she's nothing but the property of a man)?Women, like
men, should be able to have the freedom to do and wear what they desire.
"Only in Utah" do you get the endless flow of
anti-Mormon/morality/values comments about how prudish we are "here." I
moved here from L.A. A few years ago, and while, yes, bikinis and immodest
clothing were everywhere, there were also many people of all faiths who felt the
same as the "prudish" Mormons and were oh, so glad when we had the guts
to actually say and do something about it. (Like the other woman on Fear Factor
with Carmen.) To all the men out there essentially telling Carmen to "get
real", I would suggest you do the same. Trying to justify your desire to
view women as sex objects with the "jeez, everybody's doing it but you
prudes" line is so third grade.
Carmen. We are so proud of you for who you are and what you represent. I
guess you can't take all the credit--- it surely I always want to write
Shirley must be directed to your parents, teachers. Those who who there to
guide you along life's treacherous highway.
@Arizona1"What will it take for men to respect a woman for who she is
rather than for how much skin she can show?"There's also
the reverse issue of that too. Is a woman being disrespected for who they are
because they aren't conforming with what someone believes is acceptable
amounts of skin being covered? An extreme form of this is of course Saudi
Arabia. Now I'm not saying that women should definitely wear
clothes that cover less skin. I'm saying that a woman deserves respect
regardless of her choice in swimsuit.
@JSB"I'd rather respect a woman for her brains than for her
partially clad body. But, I guess some women are so insecure or have so little
brain, that the only thing they have to attract attention is a body."Here's the problem... you're putting blame on a woman for an
issue that involves the men. In fact, you're the one making a judgment
about a woman's brain based on what she is wearing.
"And I believe every woman is worth more than a plate of hot wings."Me too... although I've known some who weren't worth two
Shame on the left-wing extremists who have attacked Rasmussen for her stand
against immorality. Study after study has confirmed that these types of
businesses which exploit scantily-clad women increase the overall crime rate in
the surrounding area. Sexual assaults, prostitution, and drug use all increase
exponentially. No community which cares about the welfare of its citizens would
ever allow any such business into its midst.
@JoeBlow--maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what
you're seeing in the article. For all we know, the exception was granted
after she told the producers she couldn't agree to the contract. The
producers clearly accepted her innovation on the two-piece swimming suit, so
what are you grousing about? Much ado about nothing.
Hooters has good wings.
Ahhhh, that was refreshing! I'm a little surprised at some of the posts.
I wouldn't want my daughter working in a place like these businesses, and
would be embarrassed if she or my mom knew if I went to one. I really don'
think I'm a prude. Even though its accepted now days, it still
doesn't make it right and you can never convince me that your a better
person for going. My sons might want to go but they or their Dad has no
Well written, Carmen. I'm always surprised to see some of the comments that
pop up on Deseret News in response to an article. In this case, I think some of
the comments that cheapen a woman's worth to how much skin she can show
prove Carmen's point. What will it take for men to respect a woman for who
she is rather than for how much skin she can show?
"guess you didn't read the sentence where Carmen noted they made an
exception for her. "People don't (or shouldn't) sign a
contract and then hope for an exception. The way it is written, the contract
was signed and later the exception was granted.
It's really just a byproduct of capitalism. There's no perfect system,
but capitalism seems to have a pretty good net result, so we're left with
some seedy operations here and there.
@JoeBlow--guess you didn't read the sentence where Carmen noted they made
an exception for her. I'm not a woman, so I have no idea why
some dress scantily or how they feel about men gawking at them. There is a real
incongruence in our society. Women want to be respected for their minds and real
contributions to society, yet they submit to a culture that increasingly
exploits them as sex objects. Stars compete for the deepest decolletage on the
red carpet.I admire women such as Carmen and others in the
entertainment business who fight the "requirement" to exploit their
bodies for the sake of ratings. Society has become increasingly accepting of
more and more bare flesh, a continuum that results in a thriving porn industry.
I get that for those who don't believe in moral absolutes that is no big
deal, and that for them exploiting women's bodies for porn is OK, and a
"victimless" crime. If you really believe that, search for some of the
chilling documentaries recounting the human cost of women trapped in that
industry. And to the men who "hire" those women to perform for them: for
Rather than speculate and guess, you might have interviewed some of the
employees and customers. You might have been surprised, or you might have found
exactly what you were expecting.
One of the best things about football season? Crowd shots @ UCLA,
Fla St, Auburn, Az St, etc... home football games.
Free enterprise. Customers don't have to patronize, employees don't
have to work there.
Carmen, I'm not surprised that you are getting some mocking comments but
you are right. I'd rather respect a woman for her brains than for her
partially clad body. But, I guess some women are so insecure or have so little
brain, that the only thing they have to attract attention is a body. How
Challenging these sorts of things is great. Thank you.
Wow, hope your ankles are covered when you go outside. Wouldn't want you to
be degraded. And what, exactly, is degrading for men about women wearing
bikinis? As far as male customers OK with being treated like animals who
can't control their cravings, um, works for me.
Funny Utah article. Sitting at the beach in Santa Monica or any beach town and
you're surrounded by bikinis. Halter tops to college classes in Hawaii. And
then there's the gym! Come on Carmen...get real. Would I pay more to go to
Bikini Cuts? Nope. What about Hooters? The food wasn't that great and the
shorts and nylons uniform was uninteresting. Back in the day the Playboy Club
was a good place for a business lunch and I found myself inside one (Century
City, following the client's lead) and it turned out to be a good lunch.
The bunnies were covering more skin than the girls at the beach 6 miles to the
west and it was a complete non-issue. Guys who are going to leer are going to
leer in church and everywhere else. I doubt many women say to themselves
"I've got to take this job as a __________" (waitress, stripper,
ring girl, fitness model, etc) with a concern about being leered at. If it
bothers you, don't do it.
If you have ever been outside Utah, you would know that many women now days
dress with less and less clothes. Beaches in Florida are full of women in skimpy
bikinis. It is not that big of a deal. Men like to look, women like to be looked
at. It is human nature. If they don't like their line of work, I am sure
another restaurant would hire them...
Carmen,You had to go in thinking that you would either 1) defy your
contract or 2) wear a bikini Why on earth would you sign a contract
requiring you to do something that you were so strongly against? Wouldn't
the prudent thing be to politely decline?