I'm surprised to read so many of these posts are about LDS beliefs, sexual
behavior and not about the Boy Scouts of America. I was encourage to read the
wise position that the LDS and Catholic church have in place against
discrimination against gay persons. From reading some of these posts, some quite
reactionary and hateful, they have more work to do to get the word out.
Discriminating against homosexual persons is against Roman Catholic Canon Law as
well LDS church teaching. The Constitution is clear about this. Period! Issues
surrounding sexual behavior and marriage for both heterosexual and homosexual
persons is a separate issue, which it seems those who identify themselves as
hetero, are failing miserably. This was a wise step that will help the BSA
appeal to a younger generation, many of whom, are not homophobic and don't
find this an issue.
Go 273 river miles; Scouting is not the Young Mens program. They are 2 totally
To those of you who disapprove of this move and no longer have any desire to be
associated with the Scouting program and wish to leave or disassociate
yourselves - please do so quickly - so that Scouting may once again become what
is should have been all along and what I believe - Lord Baden-Powell intended it
to be (and already is in many other countries).
If you are LDS and you think being gay is a choice you are diametrically opposed
to the recent pronouncement of the First Presidency on the website
mormonsandgays.org. It's not a choice. Gay boys are painfully aware at 12
years old that they are attracted boys, not girls and that they are different.
They all struggle with it and a very large number give up the fight and kill
themselves. Scouting is the Young Mens program of the church, all gay young man
are ostracized from the YM program, by policy or by choice, because of this
exclusionary policy. There is no gay agenda; -- other wanting to be treated with
the same respect and fairness that society offers everyone else. There are a
lot of people with opinions given to them by someone else; a couple of years
ago, I was one of them. I believe being gay in Utah is the hardest thing any
young man or woman could suffer. I believe that parents who throw their gay
children out in their greatest hour of need are going to have a real problem
when/if they stand before God someday.
@but seriously --"Gay urges can be put down with effort and
counseling, to do other wise is a sign of w\moral weakness."And
of course, you know better than all the medical and psychological professionals
who disagree with you. Could you please let us know how many
patients you have personally treated? Or tell us all the peer-reviewed
scientific papers you have written on the subject? Or let us know which
professional medical and psychological societies share your view? Or even give
us any evidence at all to support your claim? I'd appreciate
No matter which side you are on this was a total cop out by the BSA. They ask
the scouts to stand up straight and stick to their principles and yet they cave
into political pressure. My years of being a century club member is over, and
no this is not to punish young men who are gay. It is more about donating to an
organization with no backbone.For all those who say that
homosexuality is not a choice you are dead wrong. It is a choice just like
straight men also have a choice. Gay urges can be put down with effort and
counseling, to do other wise is a sign of w\moral weakness.
re:Say No to BOAs the LDS church reaches the 15 million mark
membership wise and most likely in 10 years the 20 million mark or more it finds
itself having a more and more diverse membership. Instead of being mostly Utah
Mormons with pretty much the standard upbringing from birth in the Church it now
has an ever growing membership of converts - converts who have come from all
parts of life in all parts of the world. Many converts have experienced a far
different world compared to those of us brought up here in Utah and many have
had to experience an "Alma the Younger" type conversion in their lives.
They have lived and seen the other side of the fence so to speak so it behooves
all of us to welcome those new converts and expect some tattoos and ear
piercings and other life styles lived in their per-baptismal years. All of these
people are welcome and loved. Recall the Lord himself said that he was sent to
the "sick among us" and not for the well. The Lord was found often times
in the company of the worst in the city...on purpose.
re:HS FanThere are always some at age 12 or 13 who can be identified
as having same gender attraction and your son is part of a very small minority
at that age - an age where most boys are barely scratching the surface of
understanding their sexuality. Perhaps a 16 or 17 year old would be more able to
understand and identify those same gender feelings but I have been involved with
thousands of boys via scouting and have never come across a 12 or 13 year old
with openly gay feelings. I am not saying a 12 or 13 year old can't have
those feelings - your son obviously did - I am just saying it is very rare at
that age. The real point I was making was I support all boys regardless and want
none to feel rejected. I think this move by BSA was the right one.
Sad day when people can't decided between right, and wrong.
The church already says that members who consider themselves to be homosexual
but who do not act on their homosexual inclinations can be members of the church
in good standing, even up to holding a temple recommend. So why would the
church have a problem retaining their partnership with the Boy Scouts after this
policy change? If anything, it gets these boys more involved, and it gets them
greater exposure to an LDS environment, and therefore, gives them greater
strength and resolve to live the gospel. This sounds like a win.
@RanchHand: You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want.
Philippine Bonita: The BSA is not a faith based organization.
Heres to the church pulling its support if this passes and starting it's
own scouting program.
The problem is this policy would basically suggest "okay here's your
Eagle Scout, now get out, you aren't welcome anymore".
As a hetero ScoutMaster / leader of several yeras I am deeply conflicted by
this.Scouting has been a great activity for numerous young boys in
my neighborhood. Even my own sons have enjoyed being in scouts. I enjoy teaching
the lessons from the Scout manual and having some fun and safe outdoor
experiences.Sex or sexual preference has never been a part of any
lesson in scouting that I have taught or been taught. I have learned as much
from scouting as I have taught btw.The nearest to the topic of sex
that we get to is morality and personal safety. It will be difficult to mesh the
religious beliefs of LDS troops with this new policy.While I
don't personally see any issues with including gay boys in scouts, I have a
hard time seeing how a boy aged 8-11 can feel any sexuality towards anyone. Boys
that age should be curious about pocket knives, frogs, safe campfires and
smores. Not sexuality.If someone is pushing the open sexuality of
this age group something is wrong. Something perverse is being pushed onto a
group that doesn't want it.
I think this is probably the only reasonable solution, as it allows scouting to
reach out to those young men who have same sex attraction, without condoning a
young man's decision to act on those feelings. Although I do think a man
who has same-sex attraction, but who doesn't act on those feelings, could
still be a good scout leader, I don't think the scouting program is ready
or even able to try to make that distinction for scout leaders. I do think that
is the ideal criteria though, and is the one the LDS church currently uses, as
there are many people who do have same sex attraction, who don't act on it
and who don't dwell on it or parade it around like a badge of honor, who
are yet active and faithful LDS church members in every way. Some are even
married happily to a person of the opposite sex.
A quick note for those who say shame on those who don't agree on letting
gay youth and adults members into the BSA; remember there are many clubs,
organizations who cater to certain preferences so if your not happy with one
create one in the image of what you wish. Keep in mind that young men have
raging hormones and some have trouble with these urges so some youth will be
approached with requests for sex by homosexual peers. We can love all but not
inappropriate behavior. There will be some who will say< "Oh no,
there will be no young men asking to have sex with heterosexual young boys."
I tell you that growing up I was asked many times by a homosexual youth to
engage in inappropriate behavior on weekends. Was very hard to deal with.The BSA
is only trying to protect youth which is their # 1 priority.
@ wYo8So did you not know you were straight until you acted on those
As I see it, the LDS Church has the following choices and consequences if it
accepts a BSA ruling that gay boys can be accepted, but gay adult leaders
cannot:1) The Church may choose to adopt its own policy of
continuing to exclude, with the SCOTUS' legal backing of freedom of
association. This however will cause an issue when LDS troops join with non-LDS
troops at Scout Camps or Jamborees.2) The LDS Church may accept the
new policy, but will suffer a severe lack of male leaders willing to associate
with a group that now fosters a position that they disagree with on moral
grounds. Not only Scoutmasters, but all YM Presidencies and Advisers will have
to be allowed to resign their post without repercussion or denigration by local
leadership. I'm not saying all would, but the article indicates that in
Utah 70%+ would, and I believe that in much of the heartland the numbers would
be similar.3) Discontinue scouting as the mechanism for YM
activities. As few LDS troops run the program by the book anyway, which do you
think is likely?#3 would be easiest. Just re-route their FOS $$ to
a new program.
"As to the "sleep-over" questions: Isn't "two deep"
leadership (and that means two leaders in tandem patrolling outside tents while
the boys go to sleep) part of the solution? Camping is an important part of
scouting, leaders just need to make it safe."HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!I bet there aren't 1/2 of 1% of troops
that have this type of supervision. As soon as it's lights out, the
leaders are sawing logs, or playing cards, or sneaking off to sleep in their
truck, where it's warm......
@Denverite!"... The vast majority of Scout-age boys who think they are
gay are simply confused at their age and need all the acceptance they can
get...an openly gay leader...... can influence my son that homosexuality is
acceptable when it's not. Though it's a temptation.....acting on that
temptation is never acceptable--and I don't want my son spendig time with
men or women who clearly think it is."Notice that Denverite did
not say that gay members of society do not have value. Notice that he did not
say that he hates them or thinks they are pedophiles. He said he does not want
his on spending time with men or women who feel that acting on homosexual
feelings is acceptable.
@Really??? Can you clarify your post? If your friend took his life 20 years
ago How did you recently read a Facebook post by him while Facebook has only
been around for 9 years? I am not criticizing, just a little confused.I
am saddened that families sometimes react in un-Christian ways to the coming out
of gay family members and VERY sad to hear of situations like the one you
describe where the isolation is so complete and painful that someone would see
no other choice but to end their life.Could please clarify your post so
that I understand you better? Thanks.
@Tolstoy, sorry luv, the Boy Scouts of America IS a faith-based organization.
@John20000 wrote, " There is a huge, huge difference between performing
homosexual acts and feeling a sexual attraction towards the same gender. I am
adamantly opposed to the Boys Scouts embracing teenagers (or adults) who are
performing homosexual acts and are thinking there is nothing wrong with that. I
am adamantly in favor of the Boy Scouts embracing teenagers (and adults) who
feel a sexual attraction towards the same gender, but choose not to act on
one voteSalt Lake City, UT"This could end LDS church domination
of local troops. Excellent."While you are celebrating, remember
that what you call 'domination' is also called massive support. Also remember that there are many many boys who will not be
participating in scouts, if this change goes through. You want to
kick all those boys out? You are the one being discriminatory and exclusive.
I do not think that any sexually active scout should be allowed to continue on.
I do not want my kids associating with kids who now have one foot in adulthood
prematurely. If a kid wants to be a grown-up let them be and not a scout. Keep
the purity and decency in tact for those who choose the proper order of things.
Once again: the legal issue is the real can of worms here, folks! So-called gays
are using the courts, politics, and "human rights" issues to gain open
acceptance of their lifestyles. Those of you saying sexual orientation is nobody
else's business are absolutely correct! But they're using courts and
public opinion to make it our business!We'd be better off to
keep some things personal and quit worrying about banning boys. But the gays
won't let it be! Court cases will be a reality for years to come regardless
of what the BSA decides.Some boys bully, even to the extent of
threatening other boys' lives. Are we going to ban them too? As
to the "sleep-over" questions: Isn't "two deep" leadership
(and that means two leaders in tandem patrolling outside tents while the boys go
to sleep) part of the solution? Camping is an important part of scouting,
leaders just need to make it safe.
What surprises me in all of this is how many of YOU simply deny the fact that
many of your sons, brothers, fathers and associates are gay. 11 to 15% of all
men and women are. Growing up in the Utah culture makes it extremely difficult
to "come out" so they don't. Don't put your heads in the sand
and play like this isn't so. It's time for the Church and it's
members to stop this silly discrimination and accept people for who they are,
not for who they expect them to be.
@Fitz"If the BSA concedes to this pressure, like so many other
private organizations have over the years, then it is a loss to everyone that
believes one has a right to choose who one desires to associate with."This is why, I can easily a time in which churches will not only be
forced to marry same-sex couples, but forced to abandon any "politically
incorrect" practices, ceremonies or doctrines which they may have.Ironic that those who claim to be the strongest defenders of the separation of
church and state are among those working hardest to butt into churches,
demanding they conform to their own ideas and agendas.
The LDS Church does not need the Boy Scouts. Within a few months, we could build
our own organization that does the same things -- and probably for cheaper. If
we want an established organization with a proven track record, there's
always DeMolay.The issue isn't the "orientation,"
it's the activity. I had a gay scout master. He and his gay buddies made
the only two campouts I went on pure hell. I would have never known if they kept
it to themselves.But you know what? We also don't let
"practicing" alcoholics be scout masters or youth leaders. But an
alcoholic who is clean and sober has no problems being given that kind of
The BSA is an awesome organization and has been for many years. The
"agenda" is to destroy the BSA by driving out the religious support. I
think the churches should fight tooth and nail to save it and it's
standards and not jump ship unless it is absolutely beyond saving.
Agree with patriot, How does a 12 year old know if he is gay or not until he
acts upon any feeling or thoughts he has towards sex. If I think about pot and
want to get high smoking it. Am I a pothead before I actually start smoking it.
SCOTUS has handed down a decision that clearly stated that BSA is a private
organization and can set the rules about who can and can not join. This is
about having an organization where you associate with people you want to
associate with and not about an association that, by monetary and political
pressure, force you to associate with someone you would not care to associate
with. BSA is under these great pressure right now to change the long standing
rules on membership. If the BSA concedes to this pressure, like so many other
private organizations have over the years, then it is a loss to everyone that
believes one has a right to choose who one desires to associate with.
Many parents won't have their child camping with a gay boy. Don't want
to expose their son to the influence. It's they're choice.Gays should start their own scouting program with like minded scout leaders.
Tolstoy: Religion is in scouting and all the boys have to receive a religious
merit badge to get their eagle award howsever, if can be the reliong of their
MapleDon: All boys deserve to be part of scouting
I'm so so tired of this political correct garbage being shoved down my
throat. If gay want to be in an organization that does scout stuff then start
one. If they want "benefits" that married couples get then start a
group that can pool their resources and give those benefits they seek. Tax
"benefits"....good luck....we are already over taxed. I don't see
the bullying, I don't believe there is any more bias against your than
there is for any other minority group. I do how ever feel resentment because
you seek special treatment when you don't deserve it any more than I do.
Miss Piggie says:"The problem is... gay boys think their sexual
urgings are quite normal and there's nothing wrong with them at the Boy
Scout age."---Quite frankly, they're correct.
There's nothing wrong with them.@jmtcbarby;And I
believe that your leaders are not speaking for God, but from their own
biases.@Mom Johnson;Once again, may I please have a copy
of the "gay agenda"?@LetsDebate;You make some
good points, however, I'll point out once again that "morally
straight" does NOT mean "heterosexual", it means, in the case of the
boys, celibate, upright, etc.@suzyk#1;"It's
okay to be immoral... and discriminate against others." How well does that
fit into the scout oath?@John C. C.;Marriage helps
reduce promiscuity. Whodathunkit.
When I was this age, a friend of mine was "befriended" by an older boy
who was gay. My friend told me that it was really cool and we should try it
which I wasn't interested in. I doubt he would be gay now if that older
kid (17, 18 or older) hadn't been there. Till then we talked about and
were excited about girls. I didn't even know what Gay/Homosexual was, but
I soon figured out I didn't have anything in common with him anymore.Some kids have those tendencies, but I have seen several that would not
have occurred without an older person "converting" the kid.I
don't think a kid who is not openly gay is going to be banned now. I think
a kid who is sexually active should not be in scouting under these rules. The
Gay and Lesbian community activists are promoting sexual activity.We
have a few board members who got on the BSA board only to push an agenda. Now
that it has been pushed, the box is open and the mess is complete. Either way
it goes now the BSA will likely not last many more years.
Homosexuality is, and always has been, a form of sexual perversion. It has been
declared to be a sin of immense moral magnitude by both ancient and modern
prophets. Allowing openly homosexual boys into the Scouting program sends a
message that such a lifestyle is an acceptable alternative to the one which
patterned by our Creator. Attitudes are contagious. Should the BSA allow
openly homosexual boys into their their midst, neither I nor my sons will be
there to see how it turns out.
The biggest misunderstanding here still seems to be the issue of attraction vs
action. Adults of all ages with same-gender attraction have always been welcome
in the Church of Jesus Christ as well as in the Boy Scouts of Americas.
It's how individuals deal with their attraction that matters. Promiscuity
is grounds for losing membership, regardless of the genders involved. Anyone
who thinks it is acceptable for youth to engage in sexual acts as a normal part
of growing up is wrong. Morally straight individuals wait for marriage.We value all people and encourage them to return to a "morally
straight" life style if they stray, even if some acts may disqualify them
for some privileges. That's not the same as hate, or even rejection. It
shows that we want the best and expect the best.The LDS Church is
currently considering its response to the proposed change. It has prominent
leaders in the BSA body that votes on policy changes.My response
will depend on how BSA defines "open." Attraction or action?
The Church's official statement on being non-discriminative will make it
hard for them to say you can't participate if you have same-gender
attraction. If a 14-year-old boy tells his bishop that he is struggling with
same gender attraction, will he "dis-enroll" him from scouts? I
don't see that happening. However, the church gave a warning to parents
regarding "sleep overs". The Boy Scouts do sleep overs. Adult leaders,
for obvious reasons, are not allowed to stay in the same tents as the youth so
they can't chaperone the boys. So, if a same-gender struggling scout
decides to "experiment" with another scout on a scouting "sleep
over", it creates a potential problem for the church. This is a difficult
issue. I think it is time for the church to leave the BSA, stop having scout
"sleep overs" and focus on the Duty to God award.
The acts of gays are wrong, and cannot be justified. This posted by
another is worth re-posting:"On my honor, I will do my bestTo do my duty to God and my Country and to obey the Scout Law;To help
other people at all times;To keep myself physically strong, mentally
awake, and morally straight. "This decision has no honor.It ignores one's duty to God.It does not help other people.It
is morally contorted.Bye bye Boy Scouts
I, too believe the almight dollar was a big part of caving in to the homosexual
issue. This behavior can be controlled but now the Boy Scouts of America are
actually saying, "it's okay if you are immoral and have desires and
feelings toward the same sex" we'll make it possible for you to
continue being a homsexual and we won't have to deal with the pressure we
have been experiencing. Who says there won't be trouble with these boys who
have chosen to be "gay" on outings - it only takes one time to
dramatically affect and deeply hurt an innocent and wholesome young boy. I do
not believe this is right and I will not support their decision with donations.
All I can do is shake my head in disappointment.
Scout camp is not about just 12 and thirteen year old boys. I have three young
relatives who are going who are 16 and 17 years old. I would never send my son
to camp to share a tent with a young woman. It would be entirely inappropriate
no matter how well supervised the activity. Why would I send him to share a tent
with a young man who has the same kind of feelings toward him as the young woman
would have? I would not. It would also be entirely inappropriate. Sometimes
truth and right have to trump seeming kindness.
I don't think there are any scouting activities that involve group showers
or sleeping in shared bedding. What, exactly is the danger of a same-sex
attracted scout on a campout, in a group tent, in his own private sleeping bag?
Is homosexuality contagious during the sleeping portion of the campout? What do
some of you think is going to happen?Also, there's no way a
scout leader, gay or not, would ever be in a situation to abuse a scout, unless
2-deep leader policies and 1-on-1 prohibitions are violated. But, the bigger
problem with having gay leaders, even committed monogomous ones, is the
implication that homosexuality is a morally equivalent or acceptable sexual
choice, compatible with the "morally straight" clause of the oath.
It's highly inappropriate to impose acceptance of gay scout leaders on a
private organization, especially those chartered by religious bodies. But the scouts themselves are merely boys trying to figure out a lot about
themselves. I'm not aware of any merit badges, camping workshops, or any
other type of activity that focuses on sexuality at all, of any kind. It's
not part of the program. Why are we worried about it?
Hello People!!! Don't you recognize that the "agenda" of the
homosexual society is to force it's way into society hoping for
acceptance??? For those of you who were scouts before the
"ban", how many of you even knew of fellow scouts struggling with their
sexual identity. It was NOT an issue to even be discussed. Boys were expected to
be showing their duty to God, Country and to help people. Become physically
strong, mentally awake and morally straight.It was because of the
homosexual's wanting to be "accepted" and forcing their sexuality
on others (i.e. leaders who took advantage of their position, etc.) That this
"ban" began. They (the homosexuals) the homosexuals did it to
themselves. They created the environment that caused the BAN. Now they want the
BSA to accept their feelings and their behaviors once again. Even
those boys who were struggling with a huge heterosexual attraction were expected
to not make it an issue and focus on the great things that scouting had to
offer. Why, Why, Why does anyone need to know the sexuality of
another???? What is the purpose??? It's an agenda.
I am 100% sure that our Prophet of today leads our church under the direct
counsel of God the Father himself. Clearly this is a decision that isn't
going to please all. I for one, will follow whatever counsel he gives us, even
if it doesn't go along with "my" book of opinions. We need to have
faith in those we sustain.
I remember a few years ago when state legislatures across the country fought
tooth and nail to keep public schools from having "Gay/Straight
Alliance" clubs. Today most schools have such organizations and Gays are
open about their sexual orientation. Much to the surprise of the older
generation, the sky did not fall, and everyone did not suddenly decide to become
gay. Violence and persecution has dropped off. I no longer have Gay students
showing up to my office in pain literally wanting to kill themselves. I believe the same benefits will result from changing this policy and I would
urge its adoption.
Imagine the laughter that the Adversary is enjoying now
The problem is... gay boys think their sexual urgings are quite normal and
there's nothing wrong with them at the Boy Scout age.
Yes, continue to isolate yourself from every group until all you have left is
your little walled community. See how far that gets you.
The BSA appears to be virtually the only scouting organization in the world that
still discriminates against gay boys and men. There are no
restrictions against membership **or** leadership by gays in: Scouts Canada, the
Baden-Powell Service Association in the United States, Scouts Australia, or in
most European associations, including The Scout Association of the United
Kingdom, Ring deutscher Pfadfinderverbände of Germany (German Scout
Federation), and the Swedish Guide and Scout Association.Why are
some Americans so worried about this change, when equal treatment for all is
obviously already working for all these other scouting groups? Are American boys
somehow more vulnerable than all these other boys? Perhaps you think that
American boys would succumb to temptation, while all those other boys have the
strength to resist? Or are all those other boys somehow already ruined and
beyond hope of salvation? Seriously -- why would an open policy not
work here, when it already works everywhere else? What makes BSA unique?
" I don't want an openly gay leader fdr my son because he can influence
my son that homosexuality is acceptable when it's not."Lets
be really clear, it is not the role of any scout leader at any time to be
talking to any boy about sexual orientation, one way or another. There are no
cases where this is appropriate. Gay, Straight, what ever.This
subject doesn't belong in scouting.There are gay people in most
any aspect of life today.... and you would have no idea of their orientation.
And that is the way it should be. One's romantic leanings has no place in
many aspects of life - Scouts is no different.
This could end LDS church domination of local troops. Excellent.
Though I am strongly against lifting the ban at all, if anything is changed, I
could actually live with this. The vast majority of Scout-age boys who think
they are gay are simply confused at their age and need all the acceptance they
can get, especially with all the screwsd-up families in the world. People who think the ban on gay leaders is purely because a boy might become a
leader's personal targst miss one other important point: I don't want
an openly gay leader fdr my son because he can influence my son that
homosexuality is acceptable when it's not. Though it's a temptation
that some have to deal with (and I gratefully do not), acting on that temptation
is never acceptable--and I don't want my son spendig time with men or women
who clearly think it is.
My son was never asked if he were gay when he joined the BSA. He was asked to
agree to uphold the Scout Law and the Scout Oath. There's nothing mean
spirited or bigoted about the current policy of disallowing "openly gay"
adults and youth. Being "openly gay" is a political position. For the
sake of the young men struggling to overcome same-sex attraction, the BSA needs
to stand firm against the political position and continue to disallow openly gay
adults and youth while encouraging all young men to uphold the scout law and
oath - whatever their personal struggles.
Here's another issue that patriot alluded to when on camp outs or showering
do you single out this boy with these homosexual tendencies by telling them they
will have to wait until all the other boys are showered. Or you have to sleep in
your own tent? Or is the BSA going to make separate shower stalls for everyone
and everyone has to sleep alone in their own tents?
Yea for America.
The values of our society continue to erode daily. The Boy Scouts of America
need to stand firm on their principles and against amending them to suit
Having openly gay leaders is certainly something worthy of debate and concern.
Having gay scouts is a total non-issue. I don't know how scouting works
outside the LDS church, but the fact is every LDS male youth in America is
enrolled in scouting. The level of participation varies, of course, but anytime
they want to get a Merit Badge or go on a campout, they are all welcome. Most, if not all, young men who engage in the wrong things, whether
it's shoplifting, drugs, or sexual activity on either team, aren't
interested in participating in scouts. The Bishop might be talking to such kids
and counseling them, but I've never heard of a young man being kicked out
of the scouting program or prevented from participating in any scouting or youth
activity. Probably no scout could get an Eagle or advance if he is openly
sexually active, so who are we worried about here?We certainly have
scouts with same sex attraction already. If they're not acting out
sexually, what rule have they broken and how would you propose to identify them
and kick them out?
Most of the discussion is over the moral question, but how about the legal one?
Where is the protection going to be to a chartered organization--which could be
an LDS Ward, not the church in general, because the ward is the sponsoring
institution--if an adult leader, after registering, reveals he is homosexual and
sues to retain his scout membership and position? I don't see where the
National Council has clarified legal issues; they have only muddied the waters.
Tolerant (noun): A Tolerant is someone who, usually through patronizing
self-conceit, has interpreted Jesus Christ's gospel as acceptance of any
evil on the grounds that he/she is living in such a way as to advise Him on what
is acceptable or not.
For some boys, the difference in being a homosexual, or heterosexual, is a blink
of an eye in today's society. Choosing homosexual is not gods will. Why
have a homosexual leader in there midst then?
Few 12 year-olds who have gay leanings are even aware that they are gay. Few act
out sexually. I remember in my scout troop there was a boy who later turned out
to be gay. He was rather effeminate at 12 years old and didn't fit in well.
We endured his misfittedness with marginal tolerance, but resisted teasing him.
I think few 12 to 14 year-old gay boys will want to be scouts, and few parents
will force them to participate in scouting. To the extent that's true, this
is probably an idealogical issue, which will impose little practical change upon
95% of scout troops.I remain wary of any effect of this change on
older boy scouts around the age of 16 who may wish to continue participation,
particularly those who become instructors at summer camps. Perhaps those would
fall into the category of scout "leaders."
Someone asked "Should we accept adulterers, liars, thieves, etc"The answer is that yes, because you do already. If you go to church,
most every sunday there are those who are guilty of the above mentioned sins in
that congregation. For example, there are those who accept payment for services
in cash, and don't declare that income on their taxes. That at a minimum
is luting. It is a lie when they file their taxes, and it is a lie to the
question if they are honest in all their business dealings.Church,
and its programs, are not intended to be a sanctuary for the perfect, but a
place where all can go to get closer to the Lord, and work on becoming perfect.
I am pretty confident there are perfect people at church each sunday... some
just hide those things they are working on better than others.
I'm not going to send my teenage son into the woods for a week long camping
trip with a teenage girl for obvious reasons and I won't send him into the
woods with a gay young man. I didn't give to Friends of Scouting this year
because they were considering this and if it passes, I won't give to them
again. The goal of Scouting should not be to include as many boys as
possible or stay tax-exempt. If that's their goal then they are about money
and not about the families and youth that have supported them for years- many
times for generations.
The Scout Oath defines the qualities and attributes one aspires to live as a
scout. It is both personal and reflective. I will live it, honor it, and keep
@RanchHandIt's true that they aren't the same thing, but I
highly doubt any male pedophile who has molested little boys only likes little
boys and women. And you do know married to a woman and straight aren't the
same thing right? It could just be someone still hiding in the closet.
RanchHandHuntsville, UT@3grandslams;And the 2nd
was to love thy neighbor. Another was to "Judge not lest ye be judged".
Good luck at the judgement seat._______No problem. I
also like "Judges in Israel."How nice of you to selectively leave
out what is said before and after "Judge not lest ye be judged."
I'm embarrassed that so many of my fellow Latter-Day Saints are making such
ignorant statements. I think you can make the case with keeping the ban on gay
leaders because of the camping issues, but denying a young man who is otherwise
living a clean moral life the ability to participate is simply wrong.
Who's going to remind the young deacon each week that he's not invited
as the quorum discusses the week's scouting activities? It's sad that
Jesus would gladly welcome a gay boy to church, but many here wouldn't
welcome that same boy to scouts.
IS there a way that BSA could legally separate homosexual from straight boys in
overnighter situations? If the law states they can now, then it won't long
before that will be considered discrimination and will be banned.Next, should this admission change happen (kids accepted, but not adults), it
won't be long before the homosexual agenda will make certain that
won't be allowed either. Then, since homosexual behavior will be classified
as being morally straight, it will have to taught as acceptable behavior in the
scout handbook. Folks, what used to considered illegal and immoral,
is now neither in the eyes of power brokers. For the BSA to cave now will mean
one of the last bastions of moral courage will be gone, replaced with
"tolerance".And, should this thing regress as the homosexual
agenda would like, your kindergartners in public schools will be taught that
having two "moms" is acceptable. Anything short of that will be
Irrespective of how one feels about this, the application is simply not to the
12 year old boys often mentioned in the comments.In its more
advanced groups, Scouting includes YM up to age 18. Yes, many leave scouting by
that age. But not all. Analysis should be made in that light.
@The Reader;Why not just stop judging and let god deal with it?@MapleDon;And I refuse to give to the boy scouts because of
their bigotry. ("morally staight" doesn't mean
"heterosexual", it means upright. Gays can be just as upright and
"morally straight" as you - even sexually active gays).@sky2k1 & cjb & JSB;Important note: the majority of boys
who have been molested in the scouting program were molested by married
men. Pedophilia and homosexuality are NOT the same thing.@cjb;I do agree with your second comment 100%.@SportsChemistry;Money rules. Sad to say, but that's
reality.@patriot;I knew I was gay at 12. The closet was
the safest place to be back then.@Way of the WarriorCould you honestly look someone in the eye who you knew was a good person
(maybe even your own son) and tell them they are not good enough to be a scout
leader upon finding out their sexual orientation was homosexual?@3grandslams;And the 2nd was to love thy neighbor. Another was to
"Judge not lest ye be judged". Good luck at the judgement seat.
I hope-sincerely hope--that some of you who have posted on here will never have
to deal with the fear and pain that comes when confronting their family members
about their sexual orientation. It's something that is difficult enough as
it is, but to know how some of you feel about those who "deal with same-sex
attraction" could make that an extremely emotional issue that could lead to
depression and possibly even suicide.I read a Facebook post from a
high-school friend recently. He was sharing the pain his family experienced as a
result of how they mishandled his same sex attraction. They rejected him,
refused to accept him, and reminded him that he was a sinner. They thought it
was for his own good. Unfortunately, he lost hope and took his own life. That
was over twenty years ago, but his family still feels the pain today. They
realize now that all they were asked to do was love him. Their actions made him
feel like he wasn't loved.Isn't love the high law, anyway?
I don't see how the BSA could have done more to polarize this issue. All
they have managed to do is to offend both sides at once. Makes no sense! It
will be interesting and very telling to see how various scouting sponsors
respond. I have given a significant amount of property and money to scouting
and I find the BSA's decision to be very, very disturbing and will not be
donating anything further. Before anyone criticizes my position, you don't
know which way I feel, so hold your judgement...
What happens when polygamists, bigamists, polyandrists, or prostitutes claim
their constitutional rights? I'm sure all the gays will want to support
all these in their search for liberty under the constitution, right?those too,
Those things that are worth saying should be said over and sometimes over again
and again: therefore... I repost The RockFederal Way, WA"On my honor, I will do my bestTo do my duty to God and my Country
and to obey the Scout Law;To help other people at all times;To keep
myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. "This decision has no honor.It ignores one's duty to God.It
does not help other people.It is morally contorted. Bye bye
Boy Scouts as we have known it for over 100 years!
"How many homosexual 12 year old boys have you known? Zero for me and I
suspect that is true for most people"Because of the social
stigma of being gay, it takes maturity beyond the years of a 12 year old to not
only come to terms with his sexuality but gather the courage to confront the
prejudice of many people. It is easier for young gays to play along by
pretending to be something they are not. My son started liking boys at the same
time his friends starting liking girls. He hid all of this until he was 19.
Because of his courage, he confronted his situation at that age.BSA
is fighting for its life and this is how they are choosing to do it. Its fate
will actually be decided when the church decides how it will react to this
I must admit that I'm at a loss to understand how someone can claim
accepting homosexuality is a win for Christianity. Homosexuality is strongly
condemned in both the Old and New Testaments. Should we accept adulterers,
liars, thieves, etc. Since many people have a propensity to do these things, we
must accept them, right? The world we live in is simply unbelievable.
Kids struggling with there sexuality are just that, as they reach adulthood they
will have choices to make but as kids they need to be supported and given good
opportunities.Openly Gay scout leaders? Not the role models I want
taking an interest in my boysI think given the situation this is a
compromise I can support
Time for the Church to stand for something here and walk away from BSA.Duty to God, here we come.
The 3% tail wagging the 97% dog. Nobody is preventing the deviants from forming
their own youth program. Their only desire is to tear down anything that
threatens them. The survey results indicate that the change in the ban will
result in a 10 to 1 loss to gain ratio in membership. This whole deal is about
pressure the corporate sponsors on the national board are fealing from special
interest groups. In the end, it's the money not, honor. So, the BSA will
have money, no honor, and fewer members. It will be a dead organization within
ten years. And, the deviants won't lift a finger to save it.What is really making me crazy is that my perception is that the LDS church is
sitting on the fence with a damp finger held up in the air. I guess popularity
and acceptance really is more important that values.
@AlanSutton"But this new policy would say it's OK for a boy to
choose to engage in homosexual acts when he is still a boy, something that
Scouting should never encourage or condone."Uh... no. It's
saying that people who have same-sex attractions would be allowed. It's not
like current rules encourage hetersexual sex acts, it just allows those with
@allansutton I do not mean to be disrepectful but rather give you some
percpective of how your comment sounds to those of us that do not share your
beleifs so with that said. This "policy" is bad because it puts
religion into the Scout program. Boys of scouting age should not be encouraged
to decide whether they are religous or not. If they want to choose that
lifestyle when they come of age, in this country they may make that choice. But
this new policy would say it's OK for a boy to choose to engage in religous
acts when he is still a boy, something that Scouting should never encourage or
condone. @mapledonactually I think your comment actually
speaks very loudly of what kind of feelings and attitudes you are
"filled" with perhaps its not others you need worry about.
I guess basket waving will become more popular
MapleDonSpringville, UTCan a Buddhist, who does not believe in
Romans or Corinthians, be a scout?
It's not just the leaders I would be concerned about. I wouldn't want
my boys going camping with openly gay boys any more than I'd want them
going camping with girls.Beyond that, even if the organization
accepts openly gay boys, that doesn't mean the other boys will accept them,
and you're also potentially putting kids into temptation and then expecting
them not to act on it, which seems awfully dangerous.
patriot vetCedar City, UTOne of the commenters used the term
"PC"(Politically Correct).What our nation is moving toward
with the gay/homosexual liberation is "CC": Constitutionally Correct._________Our nation is moving in a direction on many fronts
that is incorrect. Especially by those that seek to change the Constitution
because they can't have their own way.
The many "let's just get along" comments that have been made are a
reflection of decades of conditioning our society to stand for nothing. Those
people claiming they are standing for something must not understand the history,
rules, oaths, or laws of scouting. Keeping oneself morally staight
still means something to a lot of us. To you, that's old-fashioned and
outdated.Many in our society have been conditioned to regard
morality as subjective and to label anyone standing for that pesky old Word of
God as hate filled. And those quoting scripture, give me a break. While
you're reading, look up Romans 1:26-29, 1 Corinthians 6:9, etc. This is sad. If this passes, scouting has lost its meaning. But this should be
expected in the grand efforts of the fundamental transformation of America.
This "policy" will is bad because it puts sexual matters into the Scout
program. Boys of scouting age should not be encouraged to decide whether they
are homosexuals or not. If they want to choose that lifestyle when they come of
age, in this country they may make that choice. But this new policy would say
it's OK for a boy to choose to engage in homosexual acts when he is still a
boy, something that Scouting should never encourage or condone.
One of the commenters used the term "PC"(Politically Correct).What our nation is moving toward with the gay/homosexual liberation is
"CC": Constitutionally Correct. As we've seen since 1787, various
groups (non-landowning white men, slave men, women, American Indians, blacks in
general, children have struggled, but eventually acquired consitutional rights
to be equal. It is now time for us to equalize, liberate , accept our fellow
citizens that are gay. Americans should not be afraid or penalized
by expressing their personal culture, ancestry, lifestyle.I am LDS
and active. I don't know of any gay people personally, although the
statistics say thet some of my friends or aquaintenances are gay. But, they,
like all the rest of us, live under the protection of the Constitution. It is
time they also receive the rights they have earned.
"On my honor, I will do my bestTo do my duty to God and my Country and
to obey the Scout Law;To help other people at all times;To keep
myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. "This decision has no honor.It ignores one's duty to God.It
does not help other people.It is morally contorted. Bye bye
Anytime you say sexual orientation, you have fallen into a trap. There is a
huge, huge difference between performing homosexual acts and feeling a sexual
attraction towards the same gender. I am adamantly opposed to the Boys Scouts
embracing teenagers (or adults) who are performing homosexual acts and are
thinking there is nothing wrong with that. I am adamantly in favor of the Boy
Scouts embracing teenagers (and adults) who feel a sexual attraction towards the
same gender, but choose not to act on it.
re 3grandslamsIowa City, IAI shouldn't skip the
Bible's condemnation of Homosexuality? I wasn't discussing the merits
or de-merits of homosexuality, so there was no need to include it. I was only
discussing what should be our proper reaction towards it.
re:cjbIf you're going to throw the bible around don't skip
its clear condemnation of adultery and homosexuality. Your
recommendation to read and apply the bible only works with people who have never
read it. Sexual immorality including lustful thoughts, adultery, fornication,
homosexuality etc. are all condemned and clearly define those behaviors as
candidates for repentance. Remember the 1st great commandment is to
love God, not to rewrite his Gospel.
PatriotWe all knew my 12 year old Mormon nephew was gay at this age. He
was loved and adored by his family. He is now 37 and been with the same partner
for 15 years. He's a great relative who pays his taxes, contributes to the
community and has many non-gay friends. He and many of other family members
have since left the Mormon church. That same story can be told by thousands of
others. Time to come out of the dark ages.
I believe this is a step in the right direction; however, I also believe that
good choices should be made for the right reasons. I hope the Boy Scout
organization is not doing this because they feel outside pressure from
corporations or gay rights groups, but are doing this because they have a
fundamental understanding that barring someone from their organization SIMPLY on
the basis of their sexual orientation is not morally right (however, as a
private organization it certainly is their prerogative). If sexual purity is an
aim of the Boy Scout organization, they can certainly put in place rules against
homosexual BEHAVIOR, and remove individuals from their organization that violate
those rules. What's most disheartening about politics is that
it has the tendency to dehumanize people and skew reality. Each person on this
earth is a beloved son or daughter of God. Our individual value and worth is
greater than any of us can imagine. Could you honestly look someone in the eye
who you knew was a good person (maybe even your own son) and tell them they are
no longer welcome or worth anything upon finding out their sexual orientation
To not allow homosexual men to be scout leaders doesn't demonize them any
more than not allowing heterosexual men to be girl scout leaders demonizes them.
It's just common sense. I don't know if any of my fellow scouts were
homosexual when I was a boy. It wasn't an issue. But, I'm sure my
folks would have been upset if one of our leaders was a homosexual. The boy
scouts have made the right call on this.
any youth who is stuggling with same sex attraction in the LDS church can now at
least know he can participate with the other boys ...in a restricted fashion of
course. I do feel the church has been clear with its gay members and the word is
you are welcome in the church and the Lord loves you. A 12 or 13 year old boy
needs all the love and support he can get with all the things he made be
stuggling with in his life and being rejected isn't something he needs.
This is a strange thing to do for BSA. I say strange because the real issue is
not with the boys but with the adults. How many homosexual 12 year old boys have
you known? Zero for me and I suspect that is true for most people. However if
there were an openly gay 12-13 year old I suspect special accomidations would
still have to be made for him on camp outs and other situations where the boys
were all together - sleeping or showering etc... I appalud BSA for keeping the
ban on gay adult leaders and I suspect the LDS church will most likely keep is
ties with BSA since the church doesn't ban homeosexual membership.
I’m not so upset at the BSA for allowing openly gay scouts into the
program as I am that it appears they did it because they couldn’t handle
the pressure. The supreme court had ruled in their favor. The had the law on
their side. It wasn’t until their sponsors started backing out last year
that they decided to reconsider. Essentially, they caved to the almighty dollar.
And it wasn’t for the sake of the troops either, which are
self-sustaining. It was (at least in my view) a decision made by the
administration for the administration, not a change to allow greater access to
more boys. They are nothing but a bunch of sellouts.
Glad to see the BSA finally stopping the immoral policy of discrimination,
prejiduce and hate. A victory for Christanity. They'll now get my
Re MapleDonYou are wrong. With this change people ARE standing up
for something. The 2nd greatest commandment, i.e. 'love your neighbor as
yourself'.You need to read the 4 gospels in the New Testament.
Jesus often made it a point to associate and show love and concern for what were
considered the dregs of society, the outcasts, 'the sinners'.Repent and improve. Open your heart and in this instance, the Bible.
This is exactly the solution I would have chosen. Young gay males are in
desperate need of acceptance. Also it doesn't make good sense to have
leaders of ANY youth group (who goes on campouts) who are sexually attracted to
the youth. Most could handle the temptation, the few who can't make this a
wise rule.With this change, the scouts now need to emphasize the
OK, if you are obeying the Scout Oath or Promise this should not be an issue if
you are sexually involved with any sex you are not obeying the Scout Oath now if
you have those desires and bridle them until marriage you would be good to go.
So why are we trying to make this an issue?
It is time for those who are morally opposed to the gay lifestyle to leave the
Boy Scouts. What is wrong will always be wrong no matter what laws countries,
States, or cities may enact. The gay life stye is as much a choice as living
with a person of another sex without marriage is a choice. We all have our
agency. We may all exercise our agency. None of us can change the consequence
or our choices. That is up to the God who gave us life and placed us on this
earth and gave us agency. We do not get to choose the the consequence of the
choices we make with our God given agency.
Looking back at my time in the Scouts there were two boys who later came out as
gay from our troop. One kid was from a family that was supportive and pretty
much normal. The other kid had alcoholic parents who paid little or no
attention to him. Both guys were popular and good Scouts. Neither were focused
on sex and probably struggling with their sexuality then and beyond their
Scouting experience. Scouting helped them both become better citizens and gave
them a sense of belonging which the one kid really really needed. To me, all
our kids are important, even the gay ones.Jim n' Puyallup
I feel like this is probably the best solution. I'm sure being a gay youth
is hard, and so hopefully this will help lessen that. But I do agree to keep the
ban on gay leaders. Not because they'll force the gay agenda on kids, but
because I wouldn't be comfortable with it -- I wouldn't want my sons
doing overnight campouts and whatnot with female leaders, just like I
wouldn't be comfortable with my daughters doing the same activities with
male leaders. Just my two cents anyways.
Really?! Since when is it a good idea to further distract already hard to reach
12 year old boys with sexual preference?! Why don't the boy scouts
incorporate 'Don't Ask Don't Tell'?! A completely common
sense approach for young boys...but then again common sense and morality are
relative in an foundationless immoral society.
@ MapleDonWhy would you want to punish or, discriminate against,
children? Shame on you.
If this gets approved, I will not give another dime to the Scouting program.