Dick Harmon: Geoff Martzen is latest hire in BYU football recruiting efforts

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  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 19, 2013 8:44 p.m.


    You are correct. I was looking at the Sagarin rankings. The whole point I was trying to make is that when it comes to last year's schedule depending on whose sos rankings you look at, BYU had a better sos in one and Utah in the other. What is so funny is how quick you always are to dismiss something if it doesn't agree with your line of thinking. If you had done a little research on schedules.com rankings, you would find out that they have been around for a while and are known as a very objective poll whose goal is to get rid of all subjectivity.

    It's also well known that Sagarin can be a little subjective as they have a tendency to weigh schools from BCS conferences stronger with no regard to how good they may actually be.

    Of course I also find it interesting that you love to throw out Sagarin's sos, but love to ignore the rankings which is the final result of all the data they enter.


  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    April 19, 2013 3:21 p.m.


    No those were the SOS rankings at the END of the season...as in AFTER the final bowl game had been played.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 18, 2013 3:28 p.m.


    Talk about cherry-picking. Those were the Sagarin sos rankings BEFORE the season. The Sagarin rankings at the end of the season were


    The only one I could find that calculates sos at the END od the season is the one I gave you. Just because it doesn't agree with your agenda, doesn't make it incorrect.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    April 18, 2013 1:31 p.m.


    I don't keep my posts on file after they've been posted. Just the ones that don't, so I can cut & paste them again once the hypersensitive moderator turns over his/her shift.

    "I googled "college football strength of schedule" second one down took me to a site that has calculated the sos for all college teams after the 2012 season. Lo and behold BYU has an adjusted sos rating of 48 and Utah's is 82. These are adjusted based on how each team finished the season."

    Yes, I've seen your propensity for incorporating the yellowest selective statistics in your debates with Howard over how poor your recruiting had been since leaving the MWC. You throw out the data that doesn't support your fantasy, and selectively cherry pick the ones that do. That site insists that Kent St. and Arkansas St. played a tougher schedule than a Pac-12 one. We both know that isn't true. Go look at Sagarin:

    For 2012 --
    Utes = 41
    Cougs = 63

    For 2011 --
    Utes = 49
    Cougs = 90

    "Utah had a much stronger schedule in 2011. But not in 2012."

    Not so. Utah had a much stronger schedule in BOTH!

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 18, 2013 11:42 a.m.


    No. What I am saying is that I am ok with playing the weakest teams in the WAC for a year or two until our athletic director is able to schedule out far enough so that we can eventually have some amazing schedules. Like this year. That is something that continually escapes the comprehension of some Utah fans.

    So, I am still laughing that you referenced one of your posts, then I remembered you keep a file of you posts at which point I didn't just laugh, I blew my drink all over the computer screen. Nice.
    After the laughing I read your post and am puzzled. Utah had a much stronger schedule in 2011. But not in 2012. I googled "college football strength of schedule" second one down took me to a site that has calculated the sos for all college teams after the 2012 season. Lo and behold BYU has an adjusted sos rating of 48 and Utah's is 82. These are adjusted based on how each team finished the season.
    The "we play a tougher schedule" is getting old, tired and inaccurate. Frantic, emotional and whiny.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    April 18, 2013 10:28 a.m.

    Gone fishin:

    "How is it that Ute fans claim to out recruit BYU and yet the Utes hold down the cellar in their conference."

    What does outrecruiting the Y have anything to do with our performance vs the other teams in the Pac-12? Pac-12 teams recruit significantly better talent than our little brother. Surely you're not suggesting that if we went 7-11 in the Pac-12 these past 2 seasons, that implies we hadn't outrecruited the the cougars. It just implies that we hadn't outrecruited the majority of the other teams in the Pac-12. Don't be so frantic and emotional.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    April 18, 2013 8:24 a.m.


    "Why don't you just relax like most cougar fans ...to be honest, I really don't care about as long as BYU keeps winning and going bowling."

    So in other words, what you're saying is, you LOVE lining up opposite the weakest teams in the WAC. But how are you going to relax now that the IS no more WAC?

    "You still haven't explained why Utah has steadily declined as their recruiting classes have gotten better. That's the real mystery Holmes."

    Is it STILL a mystery? It shouldn't be. That "mystery" had already been over a YEAR ago, and repeated again by me just 2 days ago. If you REALLY don't know the answer to that, but WANT to, go read what I told "Y Grad / Y Dad" at the bottom of pg. 1 of the comment page in the DNews article "Despite some fans' protests, BYU football and Friday night a winning combination".

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 18, 2013 8:07 a.m.


    By the way, throwing out the 2 highest and 2 lowest numbers is hair if you do the same for the Indy years. The problem is that leaves you with 1 number which goes back to the point I am trying to make that there isn't a large enough sampling to make accurate comparisons.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 18, 2013 7:56 a.m.


    Why choose those 3 years? That's what I am trying to say. Which 3 years pre Indy will you or I choose that will be subjective? Why don't you just relax like most cougar fans and give it a full recruiting cycle before we conclude that Indy has hurt recruiting at BYU, which, to be honest, I really don't care about as long as BYU keeps winning and going bowling. A recruiting cycle at BYU is 4 years plus a two year mission. Throw out a possible red shirt year to offset those players who don't go on a mission.

    You still haven't explained why Utah has steadily declined as their recruiting classes have gotten better. That's the real mystery Holmes.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    April 18, 2013 12:23 a.m.


    Since we're manipulating the data, it seems you want to exclude 2002 and 2010 from the data set because they were uncharacteristically good years.

    To be balanced let's also exclude 2003 and 2008 because they were unusually bad years.

    When you exclude two good years and two bad years from the combined Rivals/Scout rankings the pre-indy announcement ranking average is 54.

    Compared to the post-indy ranking of 64 that represents an average ranking drop of 10 spots.

    But I like your idea of comparing rankings for equal time periods.

    So lets compare the three year average rankings post-indy with the three years pre-indy.

    We've already calculated the three year post-indy ranking at 64.

    The combined Rivals/Scout ranking for the three years pre-indy (2010, 2009, 2008) is 49 resulting in a post-indy ranking drop of 15 spots.

    Now you will want to manipulate the three year data by excluding 2010 because it was an unusually good year. That exclusion in unnecessary because 2010 is offset by including 2008 in the data set which was an unusually bad recruiting year.

    Whatever data set you use shows that indy has hurt BYU recruiting.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 17, 2013 5:55 p.m.

    I will be happy to explain why I left out those two years. Two reasons, the top 25 year was an anomaly and not just out of the norm, but way out of the norm. The 2002 year, as we all know was what happens when you relax the honor code and academic standards. 1/3 of that class was kicked out due to the fact that Crowton failed to educate them what was truly expected of them.

    One more thing, I figured since you were willing to ignore the rules of statistics in coming up with your numbers, I would do the same. As in comparing a sample size of 9 years against a sample size of 3 years. To make a fair comparison you really need to wait another 6 years before drawing any conclusions.

  • Gone fishin Murray, UT
    April 17, 2013 4:52 p.m.

    How is it that Ute fans claim to out recruit BYU and yet the Utes hold down the cellar in their conference. BYU gets more out of their so-called lesser recruits that Utah does out of their 12 star rectuits. Enjoy the basement one more year.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    April 17, 2013 3:53 p.m.

    Bronco/Kyle Era (2005 to 2012)

    Top 25 Finishes
    Bronco 5 of 8 (63%)
    Kyle 3 of 8 (38%)

    Top 15 Finishes
    Bronco 3 of 8 (38%)
    Kyle 1 of 8 (13%)

    Average Sagarin Rating
    Bronco 30
    Kyle 37

    Ind/PAC era
    Top 25 Finishes
    BYU 1 of 2 (50%)
    Utah 0 of 2 (0%)

    Average Sagarin Rating
    BYU 30
    Utah 50

    Despite the clueless spin from the usual suspects, it's quite obvious that recruiting rankings are over-rated when it comes to predicting on-the-field success.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    April 17, 2013 3:38 p.m.


    What U SHOULD be concerned with is that in the past four years, Utah has had 4 of its best recruiting classes in the past decade, and yet in each of the past four years, Utah has finished worse in record and/or ranking than the year prior.

    2009-2010: Finished 10-3, ranked 24 in Sagarin. 2009 Recruiting Ranking (per Rivals): #44
    2010-2011: Finished 10-3, ranked 26 in Sagarin. 2010 Recruiting Ranking (per Rivals): #32
    2011-2012: Finished 8-5, ranked 39 in Sagarin. 2011 Recruiting Ranking (per Rivals): #37
    2012-2013: Finished 5-7, ranked 61 in Sagarin. 2012 Recruiting Ranking (per Rivals): #28.

    So coming off of your best recruiting class of the last four year, U had the worst record and ranking. Not a good trend for Utah.

    This year (2013), U had a recruiting class ranked #44 (per Rivals). I wonder what will happen? My guess: 4-8.

    Go Cougars!

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    April 17, 2013 3:31 p.m.


    This is an argument you're going to lose, my friend. Cougars1 has shown BYU's rankings according to Rivals since 2002. The average ranking for ALL of those classes is a 63 (that's including the best two years and the worst two years). The average ranking for the classes from 2002-2010 (the MWC years) is ALSO a 63 (not sure where you're getting that "47" from).

    That means that since BYU went independent, 2 of their 3 classes have been slightly above their average, while one class was slightly below.

    So much for your "worst recruiting classes in a decade" comment.

    Moreover, this is who BYU is. BYU has higher academic standards for its football program than most schools, not to mention the honor code that every student who attends BYU must adhere to.

    BYU has a much smaller recruiting pool that almost every other college. Yet the Cougs are doing just fine and are, in fact, excelling.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    April 17, 2013 1:50 p.m.


    Throw out the two highest?

    Manipulating the data?

    If you must manipulate how about throwing out the best two and the worst two as outliers?

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 17, 2013 11:11 a.m.

    Here are BYU's rankings per year.
    2013-70 2005-63
    2012-61 2004-65
    2011-62 2003-108
    2010-40 2002-36
    These are according to rivals.
    If you throw out the two best years from rivals and scouts and average out both you have an average of 64 after announcing Independence and an average of 61 before. Some people like scouts better and some like rivals. What is puzzling is what we are to do with all the walk-ons and 2 and 3 star recruits such as Chad Lewis, Max Hall, Austin Collie, etc.

    Come on, the real question is why are you so obsessed with proving that BYU should have not gone Independent? As a Cougar fan I am flattered with your obsession over BYU.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    April 17, 2013 9:21 a.m.


    Return to normal?

    The facts are not on your side.

    During the MWC years from 2002 to 2010 BYU's average recruiting ranking was 47.

    After the announcement of Indy from 2011 to 2013 the average ranking was 63.

    A drop of 16 places is not a return to normal.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 16, 2013 10:57 p.m.


    Great point. I should give up trying to educate someone who refuses to abandon preconceived notions and loves to make stuff up and pass it off as fact.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 16, 2013 10:38 p.m.


    If BYU is desperate as you say then Utah is as well. It seems they went through some house cleaning of their own.

  • sammyg Springville, UT
    April 16, 2013 10:41 p.m.


    Your concern and knowledge in BYU recruiting is amazing. So I'm still waiting for the excuses as to why the Utes can't out recruit USC, Stanford, Oregon, etc. and also lose to a WAC team like USU. Then of course that brings up the question about losing to the Buffs in 2011.

    And then several of us are still curious as to how the Utes continue to recruit so well and still manage to stay home for the holidays? How's that indicative of superior recruiting?

    I think you should really ponder these questions and provide some real solutions and bring them up to Whit and company because there's not one BYU fan that cares about your silly remarks about past BYU recruiting and so called downward trends, especially offered by a fan of a cellar-dweller program like your precious Utes.

    ZERO credibility howie. ZERO LOL

    And how is the panic attack on all fronts in Uteville? Spring camp train wreck and even the fans are griping about the dismal performance.

    Not the usual Rose Bowl hype we typically hear about this time. Of course after two losing seasons the fans are growing impatient. LOL

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 16, 2013 10:40 p.m.


    To answer your question, no. First of all, rather than a downturn, I would look at it as a return to normal. For 1 or 2 years they just happened to be above average. There is a lot more to being recruited to BYU than just being LDS. Star is a perfect example. He originally committed to BYU but was unable to meet academic requirements. I also believe that Utah has taken a few recruits from BYU because of being in the PAC. But that has always happened to a degree.(Manti Teo) Sometimes LDS athletes go to other schools because of better opportunities, but you try to make it sound like the ESPN contract doesn't help BYU at all in recruiting and that's just not true.

    As for Holmoe cleaning house. That had more to do with the poor offensive output over the last couple of years despite having a ton of talent. Holmoe understands better than you how difficult it is to recruit to BYU. I guess we will find out this fall if Bronco and Holmoe are smarter than you. I already know the answer.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    April 16, 2013 9:36 p.m.


    You think little fluctuations in the talent of BYU's limited recruiting pool is the main reason for the 3 year down turn in recruiting?

    Little talent fluctuations don't explain a 3 year downturn.

    Utah's recruiting is on the upswing in the last three years and part of that upswing is due to some very talented LDS athletes.

    These are athletes that in earlier years were locks for BYU. But now these players have an opportunity to play in the PAC12 with the option (if they choose) of an LDS environment.

    Utah getting players from the BYU recruiting pool has more to do with the BYU recruiting downturn than talent fluctuations.

    One down recruiting year is a concern.
    Two down years is a crisis.
    Three down years is a disaster.
    Four down recruiting years is a program killer.

    Tom Holmoe is well aware of the danger that three bad recruiting years pose for BYU.

    That's why he cleaned house. Cleaning house is what desperate managers do when faced with a disaster that they don't know how to fix. It usually doesn't help solve the problem, but it distracts attention from the disaster.

  • AZ to UT to TX Allen, TX
    April 16, 2013 5:03 p.m.

    I don't know about the 2011 recruiting season, but I do remember the 2012 season. Last year they decided to offer wide receiver scholarships to Austin Collie's little brother and some kid playing 3A ball in Arizona and passed on the Texas 5A all-state standout. I remember BYU saying "You do your part and we'll do ours." Well he did his part by receiving All-State honors in 5A TEXAS! BYU did their part by telling him he had preferred walk-on status. As long as BYU recruits on nepotism and not athletic performance BYU will continue to be mediocre at best.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 16, 2013 1:27 p.m.


    I would be happy to give some explanation. Not in an attempt to refute, but to simply bring to light the fact that going from the MWC to having games on ESPN is not the reason for the drop off in recruiting. It actually has a little to do with what you say about playing a WAC heavy schedule.(believe it or not, that really makes a lot of sense to me) You play a weak schedule, recruits may shy away. One more thing(which I tried to explain to Howie but went over his head), when you play a lot on ESPN and you lose to all the good teams you play, that can't be good for recruiting. But, the biggest explanation may have something to do with the fact that BYU has a small recruiting pool to begin with and the talent level in that pool only has to fluctuate a little bit to have a big affect on a recruiting class in any given year. Bottom line, it's tough to recruit to BYU. Most BYU fans realize this and are ok with it.

  • IRS Agent PROVO, UT
    April 16, 2013 1:20 p.m.

    @Nasal Vet

    No, I am not agreeing with you and Howard. I was simply referring to your use of Indy-WACey as a derogatory term in an attempt to put down the team that you seem to have so much contempt for. For someone whose team is supposed to be the "big brother" and is supposedly far superior to BYU, you sure seem to have an unhealthy obsession with everything that happens at BYU, everything that is reported about BYU, and anyone who is associated with BYU. What happened to cause so much angst and insecurity?

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    April 16, 2013 12:20 p.m.

    IRS Agent:

    So in other words, what you're saying is, you agree with Howard and I that the depth and quality of your recruiting classes had plummeted since leaving the MWC for the WAC? It sure sounds like it. Afterall, you had nothing of substance to support any argument to the contrary.

  • IRS Agent PROVO, UT
    April 16, 2013 12:16 p.m.

    Has "Indy-WACey" replaced "Fail" as the new "hip" phrase used by intellectuals in an attempt to put down something they don't understand or agree with? Man, it's hard to keep up with all this new lingo.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    April 16, 2013 9:47 a.m.


    You seem to be under the mistaken Indy-WACey assumption that everyone who thinks the Y's recruiting classes had plunged to depths not seen in over a decade must be the same person. But we're not. Howard S, Scout, Rivals, and I are all entirely unrelated.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    April 16, 2013 7:48 a.m.

    Springville, UT

    "Does it matter? Does anyone care about this?"

    Does it matter?

    Well... It must matter because BYU just hired a recruiting coordinator.

    I don't think Martzen was hired to continue 3 years of low ranked recruiting classes.

  • sammyg Springville, UT
    April 16, 2013 12:42 a.m.


    how many times are we going to be reminded about your obsession of past BYU recruiting classes? Does it matter? Does anyone care about this?

    What many of us are really curious about is how Ute fans think they will ever Rose Bowl when they will never out recruit USC, Stanford, Oregon, etc.

  • Don't Feed the Trolls Salt Lake City, UT
    April 15, 2013 11:42 p.m.

    Howard, out of curiosity, what Utah recruiting class were you part of?

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    April 15, 2013 7:13 p.m.

    Martzen has a lot of ground to make up...

    Since announcing independence and its ESPN contract BYU has signed its three lowest ranked recruiting classes since 2002.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 15, 2013 6:47 p.m.


    That is a great question. He and Doman were favorites of some kids I know. They were very well liked by the kids. I thought he was perfect for the position even if they took him away from his coaching responsibilities. I understand the Atuaia hire from a coaching standpoint, but Dupaix was a great recruiting coordinator.

  • Monsieur le prof Sandy, UT
    April 15, 2013 6:24 p.m.

    Why was Joe Dupaix fired? And why did they wait so late to let him go, after the deadline when most other universities were looking for new coaches? From what I've heard, he was not only very capable and an excellent example, but also well-liked by the players. Why didn't they just keep him on as this personnel person instead of letting him go?

  • Average Me Bremerton, WA
    April 15, 2013 4:29 p.m.

    Am I from generation Y or Z?

  • MN Doug Rochester, MN
    April 15, 2013 4:14 p.m.

    Naval Vet, right now the NCAA is looking to throw out A LOT of the limitations on the amount of coaches contact during recruiting (phone calls, visits, etc.). This would open the floodgate to daily contact with highly sought-after recruits from the Universities. Many Universities have spoken openly about hiring a non-coach person to work fulltime in this role of keeping daily or regular contact with recruits (among other things...I hope).

  • sls Columbia, MO
    April 15, 2013 3:22 p.m.

    "So, why did Mendenhall hire Martzen and not a former player or coach connected with BYU who needed a job?"

    Great question that still remains unanswered by the end of the article. No disrespect to Martzen, but I would think that someone connected with BYU in the past or the present is going to add more in terms of selling the BYU program to potential recruits than someone who comes in from Boise State and Alabama, especially when BYU is competing against former players who have gone to other places and now try to denigrate the program.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    April 15, 2013 2:58 p.m.

    "Pending the outcome of current NCAA legislation, BYU has not named a full-time coach as a recruiting coordinator to replace Dupaix..."

    Pending the outcome of current NCAA legislation? What does the NCAA's legislators have anything to do with whether or not a school decides to hire a recruiting coordinator?

  • Hondo Scottsdale, AZ
    April 15, 2013 2:30 p.m.

    I hope Martzen plans to take recruits to the Creamery when they visit campus. I'm surprised that Harmon didn't mention that recruiting edge that BYU has, given how often he gorges himself on that soft, smooth ,creamy deliciousness.