Bishop Wester joins voices calling for veto of controversial gun bill

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  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    March 19, 2013 11:49 a.m.

    Yeah, John, I know that is the study you are referring to. Sorry, but Prof Kleck's study has been shown to be very flawed. And by saying flawed I'm being kind. Fantasy would be a better word. Read some of the critiques of it. There are any number of them. There is very good reason you never hear about Kleck's study from the media.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 18, 2013 11:42 p.m.


    Yes it is. Google Prof. Gary Kleck, Florida State Univ.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    March 17, 2013 7:11 p.m.

    John, because it's not true.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 16, 2013 7:45 p.m.


    If its anecdotal evidence you want, you need to read the studies that show armed citizens use a firearm to prevent a crime thousands of times each day in this country. But we never hear that from the leftist media. I wonder why.

  • Elcapitan Ivins, UT
    March 16, 2013 12:12 p.m.

    In the old days we were pretty well all trained in gun safety supported by the NRA. I can remember our Jr. High Coach, a real boys man letting me take home one of his revolvers without ammo to show my parents. He had loaned this to me for a prop in a coowboy show at the Jr. High School. That was over 70 years ago an no one even on the school bus even worried about it. I had been trained in gun safety by my grandpa and dad and knew the dangers of mishandling a firearem. who trains nowdays aside from the Boy Scouts, Front Sight, Conceal Carry Instructors and the NRA. Certainly not the schools.

    Governor, veto the bill, there are too many nut jobs and revenge freaks running and driving around nowdays who have never had any trainsing at all, especially from schools. It gives a call for more frequent display of a firearm in the hands of trained individuals.We do ot need this.l

  • Elcapitan Ivins, UT
    March 16, 2013 12:00 p.m.

    Craig Clark, you are from Colorado where liberals want control and have it to a large degree with legalizing drugs, refusing Jessica's law, etc. We are not Colorado. The second
    amendment is not about drivers licenses or car registration, it relates to the right to bear arms without infringment. Please at least, stay on topic.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    March 16, 2013 11:14 a.m.

    in 2003, New York City Councilman James Davis (D) was shot and killed by a political opponent in the City Council chamber prior to the meeting. Davis' assassin, Othniel Askew, who was killed by police, had purchased his weapon legally. He was able to bring it into City Hall under rules then in place that allowed council members and their guests to bypass metal detectors. Davis, a retired police officer, was also carrying a gun when he was shot.

    "In 2010, NY police hit three bystanders in a shootout with a gunman."

    " In another incident, gunman, Jeffrey T. Johnson, collapsed and died: nine bystanders were struck, cradling bloody arms or lying on the sidewalks and curbs.

    The police commissioner, Raymond W. Kelly, confirmed on Saturday that all nine were wounded by police bullets, bullet fragments or shrapnel from ricochets. Mr. Kelly also confirmed that the shooter, Mr. Johnson, never fired another shot after killing a former co-worker, Steven Ercolino, moments earlier."

    And these incidents happened with fully trained and experienced professionals.
    What do you suppose the chances of "success" are with average citizens taking the law into their own hands?

  • zoar63 Mesa, AZ
    March 16, 2013 11:06 a.m.

    I think effective gun control would be passing laws that target the criminal element something like if a gun is used in the commission of a crime it will be punishable by a 25 year prison sentence without the possibility of parole. A sentence like that would make anyone think twice before using a gun to harm or threaten a person.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    March 16, 2013 10:41 a.m.


    First, D.C. Does not have a total gun ban. It did have a ban against handguns until the Supreme Court struck it down in 2008 in Heller v D.C.

    Second, It is a very short trip from D.C. to VA where gun laws are lax.

    D.C. is illustrative of why we Federal gun laws.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    March 16, 2013 10:22 a.m.

    Did anybody read about the drive by shooting that Happened in DC this week where there is a total Gun ban? It probably didn't make many headwaves seeing as how this is counter productive to all of the anti-gun propoganda out in the news these days. This just proves that Criminals will always find ways to get Guns.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    March 16, 2013 10:19 a.m.

    Not letting people make their own choices and having the fear if people were to have that option that they would make the wrong choice.

    It sounds like something that Satan would do because thats what he wanted.

    Why are we even here if the Government wont even give us the power to make our own choices out of fear of us making the wrong choices?

    Supressing the Free will is Facist. You got to let people make their own choices even if it's the wrong choice because how are they going to learn?

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    March 16, 2013 10:14 a.m.

    This guy isn't being liberal enough.

    Lets ban all marriages because there are people who kill or abuse their spouses.

    Lets ban all birth because the world is overpopulated and some kids are born into an abusive enviornment.

    Lets ban automobiles because somebody can kill as many people nehind the wheel as they can with a gun.

    Lets ban anything else that can be used as a weapon regardless of what people need it for.

    Lets do away with Names, Hairstyles, and Clothes because these things create invidualism. And somepeople may look better than others.

    Lets just have everybody wear uniforms, call everybody by numbers, live in the same type of house while our government lives in palaces.

  • funny_guy Vacaville, CA
    March 16, 2013 8:00 a.m.

    Those that feel background checks are a good idea are neglecting the fact that criminals don't need background checks to obtain a firearm. Background checks are merely a formality, a way for government to keep track of where "legal" guns are located. Government is doing nothing to locate and remove illegal weapons or to prevent illegal activity. Government can't guarantee our safety no more than they can secure our border from terrorists and those intent on committing crime. Criminals are not afraid of the law. They know that if they get arrested, judges will release them in a few years anyway. They don't mind risking time in jail as it is just free room and board. Their logic is completely different than that of a sane, law abiding citizen.

    The fool is that person who thinks government can protect and secure us.

  • funny_guy Vacaville, CA
    March 16, 2013 7:45 a.m.

    Those intent on doing harm to others will use a gun no matter what the law. They have no respect for either the law or humanity. Gun owners for the most part are responsible, law abiding citizens. Carrying a weapon in public merely adds another dimension to this responsibility. True, accidents may occur but for the most part having responsible gun owners on the streets may deter criminal activity and make us more safe.

    We have delegated the responsibility of public safety to the police and as a result 'public safety' is worse not better. Gang bangers aren't afraid to shoot up the streets because they know no one will stop them. Maybe, just maybe, knowing they could be killed will stop a criminal. Fear is a strong motivator to those with a shallow mind.

    Why do we always punish law-abiding citizens? Sadly, it has gotten to the point where I fear government (the law) more than I fear criminals. Progressives (Obama) want us totally dependent upon government and unfortunately many have gotten sucked into this mindset. The concept of limited government is no longer understood.

    "Freedoms, just another word for nothing left to loose." Joan Baez

  • yarrlydarb Ogden, UT
    March 16, 2013 7:23 a.m.

    America's love affair with guns is disgusting, embarrassing sick.

  • Springvillepoet Springville, UT
    March 16, 2013 6:43 a.m.

    @Th. Jefferson:

    Actually, I think the Hon. Bishop Wester would simply say your comment was an ad hominem attack, meant to distract people from the real issue.

  • IJ Hyrum, Ut
    March 16, 2013 6:26 a.m.

    "Driving is niether a right nor a privilege."

    Craig Clark - it has to be one or the other and since it is not a right it has to be a priviledge. Call it what you wnat, it is a priviledge.

    Gun ownership is a right guarentteed by the constitution of the United States of America.

  • IJ Hyrum, Ut
    March 16, 2013 6:25 a.m.

    "People are being killed by guns at an alarming rate," Bishop Wester said. "Anything that touches on guns, especially the proliferation of guns, is a concern.

    "A gun is a very forceful instrument, a very lethal thing and it makes sense that we do have laws that require background checks as a way of protecting the sanctity of human life."

    Perhaps the good Bishop doesn't know that guns are actually low on the list of weapons used to take life. Why is he not speaking out on those items on the list that top guns? Guns are a very dramatic display of force, but cars are 34+ times more likely to kill someone and yet he does not speak out against them. Maybe he should educate himself before he speaks in favor of slavery; YES! slavery because that's the aim of those who would take the insturment that would prevent them from enslaving you.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    March 16, 2013 2:34 a.m.

    "When the bill of rights was written, individual citizens owned the most powerful arms there was, cannons!"

    This is true.

    So as such, I will concede, you have an absolute right to own, uninfringed, the weapons available in the Founders' days. Help yourself to all the muzzle loaders you want, as the Founders intended. But just the muzzle loaders, that is all the Founders had, all they could imagine, and all they were writing about.

    Anything else, and we will have to discuss it and see if we all agree it is okay.

    All you people (actually very, very few except for on the D News boards for some reason) that think you should have access to any type of weapon, anytime and anywhere you want, well sorry, you don't get your way. And I don't care how much you stamp your feet, nor how long you hold your breath. You aren't going to get them. The adults are going to talk and make this decision. We'll let you know what we decide.

  • Say What? Bountiful, UT
    March 16, 2013 12:02 a.m.


    Antibiotics kill period.

    Soldiers who defend our nation likewise.

  • Osgrath Provo, UT
    March 15, 2013 11:00 p.m.

    Passing a background check does not infringe on anybody's right to bear arms, unless they have no business bearing arms because of mental illness or criminal record. The argument is that people need to arm themselves to the teeth to protect themselves from the government. I think that if the government were to issue a proclamation require all to surrender their arms, the insurrection would start right then; people who arm themselves against the government would not comply. Therefore, registering weapons does not threaten anyone's right to own it. People have become so spiteful in their hatred of the government that they have lost the ability to see straight.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    March 15, 2013 10:12 p.m.

    Even Scalia said that not all regulation on guns is unconstitutional.

    Besides, I've seen how this state works with the 21st Amendment and 1st Amendment. Why is the 2nd the only one some of you seem to believe should be unlimited?

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 15, 2013 9:13 p.m.

    "The states you named, Alaska, Arizona and Wyoming are all ranked in the top 10 for number of firearm deaths. But i suppose they are states with rampant crime?"


    Nearly 3/4 of which are suicides. To compare meaningful statistics, how about looking at criminal homicides with firearms in those states and areas like Chicago and DC? But they are not included in the skewed study you allude to. Guess why.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    March 15, 2013 8:24 p.m.

    I am not anti-gun. But I am very much anti-stupidity.

    Allowing unlimited access to deadly weapons by untrained people is stupid. Allowing anyone to go to a gun show and purchase a gun without a background check is stupid. Thinking that anyone needs a clip carrying more than six rounds is stupid.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    March 15, 2013 8:00 p.m.


    The right is guaranteed to the people,

    not to militias,

    and not to the state.

    And it talks about well regulated militias, not well regulated arms.

    When the bill of rights was written, individual citizens owned the most powerful arms there was, cannons!

    The right is not about hunting nor self defense.

    That tells you all you need to know.

    If the government is too powerful to fight against, that is just an argument that the people rights are infringed.

    infringed means to limit or to reduce,

    So, our right to bear arms shall not be limited or reduced.

    It could not be any more clearer.

  • yarrlydarb Ogden, UT
    March 15, 2013 7:11 p.m.

    Guns kill, period!

    Anyone who thinks he or she needs a gun to be reasonably secure in this world is demonstrating an extreme level naivete about his or her ability to protect themselves together with severe symptoms of paranoia.

    The popular but inane comment that it's not guns that kill; it's people who kill might boast that they are technically right, but there's no denying that it's a gun that does the dirty work.

    How anyone can claim they have religious beliefs toward their fellow man and still harbor the intent to kill someone for supposed self-protection speak out of both sides of their mouth.

    Just sayin' ...

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    March 15, 2013 7:07 p.m.


    The states you named, Alaska, Arizona and Wyoming are all ranked in the top 10 for number of firearm deaths. But i suppose they are states with rampant crime?

  • Beaver Native Garland, UT
    March 15, 2013 7:01 p.m.

    The stated purpose of the 2nd amendment is to provide the necessity of a militia to protect the free state. It also says "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed". Arguments can be made on both sides as to its meaning, but its purpose is to protect a free state, not to provide for personal protection or hunting. Personal safety and hunting are irrelevant to the stated intent of the 2nd amendment. I believe that a person should be allowed to hunt or protect himself or others so long as he doesn't impose a threat to the rights or freedom of society, but if you're using the second amendment to argue the right to hunt or for personal safety reasons, you're out of context.

  • Claudio Springville, Ut
    March 15, 2013 5:22 p.m.

    Re: MapleDon

    So, you believe that the problem with this article is not that the legislature passed a bill allowing everyone to have the right to be untrained and carry a concealed device, the sole purpose of which is to kill others, but it is that Bishop Wester, a prominent community leader, shared his views on the bill and the media published it?

    Don't look now, but your hypocrisy is showing.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    March 15, 2013 5:17 p.m.

    Suggestion to Utah government.

    Put educational videos on the Utah government web
    to teach people the rules of gun safety and the legal
    use of guns in Utah.

    Guns like cars need not be scary and most people
    can be counted on to use them responsibly, but
    education will help.

  • Noodlekaboodle Poplar Grove, UT
    March 15, 2013 5:06 p.m.

    So for everyone that is in support of unlimited, unfettered access to guns I have a question for you. Would you be ok with nudity, and every profane word ever invented on broadcast channels during prime time? Should I be able to walk around the city without pants or underwear on? What about sex in public? Should I be able to walk into a movie theater and scream that the place is on fire to cause a panic? Or are restrictions on these things reasonable in the name of decency and public safety? Or is it only the 2nd amendment that can have no restrictions?

  • The Hammer lehi, utah
    March 15, 2013 4:58 p.m.

    This bill is bad for citizens because it doesn't help them understand the use of deadly force. Carrying concealed if for one purpose and that is to use their weapon in a time of great urgency. Proper training should accompany that time so they know when they can pull their gun, when they can fire in self defense and where they are ok to carry. The current law does not infringe on our rights to bear arms all it calls for is education prior to carrying deadly force concealed in public.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 15, 2013 4:57 p.m.

    More "blood in the streets" fear-mongering. The gun-grabbers who don't trust the law-abiding electorate have used that argument for decades in trying to prevent the proliferation of "shall issue" concealed carry legislation across the country, and the growing movement of "constitutional" carry legislation, starting with Alaska, then Arizona and Wyoming. You'd think they'd be embarassed to be proven wrong so many times.

  • Wildcat O-town, UT
    March 15, 2013 4:25 p.m.

    I need weapons grade plutonium to protect myself from a potential government threat. From reading the postings on this board, I think the second amendment gives me that right. The right to bear arms. a nuclear missile or bomb is an arm of types. Get off my back government...I am a responsible need to worry.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    One of the definitions of Militia:

    a body of citizens enrolled for military service, and called out periodically for drill but serving full time only in emergencies.

    Doesn't that sound like the National Guard? I don't think Thomas Jefferson had envisioned a day of assault weapons and WMD--I don't think it was his intent to protect those at the expense of the safety of the public. Regulation doesn't equate to infringement.

    Not to worry, Governor Herbert is spineless and will sign it along with the bill that would help 150,000 people get health coverage. Does this sound like good governance?

    Move over Mississippi--here comes Utar, God bless the Beehive State!

  • justamacguy Manti, UT
    March 15, 2013 4:21 p.m.

    Once upon a time, there were no firearms laws and people were happy. Then somebody thought they should impose laws on law abiding people. And they didn't work. So they thought they would impose more laws. And that didn't work. Now they want more laws, that won't work. Why make criminals out of law abiding citizens. The real criminals go through the judicial revolving door and are let back out on the streets to violate again and again. The said you couldn't carry a loaded gun in your car, and that was repealed. What happened? Nothing. Repeal the registration laws and what will happen. Nothing. Just a free society. If these laws work so well, why don't we just make a law that says, "Murder is illegal." Oh, wait, we have that? How is that working for you? If Herbert veto's it, it will be his last term.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    March 15, 2013 3:15 p.m.

    A right, especially a constitutional right should
    only be infringed when exercising that right
    curtails the rights other people have.

    Good law abiding people having and carrying
    guns does not curtail the rights of anyone.
    Therefore taking away the gun rights of the
    law abiding ought to be seen for what it is. An
    infringement of 2nd Amendment rights.

  • MapleDon Springville, UT
    March 15, 2013 3:09 p.m.

    It's obvious to me where the DesNews is going to take us. KSL has had Doug Wright telling us now for two weeks straight that some gun restrictions are necessary. And now, by posting the good Bishop's opinion, it isn't difficult to figure out what the "powers that be" are trying to espouse through their communication channels.

    The fact is, that by putting restrictions in place regarding gun ownership or gun rights, we are violating the 2nd Amendment. And if any type of "infringement" of those rights can be put in place, and the Supreme Court goes along with it, then the 2nd Amendment is dead, and with it our freedom.

    We should be addressing mental illness and violence in our entertainment, which often glorifies mass murder.

    The rationale of the left (and those who like to cozy up to the left) regarding guns is the same as taking all fatty foods from everyone because a few people ate themselves to death. Oh wait, they're working on that one too.

    Let's not forget that freedom and liberty are at the root of this issue.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    March 15, 2013 3:04 p.m.

    If taking guns away from the law abiding made
    anyone safer this call to the governor would
    make some sense.

  • dave4197 Redding, CA
    March 15, 2013 2:49 p.m.

    Thank you Bishop Wester for speaking out where necessary. Thanks Gov Herbert for already speaking that this is a bad law, I hope you veto this law and don't call the "legislature" that tried to do this back into session. The "lawmakers" who did this are deluded, nutty.

    You want to carry a concealed weapon? legally? go thru the law's steps that attempt to verify that you're clear minded enough and not a threat to the rest of us. that's a reasonable limitation on the 2nd amendment.

  • nonceleb Salt Lake City, UT
    March 15, 2013 2:21 p.m.

    The legislature rejected a proposal to tear down the "Zion Curtain." They want to allow the carrying of a gun without a permit (and thus no training). After all, seeing a drink mixed by a professional baretender is more dangerous and lethal than an untrained citizen with a concealed weapon. What you don't see can't hurt you.

  • m.g. scott LAYTON, UT
    March 15, 2013 2:11 p.m.

    Re: Craig Clark, by the way I commend you for using your name when posting.

    The thing is, with the atheist entering a church and shouting his views, that would simply be called a trespass on private property violation. He does have the right to shout those views anywhere in public and that right does come from the 1st amendment. Yes, it has been found by courts that rights do have some limits. Yelling fire in the theater, or making private ownership of maching guns illegal for most people. Still, courts have usually been very specific on those limitations. Trying not to step on the right as a whole.
    And I do think that when a judge takes away a drivers license he calls it "revoking a privilidge."

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    March 15, 2013 1:46 p.m.

    "I have to get my automobile license plates renewed annually" Not so you can have the privilege to drive it, but for the purpose of taxing it.

  • JParkerfan St. George, UT
    March 15, 2013 1:43 p.m.

    Maybe liberals ought to get together and figure out a way to get criminals to get background checks, safety training, gun law education, and gun registration. Good luck!!!!!!!!!
    Gun owners do not want to give up any rights because once you get these things you want now, you'll move onto other laws that infringe on our 2nd amendment rights.
    Reminds me of the liberal progressive tax system we have!

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    March 15, 2013 1:42 p.m.

    Driving is niether a right nor a privilege. It's a regulated activity under state licensing authority. The 1st Amendment doesn't give an atheist the right to enter a church with a bullhorn to shout his views where people are at worship. No right is without limits. That's not what American liberty is about.

  • m.g. scott LAYTON, UT
    March 15, 2013 1:37 p.m.

    The only trouble with your argument Craig Clark is that the gun issue is a constitutional 2nd amendment issue. Like free speech or religion in the 1st amendment is. Driving is not a constitutional right, but a privilige given by states.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    March 15, 2013 1:03 p.m.

    I find regestration of guns a step forward. I have to get my automobile license plates renewed annually and my vehicle operator's license renewed every five years. Resistance to gun registration would be negligible were it not for laws requiring it having been so lax or nonexistent before now. Change always takes some getting used to.

  • Linus Bountiful, UT
    March 15, 2013 1:03 p.m.

    Criminals carry without a permit. Criminals carry without a background check. Criminals carry without gun safety training. All this law does is put law-abiding citizens on the same footing as those who threaten our property, our safety and our lives. I am in favor of having a fighting chance to protect mine. Please, Governor, don't veto this law.

  • spudman Cottonwood, AZ
    March 15, 2013 1:01 p.m.

    What part of "shall NOT be infringed" does no one understand? The Second Amendment is NOT about hunting; it's about freedom and liberty and protecting ourselves, our family and others. When the founding fathers drew up the Bill of Rights they started out with basic GOD GIVEN rights then asked themselves how are we going to guarantee those rights from an overbearing government. We as humans have a BASIC right to protect ourselves. The only thing the police can do after the fact is clean up the mess and find the perpetrator; they cannot protect us. That is our job.

  • happy2bhere LAYTON, UT
    March 15, 2013 12:33 p.m.

    I don't think this bill will be harmful or be of much value either way. Those who really wanted to carry found it rather easy to get the concealed carry permit to begin with. And if a person really didn't want to carry, I doubt many will now just pick up a gun and carry because they can. I'd be surprised if it changed peoples behavior much if any. And after all, that's what we are talking about with most any law, controlling peoples behavior. Arn't we?