suzyk1- I'm sorry for the way you think about this. It's tragic that
your niece has a problem. However, the vast majority of people who drink, do so
responsibly. I've had an alcoholic in my family as well. But the rest of
our family that drinks, has never had a problem, and honestly other than perhaps
college, hasn't even been drunk. Most of us have a glass of wine with
dinner, or a beer after work. Not everyone who drinks, does so to the extremes
that are portrayed in the media. Most of the out of control MTV style of
drinking comes with immaturity, or having not been around responsible drinkers
in their life. I've seen many young drinkers come from families who
don't drink, and they are sometimes like kids in a candy store. Having
never been taught to drink responsibly, they just become binge drinkers. If you
are going to teach abstinence first, the maybe it's a good idea to also
teach moderation. In the end, having someone a young person looks up to be
honest with them, may make the difference in how they go about all choices.
George“ its a small group of very vocal people that control what our
state government does.”Yes; such as you trying to ban
reparative therapy for youth; then complaining you are the victim when people
push back against your blatant efforts at censorship. (There
isn’t even any research regarding reparative therapy for youth – it
was all done with adults and it did not recommend censorship – despite
being horribly biased. At least alcohol has plenty of research supporting
limiting its use – particularly for youth) The hypocrisy is
spectacular.@Brave Sir Robin: see my comment to Kargirl.
Kargirl I hate to break your heart, but considering that San Francisco bans soda
in schools and West Hollywood won't allow you to smoke in your own
apartment (because it might go through the vent); I am not inclined to accept
guilt trips from Cal girls. I am disinclined to accept lectures on "free
will"; when separating liquor in a restaurant does not stop anyone from
getting a drink; it simply makes it less a part of the experience; which is good
public health policy. The action is far less onerous than banning cigarette
advertisements or forcing tobacco companies to pay for anti-smoking efforts;
despite the fact than cigarettes remain legal and for sale (behind the counter).
The social costs of alcohol exceed tobacco.I am not LDS and
don't really know much about "the war in heaven"; I am more
concerned about religious paranoia here and now. So thank you for proving my
point by making this a religious issue instead of a public health issue (I
assume you are not a complete hypocrite and you wrote to the New York Times
complaining about liberal WASP's forcing you to buy your soda in smaller
@Sasha Pachev,I've also lived in the former USSR, and I'm
sure the experience gave me similar views on the effects of rampant drunkenness.
But the US has been drinking alcohol quite liberally for its entire history and
so far we're nowhere close to that level. I've been in the presence
of alcohol many times without ever feeling a need to sample it myself.
Counter Intelligence, I hate to break your heart, but we're not crazy about
loud drinkers and partiers here in the Golden State, either. Or smokers,
although I think some go a bit too far trying to tell others what to do where
they live...but there's always someone trying to do that anywhere you go,
isn't there? But no way can see there being laws against making restaurant
drinks in public, and I wouldn't vote for it. I voted for liquor by the
drink in VA in the sixties, too, when all our tax dollars went to places that
served alcohol at restaurants, since ours didn't. You know, free will is
just that, and while we cannot run around forcing moderation on folks, we cannot
force our own standards or religious principles on them, either. The LDS folks
among us need to remember, that was a big part of the war in Heaven.
JohnJacob, you hit the nail on the head. This mysterious thing happening behind
the curtain and appearing in a fancy glass at someone's meal has to be more
appealing than seeing someone do what is virtually not much different than
putting cherry flavoring in a soda. Wow...but what if both were hidden...each
would be more attractive. And if neither were hidden, people would order
according to taste. And maybe fewer would order the alcohol since there's
so much less fuss made over it. Who knows? I can tell you this--if the space
were larger for the lack of Zion's curtain laws, maybe these restaurants
involved could add tables, a job or two or more, improve their bottom line, and
thus the state economy. Anyone ever think of that?
Utah was one of the last states to get meaningful anti-smoking legislation
largely because of religious paranoiaIt is interesting that religion is
once again being used to bash any attempt to discourage drinking – or even
underage drinkingYet setting all religion aside – discouraging
alcohol use is good public health policy Alcohol actually has a higher
social and monetary cost than tobacco and there are NO health benefits (even
wine benefits can be received without the alcohol)When New York City posts
warnings for pregnant women on liquor bottles - they are considered liberal and
progressive; When Utah discourages alcohol they are called bigots - how
convenient for the real bigots.Those who whine about religious people
“forcing their lifestyle onto me” seldom consider how they force
their lifestyle onto others – after all, they seem to know that only
religious freaks or reformed alcoholics want to discourage its usePerhaps
at some point drinking alcohol will become a social stigma (just like smoking),
the “tolerant people” will be annoyed by the loud drinker at the
party just as much as they are the smoker at the next table, and the tide will
Valentine and others who came up with the stupid Zion wall can now be heroes by
removing the requirement for mixed drinks and require it be used for prep of
fatty unhealthy fried foods!
@Sasha Pachev"I've seen enough alcohol in the Soviet Union
and I stay away as far away from it as I can. If a restaurant serves alcohol at
all this is a reason good enough for me to not go there. Guys, if you want
America to be like the Soviet Union, keep pouring the booze!"Hah! You will avoid a restaurant if it serves alcohol? Wow .... just wow.Pouring booze has 0% chance of making the USA like the Soviet Union.
I've seen enough alcohol in the Soviet Union and I stay away as far away
from it as I can. If a restaurant serves alcohol at all this is a reason good
enough for me to not go there. Guys, if you want America to be like the Soviet
Union, keep pouring the booze!
I'm a card carrying (you know what i mean) member of the LDS church. I am
also a businessman, although not in the restaurant business. As a businessman, I
understand the frustration these owners have, restrictions such as these can
have dire effects. Being more tolerant of others and their practices is
something all LDS members can improve in, (me included). If we want Utah to grow
this may help by allowing owners of restaurants more freedom to operate their
business as they choose, remember it is a free country.
@suzyk#1"I've never understood why we have to have alcohol
for drinking in the first place. It brings no good to our lives. More people are
angry, are beaten, are killed because of the abuse of alcohol. It serves no
positive purpose. I know they use it in some cooking establishments but that
should be where it ends. My niece is an alcoholic (started drinking when she was
15) has had DUI's, not able to drive for a time and yet continues to drink
with friends. It's an excuse to me for drinkers; they become mean, nasty,
irrrespondible in their actions and many end up killing friends,
family....drinking causes out-of-control behavior and someone always gets hurt.
What's the good with that?"I go out once per week and have
3 drinks. Never had a problem. Your niece has a problem ... doesn't mean
the rest of us can't handle it responsibly. Don't stereotype the mass
based on your beliefs and one unfortunate experience.
I've never understood why we have to have alcohol for drinking in the first
place. It brings no good to our lives. More people are angry, are beaten, are
killed because of the abuse of alcohol. It serves no positive purpose. I know
they use it in some cooking establishments but that should be where it ends. My
niece is an alcoholic (started drinking when she was 15) has had DUI's, not
able to drive for a time and yet continues to drink with friends. It's an
excuse to me for drinkers; they become mean, nasty, irrrespondible in their
actions and many end up killing friends, family....drinking causes
out-of-control behavior and someone always gets hurt. What's the good with
Well, I guess no one else will ask the questions, so I will. I wondered why
this law, clouded in distracting moral logic debates, exists. How many
Restaurants open before 2009 felt so much competition from new ones that they
had to find an way to protect their business with a "Grand-fathered"
physical layout advantage ?? How many dining establishments , that have to
comply, opened since 2009 ??Which group of Legislators gets better service
at which Restaurants ???
Who really cares? It is something that never should have been implemented. We
have a national economy that is in a tailspin borrowing 40 percent of what it
spends and we spend time on this nonsense.
Re: "I don't think the restaurant industry wants to see that."And that's that.Since way too many members of the
legislature are bought and paid for by the "hospitality" industry, and
since that industry has now handed down its marching orders, we now know where
this bill is headed.
I doubt the Zion Curtain ever had a true practical purpose, it was silly to
begin with, and it was just one more pull of the leash to let us all know
who's really in charge here. It was simply punitive. It was passed under
the guise of shielding young eyes away from those evil liquor bottles, we all
know most kids see far worse things many times a day. If it really offends
someone to see an adult beverage being mixed, might I suggest taking your
business elsewhere, perhaps some place that shares your values and beliefs to
begin with? Yes most restaurants sell booze... perhaps that should be your
first clue that values we all mostly share is that of making money! And really,
why stymie business like that? If Utah as a state is so pro-business as our
fearless lawmakers claim, then whey are they always trying to get government to
be a nanny and our moral compass who would thwart the free market? If
restaurants are lining up for licenses to sell adult beverages, maybe its time
to concede that we should just let the adults be adults.
I am LDS and I think the Zion Curtain is ridiculous. Children will chose to
drink for many reasons and watching a drink being poured is not one of those
reasons.Hiding the issue and making alcohol exotic and forbidden
fruit will result in a person being attracted to drinking because they have no
one hovering over them telling them not to instead of the practiced agency to
chose for themselves.
I don't see much logic in these comments, just a lot of dislike of the LDS
The lawmakers in this state are a bunch of prudes ,they are 30 years behind
times,i think it,s high time that they wake up and smell the coffee,[oops i
said a bad word in this state coffee] i know of no teenagers anywhere seeing
some mix a drink is going to start them drinking that thought is just
@brave sir robinyou are right, its a small group of very vocal people that
control what our state government does. Go watch the eagle forum people
literally give the congressman the thumbs up or down on bills. Any congressman
that wants to keep their seat does what every they tell them. it is embarrassing
Utah is #1 in anti-depressant medications in the nation.Perhaps we
should focus on the REAL problems of our society, and stop making up these
ridiculous strawman veiled theocratic Word of Wisdom laws.
What's funny is I'm active LDS, my friends are (mostly) active LDS,
and none of us support the idea of the Zion Curtain. I'm willing to bet
that almost every young, active LDS church member in Utah is opposed to the Zion
Curtain.What is it that causes a very small minority of LDS people
to think that the Zion Curtain is a good idea, and how do seemingly all of them
end up as state congressmen?
The other day I told my bosswhat the zion curtain is andthe purpose
it served.She laughed so hard thatshe gave me a raise!
tell you what. i have a toddler now. if she drinks and gets caught. i am not
going to hire a laywer to get he off. i will go in take to the da and judge and
say listen i dont want this to cost me money. i dont think she would learn if i
pay it. but also dont want her getting off scott free. in reality if kids get
caught and have to pay big fines. they dont have jobs. now if they have to
actually work it off themselves as in community work. they will think twice
about drinking.he is what i suggest to control underage drinking.
put the fear of god into them. loss of license for 4 year. no plea bargining.
if they are in high school get the school break schedule when they are out of
school for weeks or even summer. they are up at 6am state will pick them up they
will work 8 hours of cleaning or yard work or what other type of work. then be
dropped off after work.
problem is they aren't supposed to drink. yet the church cant control its
people. so what that tells me is the parents have failed at teaching their
children they don't believe in drinking. they dont want to have to tell
them they don't believe in not drinking alcohol. its my belief that if you
religion tells you to teach you kids the thing that are right and wrong and you
cant do that without forcing you beliefs on others. then maybe its time to look
at taking all the people temples cards and rights away from them. they
aren't listening to the rules and words of their god. you dont
see me walk into the downtown temple and stand on a chair and say this is a
story about exactly how babies are made. not talking birds and bees. i am
talking medical details. dont tell me i can't sit in a restaurant and watch
the bartender make me a drink
Most teenagers already know about the existence of alcohol (it really isn't
a secret) and it would seem to me that seeing consumption rather than
preparation would be a bigger motivator for consumption.So logic
would dictate that if the curtain were to remain in effect, that all
consumption, not preparation would have to take place there.
Wait! This idea is logical and makes sense! But it relates to alcohol so we
can't be logical and make sense. This is Utah, gosh darn it! Hide the
booze! Do it for the children!
I fail to see how lowering the Zion curtain will lead to underage drinking at
bars and restaurants. The logic used here doesn't follow. Bars and
restaurants, if they are following the law, check ID. Teens aren't going to
be slugging back Long Island Ice Teas at the local Chili's anytime soon.
Also, the comment that drinking alcohol leads to crime so we should
ban it doesn't make logical sense. People speed in cars. Should we outlaw
automobiles entirely? Some people steal cable tv and go on to watch
inappropriate programming, should we outlaw cable tv?
"You know I just wanted a Diet Coke with my meal, but after seeing them make
that cocktail, I want one." said no teenager ever.Even if they
had it would go like thisTeen: I want a cocktail.Waiter: Can I
see your ID?Teen either shows itWaiter: I'm sorry, we can only
sell alchohol to adults over 21. May I suggest a Diet Coke?
The "Zion Curtain" is ridiculous. I don't drink, and I question
why it exists. Rep. Hutchings makes the statement that young people who drink
impede the development of their brain, then doubles down on that statement.
Nobody is arguing that here. Up for debate is whether or not a partition
prevents drinking, and there is little to no evidence that it does. Kids are
seeing alcohol in far more places than restaurants.This bill has a
good chance of passing though, considering that Mike Waddoups is no longer the
Senate President wielding his power to drive his personal agenda and that of
Gayle Ruzuicka. Let's finally have a common sense debate about this.