'Constitutional carry' bill on hold; 'safe harbor' gun bill passes House

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  • Brown Honeyvale, CA
    Feb. 28, 2013 12:38 p.m.

    @ CHS 85 So sorry your class wasn't any good. Mine was great. However, I chose an instructor who, as a profession, shoots, consults and trains people on firearms. Perhaps that is where the problem lies is in the qualifications of those allowed to instruct the classes?

    Research and select a different instructor. My instructor did show us different handguns but didn't demo them, that is why I got his card and followed up with him at the range. (He also offered to teach my kids in-depth gun safety.)

  • Brown Honeyvale, CA
    Feb. 28, 2013 12:31 p.m.

    @JoeBlow "Snarky" huh? I think I like that word :). It appears you are feeling attacked, I am only trying to point out that just because someone knows several people doesn't mean that is the actual truth/norm.

    Yes, the law of large numbers indicates that the more people who do something, the more will be affected by it--the more who ski, the more will get hurt skiing. Not a good argument against the 2nd Amendment though.

    Mall walker--responsible gun owners seldom get their full opinion on the news. If I had been interviewed you can bet they would have edited out the arrogance part of my opinion and just showed my opinion agreeing that he has the right to do it--makes for more sensational news.

    Guns in the nightstand--absolutely not an accident just PURE STUPIDITY and negligence. We already have an avenue to take care of that called civil lawsuit. What benefit would come from criminal prosecution? Would that threat change what "those people" do? Nope. You can't legislate intelligence.

    In all compromise, I am for requiring a gun handling class to complete your CCP, but give folks 6 mos or so to complete it.

  • ARationalVoice Provo, Utah, UT
    Feb. 28, 2013 10:42 a.m.

    Even Obama's justice department analysts say his proposed gun legislation won't work without confiscation or registration. Does that mean that these will be the next set of proposals?

  • Jewell in the Crown Spanish Fork, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 6:18 p.m.

    We need more pro gun laws. We just do. They are a result of common sense.

    Both of these are good laws and should be passed.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 3:28 p.m.

    To "atl134" as governments spend more money on debts and pensions, what do you expect to happen? Look at the story about Detroit. They can't pay their law enforcement. How long until New York, New Orleans, Denver, San Francisco, or other large welfare cities are in the same boat?

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 2:05 p.m.

    "As the global financial crisis gets worse, we need the Constitutional carry laws."

    What the heck does a recession make you need a gun for? Are you looking to start a coup?

  • SLMG Murtoa Australia, Victoria
    Feb. 27, 2013 12:59 p.m.

    This is a knee jerk, feel good, solve nothing bill, a total waste of time.

    The mother of the Newtown shooter bought the guns, taught her son to shoot even though he had mental problems, so at what point do you think the mother would have turned her guns into the police to hold for her.

    Is it the rightful owner of the gun the only one that can turn the gun into the police or can anyone turn in someone elses gons in? A lot of questions to be answered.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 11:27 a.m.

    As the global financial crisis gets worse, we need the Constitutional carry laws.

    Look at what is happening.

    From NBC News we read "Visit Detroit at your own risk, police union warns".

    The police force is demoralized and underpaid/staffed to maintain order. Who is left to defend the law abiding families?

    That is where the rest of the US will eventually arrive if we keep on our current path. So, why disarm the law abiding citizens if in the near future they will need those weapons to defend themselves and their homes?

  • CHS 85 Sandy, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 11:10 a.m.


    "Have you taken the class and know what it consists of? I have."

    Me too. It was taught by a State Legislator in Davis County. The four-hour class consisted of him postulating on how President Obama is going to take away our guns and rights and countless examples of how guns save lives. Never once did he talk about how an improperly stored or maintained weapon did any actual harm. He passed around a pistol for everyone to oohh and ahhh over. He never once covered how a pistol should be secured when not in use. He never once covered how a pistol should be carried safely. He never once explained the dangers of keeping a pistol where children or mentally ill people would have access - just more evil left-wing propaganda.

    I got my CCP after the four hours. It was a waste of time. Luckily I was trained with weapons by my father growing up and then again in the Army. The class was a complete joke and an embarrassment to the State that a Legislator would use this class as a political soapbox instead of an actual teaching experience.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Feb. 27, 2013 10:51 a.m.

    "take that as a statistical certainty"

    No need for snarkiness. Just stating my experience. I would agree that this is the minority.

    "Gun discharges happen, even by people who are safe and careful" "An accident is just that, an accident."

    Not very reassuring. Logic would then dictate that the more weapons carried in public, the more "accidental" discharges there will be. Personally, I would classify the vast majority of "accidental" discharges as careless. To label them as accidents lessons the responsibility.

    I am happy to be around trained, responsible gun owners.

    I agree that the armed mall walker is arrogant. But, I saw very few gun advocates speak out against him. What I heard mostly was "It is his legal right. He did nothing wrong. People need to get used to it."

    Bedside table guns? Training will probably not fix it, you are right. But it is NOT AN ACCIDENT when the 6 year old find it and dies.
    Would you support prosecuting this guy for involuntary manslaughter?

    And this stupid person could very well be carrying his loaded weapon on a crowded train.

    Doesn't exactly give one a warm fuzzy feeling.

  • Runner Chandler, AZ
    Feb. 27, 2013 10:38 a.m.

    DN Subscriber 2 said,

    "Vermont has had Constitutional carry forever, Alaska for 10 years, Arizona for 3 and Wyoming for 2 years with ZERO problems any of those places."

    Are you kidding me? Perhaps you've heard of the Gabrielle Giffords shooting in Tucson? Not only was she shot but innocent children were also killed. Now, she is a big advocate for gun control and the elimination of concealed weapons. You see, when this affects you, which is tragically too late, then the discussion changes from the theoretical to the reality. The allowance of concealed weapons is not the rational, smart or correct thing to do. No...in fact Alaska, Arizona, Wyoming, and Vermont have it WRONG! Utah would be wise to not follow their same path.

  • Brown Honeyvale, CA
    Feb. 27, 2013 9:54 a.m.

    Well JoeBlow I guess if you "know of several" we should all take that as a statistical certainty…

    Your Fox news and GOP comments make me laugh…I could list the MSNBC, CBS, ABC and NBC comments I've heard (the incomparable Diane Feinstein and Nancy Pellosi). Perhaps we should all just all get a shotgun like the wise Joe Biden tells us.

    Gun discharges happen, even by people who are safe and careful, that is why it's called an accident. You are jumping to conclusions to assume they occurred because people were stupid. An accident is just that, an accident. Yes, there are some stupid people out there but the majority of gun owners are extremely responsible.

    I agree with the walking the mall with your rifle, once again, the one stupid person in a million. Where is the purpose in that but to show arrogance and…well I could go on. Loaded gun in the bedside table? Do you think a class is going to change these people's habits? These folks are just plain stupid and irresponsible.

    Criminally responsible??? My response to that: You are a fool if you think that will change things…

  • lex loci Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 9:41 a.m.

    It is frustrating to see how much damage the anti-gun lobby has done to the general public. KSL host Doug Wright argues that the 2nd amendment rights should be balanced by the public's right to feel comfortable in public places. This is false. You don't have a right to feel comfortable with your jury, another's speech, another's assemblage or another's religion.

    Another point - just because the law changes to "constitutional carry" doesn't mean people will start acting against social norms. Citizens already have the right to openly carry a rifle through the mall, but I've yet to see anyone do that.

    "The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Let's not be too willing to give away that right and responsibility.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Feb. 27, 2013 9:12 a.m.

    Actually Brown, I do think that many buy a gun and take a class and never go to the range.
    I know of several.
    Especially after Fox news and the GOP drills in endlessly that "Obama wants to take your gun"

    And Yes, I have taken a class, have a CWP and am no "gun hater"

    "We are all too stupid to figure it out for ourselves, right? NOT!"

    Yes Brown. Some are too stupid to figure it out. Not all, but many.

    Just last month (in one day) there were 3 separate gun discharges at 3 different gun shows injuring 5 people. Yes Brown. Some are too stupid. Not all, but too many.

    How many have their guns locked up in gun safes? How many who have kids in the house leave a loaded gun unlocked in their bedside drawer?

    I am a gun supporter. But I would come out strongly against the guy who wants to wander the mall with a rifle. Most gun supports do not.

    I believe that gun owners should be held criminally responsible when a kid gets killed with their gun. It is a huge responsibility that too many take far too lightly.

  • Brown Honeyvale, CA
    Feb. 27, 2013 8:59 a.m.

    JoeBlow please….do you really think people who take the time to take a 4 hour concealed carry class are not going to take the time to learn how to properly operate and shoot a gun???? They are just going to buy the thing (which isn't cheap btw) and never go to the range??? I have heard this "argument" from uninformed gun haters enough! Have you taken the class and know what it consists of? I have. In my home all of my family knows how to respect and shoot a gun, I teach my children at a young age the importance of respecting guns and enroll them in gun safety classes, because I feel it is important. MY children have an understanding of the purpose of guns because I have taught them…but hey, let's just pass another law telling everyone what the government thinks they should learn and then make them learn it. We are all too stupid to figure it out for ourselves, right? NOT!

  • Whoa Nellie American Fork, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 8:18 a.m.

    We do not need more anti-gun laws. We just don't. They are a result of fear mongering.

  • Moabmom Moab, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 8:15 a.m.

    Alaska, Arizona, Wyoming, and Vermont have it right. You shouldn't have to "ask permission" from the state for a Constitutional, God given right. I suspect that not wanting Utah to become a Constitutional carry state has more to do with the monies the state will lose from people "asking permission" to lawfully carry than it is about the Constitution and the right to self defense. Government priorities are always weighted to protect and enrich the government coffers.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 7:40 a.m.

    Good guys become bad guys fast by pulling the trigger in anger.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Feb. 27, 2013 4:46 a.m.

    "What is going on here? We can't protect ourselves anymore."

    Understandable Mr Jefferson. I think that most (even those liberals) would not have a problem with a gun in ones pack in the wilderness. Most would even probably think it is wise. Most would get the logic.

    But, many (me included) see that as a far cry from having people with a 4 hour gun class with no range instruction wandering around in public.

    I see no problem with guns in the home and in the wilderness. But if you want to go to the mall and the supermarket, if you want to go into public places, I would like to know that you, at a minimum, have some level of proficiency with that weapon.

    It's not too much to ask.

    Required classes? Permits? Background checks? I know. Those can be seen as restrictions on the second Amendment. And I am OK with that. Call me crazy.

    As ETT says above "My experience says it's the person least familiar with weapons who will do the most harm"

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 4:29 a.m.

    We do not need more pro gun laws. We just don't. They are a result of fear mongering.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 12:36 a.m.

    I actually support the safe harbor thing. I'm surprised something reasonable on guns was actually proposed in this state.

    @DN Subscriber 2
    "Trust the good guys. The bad guys don't obey any laws, so it does not matter to them."

    That's all well and good, but we don't have the ability to automatically know which gun-wielders are the good guys and which are the bad guys.

  • Chase Saint George, UT
    Feb. 26, 2013 9:34 p.m.

    Personal Responsibility: Get a gun safe
    Responsibility avoidance: I'm not getting a safe. I need a gun safe harbor.

    Before you start crying, yes, proactively taking guns to the safe harbor is responsible. But, enough with the reliance on state and federal government for every little problem people. Take care of yourselves! Govern yourselves! If you can afford a gun, you can afford a safe. If you can afford cell phones, data plans, TV, and internet, etc., etc., etc. - you can afford a gun safe.


    Instead, our good ole' elected officials are debating: "Should we pass a safe harbor bill...??????"

    I know there are more important issues than HB121. There just must be...

  • DN Subscriber 2 SLC, UT
    Feb. 26, 2013 9:06 p.m.

    Bad guys carry guns and don't bother with any sort of permit or training, so the current law does not disarm crazies or crooks.

    Vermont has had Constitutional carry forever, Alaska for 10 years, Arizona for 3 and Wyoming for 2 years with ZERO problems any of those places.

    What we are actually discussing is the need for a permission slip from the state to exercise the fundamental right of self defense.

    If permission slips are needed for Constitutional rights, then we should demand that citizens be protected from potentially outrageous, hateful or violence inciting speech or written comments by requiring all "journalists" and even on line writers to pass spelling and grammar tests and background checks to ensure they have no dangerous thoughts. And, of course, we also need to require Bible proficiency, and a detailed knowledge of theological doctrine of any state allowed religion before anyone can attend any church.

    Opponents are the same ones who predicted mayhem in the streets if concealed carry were allowed in 1995, and they were wrong then, and wrong again now.

    Trust the good guys. The bad guys don't obey any laws, so it does not matter to them.

  • Ett Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 26, 2013 9:08 p.m.

    Having had experience holding someone else's firearms during highly stressful family situations, I do like the idea of the safe harbor. My experience says it's the person least familiar with weapons who will do the most harm, I am in favor of the Constitutional carry bill. The same experience taught me criminals will carry concealed despite the law, honest citizens will carry in conformity with it. That seems a bit unbalanced.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Feb. 26, 2013 9:01 p.m.

    Let's hope that "constitutional carry" bill stays where it belongs -- on hold until it is stone cold dead.