Utah Scout council urges BSA to delay vote on admitting gay Scouts and leaders

Concretebo, I, like you, am also not “anti-gay.” I also feel strongly about allowing all human beings access to the same basic rights as everyone else. I am also someone who feels that the media’s and love affair with gay rights is a little over the top. I also realize, however, is that some change IS necessary if gays are going to be granted full rights such as civil unions. Turning a blind eye does not bring change. Just like with the civil rights movement in the 60’s, open, frank communication to what was happening was the catalyst for change in America. I understand your concern about over-publicizing the Boy Scouts of America’s debate regarding the inclusion of gay members, but this debate might just be what brings about the change for homosexuals that you favor.

This really isn't about gay's in the scouting program.

This is really about an organization known for teaching young men character deciding to change its fundamental character for the sake of money. How can an organization tell a young man to stand up to peer pressure about drugs and then bow to peer pressure and sell its very own soul.

Forget "how could they ever have enough separate toilets at camps", forget "how do we assign campers to tents", forget "how do we redefine the youth protection program to allow any sexual orientation when there are individuals who prefer man-boy relationships too" .

This is really comes down to an organization caving on its character for money and if it does that it will never, ever be the same. It may still exist, but it will no longer be what it always has been.

@Andrew Zaelit: You feel they should first poll the membership before proceeding? Would you have made the same argument decades ago when organizations like the Boy Scouts had to desegregate and eliminate racially segregated troops? How would that have worked out? Answer is, we would still have "separate but equal" units in scouting in parts of the country where the majority at that time were dead set against it because of personal prejudices and belief in the scriptures they used to use to justify it. The issue here isn't whether banning gays is popular or not. Rather, the question is, is it right and fair to do so?

What about the young scouts whose sexual orientation hasn't really emerged yet? Do they get to stay in scouts until they realize they're more attracted to male than to female, and then they have to drop out, or do they just stay silent and pretend to like girls so they can finish the program?

I haven't even gone though all the comments on here, just 4 pages of them. What's the big deal, and why do they need to change? I've had kids in scouting, and no where do I recall having to fill out anything asking if they were homosexual or not. Or, do they go on their camps, and when assigned to a tent, come out with "I'm homosexual" or do they ask the homosexual scouts to stand in one line and hetersexual's to stand in another? My 12 year old grandson is in scouts, and I don't know that he would know the difference, and at his age, I'm not going to explain it until he asks, or it comes up. Why do we have to put this in these boy's heads and have them question if their friend in scouting or their leader is homosexual? Isn't it enought to be aware as parents what our kids are involved in and give them our support, no matter their orientation, and just let them have fun and learn in the scouting program? What am I missing?

To NT-somewhere in Ut
Im glad you had a laugh. But the fact remains - If a parent has a gay son or daughter isn't it possible that gays themselves have a mother and a father and who is also a member of a family consisting of brothers sisters aunts and uncles? Your suggestion that I should have, included your quote that "a dog is not a cat" serves only that you muddied the waters. If you do not have a familiy member who is gay - then it seems it is you that has had a "very limited experience" and not the many who have.

"time to consider the consequences"

Yes - consequences such as the LDS and Catholic churches DROPPING all involvement with BSA?? If I am a professional scouter this means I probably lose my job pretty soon!!

Consequences of this passing:
-LDS Church doesn't withdraw from BSA because doing so would be to contrary to the latest statements about homosexuals.
-The LDS Church will put out a official statement and many Church members will accept it right way, others will not.
-Local councils will lose millions of dollars in Friends of Scouting programs but will also gain millions of dollars in support. I think the net will still be loss but they will work through it.
-Most BSA troops will eventually buy one man tents. To help every one be equal since gay youth will always be sleeping alone. Scouting would never allow two people who by definition of sexual orientation that are attracted to each other to sleep in the same tent, unless they are adult couples or parents and child(ren).
-Many parents will not allow their children to attend National and Council Scout camps. Though they allow them to attend public schools? More parents will also be at scout camp.

Light was not meant to be hid and through pain comes joy. Scouting is one the most wonderful organization to ever exist. Follow the truth for he leads the way.

Sort of to paraphrase Brigham Young "This is the place" now just get on with the change and stop complaining. As the LDS Church was willing to change so the local council should be as well. Period.

I feel sorry for the BSA they are between a rock and a hard place, pressure from the gay community via economic support from corporation donation, and pressure from the very organizations that support the BSA, ie the religious community. Its a no win situation. The BSA is trying to extend an olive branch to both sides. The problem is that large support could be loss and the organization left to cities,schools,and private organizations. I don't see the gay community, that has pushed for this, stepping forward to make sure that the organization continues if the religious community leaves the organization. The percentage of Gay and Lesbians who would join and lead is probably very small. Sad, there is a lot that scouting teaches our youth and society needs these teaching no matter who you are. Our prayers should certianly be with those charged with this decision that it can me made to garantee the longivity of this inspired organization...

I would have to say that if you have stock in BSA, it is time to sell. The conflicts that this entire issue brings up will more than drive this organization into the ground.

I just wondering was so many people are get gays? Shouldn't everyone have a chance to excel? Why so much prestige against something you really don't understand? I believe that young men should be able to participate in Scouting no matter of race, greed, color, religion or sexual orientation. This also includes BSA leaders, so long as the Scout or their leaders are not pushing the issue of sexual orientation or miss using their power to molest the Scouts. I wouldn't stop my sons from becoming a Scout just because the leader is gay. Gay men and women are HUMANS we should treat everyone equally.

NWCL INDP,

I agree with you, except I don't want a gay leader camping with the boys.

I am an active LDS male who has been involved in Scouting most of my life, achieved the Rank of Eagle, and helped dozens of others do the same. I've seen gay boys in scouting and it hasn't made any difference. In fact, the biggest difference it has made is in the lives of the gay boys. Just like straight boys, they get the opportunity to learn things about their city, country, environment, family, others, and selves. And, they learn to do, becoming men and leaders.

I not only see nothing wrong with it, but see it as a great thing in all of these boys lives. I encourage it and encourage those afraid or hateful of gay people to reach out and learn how similar gay people are to you.

As I learned, having been in the Boy Scouts. Stand tall and do what's right. Integrity is important.

@grandpa Dave

The answer to your question is really very simple not everyone agrees what your self serving definition of what it means to be morally straight no matter how loud you yell it.

To clarify about Sandusky's kind of crime: His crime has nothing to do with his sexual preference. He's no doubt as straight as he can possibly be. It's a crime of power and of violence, pure and simple. He is a bigger person, being powerful enough to exhort a smaller, younger, less powerful person to do something he didn't want to do, to use trickery, bribery, threats, and brute force, to get the power he wanted. He did that because he could. He used sex. He could have pulled out their hair or done other things, made them clean the showers with a toothbrush. But that wasn't his choice. Only he knows why, him and God. But it has nothing to do with what you would think.

Just thinking here, some folks on this board are discussing yesterday's virtues v. today's, and giving examples. Well, things have changed, and there are comparisons aplenty to the "olden days", especially, I noted, a couple to Biblical times. So, how about--wives and concubines, for many kings and rulers; slaves, including some being taken as wives and concubines after victory; marriages through trickery; arranged marriages; marriages to cement agreements between royalty; how's that for examples? And polygamy...back to the wives and concubines, but many of the OT marriages were multiple ones. Now, those were obviously all right, from a divine perspective at the time, just as it was here in the early Church. So who's to say, since we do not know all that will be revealed yet--check the ninth article of Faith--that there is not something more about some of these things left to learn of? I am unwilling to say, since the word of the Lord is dynamic, and not my dynamic, but His, that there may be more to hear on this when we are ready to listen.

atl134, sexual abuse of children is overwhelmingly a male thing. The experience from the Girl Scouts says very little, since women, gay or straight, almost never abuse children.

I would be willing to wager that the BSA board discussed this upcoming meeting with the sponsoring organizations before they decided to call for one. Governing boards do go into such things without consulting with the highest stakeholders prior to announcing things to the public.

As was said, scouting is about boys. It is ALL about boys, not adults, and not as complicated as the adults are trying to make it. The boys, who are the story here, simply want to be Boy Scouts, just like generations before them have wanted to be, and do what they all dreamed of doing, no doubt fueled by tales told by big brothers and friends who told stories of their exciting adventures. What they know of gay or straight or anything surrounding those issues, we don't know--and no doubt it varies from boy to boy. But if they want to be Scouts, we do know it's a really big deal to each one, and whatever is said in these comments or any other, or in any article or discussion is immaterial to a boy who simply looks forward to being a Tenderfoot and earning his first badge.

Here is the new Scout Oath...

On a whim I will do my best, until it suits me otherwise
To do my duty to Science and my country
and to obey the Scout Law, or whatever;
To help other people, sometimes;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight-ish.

BTW, Oath means...

Oath
A solemn promise, often invoking a divine witness, regarding one's future action or behavior.
A sworn declaration that one will tell the truth, esp. in a court of law.

I have been involved with scouting for over 30 years. I am totally against the Boy Scouts changing the stand on this issue. The scout oath states "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country ... To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and MORALLY STRAIGHT. Now the world would have them believe that being morally straight is no longer required. I would refuse to allow any scout to be put in a situation where he might be endanger with other boys that are gay ... Or with a leader who they are to look up to and respect that is gay. HONOR is what scouting is about. I hope and pray that the leaders of the BSA will do the right thing and the honorable thing in keeping and maintaining the standards, beliefs, and OATH of the scouts. Don't let us and millions of scouts down!!!!!

I certainly will pray for the leadership to take additional time to ponder what is a Huge decision. In my personal view I am opposed to the change; not for the reasons many might suspect such as predatory activities by gay adult leaders. My opposition to having gay youth leaders is that by virtue of accepting them we then accept the behavior, or make the behavior right in the eyes of impressionable youth. Im very aware we have had gay leaders forever, and they have served well, however we have not had openly gay leaders and there is a clear difference.

I have been involved in Scouting for many years and have 'suggested' to Church leaders on numerous occasions that it is time we disassociate with Boy Scout of America. They have already done a good job of removing God from the Scouting program. There are many Scouting activities that involve women Scout leaders and troops allowing girls. The problem is not with females per se, but that a big part of Scouting is to teach boys how to be men. I dare say women really don't have this ability and girls need to be taught to be women. Other issues surround allowing gay leaders. Gay boys in Scouts is generally not a problem as they tend to 'come out' when they are older. Boy Scouts is simply opening a can of worms in an attempt to appear tolerant and politically correct.

@oldcoug
So how is your insisting that the BSA (a private organization) maintain your views on this issue any less forcing your moral values on them then those that want them to change it. maybe based on your argument you should let them decide.

for those that are concerned about pedophilia you need to be more concerned about the straight scout leaders being alone with your child since straight people are more likely to actually commit acts of pedophilia according to the APA and CDC's research.

I find it interesting that so many people would be so upset that spring street would dare suggest the world is not getting worse.

@cinci man

according to the center for disease control (CDC) research teenagers are actually waiting longer to have sex.
The bureau of criminal statistics support spring streets statements on crime and if you read their website you will see what they have actually done to improve reporting not hinder it.
according to the CDC research alcohol consumption ticked up about 1% recently so you are kind of right there but I don't think i would call it "out of control."

which leads me to ask why are people so desperate to believe the world is getting worse when reality just doe not support such claims? Is it about the perceived lose of power religions believed they had over society? what is it?

For those who think that this would allow individual scouting units to decide. I believe it's sponsoring organizations that would decide. For example, the LDS church currently modifies the scouting program for the packs, troops, teams, and crews that their wards sponsor. This change wouldn't allow individual LDS packs, troops, teams, and crews to decide for themselves on the issue, it allows the LDS church to decide and/or modify that policy for its units as it sees fit.

BTW, I'm for waiting and discussing more as this seems hasty and has caught folks off guard.

Why do so many of you assume that because a young man or adult is gay he must be committing moral sin? Go read the Mormons and Gays website, and see what your leaders are saying. It's high time we get off our holier than thou attitudes and stop excluding people who are "less worthy than we."

Coach Biff,

Do tell.

It is easy to throw such words around. Please back it up. Inform us all of the official Church position on openly gay men serving in Church leadership positions. Then please inform us how the members of Bishoprics and YM Presidencies do NOT oversee the activities of Scouting, etc.

If I am misinformed, I would gladly welcome being set straight (no pun intended).

Several people are worried about what is going to happen to the BSA's funding when this change goes through and everyone who opposes it stops donating. From a financial perspective, this is exactly the right moment for the BSA to enact this change. For decades people have been feeling a change in their hearts as they recognize that our old prejudices against gay people are wrong. The support for LGBT rights has passed the tipping point, and the number of people still holding on to old wrong traditions will only dwindle in the future. From a moral standpoint, the BSA should have made this change a long time ago because we have known for a long time that gay men are less likely than straight men to abuse children and the practice of excluding gay youth only damages kids and perpetuates harmful attitudes in the kids who participate. From a financial standpoint, though, now is precisely the right moment for the Scouts to make this change.

Joining a non-government, private organization is not, nor has it ever been, a right. Joining the scouts is a privilege granted by the leaders/members of the organization. It cannot be legislated. I am not a homophobe, nor do I have any antipathy toward gays, but please don't force your moral values on others. If you don't like the views and values of the organization, why would you worry about joining it or argue for anyone's right to join it?

@Joan Watson

Your statement made me laugh: Homosexuals have parents, sisters and brothers, grandparent, aunts and uncles, nephews and nieces.

You could have added that "a dog is not a cat"

By the way, it is your limited "experience" with homosexual men that has caused you to take a very narrow and naive view of what constitutes gay or homosexuality.

Nevertheless, the LDS Church will continue to invite all to Come Unto Christ. It will not lower its standards. Ever. The writing is on the wall, however, with the gay agenda and the fact that such agenda-driven groups take great pleasure in imposing themselves on the values of organizations like the BSA and others, and because the Church will not bend to ever-evolving worldly "standards," the Church and the BSA will part ways.

And, the Church will not skip a beat, contrary to objectives of it opposition.

So excited for this change. In my LDS ward, we are supposed to encourage gay youth and adults to participate. The Boy Scouts should be the same way. It's hard to let go of the traditions and prejudices of the past (common theme throughout the Book of Mormon). It's time for us to shed some of our own sinful ideas and be more Christlike.

Our time will come... soon.

For now, we will support the fight for equality for our gay and lesbian fellow-citizens.

JoeBlow -
While I hear your point about individual troops deciding how to set their own admission criteria, my question is what will become of the funding that comes from BSA registration that goes to the national BSA? The LDS church covers registration fees for their scouts...those funds go to the national BSA, and are redistributed to all BSA troops, right? So while individual troops may decide their own admission standards, their registration funds go toward all troops. Therefore, by association with the BSA, you need to have clear understanding of the organizational goals you are associating with.

That said, i still anticipate a growing level of inclusion and sensitivity from the LDS church...However, rushing to a decision without discussion is not the best decision. Collect feedback, work WITH each group, not in secret, and make a decision that serves the collective whole.

Perception is a dangerous path to take, but it is certainly interesting that the national BSA board is so far down this road without ever seeking feedback from individual counsels. Our country would be better off if we listened and considered what others have to say, particularly those we disagree with

Perhaps a better understanding of homosexual persons wotuld be helpful. My experience with homopsexuals men is that they seek a gay partner their own age whom hey fall in love with and wish to have a life together. They do not prey on young boys and girls as do pediphiles. They contribute much to the beautification and upkeep of their homes and neighborhoods. They are productive contributors in their employment/careers, communities. They seek to live a life of integrity. Homosexuals have parents, sisters and brothers, grandparent, aunts and uncles, nephews and nieces.

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Morally Straight is the one we need to focus on here.

I feel like everyone mentioning pedophiles as a reason to criticize homosexual involvement in Boy Scouts is forgetting that lesbians exist and that the Girl Scouts already has camp counselors with same-gender attractions at their camps. They seem to be doing just fine with that.

Gracie - the athiest group can want it all they please, this is the BSA, a private organization, making public their decision to review their policy regarding membership. Nobody is forcing them to change and in fact they have won court cases in the past supporting their decision to ban gay scouts and scout leaders.

And has been stated, time and time again, nothing is being changed in the Scout Oath. It is simply the assumptions made by some regarding the wording of the oath that is now in question. The BSA makes it clear what the meaning behind their oath is, and it does not now, nor has it ever been, their stance that "morally straight" meant no gays.

I was wondering whether anyone here had heard the same appended news release (radio) that I caught, but only the last part. What I heard was that, now, an atheist group also wants the same considerations for them that homosexuals are seeking. Then what about doing one's "duty to God"? How many parts of the Scout Oath need to disappear to satisfy all the possible agitating groups of the coming moments?

Hostess Cake is going out of business because it failed to adapt to society's evolving values (mothers started valuing healthier food for their children). Any religion or organization who does not stay up with our society's values will also fail or become irrelevant. The majority of Americans no longer tolerate discrimination against homoesexual inidividuals. The BSA realizes that, but as we can see, Utahns are a little behind the curve (which often happens because the bubble here).

So what does "gay" mean? Does it mean someone is attracted to the same sex? That he's having romantic relationships with the same sex? Does it mean he's having sexual relationships with the same sex? I was a boy scout and I discovered years later that I was attracted to men. I don't call myself "gay" because I have never and will never have have a romantic relationship with anyone other than women to whom I find myself genuinely attracted, and sexual relations only after heterosexual marriage (preceded by full disclosure).

So what is the right thing to do for potential scouts and scout leaders like me who have an attraction they can't help having, but who are free from any inappropriate actions with others and unshakably committed to remaining chaste? Welcome them with open and loving arms! In all things judge these boys and leaders by their commitments and actual conduct and not by what your stereotypical imagination cooks up. Give them a chance and show them the same love and trust and hold them to the same standard of conduct as your would expect from men and boys without this condition.

@Claudio

It depends on who your channels are.

And when the scouts go to a district/council/national event?

"70+% of the chartered organizations in the BSA are sponsored by religious organizations that believe homosexuality to be a sin. If the BSA turns its back on these organizations it would be an irreparable mistake."

The troops can decide on their own whether they want to allow gays in the troop or the leadership position.

I suggest that you all calm down and give your local scout troop your input. They, not the BSA will be making the decisions that affect YOU.

NO ONE is forcing anything on your troop. No one is forcing your church sponsored troop to do anything they are opposed to.

Let me put it in a way that some may be able to understand.

The federal government (BSA) allows each state (chartered troop) to make their own choice.

See how "right" that is?

A Scientist,

You are alarmingly misinformed. Try again.

Mukkake— “People who think this way lack an practical understanding of how the world actually functions.”
I’m well aware that homosexuals are all around us but is it “practical” or wise to have a gay man take boys on a camping trip? Would you want Sandusky to take your boys on a camping trip?

JoeBlow—Gay men at girls’ camps isn’t the issue. You’re just trying to muddy the water.

Isrred—Sandusky was gay. He was messing with boys and he was a man. Go to the dictionary.

Claudio—I have been a priesthood adviser at a girl’s camp. There were lots of adult female leaders around for all the activities and I didn’t sleep in the camp or cabins. I slept in my van a hundred yards away from the camp. It’s your logic that is flawed.

@isrred,

Fortunately, almost all interaction between teachers and students is seen by dozens of other people at the same time. Thus, any potential danger surrounding homosexual teachers can be mitigated by having many other people present.

The difference with Boy Scouts is that depending on the size of the scout troop, how many scouts show up to any given activity, and the nature of the activities(such as camping) there is increased risk if a homosexual person was a leader, for that leader to be alone with a single Bo Scout or a very small group.

There is strength in numbers, which is why we dont need to worry quite as much in the school system.

Again, it is all about Scout safety. We all just want the Scouts to be safe. It is our duty to protect them.

Facts are facts: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stopped its affiliation with the Girl Scouts based on the defemination of the girls. It was left to individual families to participate but overall the LDS Church doesn't support the Girl Scouts. If this passes then the standards that are set by the Church will be diminished.

Again as someone said that the new website was not to get gays and lesbians into the Church but those who don't want to live the lifestyle of Pagan and others. If they are living the lifestyle they will be REQUIRED to for go that lifestyle or not enter into discussions with the LDS Church. Some of you really need to read that website and the information provided. It isn't for ALL gays and lesbians.

The other is that it is already pretty much a for gone conclusion for many in authority that the LDS Church will disassociate itself with the BSA. If you don't know it then you'll be surprised. The LDS has 1/3 of all scout units in the BSA. Just think what that will do to them if the LDS Church leaves.

70+% of the chartered organizations in the BSA are sponsored by religious organizations that believe homosexuality to be a sin. If the BSA turns its back on these organizations it would be an irreparable mistake. And yes, many of us believe it is a sin. Therefore, to us morally straight would mean morally "straight". And no, I don't think this makes me "backwards" or "evil" or "misinformed". I have gay friends. We get along. But I would not feel comfortable sending my son on an overnight camp with them as leaders. Just like I would not feel comfortable sending my daughter on an overnight with male leaders. This is not to say that I think just because he is gay he is going to molest my son just as I would not assume a man would my daughter. But I would still not be comfortable with it. Allowing gay leaders into the BSA is not the same as abolition. Give me a break.

The LDS Church already allows openly gay (but not "practicing") men to serve in leadership and Bishopric positions. These positions already have supervisory responsibility over young men's organizations, and they go on overnight camps with the boys in their groups.

For the LDS Church to bristle at this move by the BSA, and to oppose it or threaten withdrawal of support, would be silly and hypocritical.

@Chris B

So using your logic, we cannot have public school teachers anymore because regardless of their sexual orientation they will be in charge of students they could potentially be "Attracted" to and victimize.

Re: Riccar

Well since you heard it on the radio, it must be true! After all, the rhetoric on the radio is NEVER hyperbolic and statistics are never made out of thin air.

Just FYI, the same claims were maid when they desegregated the military. It didn't come crashing down then either.

Nor will allowing gays to be in the Boy Scouts destroy the organization.

@isrred,

At the very least, Sandusy was bisexual. Yes he was a pedophile. He was also gay(or bisexual).

The definition of homosexual is being sexually attracted to someone of your own sex. Clearly, Sandusky showed that he was that.

I am not suggesting by any means that all pedophiles are homosexual. Only those that are attracted to members of their same gender. Like Sandusky.

The Boy Scouts is a great organization that has the safety of scouts #1.

I am simply pointing out the damamge that was done by one homosexual(Sandusky). I know many great homosexual people. However, Boy scouts are boys. And we just need to protect those boys from people who potentially are sexually attracted to them.

It is a sad but true part of life today unfortunately.

I hope the Boy Scouts can continue to build great leaders and protect the boys.

Re: JSB

The LDS Church requires men (priesthood holders) to be present at all times during Girls Camp. So is the LDS Church unable to grasp your logic as well? Or is your logic flawed?

Re: JP71

If I "hear through channels" that Thomas Monson is a communist, does that make it true as well?

Just heard on the radio that 17% of Marines will pull out of the Military if women are allowed on the front lines. Will there be enough female warriors to fill that 17%? It is doubtful. The same is true with the BSA. My guess is that there are a lot of gays shouting for joy over the BSA conssesions. Yet a very small number will actually join scouting; they are just happy that they shook things up. While a large number of youth will probably be pulled out of Scouting. (The Baptist church has already said that they will.) So the bottom line is, there will be far fewer boys helped by a good program. That is sad because in our challenging world our youth need all the help they can get. Perhaps the gays should just start their own troops.

This is a delicate situation. Personally, I do not think a boy should be denied membership based on his sexual orientation; provided that he follows the same scout law that all other boys are expected to follow.

Too often the problem is - is that in order to be all inclusive, standards must be lowered. The president now wants women to participate in combat. Supposedly women will have to pass the same level of physical ability as the men, but no doubt that will change in order to achieve prescribed quotas. Such has happened before. And so, there is the chance that standards will eventually need to be altered in order to ensure that everyone can be 'the same'.

Progress is not about changing requirements so that more people can 'belong', it is about improving ourselves and reaching for higher standards; not eliminating them.

"We see recently from the Penn State incident, the damage that can be done by a single homosexual child predator."

Sandusky was not gay. Sandusky was a sickening child predator and a pedophile. He was after all, married to a woman for many decades. Trying to imply that all pedophiles are homosexual is completely ignorant.

Coach Biff
I don't believe the authors intended sexual preference to be a consideration in that quote either way.

"To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open." Seems self explanatory to me: honest and open with who you are and how you interact with others.

"You should respect and defend the rights of all people." Pretty clear -- "all people"...sounds inclusive to me.

"Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs." - Don't swear or (as my scoutmaster used to put it) 'cause a ruckus' and as for the religious beliefs, note it doesn't distinguish which religion, only that you're faithful in your own religions beliefs.

"The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance." - Which of the scout values do you feel make reference either way to who you or your scout leaders are sexually interested in - gay or straight? I don't recall any references either way, but maybe you had a different scout handbook than me...

Values of scouting: good conduct, respect of others, and honesty (also taken from BSA handbook).

There have always been gay kids in the Boy Scouts, had sponsors not sought to discriminate against these boys life would have continues as it was. We had three kids in my troop who displayed easily recognizable leanings in the direction of homosexuality and I can't think of anything any of them may have done to cause problems for anyone else. Few boys that age are all that involved in anything sexually to begin with and they certainly aren't recruiting other kids to join them. Lift the ban, which like all other bans is useless only bringing bad publicity to the instigator of the ban. Scouts are not doing too well as it is with kids that spend every non sleeping minute out of school playing video games, let's be inclusive not otherwise.

"Gay men should not be taking young men camping for the same reason that heterosexual men don't take young women camping. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?"

So can gay men take young women camping? Just wondering...

The LDS church does not need the Boy Scouts, the Boy Scouts need the LDS church. I have three Eagle Scouts and as long 'morally straight' continues to mean something, it will have my support. If the Boy Scouts cave in to abdicating a belief in God and His laws, it will cease to exist as an influential organization for building young men.

I have a question for those of you who are more familiar with how the LDS church runs scouting.

I assume not all of the wards have their own scout program, perhaps the average is one scout program per stake. I don't know. So is it possible that, if the BSA were to make this change, that the church might just leave it to the individual wards to decide what to do with their local programs and some will keep it while others will not?

We see recently from the Penn State incident, the damage that can be done by a single homosexual child predator. No, obviously the majority of gays are decent people.

However, it only takes one to do seriously damange to many young people, as we saw from Sandusky.

I hope we can find a way to include all, but protect our children.

The LDS Church should split with BSA and set up their own program. They could sue for some of the infrastructure of the organization (camps) and then both YM and YW would have access to these camps. Gay LDS youth could then participate alongside all other youth... under the guidance of LDS church leadership. Costs would drop (no six-figure salaries). Simplify the awards systems (fewer badges). Couples could be called to administer/serve in all the camps. LDS public school teachers and seminary teachers could be tapped for various summer camp programs.

Like BYU, we should go independent!

JSB:
[Why is that so hard for people to grasp?]

Because it is so unbelievably ignorant and backward to think that way. People who think this way lack an practical understanding of how the world actually functions. I'm gonna tell you a huge secret: If you've ever used a public shower at a campsite, gym, school, public pool etc. you have showed with gay and bisexual individuals.

It's that simple. The only change here is that we will allow qualified gay scout leaders, and boys who need scouting just as much as straight kids, to not have to lie and feel ashamed anymore.

The simple fact of the matter is simple: Scouting is already filled with gays, straights, and bisexuals. Safety has nothing to do with sexuality. The safety of a scout should be treated the same way whether the scout leader claims to be gay or straight.

Plus, many pedophiles get married and have kids. Just because someone is married doesn't mean they are straight. They could be gay and hiding it, bisexual, or straight but with pedophilia towards boys.

Yo pienso que hay que tomar mas tiempo, y ver en reflexión, pensar que haría Sir Lord Baden Powell, si estuviera vivo hoy, porque él es el fundador de este gran movimiento para los que creemos en Dios. Desde Chile mi apoyo por seguir con los mismos valores de siempre como Scout.

Ok, UTAuley, I'll bite. Do you think this includes or precludes the practice of homosexuality? Do you think the authors of this statement intended to define homosexuality as "virtue"?

I will not contribute to the Boys Scouts anymore. If everyone decides not to contribute, let see how long they'll last. They should the the message if their funding is crippled or stopped.

Coach Biff - From the BSA Scout Handbook:

...and morally straight.
To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.

aunt lucy - So I ask Pagan, Two for Flinching, and others who argue this equality to all logic does your logic include polygamy and other more progressive ideas such as the lady who wanted to marry her cat?

?

So, allowing gays into the boy scouts allows people to marry their cat? What an absurd comparison.

1) There have been cases of child abuse WITH a gay ban in place. So the claim that gays will join the boyscouts only to abuse them has now been proven false.

2) If the Boy Scouts of America really is about supporting the boys, why are they choosing to ignore gay ones?

3) You cat has no factual ability to give consent.

@aunt lucy
"does your logic include polygamy "

Sure why not? I see no reason why Joseph Smith should've been persecuted the way he was though I suppose you disagree. As long as everyone in it is happy with the arrangement *shrugs* whatever floats their boat. Of course polyandry would have to be legalized along with it, fair is fair.

"and other more progressive ideas such as the lady who wanted to marry her cat?"

Cats can't consent so she's out of luck.

@Riccar
"As a society most things are much worse in 2013 than they were 50 years ago. "

Psychologists note that there's a way the brain works that makes people look upon the past with rose-colored glasses. Need I remind you that 50 years ago we had race riots?

Ernest T.

With your latest limited talking points, I fully agree. In those specific areas, society is better. And I think it is important to remember more of the Church's policy on same gender attraction and all other sexual activity. Sex is reserved ONLY for marriage and that is defined by the church as 1 man and 1 woman. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the church's implementation of a tolerance for gays in leadership as well as in scouting is that the oath's commitment to 'morally straight' will continue to be 'sex is reserved for marriage, defined as between 1 man and 1 woman'. Whether heterosexual or homosexual, society, especially children, are affected negatively by non chaste lifestyles. Society may one day have families defined by many men and many women being together and kids having no need to have or know who their parents are. So far, that has not been as challenging as it may become in the future. For health, legal, emotional, and eternal reasons, families are important.

I have heard through channels that if this happens that the LDS Church is going to pull out of BSA and just expand the young men program.

@md
"I think your idea that our society is in a positive point in history is warped."

The amount of war around the world is practically at historical lows, as are other things like slavery, while the rights of women are at all time highs, as well as life expectancy, standard of living, and other things. I think we're doing pretty good.

@AZRods
"God is being taken out of our schools, our pledges, prayer out of school"

As a Christian, I'm glad God isn't in our public schools (by the way, kids can still pray, they just can't be a distraction during class nor can the school lead classes in prayers) because that's how we can have religious freedom, by not establishing a religion.

@concretebo
"I just do not think these things need to be public."

So you never hold hands with your opposite-gender significant other or anything to show who you're with? (Or if you're single like me, do you plan on never doing anything like that should you get in a relationship?)

...I have serious questions about how such a sharp and immediate change in structure of the BSA will be managed, and who will manage it. If the LDS church is paying registration fees to the national BSA, who then distribute to troops who don't represent LDS values (which I believe includes sensitivity and inclusion), then why not just start the LDS boy scouts, and keep funds under your control? It would be far more cost effective. Then run it the way you want.

Will the chartered troop get to decide standards for admission? Will the Counsel? The Greater Salt Lake Counsel is the largest counsel, yet was not included in the discussions and were blindsided by this. I'm confident the LDS church was made aware of the national intentions prior to the GSL Counsel, due to GAs on the national board.

I am absolutely in favor of postponing the vote until the details can be understood and discussed. There are so many questions beyond just sexual preference that should be discussed with the same sensitivity and attention. Rushing this decision will not help progress, and could create future problems and fractured relationships.

Gay men should not be taking young men camping for the same reason that heterosexual men don't take young women camping. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?

I have been involved as a youth leader in scouting in the salt lake valley for the past 7 years. I have mixed feelings on scouting, but with regards to the current discussion, let me take a different approach.

The LDS church is making wonderful strides in reaching out to members of the gay community, and should/will continue to do so.

If the decision were simply about inclusion, it would be a different story. However, there are major questions with national funding that need to be addressed. All BSA registration fees (which are paid for by the LDS church) go to the national BSA fund. Friends of scouting stays within the counsel, and troop fundraisers go to the troop. If the national BSA is claiming that each individual charter gets to decide, how are the national funds distributed? Will there be troops that set their own standards that are far different than the LDS church (and i am not speaking of sexual preference specifically)...

@ aunt lucy

Yes, equality and freedom should be for all. I have no problem with polygamy, so long as it is a union between consenting adults (not children). I do not support people being able to marry animals or objects for the same reason. A cat is not a consenting adult and can't sign a marriage license.

I don't know about other organizations, but if the suggested change passes I doubt the LDS Church will disaffiliate with the BSA. They'll complain and take advantage of religious exceptions proposed, but none of the affiliated scouting programs will be as effective without the BSA and they know it.

The BSA affiliation helps with getting local chapters access to sites and resources, and while an independent LDS scouting program might do well in the Intermountain West, LDS scouting programs outside this region will be at a disadvantage. Even LDS young women's programs take advantage of many of the resources the LDS Church's affiliation with the BSA provides.

And after a few years of having to go to Jamborees and other scouting events where there are other chapters attending that don't discriminate, the LDS Church's scouting program will realize that nothing has changed. Just like now, you won't even be able to tell, and shouldn't ask/care/worry, who is gay or straight.

Besides, a non-BSA Eagle Scout award will be worth less than a BSA one.

@ S. Andrew Zaelit Rush? You call this a rush? It's about 50 years late in coming. To exclude gay and transgender kids and adults from participating is so wrong. It is about time for BSA to do the right thing. Fear and ignorance has prevented this for way too long.

What is the meaning of morally straight? Inquiring minds want to know. As an Eagle Scout, I always presumed that it meant just what it sounds like. If homosexuals want to create an organization which supports their worldview, then by all means go for it. We have no "right" to join any organization just because we choose it. Why this is such a hard concept is beyond me.

The writing is on the wall, folks. Time to expand Duty to God and say goodbye to BSA. No rechartering or Friends of Scouting! BSA will die on the vine without LDS money. Shame...but the work goes on.

Most comments regarding this article have focused on the commenter's opinions on whether or not it is a good idea for the BSA to revise its policy regarding participation in Boy Scouts by homosexuals. However, I think they are missing the deeper subtext of the article, which is the real dilemma that the Utah BSA Councils find themselves in.

As long as the principles of Youth Protection, Safe Scouting, and Two-Deep Leadership are maintained, the proposed policy change would not result in any change in how scouting functions on an operational level, other than to provide development and growth opportunities for youth and leaders who would have otherwise been excluded.

Conversely, the vast majority of Chartered Organizations sponsoring local BSA units in these Councils are religious organizations that each has definite moral standards, and these Councils would not survive if these religious organizations severed their ties with the BSA (not a foregone conclusion, but certainly a possibility). Even if these churches all continued to sponsor the BSA, there are many here who may stop supporting Friends of Scouting, which is the lifeblood of these Councils.

This is probably why the Great Salt Lake Council is expressing concern.

The end is near.

When the Catholics, Methodists, and the LDS start their own organizations, the BSA will then be free to lower it's standards in order to get back their precious Corporate Sponsorships.

Maybe a few billionaires could establish an endowment for the Scouts and tell the Corporate dictators to take a hike.

The LDS church invited them to return but not to continue their lifestyle. Jesus invited all to come unto Him by faith, repentance and baptism.--- not to continue their former lifestyle, but to show their change by keeping the commandments.

Cinci Man: Congrats on your eagle scouts.
Being gay doesn't mean a person is bad, unchaste, untrue, dishonest, etc.
My main point is society is improving. It's better than it's ever been. Just over a generation ago many Americans were in favor of segregation. Less than 200 years ago many Americans believed one person could actually own another person.
Hopefully in another generation, gays will no longer be fired, beaten and treated differently. We can keep getting better. If the scouts want to ban gays, that's their decision but people simply cannot claim treating gays humanely is ruining society.

I do not know how so many are saying that things are so much better now. They must be too young to see the past. As a society most things are much worse in 2013 than they were 50 years ago. Some people just think that everything has to be fair. If things were meant to be fair we would have all been born that way. We were not; therefor we accept what we are and appropriately adapt. I have always loved athletics, but because of limitations, I have not been able to participate; therefore I watch rather than play. There have been some sad times and I've said "Why me?', but I have never expected others to lose their freedoms to make room for me. There have been sexual abuse cases in the BSA in the past. Boys have grown up suffering for years. This just opens the door for this to happen more often.

Ernest T
The world is a much better place in so many ways. And allowing those with same sex attraction into Boy Scouts as leaders is not a problem for me. I would have a problem with any scout leader who is sleeping around, involved in porn, doing illegal drugs, drinking to excess, swearing, disrespecting property, robbing, stealing, cheating, or any other unsavory thing. But I also know we are all imperfect and need to strive to be better, no matter who we are. And I am not so naive to think that the world is getting better in the areas I mentioned above. More politicians are corrupt, more teachers are corrupt, more religious leaders are corrupt, more in Hollywood are corrupt (especially morally), more sports 'heroes' are NOT role models, and more people are blind to the wickedness that needs to be quelled. I raised 4 Eagle Scouts, and they found their greatest role models as Scout Leaders. I hope that can continue for my grandsons. I pray we can preserve that ideal. Honest, True, Chaste... Scout Leaders are always a good thing, no matter what their attractions are.

The BSA and Councils over the years have been hit with lawsuits on abuse, whether leaders or the members. I am sure it is a sensitive subject for them, sort of like the various churches, organizations, and schools and universities that have been hit with law suits dealing with abuse issues. It may not be the right direction but I am sure the national BSA and chartered groups have looked long into the answers.

This definitely brought up discussion quickly and in large numbers on the various media forums. With gender as an issue with the military, in the workplace, and now with the BSA, big decisions have to be made. The Scout law and oath have a duty to God and morality in almost every word the creed has in it. The BSA may not be looking at the values of Lord Baden Powell. Will Eagle Scouts still put on their resume that they are Eagle Scouts? Will the Friends of Scouting dollars go away?

This is the time to prepare to meet God and people have to make choices with their agency. Our nation is for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Sin never was happiness.

"I am not anti-gay. I just do not think these things need to be public.
I think whatever a person does behind their bedroom door is a private matter.
No reason to publicize ,I also believe in civil unions for insurance coverage and
inheritance purposes but, again Does not to be aired out all over the place.."

Yeah exactly! I'm not anti-heterosexual I just don't think they need to be so public about it. Those darn kids going to their school dances flaunting their heterosexuality in everyone's face. And hey I even think they should be able to get married for insurance and other privilege but they don't need to air it all over the place--the audacity of some people sending out wedding announcements and inviting hundreds of people to celebrate with them in airing it out all over the place. And then they even have the nerve to put pictures of their families on their desk at work! Why must some people just "air it out all over the place"?

Have any of you who claim the world is getting worse actually studied past civilizations?
I challenge any of you to name a past civilization better than our current one.
Read the Old Testament, women were possessions, slavery and murder was accepted. I don't even need to mention what the Romans, Greeks, Huns, Khans, etc were like.
Seriously, gays aren't ruining the world. People have been gay since the beginning of recorded history and yet here we are, safe and secure. They haven't ruined anything.

Some people simply need to take a look at things in perspective. The world is better then ever before. Much better.

We have weak leaders who want to change the Scout Oath and Law.

I'm sure if they could vote on it they would change God's Laws as well.

Yes, God loves us all, but he created his own laws that we can choose to obey or not.

Boy Scouts, Please Stand tall and honor your Scout Oath.

Everyone, Please honor God's laws.

So I ask Pagan, Two for Flinching, and others who argue this equality to all logic does your logic include polygamy and other more progressive ideas such as the lady who wanted to marry her cat? Just where do you draw the line or is there no line? The same argument can be made for these other concepts as well. Does your interpretation of equality really include all? Is it just a free for all-fair for all world with no boundaries? I will stick with God's boudaries and continue to be an advocate for his commandments.

Since chartered organizations can still choose their own rules of membership and leadership in their units, I'm wondering what the ultimate concerns are. According to BSA press release, "chartered organizations that oversee and deliver Scouting would accept membership and select leaders consistent with each organization's mission, principles, or religious beliefs."

There are chartered organizations or potential chartered organizations, including many churches, that would prefer to include individuals currently excluded, particularly gay parents. And the values of Scouting would definitely strengthen society if we could broaden the audience of youth who see those values. In Scouts, precise definitions of belief in god and morally straight are left to families and their churches.

One caution, however, would be that there should still be a strong policy against individuals using Scouting as a platform for non-Scouting agendas.

spring street

Perhaps the reason the numbers are low in the specific areas you mention is because other areas like teen sexual activity combined with contraception are way up. And I have to question your 'crime rates are low' statement. They can cook the books to look however they want. But the facts show that more kids and adults are using illegal drugs than ever before. The statistics are alarming. But they ONLY affect the crime rate when people are arrested for the crimes. It's illegal to text while driving in most places, but it doesn't affect the crime rates unless people are arrested for those crimes. Statistics show an alarming rate of speeders, drug users, drinkers, and texters (all of which kill people) are way up. Combine that with the bazillions of people having sex outside of marriage and society is certainly not as rosy as the picture you paint. But there are many good things in the world that ARE good too. I see those too.

This is not about sexual orientation. It is about morals. Very few believe that being homosexual is wrong. Many believe that acting upon those desires is wrong. One is a choice the other is not. if every natural tendency we have as humans were deemed morally good and legal, then the world would be in a lot of trouble.

The most troubling point of this article, and the articles only point ironically enough is involvement. National did not do its due diligence to reach out and poll it Chartering Organizations in the Councils, Districts, and Units. We are where the rubber meets the road. The Chartering Organization's is where the full impact of this decision will be felt. Shame on National for this rush. Regardless of the outcome the best way to proceed is to stop, poll registered members, tabulate the results, then proceed. The opinion of the registered members are the only ones that really matter. National needs to ignore those who have no verifiable interest in their decision. No more of this ready fire aim business.

I am not anti-gay. I just do not think these things need to be public.
I think whatever a person does behind their bedroom door is a private matter.
No reason to publicize ,I also believe in civil unions for insurance coverage and
inheritance purposes but, again Does not to be aired out all over the place..

The Utah Scout council appears to be very open about their motivations, and they're right, Scouting is about the boys.

I personally hope that they will find a way to resolve their concerns so that this issue can be addressed. I'm tired of this issue being so prevalent among young people. It shouldn't be.

It'd be nice to have an organization that doesn't pretend it doesn't exist, but doesn't glorify the issue either. Let's get back to teaching boys to do their duty to God and their country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep themselves physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

Given the context, I can understand they need time to fully contemplate what this impact will have on the concept of being morally straight, but it's a good debate to have...

I am so dismayed at how unkind so many readers of this newspaper still are. Recently, the LDS Church releases a new website invited gay members of the church to return. It's also an invitation for the rest of the members to be less judgmental and more accepting. Unfortunately, that isn't apparently happening.

Now, the BSA is considering accepting gay scouts and leaders into their troops. I suspect this sudden change may have resulted from some input from LDS headquarters in Salt Lake City. Let's think a minute here. The church has a website that tells gay members they should feel welcome at all church meetings, yet one of the biggest programs for young men that is supported by the church still bans them from participating. That's not very accepting, is it. It's absolutely not very welcoming.

The reality is that many Boy Scout troops already have members who are gay. They just aren't open about it. This is just another step to help those young men live up to the scouting ideal of being honest.

Funny - the LDS Church changed a while ago - why is the Utah Council so far behind?

The world is not a better place today than in earlier era's.

-Drug abuse and in particular Meth and prescription drugs abuse is rampant.

All too frequently we hear about mass violence i.e. Sandy Hook and Aurora.

Sexual and other abuse of children is an ongoing abomination.

Any organization that accepts that something is not of God will not knowingly allow their children to be lead by those actively participating in those lifestyle choices. The BSA has the right to make a change, it'll just be without a large portion of its support, the LDS Church.

All are children of God and all of us our brothers and sisters, we should treat each other with respect and love, while holding to our principles that we feel are right.

Twofer: "God doesn't NEED to be in schools etc."

No he doesn't NEED to be there, but we NEED Him there.

Simply put, if the BSA adopts this change then the LDS, Baptist Churches etc. will form their own organization(s).

@AZ
God is not being removed from the pledge. Hundreds of public markers and statues that have been around for more then a century? Care to name a fe

Calling good evil and evil good? Like claiming the significantly low numbers I referred to earlier as bad or the fact that we are becoming a more just society evil? Claiming oppression of others free agency is good? That calling good evil and evil good?

@md

The facts I listed above are what they are, if you believe those low numbers represent a declining society then I have wonder what you onsider a healthy society. I understand that in order for your beliefs to be true and The hope if a second coming happening in your lifetime means society has to be failing but it's just not reality.

@ AZrods

God loves all his children, regardless of sexual orientation.

Also, God doesn't NEED to be in schools and public places. If you believe that he is truly omnipotent than he is already there anyway. He doesn't have to be invited by a plaque on a statue.

Your point about corruption is wrong as well. Monopolies were rampant in the early 19th century, especially in the steel and railroad industries. As for politics; it's ALWAYS been politics.

Yeah, we wouldn't want any consequences like equality and open-mindedness to plague our children.

Well spring street, I guess it depends on which side of God you are standing on to say that things are better now than before.
God is being taken out of our schools, our pledges, prayer out of school and removed from hundreds of public markers and statues that have stood for over a century.
Sorry, but today's morals and the level of corruption in business and government exceeds that of any time in this country's history.
Your's is a perfect example of calling good evil and evil good.
I suspect the Utah BSA along with many other states are preparing for plan B in case BSA actually chooses to open the doors to outside pressure.
And it will not bode well for BSA if they cave in on this important issue.
To put in off onto each individual districts is cowardly in my opinion and I'm surprised they haven't consulted and counseled with the organization overall.
Or perhaps they knew what the answer would be.
Sad times for BSA.

There are a half-dozen BSA employees making a 6-figure salary that are sweating in their boots knowing that this decision could cost them their jobs in Utah.

The BSA chose to ignore this decision before.

Today, they are trying to avoid it again.

You cannot continue to avoid any rational justification for denying decent Americans the same rights as others.

Today, tomorrow, all americans will be able to join the BSA.

Regardless of orientation.

@ cambodia girl.

Bravo! I agree with you completely.

@spring street.

Influance? I think your idea that our society is in a positive point in history is warped. I think that people who think like you are a negative influence on a decent society.

@cambodia girl
The damaging influance of your brand of "values" have gone down hill. We live in a society that shows greater justice and equality, our crime rates, teen pregnency rates and abortion rates are low In relation to other times in history. I am sorry it is getting harder for you to force your prejudices onto society but it does not mean the society is getting worse.

The BSA has the right to choose what is best for their children. I have the right to choose what is best for mine.

Dear Spring Street,

The world is changing for the better??? That's the first time I have heard that. Look around. Things are not getting better. Values, language, work ethics have all gone down hill.

The BSA need to beware lest God is taken out of the oath, next.

Try to stall all you want the world is changing for the better and there is no reason to turn back.

This is a good idea to wait. This is a serious issue with potentially serious consequences.

We should be very careful with our young people.