Day of shock and mourning puts focus on children's safety

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  • catcrazed Eagle Mountain, UT
    Dec. 17, 2012 12:56 p.m.

    Do you think maybe our time would be more wisely spent finding solutions than ranting about someone else's political stance? There are children at stake here.

  • Stalwart Sentinel San Jose, CA
    Dec. 16, 2012 8:06 a.m.

    Charlemagne - I appreciate the feedback but it absolutely matters what means a killer uses. Had this same incident occurred with the would-be killer wielding a couple of plastic sporks, there would not be more than two dozen murdered civilians. Guns are designed to kill, they have no other value. And, in this case, the instrument was utilized for it's manufactured purpose and it worked well.

    Murder rates matter but so do the means used to effectuate said murders - reducing a piece of the pie (gun-related deaths) reduces the overall size of the pie. This is pretty basic stuff. As noted above, guns happen to be designed exclusively to end life. So, if you truly were concerned about the murder rate, then you would take to heart the fact that here in the US, almost w/out exception, a more heavily armed populace leads to more gun deaths.

    Re: Switzerland - Uhm, they have no standing army but instead foster a draft-like militia. If you are suggesting that the US disband it's military and adopt a system whereby only recognized, trained members of a militia can have a gun, I'm w/ you one-hundred percent.

  • azresident Mesa, AZ
    Dec. 16, 2012 7:10 a.m.

    Howard--my point is that not only guns can be used as weapons against children. How many children have lost their lives to a parent, step-parent, or boyfriend/girlfriend of the parent who is wielding a broom or a wire clothes hanger?

    While changes in gun laws need to be discussed and made, changes in the treatment of those with mental health issues need to be addressed and made also.

    Those who are determined to cause harm will always find a way to do, oftentimes beginning with the abuse of animals. And, sadly, many horrific parents are simply following in the steps of their parents' style of parenting.

    But, I digress. Bottom line, this was an unbelievable tragedy that will be felt for decades to come. During those decades gun control laws need to change, mental healthcare needs to improve, and the abuse of animals needs to be recognized as a precursor to child abuse and murder.

    Blessings to the families and friends of these children and school employees, and to those responders on the scene and their families.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Dec. 16, 2012 3:00 a.m.

    Re: "I can't fathom how so many people think the solution to our gun problem is more guns."

    How about this -- let's make a law that says you can't break into a school and kill people?

    Oh, yeah. We already have such laws. And bad guys just disregard them.

    How about one that says you can't have guns?

    Oh yeah. We tried that, too. Didn't work. Same reason. Bad guys don't care what the law says.

    I guess what I'm having trouble fathoming is how so many people think the solution to our violence problem is to disarm only the good guys.

    Bad guys will not, CANNOT be forced to give up their guns. So new anti-gun laws will be respected only by good guys. Leaving bad guys a guaranteed supply of unarmed victims.

    It's pretty simple physics, but liberals just can't seem to come to terms with it.

    Or just won't.

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    Dec. 15, 2012 10:32 p.m.


    Not that I'm for outlawing guns but I think of many incidents of guns in our school from Columbine, to VA Tech to this latest tragedy, not sure I've heard of too many 4 X 4 trucks being driven into a school building...

  • azresident Mesa, AZ
    Dec. 15, 2012 4:33 p.m.

    Driving through Mesa and seeing the flags lowered was sobering. I can't imagine how the parents are going to get through the "hoopla of the holidays" and the madness of the media.
    My thoughts and prayers are with the family and friends of all who are involved at any level.

    I have owned a handgun (single female who hikes, camps, and travels alone) and, fortunately, never had to defend myself. I do believe that gun laws need to be revisited, but now is not the time to take on the topic of gun laws. Cooler heads are needed.

    Think for a moment about a 4 x 4 pickup intentionally crashing through a school playground at lunch recess. Mayhem, death, a monster at the wheel. Should we outlaw 4 x 4 pickups? Of course not. That would be totally ridiculous.

    Gun laws do need to change, but a reasonable approach is needed-by both sides.

  • justamacguy Manti, UT
    Dec. 15, 2012 3:06 p.m.

    @ Goet, I agree with you. As one of the post going around: Israel arms it's teachers, the US disarms theirs.

  • Charlemagne Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 15, 2012 11:44 a.m.

    One Old Man,

    That you find people disagreeing with you "almost as alarming as the incident itself" is disturbing. In a(classical) liberal democracy we are always going to have disagreements. To equate a difference of opinion with a heinous crime is outrageous

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Dec. 15, 2012 10:54 a.m.

    Some of the posts here are almost as alarming as the incident itself.

  • Charlemagne Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 15, 2012 10:13 a.m.

    Stalwart Sentinel

    "Gun death rates" are a red herring, it doesn't matter what means a killer uses. What matters are murder rates. Looking at statistics from the FBI uniform Crime Reports over the years the two most restrictive states, California and Illinois are ranked 19th and 11th in murders per capita whereas gun loving Utah Wyoming and Idaho are ranked 44th, 35th and 41st respectively.

    Likewise one of the countries in Europe with the lowest murder rates is Switzerland which is the most heavily armed.

    Gun control and low gun ownership are clearly not the answer for reducing intentional homicides!

  • Beverly Eden, UT
    Dec. 15, 2012 8:32 a.m.

    Reseach clearly demonstrates that the steps taken, decades ago, to protect children from school fires has worked. From fire drills to alarm systems, schools are designed to prevent the loss of life when there is a school fire. The building codes, through out America, require sprinkler systems in the roofs of schools, clearly marked Exit signs, doors with panic bars, and fire alarms through out the school. Stop and think, when was the last time a child was killed in a school fire? In America today, Do parents fear a school fire - or a school shooting? There are no building code requirements to prevent a school shooting. It would not take much to get a school building secure, and it would not turn it into a prison. A simple automated lock down button, not any more complicated than the locks on a modern automobile, would be a first step. Training teachers on this new threat is an obvious step. The NRA has chased off our so called elected "leaders" to the point that the gun lobby has won. It is a shame, but securing our schools with building code adjustments is the reasonable answer.

  • Schwa South Jordan, UT
    Dec. 15, 2012 6:27 a.m.

    I can't fathom how so many people think the solution to our gun problem is more guns. It's as if we are encouraging our lives to be like a spaghetti western. America's murder rate is more than double that of the next highest western nation. And I have yet to get any right-winger to explain that statistic to me.

    But while gun control is an important issue to talk about in the wake of several mass shootings, a bigger concern is the woeful state of the mental health care system in America. If we continue this social darwinism, we are asking for our mentally ill to continue to murder people.

  • My2Cents Taylorsville, UT
    Dec. 15, 2012 3:08 a.m.

    OMG, people are not looking at this right. These suicide mass killing are not the work of seasoned mad men or criminals or neighborhood pedophiles or parolee's from prison, these are our kids in our schools that are doing all these heinous killings. Why are children killing each other and themselves? Why does a 13 or 14 year old stand out side the school and kill himself? Insane children has nothing to do with guns which education and schools can so easily blame.

    The schools are public prisons and if any student dare leave or confront the teachers or their inmates they and parents are treated and punished like prisoners. Schools are using technology to track and monitor children 24 hours a day. My god people, wake up, our children are being killed by educations mind warping and drugs. Its time that the parents and teachers stand up and make some noise and break down these prisons they call a school.

    The news media state and national should be all over this like flies on stink, but instead cover-up our socialist government death camps. Parents and people must get involved in policy and methodology now.

  • Stalwart Sentinel San Jose, CA
    Dec. 15, 2012 1:49 a.m.

    Time to put Halo away for a spell and step into the real world. Had an administrator or teacher been carrying, all we'd have is more dead children on our hands.

    procuradorfiscal - Actually, according to a report released on April 2012, the 5 states w/ the highest per capita gun death rates are LA, WY, AL, MT, and MS. All are conservative states w/ lax gun laws and high gun ownership rates.

    The 5 states with the lowest per capita gun death rates are all liberal states w/ strong gun laws and low gun ownership rates.

    This charts w/ national data, as well. Burden met.

    I've never been armed in my life and have never "quivered at the mercy of bad guys." But, then again, I've never walked the tough streets of Tooele like you. If you truly are so concerned about protecting your life then one assumes you also wear a radiation suit wherever you go b/c that is far more likely to save your life given your geographic location than any firearm.

  • freedomforthepeople Sandy, UT
    Dec. 14, 2012 10:46 p.m.

    Goet - I agree! Had an administrator or teacher been carrying, this could have been a much smaller tragedy - but a tragedy nonetheless.

  • Goet Ogden, UT
    Dec. 14, 2012 10:14 p.m.

    As a teacher... our schools are wide open and all doors are unlocked. Best solution is to encourage more teachers to carry by offering training.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Dec. 14, 2012 9:46 p.m.

    Re: "I challenge ANYONE to provide solid documentation regarding the numbers of supposed self defense incidents involving guns."

    Why bother? It's beyond dispute that they exist. The only challengers are disingenuous leftist true believers.

    And, the burden's on them to demonstrate why we should and how we could change the Constitution.

    Since all leftist efforts to "prove" that somehow the Nation would be better off disarmed and quivering at the mercy of the bad guys -- who will certainly retain their guns -- have been an abject and unmitigated failures, there's no real reason to pay them the attention they crave.

  • BYU Track Star Los Angeles, CA
    Dec. 14, 2012 6:33 p.m.

    It begs the question, as stated in the article,whether anything short of turning our schools into prison like fortesses would keep our kids safe from bad people with murder and mayhem on their minds. This is not limited to only schools. I remember the Trolley square shooting. Will City Creek be next?

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Dec. 14, 2012 6:22 p.m.

    One person posted the following in another DN article: "Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year; or about 6,850 times a day. This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.

    As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse

    Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year.

    I'm going to call him out on this. This is an outright LIE! I went to the website he provided and guess what I discovered? It's a gun-nut site much like the NRA garbage.

    Their headline proclaims it to be "The Only No-Compromise Gun Lobby in Washington," and attributes that quote to Ron Paul. That should speak for itself.

    I challenge ANYONE to provide solid documentation regarding the numbers of supposed self defense incidents involving guns.

    They simply DO NOT EXIST.