Principals, UHSAA meet to discuss decisions regarding East, Timpview

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  • RevWillieG Washington, UT
    Oct. 24, 2012 11:11 a.m.

    I don't think anyone has any better idea how or why things turned out the way they did. Give atraight answers instead of the jargon only lawyers understand.

  • eagle Provo, UT
    Oct. 23, 2012 11:37 p.m.

    I would look at the Board of Trustees as sort of the Supreme Court with the final say on most things regarding the UHSAA. I think the structure is provide some checks and balances but the Board of Trustees have final say. The Executive Directors, usually actually the most knowledgeable and reasonable of the bodies, actually have the least power. They may make recommendations but often aren't even allowed to hear the evidence in the final hearings, let alone make the final decision. The Executive Committee has the power to make most decisions and often the Board of Trustees is only involved in cases on appeal, such as this one, or perhaps broader issues like realignment. The Board of Trustees is the the structure of the UHSAA that brings in private citizens, and again many are elected school board members (NOT educators, current coaches or principals thus slamming public education and teachers and principals on this matter may not be appropriate at most levels). The overall structure of the UHSAA relies greatly on schools to self-police and self-report violations and often even relies on regions themselves to discipline schools first and will affirm/overturn region decisions.

  • eagle Provo, UT
    Oct. 23, 2012 11:29 p.m.

    To answer your question, the UHSAA is the governing body of high school athletics in Utah. It is set up by the state board of education for this stewardship. They are not like the AP, UPI,but their state titles are sanctioned and recognized as such by the schools, media and participants. Their sanctioning of events protects the schools and participants in case of injury. I guess schools could break away from the UHSAA but not sure that is practical.

    The UHSAA has three levels. The first level is the Executive Directors. I believe there are five of them. They are usually former coaches and and administrators. They are to administer competitions, track paper work and make recommendations to the Executive Committee which is made up of principals across the state. Usually each region has a representative and there may be at-large members. The Board of Trustees, who actually made the final decision, is made up of citizens usually, perhaps former administrators, coaches etc. but no longer in those positions. They are often school board members. Ultimately they have the final say though the Directors/Executive Committee will make most decisions. They usually make decisions on appeal.

  • 86&90UTE Holladay, UT
    Oct. 23, 2012 7:15 p.m.

    Yes, USC, Ohio St., and Penn St. all got post season bans, but not during the seasons in which the violations occurred. But those schools all would benefit financially and with recruiting by playing a bowl game. High schools get nothing for winning a football championship. Besides, the players at those universities weren't really penalized. They were allowed to transfer to another D1 school and play right away. Silas Redd (Penn State to USC) took advantage of this opportunity. So inform East High that they can't participate in the playoffs next year and allow any student to transfer to any school of their choice and play right away. Sounds fair. I bet one or two schools would get loaded with a lot of talent.

  • 3p* Simi Valley, CA
    Oct. 23, 2012 7:02 p.m.

    Some comments regarding the definition of "fairness" and "transparency" - from the on-line Merriam-Webster dictionary:


    1. marked by impartiality and honesty
    2. free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism
    3. conforming with the established rules


    1. Transparent - the quality or state of being transparent


    1. free from pretense or deceit
    2. easily detected or seen through
    3. readily understood
    4. characterized by visibility or accessibility of information especially concerning business practices

    In my opinion, irrespective of what was said by Mr. Van Wagoner, from what I have read in all of the articles, the UHSAA, miserably failed on both points, relative to Mr. Van Wagoners comments.


  • optic yellow Ogden, UT
    Oct. 23, 2012 5:30 p.m.

    These are just a few questions I have...

    Who gives the UHSAA its power?

    Was it created by the state legislature or the Utah State office of education for the purpose of handling athletics in the state?

    Does it have power because the high schools all just go along with what they say? Do they crown the champ because they have actual authority to do so, or is this like the BCS(formerly the UPI) vs AP National champion.

    Could some one start a new governing body and recruit schools into thier system? Similar to the old NIT vs NCAA tournaments?

    Could the local high schools go together and create their own playoff system?

    These are just a few questions I have...

    Does anyone know the answers? Amy D?

  • red rocks Saint George, UT
    Oct. 23, 2012 1:29 p.m.

    Mr Van Wagoner refers to fairness and transparency and points out that they are two different things. He is correct he addresses fairness as in the eye of the beholder. How come he never addresses transparency and make public who was on the committee that voted and how they voted. That is transparency.

  • Frozen Chosen Savage, MN
    Oct. 23, 2012 11:00 a.m.

    I went to high school in Utah and now live in Minnesota, where every team is included in section playoffs and the section winners then go to state. Utah needs to drop their antiquated HS playoff system and go to something similar so all teams at least get a shot in the playoffs.

    This would solve part of the current problem with the football playoffs where some schools were left out because East was included. But then again I've never known the UHSAA to have a lot of common sense when it comes to these issues...

  • taum american fork, UT
    Oct. 23, 2012 10:38 a.m.

    Eagle, that is a good thought. This is not "Church ball" Where we all play by the spirit of the law. This is School ball where there should be a set of policies that should be goverened and understood.

  • 3p* Simi Valley, CA
    Oct. 23, 2012 10:06 a.m.

    Years ago, I graduated from High School in Utah, and I actively follow Utah High School Athletics.

    Since graduating from College, I have actively both Coached (30+ years) and organized Church Sports activities at the Stake and Ward level.

    The recent decision that the UHSAA reminds me of the many Church "participant eligibility" decisions, that were made in direct violation to published rules and guidelines.

    I have seen situations where the eligibility rules were different from one Church unit to another. Why, because "fairness" was not applied consistently.

    A quote in the article states, "Fair is different from transparency. Fair is in the eye of the beholder."

    This comment clearly shows that this definition of "fairness" is a "word" that can be used to validate any decision, behavior, interpretation of rules and guidelines, based upon the "ebbs" and "flows" of the moment.

    It is therefore reasonable to assume that, from this point forward, based upon this corrupted definition of "fairness", that UHSAA will eventually morph to a standard, where rules or guidelines will no longer "be" or "need to be" consistently followed and/or applied in UHSAA sports?

  • UtahBruin Saratoga Springs, UT
    Oct. 23, 2012 10:03 a.m.

    I love how the Attorney Van Wagon...., poses the question of how this decision affected the other teams involved. And the response from the Board of Trustees was that they took all of that into consideration. With that being the Board of Trustees answer to that question, it only goes to show that those running the UHSAA have most likely never played sports or been involved or around sports. There is so much more to this than just East High School. So many other schools and kids are being affected by this decision. If you are going to let East remain in the playoffs, then don't mess with it. I have to agree with a poster above (David G. Wooley), vacate the wins after the season and nothing gets tampered with and everyone is happy, and all the schools who thought they were getting in still get in and everyone plays the way they thought they were going to play. Same with the Timpview situation, if you are going to tinker with it, then East should stay out.

    Oct. 23, 2012 9:56 a.m.

    Herriman will have a hard time scoring this weekeand against EAST! East will win by three or four touchdowns.

  • footballisgood Holladay, UT
    Oct. 23, 2012 8:22 a.m.

    Monk, Herriman could not have won any more games and gotten a different result. They are the #1 seed out of their region. Winning more games would not have changed that. That's why some are so upset - they did everything possible on the field to get a favorable draw - If they were the #1 seed in any other region, or the the #1 seed in any region any previous year, then they would have a better draw. That is where the inequity lies from their standpoint.
    That said, I am excited for the game this week - it should be a classic!

  • sls Columbia, MO
    Oct. 23, 2012 8:04 a.m.

    USC and Ohio State get banned from post-season play for violating the rules, even though most student-athletes were not involved, but in Utah things don't work the same way, or so it seems. I wonder why?

  • Monk Pleasant Grove, UT
    Oct. 23, 2012 7:36 a.m.

    Not trying to be heartless here. I mostly agree with the way things turned out. But, if Cyprus and Herriman wanted better outcomes, they need to admit they should have won more games. The cold lesson that sports often teaches is that life isn't fair. The same outcome doesn't happen for players and coaches who put in the same effort. The players at East and Timpview did nothing wrong. The players at Cyprus and Herriman are also blameless. The blame falls with the lack of vigilance that the administrators had. Who can blame them for not giving football as much attention as education, by the way? The only difference is that East and Timpview were more fortunate on the field of play.
    It's a tough lesson. But it's also not as big of a deal, in the grand scheme of things, as has been purported over the last week. Football is just a game. Relax folks. No serious injustice has occurred.

  • Andrew J. Marksen Deseret, UT
    Oct. 23, 2012 6:52 a.m.

    Time for a massive lawsuit. Tie the whole mess up in litigation. The UHSAA attorney has already admitted publicly to irregularities in the process. He also mentioned transparency and many of us are still wondering who made the decisions. If there is going to be real and meaningful change in this broken organization now is the time to get tough and make sacrifices. I am not a proponent of legal action but in this case the UHSAA has made it clear they will not be accountable to anyone. The emergency meeting yesterday was a sham, an illusion. A slap in the face to those with genuine concerns. We have been had, patronized, we got a pat on the head and were dismissed like children folks and everyone should be outraged over it.

    Oct. 23, 2012 12:20 a.m.

    This is a mess, but I find it a little hard to believe a team that won 1 region game should be considered jobbed by not being included in the playoffs.

  • SportsFann Bountiful, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 11:52 p.m.

    I have heard on numerous occasions that people making the decision wanted to make sure the athletes from East weren't all punished. So, I guess that isn't really true since it is clearly unfair to the athletes at Herriman High. Those athletes have worked just as hard as anyone else to earn a no. 1 seed for the play-offs. Someone explain to me how this is fair. By the way, I have no connection to either East or Herriman as my child attends another school and does not play football, but I have followed this case closely. It is a total shame and I feel bad for the Herriman football team and its community. They are now the victims. East cheated, based on any of the enforced forfeits. I'm so sorry (sincerely) for the young men at East, but the rules were broken and the responsibility for this problem is with those people who broke the rule. Certainly not at the Herriman football team.

  • David G Woolley Bountiful, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 11:22 p.m.

    Couldn't the UHSAA simply vacate the wins after the tournament, thereby keeping East High School in their relative position of strength as the first seed. The vacated wins are not the real issue here since East is going to participate in the post season. The real punishment are fines, probation, and the loss of an athletic director at East. So make the vacated wins retroactive post tournament, seed the tournament with East in first place, and everyone gets what they want.

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 10:34 p.m.

    That is a great question satch. A lot of people have bashed the UHSAA as an organ of public education calling for its end. In reality, I think one will find that the five people on this committee aren't educators or current principals but members of the community, probably elected school board members, maybe a superintendent (maybe). This isn't out of control public educators that made this decision, the original Executive Committee decision was to forfeit all of East's games which eliminated them from the tournament.

    I also wonder if the same five members voted on the Timpview question. Perhaps it was another body of five individuals. I would hope so because it speaks even worse for these individuals if they blatantly punished East and Timpview differently.

  • KurtKobain Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 10:18 p.m.

    They should make East play Timpview at Herriman for the play-in-game.

  • satch Highland, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 10:03 p.m.

    Has the UHSAA released the names of the 5 voting members who voted in this matter. Is this public record? I would sure like to know who they are.

  • Proud to be American West Jordan, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 9:28 p.m.

    The UHSAA isn't concerned any more about the other schools that are left out. It's a dead issue at this point. I would like to see the UHSAA disbanded at the end of this season. I am hoping that a state legislator steps in and offers to clean this mess up by having a "play where you live" solution. The biggest problem in Utah right now is there are too many people in charge that want the path of least resistance. They don't want a seeding system, because that requires them to sit down another night of the week to figure it all out.

  • eagle Provo, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 9:11 p.m.

    Being solution oriented, I say do this.

    SEED the state tournament. Get a committee from each region in 4A and simply seed the tournament. The UHSAA has compromised the integrity of the tournament. They aren't likely to go back on the East decision, but they CAN restructure the tournament. McKee is right, take a week off if necessary to get it right. Also, if there is a way to expand the tournament to 20 teams, DO IT! Perhaps this week play-in games exist that include Cyprus, Salem Hills, and Springville, three teams jobbed by the inconsistent decisions of the UHSAA.

    I hope that someone from the UHSAA will stumble on this article and this particular post. i am offering a COMMON SENSE plan to make something out of this MESS. Make a 20-team tournament that brings Salem Hills, Springville and Cyprus back into the tournament and SEED the state tournament to separate the strongest teams from each other.