Re: dwayne Provo, UT"Rifleman, your definition of ugly is
wrong."It is a question of refinement. The use of foul language
defines the user as someone who is coarse and rough. They typically have made
wrong choices, taken the easy road, are less educated, blame others for their
problems, and little self control.There will always be those who
work make the world a more beautiful, brighter place, and help lift others up.
And, there will always be those who want to make others as miserable as their
own choices have made them.The goal should be to become refined like
a bar of gold, not coarse like a bar of pig iron.
I know plenty of people who are very intimidating and in-your-face aggressive
who don't feel the need to use a single swear word or swear word lite
(flip, darn, etc.) to achieve their end.If the concern is aggression
and fighting, let's address aggression and fighting.Pretending
that the only words that lead to fights are swear words is ignoring reality.
Re: RanchHand Huntsville, UT"Didn't we recently have an eat-in at
Chic-fil-A over the right of "free speech"?"Decent
people show respect for women and children by controlling their mouths in
public. There will always be those who try to make this world a better place
for others, and there will always be those who want to make this world a more
ugly place. Certainly people should have the 2nd Amendment right to
use foul language .... but why would anybody want to?
Why do these people want to infringe on free speech? Now there are places you
can't say certain things in certain areas because it would create a panic
and cause injuries like yelling fire in a theatre.But really the police have
enough on their plates in protecting the people then have to be referee's
between two people get in a childish battle over words.Granted they act like
children when they do this but all should know better.
I would suggest that Ogden City get a legal opinion about the constitutionality
of the proposed profanity ordinance. And if that opinion does not come back
that the proposed law is unconstitutional, then they need to hire another
attorney or put aside a whole lot of money to defend the very questionable
ordinance in federal court. I am not a fan of profanity, but what is described
in this article is so subjective that saying one swear word could trigger a call
to the police. I know many people who are offended if they here even one
profane word. This is just an expensive mistake on the part of the City.
So if the problem is people getting loud and verbally aggressive why limit it to
only swear words?there are plenty of good utah folks that know how to get very
verbally aggressive without actually swearing. the words flip and heck are two
words that come to mind. Beyond clearly violating free speech rights it is also
vague and of target.
Western Rover: What a marvelous solution. let the sponsoring league handle the
problem, penalizing the team and/or stopping the game would make much more sense
than an almost unenforceable city ordinance. How would the city enforce this if
the police weren't there. I have been to many youth sporting events held
at the public parks, and almost never seen an officer in attendance unless they
had a child particpating. If your advice was made policy by the leagues, there
may be an issue the first time, but not many times after that. A much better
idea than a city ordinance!
Profane speech, by definition, is abusive. Abuse is wrong. But is it the word
itself which abuses? Or is it the intent of the speaker? Or is it the
sensitivity of the person who feels abused or assaulted by language?I know a man with a good heart who frequently used profane language. It is
his way. He might refer to someone with genuine affection as a "little
s---." Some people might define this as abuse. Some would be offended by
his language.I know his heart and let it go. He means nothing bad
by it. There are others who would not be inclined to let it pass. And
isn't the lack of desire to "let it go" just a little unholy?
Isn't a little profane? Isn't it also just a little abusive?There are those who do not spake profane words, but their actions are profane.
They are the hypocrites, the modern-day Pharisees who "make a man an
offender for a word." (Isaiah 29:21) They are those that employ
"unrighteous dominion" (see D&C 121) typical of religious zealots in
a white-hot rage.Let's work together to avoid profane any
Recall listening to city worker's colorful language as they sliced their
fingers while repairing a sprinkler.Are they exempt?
Hope they have lots of money to defend themselves in Court. Freedom of Speech
lawsuits coming. I'll go and swear and use the defense of "I was just
quoting J. Golden Kimball", the Mormon Swearing Apostle.
Why doesn't the referee simply dock points from the team that has an
out-of-control fan (perhaps after issuing a warning), and if necessary
disqualify the team? Of course, once that happens there will be more swearing,
but the idea is that it would usually never get to that point.Then
you don't need to pass an ordinance and spend a lot of taxpayer money
defending it against the inevitable challenge to its constitutionality. Whether
the city wins or loses that fight, the taxpayers will lose either way.
Days like these, I am thankful for the existence of The 10th Circuit Court of
Appeals in Denver. The 10th Circuit -- "restoring the Constitution which
I think that overall the desired outcome is commendable, but I have doubts about
its enforceability; at least in a meaningful way.It would be a more
simple problem to solve if its origins were city parks. But it's not.
Profanity has been an increasing part of society for the past several decades.
Once banned on television, it is now allowed. Off color speech which once
resulted in a stern lecture and occasionally followed up by a soap job is now
all the rave.When working in my garden, it does no good to simply
trim the weeds. Maybe, as suggested, local citizens will have some doable
solutions. More than likely, this, like so many issues plaguing society, it
begins in the home and that is where it must be corrected. Fining people at the
park, though filling city coffers, will do little more than incite resentment
and inspire rebellion.
I attended my son's lacrosse game last year, and we had to put up with a
father from the other team who spent most of the game berating the officials and
using every word in the book. He was so irate his face was red, and I seriously
thought he was going to have a heart attack. The official who was receiving the
brunt of his abuse was young, probably 17. It was wrong that the officials, the
boys on the field, and the rest of the spectators had to put up with this
man's behavior and language. I wonder if there was a law against it, if he
would have tried to keep himself in check. It is hard to say. I wish I had had
the authority to remove him from the field; I would have done it in a heartbeat.
Didn't we recently have an eat-in at Chic-fil-A over the right of "free
speech"?Shouldn't we now have a "swear-in" in
public parks to support free speech?
"The use of profanity, Brown explained, wouldn't be illegal unless the
language becomes disruptive to others."Good luck with consistent
enforcement of that.I can assure you that hearing any swear word
could be considered "disruptive to others"This is another
overreach that will cause more problems than it solves.Lets see if
the "get govt out of our lives" crowd shows up in force on this one.
So this is patterned after a West Valley City ordinance? They are the same
folks that introduced the 4-day work week for local government; you know, the
model Huntsman followed by reducing services from the State of Utah by 20% to
residents. Some very high profile people that were forced to leave West Valley,
and who were responsible for their incredible amounts of debt, were very quickly
hired by Ogden City. When are we going to learn that West Valley is no model of
ethical behavior, per se, or getting things right for the way government ought
to be exercised, and quit following the blind as we fall into the ditch
together? Ogden needs to solve their own problems and arrive at a proper
solution; West Valley has plenty of their own issuers with which to deal. There
are great folks in both cities, by the way, so maybe the politicians should ask
their stalwart residents for solutions. Now that would be a novel approach to
governing, wouldn't it?
Oh, my heck!!