Catholics battle over moral implications of budget politics

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  • kargirl Sacramento, CA
    June 23, 2012 5:35 p.m.

    Question: Why is it that wealthy companies and wealthy people get such subsidies for doing nothing, or not doing as much as they might do to help themselves and earn their own way and don't have to account for it? They pay lower tax rates, as I understand it, for just sitting around collecting money than for working at something. And yet, someone who might very much want to work, but can't--even temporarily--has to prove it, account for all that they have (yes, even old, infirm, little old ladies who have a little tucked away and a burial plot and something to pay for their funeral have to account for that!). And while a highly paid CEO can get a huge bonus even after the company gets all that, our little old lady can't get a check from a family member to spend for something nice for her birthday without thinking she'll lose money for it. Or does everybody's grandma have a nice nest egg and it's only the little old ladies I know who are in this fix?

  • kargirl Sacramento, CA
    June 23, 2012 5:15 p.m.

    Obama's paying for Bush's wars, the ones that we bought on an old credit card, and owed on the day the new administration took office. And meanwhile, back at the mansion, instead of paying the Ike years' tax rate, which no one complained about, while there was building going on and work being had, the rich guys don't want to pay for anything...although their cars ride the roads, they use the first responders, fire departments, parks, etc, same as the rest of us. And since there aren't so many workers, things need more work, more repair, etc. and cost more. But don't try to sell me this trickle-down stuff...King Midas still wants his world made of gold.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 21, 2012 7:26 p.m.

    When ever someone receives an unpleasant truth, they often call it bigotry of the on the part of the messenger .

    Further, the Catholic church is not unique in this, the same could be said of any other church.

    As a person who has lost faith in God, I must look at churches and assess them by what they do, not by what they say. And what they do seems to mimic exactly the business interests who have oppressed people since the beginning of civilization.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    June 21, 2012 5:17 p.m.

    The Catholic church used government funds to build its religious business. Can't do this without strings, mandates, and regulations. Sad, but true.

    Why do think our schools, businesses, etc, are so regulated with mandates?

  • The Rock Federal Way, WA
    June 21, 2012 1:30 p.m.


    True, all money is loaned into existence by the Federal Reserve, a private tax exempt corporation. This should not be.

    The Federal Reserve is necessary. It is not necessary to make it a private corporation. Most people believe the Fed is part of the government, and it should be, under the treasury department.

    That being said; your point makes zero sense to me. Are you saying we should not work to get out of dept just because our currency is not debt free?

    I don't buy that arguement.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    June 21, 2012 12:03 p.m.

    @Ultra Bob
    "I find it very difficult to believe that a large business organization would disagree with the Tea Party proposals. The Catholic church is a very large international business organization.

    History indicates that the Catholic church has never done anything to actually fight the causes of poverty."

    I'm trying to picture this being said about the LDS church and being called something other than anti-mormon bigotry...

  • IDC Boise, ID
    June 21, 2012 11:16 a.m.

    @Bubble. She was on food stamps because of her 4 kids and a drug addicted husband who was is prison. She was paid more than enough for her position and training. I gave her kids Christmas presents and cash during the holidays. I donated money to her sister for surgery. She spent hours at the gym instead of caring for her children. I fired her because she was beligerant, spent more time on texts than work, surfed the internet against company policy, and lied. I gave her a severance because I felt sorry for her and then she lied to unemployment about receiving a severance as well as her reasons for dismisal.

    There are lazy, dishonest people out there. The government takes away my freedom and makes me pay for their food and housing when they won't take care of themselves.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 21, 2012 10:28 a.m.

    I agree with those who think the nuns are a political tool who’s mission is to hoodwink the American people.

    I find it very difficult to believe that a large business organization would disagree with the Tea Party proposals. The Catholic church is a very large international business organization.

    History indicates that the Catholic church has never done anything to actually fight the causes of poverty. Their efforts to help the poor consists of treating the symptoms and ignoring the causes.

    Thus the plight of the poor relative to the rich and powerful has not changed since the beginning. While that is not the fault of the Catholic church, it is neither to it’s credit.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    June 21, 2012 10:20 a.m.

    The Catholic church took too much government money, and now like many Americans, will lose much of their independence.

    Qualifying for benefits isn't what it seems to be.

  • Bubble SLC, UT
    June 21, 2012 9:41 a.m.

    @ IDC: Why was your employee on food stamps in the first place? Why were taxpayers paying for her food instead of her labor for you paying for her food?

    You want the waste to stop? You want people to stop living on the taspayer's dime? Then pay your employees enough to live on instead of expecting the taxpayers to pick up your slack.

  • IDC Boise, ID
    June 21, 2012 9:27 a.m.

    We need to feed the poor but we shouldn't feed them steak, lobster, and papa john's pizza. The nicest housing I lived in during college was section 8 housing. The best I ate in college was the few months I had food stamps. Far too many people abuse the system and the system is simply too soft. Food stamps should cover wheat bread, milk, ground beef, and fresh vegetables. Not steak, seafood, twinkies, mtn dew, papa john's pizza.

    I had an employee who was on food stamps and she only ate organic food from the finest health food stores. The waste and abuse has to stop. Only those who are truly in need should get assistance. No more people quitting their jobs because welfare is easier.

  • Serenity Manti, UT
    June 21, 2012 6:51 a.m.

    @ The Rock. Where do you get your information? Are you saying that if we take away medical care from the people who need it the most, it will save our economy? Are you one of the ones who will lose care if this happens? There are so many people who are living on very little and are literally starving because they cannot afford to live in this economy.

    So you want to cut from the elderly and the very sick? You don't want total anarchy? Maybe then it would be wise not to threaten the ones who are considered the weakest in society.

    If you want to cut, then do it across the board starting with congress and the president. Then go down to the working people and the ones who are in this country illegally and cut there. Don't continue with the Bush era tax cuts and stop the wars this country is involved in.

    Hurting some people is not ok. We all must make the sacrifice. Fixing the economy any other way will not work.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    June 21, 2012 4:07 a.m.

    Yes, we need to cut.

    But, remember, the GOP has vowed to kill anything with a 10 to 1 spending cuts to revenue increases.

    And there are so many that applaud that approach, that it is apparent to any logical person that the GOP is more tied to ideology than reasonableness.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    June 21, 2012 2:25 a.m.

    @The Rock. All money is debt. Our monetary system is debt based and if we didn't go into debt there wouldn't be any money.

    We need to change our monetary system and stop falling for the "getting out debt" nonsense.

  • Less Is More Ogden, UT
    June 21, 2012 12:20 a.m.

    The truth of the matter, illustrated throughout Rand's works and as evidenced today with how many capable people have become dependent upon the government for basic needs, is that social justice always sounds good in books, on the news, in religious arenas, etc. The sad truth is that the Utopian concept will only work if everyone gives their best effort and receives according to their true needs. In reality, whenever it is implemented it leads to a growing population that become looters, capable of supporting themselves but unwilling to do so. The difficulty always becomes determining who is honestly "Those in need". Even churches struggle with this as their resources are limited. Government programs rarely get this right, as they deliver a on-size fits all (bloated) solution that leads to looters, waste, and astronomical costs. What we really need is a strong emphasis by government, religion, and other civic leaders to encourage, support, and create incentives for self-sufficiency at all levels of ability. "Ask not what your country can do for you.."

  • The Rock Federal Way, WA
    June 20, 2012 11:03 p.m.

    We face hard choices.

    If we do not cut now the economy will fail, businesses will cease to exist. There will be no health care and no government. We will face total anarchy.

    If we cut now it will hurt some people now but prevent the train wreck that is sure to follow if we don't cut.

    We never should have gotten into this position. If we followed the original intent of the constitution all of this could have been avoided.

    Thomas Jefferson once said that if he could change anything in the constitution it would be to deny congress to borrow money. If he could have made that change we could have avoided all of this.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    June 20, 2012 8:17 p.m.

    "You can't have Obama adding $5 tillion to the national debt and saying he is spending less than anyone since Reagan."

    That is true but that's not what is being claimed. Each president, upon leaving office, has left behind a budget plan for the fiscal year (since the fiscal year is I think october-september but a president gets in in january). The claim that people are making is that compared to the previous president's final budget (in bush's case his 2009 budget or oct 2008-sept2009) Obama has increased spending at a slower rate (percentage-wise) than all other presidents in the past 70 years. Note: if you account for inflation, Eisenhower increased it the slowest at about -3% while Obama is second at -1%). Yes... if you adjust for inflation Obama is decreasing gov't spending relative to the final Bush budget.

  • There You Go Again Saint George, UT
    June 20, 2012 7:43 p.m.

    "..."The White House is strangling the Catholic Church," he said...".

    When it's safe to be a young man and a member of the Catholic Church, voters might begin to listen to priests rant about who is strangling whom.

  • A1994 Centerville, UT
    June 20, 2012 6:29 p.m.

    @one old man

    Let me correct a few things you said. It was Market Watch (NOT part of the Wall Street Journal) who ran an article saying that Obama wasn't spending as much. It turns out they used one of Nancy Pelosi's charts to prove that 'fact.'

    I would encourage you to actually read the Wall Street Journal, particularly their opinion page, and see what they have to say about Obama's deficit spending.

    You can't have Obama adding $5 tillion to the national debt and saying he is spending less than anyone since Reagan. The math doesn't add up.

    @Dave D.

    "Our church leaders have advocated social justice from the beginning."
    Don't confuse the welfare program with social justice. Go read what Heber J. Grant said when the welfare program was launched in 1936.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    June 20, 2012 6:13 p.m.

    Right, Tuck. When will the GOP get serious and stop increasing the debt?

    Even the Wall Street Journal's Money Watch acknowledges that the rate of spending increase under Obama is the lowest of any administration since Reagan started the spendthrift stampede.

    It's things like those wars waged on a credit card and all those tax cuts for Romney's friends that really caused the trouble.

  • What in Tucket? Provo, UT
    June 20, 2012 5:17 p.m.

    There ain't no money folks. We are headed for catastrophe if we do not get our budget under control. And as the man said if we go under then the poor will really suffer. We owe untold trillions for social security and medicare and a $15 trillion federal debt. Our true state is we are in the red over $50 trillion. Can you imagine anyone in congress suggesting we pay off say $1 trillion a year, it won't happen. Without a balanced budget things will get worse.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    June 20, 2012 5:00 p.m.

    @casual observer
    "Can you imagine the uproar in Utah if the LDS church engaged in this dialogue?"

    Not sure. I mean really if you look at it... people tend to just hate religious involvement when the group is taking a position different than what they have. Like liberals trumpet this group of nuns while conservatives back the Bishops who are standing against the birth control decision. Then each of those sides doesn't like what the other group is doing. Take the LDS church involvement (limited though it is). Prop 8 had major points among conservatives in the state and is a primary cause of a lot of liberals switching from a neutral view of the church to a negative one. Then there's the immigration issue here which the church hasn't exactly taken a firm stance, but you kinda see that they're pretty okay with illegal immigrants all things considered. You can see support for the church taking that stance from more liberal-minded people, as well as plenty of comments from conservative LDS members who seem to consider illegal immigration to be the one issue they have with thire church.

  • Dave D Pocatello, ID
    June 20, 2012 4:53 p.m.

    Those of us who are LDS could learn a lot from these nuns and bishops. Our church leaders have advocated social justice from the beginning. We should too.

  • casual observer Salt Lake City, UT
    June 20, 2012 4:51 p.m.

    Can you imagine the uproar in Utah if the LDS church engaged in this dialogue?