54-10,17-14 to end a losing streak.
@54-10So which one of your persona's will be coming? 54-10?
kosta fesenko? duckhunted? Or will it be one of the other 20 or so?
@ sammygDuckhunter 1Mob 0sammy, either you're
extremely loyal or you've forgotten how he threw you under the bus last
DuckhunterHighland, UTLooking forward to it.
Utah grew and developed because of BYU, and it'll be great seeing three
competitive teams from the state.
@54-10Schedule not out yet of course, it is only May. Games will
start at the end of August.
@ KralonHowever, Boise has a way of maximizing ability and talent
once they arrive on campus.Lets compare Doug Martin & Jakes
DuckhunterHighland, UTWhere and when are the games, I'll
Duckhunter 1Mob 0There's something very special about a
kid that is multi sports talented and can swat balls from a 40" vantage
point.And 'we' got him.
@naval vet"But there's a reason why starting QBs generally
make more money in the NFL than starting WRs."But Chase
won't even be the starting qb at utah let alone in the nfl. Even utah
"fans" are admitting that finally. There is a reason why exactly zero
other schools recruited him as a qb and why he was completely unranked as a qb
recruit. But if you want to talk about him possibly being a star on defense,
well I am in agreement, I think he will be. But there is a reason why starting
qb's in the nfl generally make more money than starting lb's.
@naval vetI don't care what I "sound like to" you. You
actually don't "know" anything about either of these kids. If it is
of no consequence that Talon has D1 basketball offers then why are you on an
article about Talon talking about it? Of course it matters if he has D1
basketball offers because it is simply more evidence of the quality of athlete
that he is. He has D1 offers in MULTIPLE sports. That sure trumps the year you
got cut from the freshman team so you served as equipment manager. But I'll tell you what naval vet, since you seem to be able to track all
things utah all the way from PA, why don't you come on out this fall and
attend a couple of my teams football games? I'm sure you'll be here
since you claim to travel to every utah game everywhere even the armpit known as
el paso. Come on out, we'll get together. I'll introduce you to the
people around here you don't think I know since they are all going to be at
the games.Put up or shut up.
Duckhunter:"What I can tell you is Talon's overall athletic
ability is superior. Why is that such a big deal for you utah fans to
fathom?"Because there just aren't ANY reports out there
from recruiting services that validates that. Rivals, Scout, ESPN....all rate
Hansen as the superior overall football player. The REAL question is, with all
that has been published on Rivals, Scout, and ESPN, how could anyone suggest
OTHERWISE?It is of no consequence that Shumway is a D-1 calibur
basketball player unless he's playing basketball. It is of no consequence
if a WR runs faster, or jumps higher, than a QB (or LB). They usually do. But
there's a reason why starting QBs generally make more money in the NFL than
starting WRs.You sure don't SOUND like a coach to me.
Comparing Talon to Chase is ridiculous and unfair. Chase has attended many out
of state camps and combines where a player is evaluated and ranked nationally.
Talon has not. Chase played one position, QB. Talon plays WR,TE and RB every
game. (and occasionally QB) That alone diluted his stats. Then add missed games
due to injury. Every year the top players in Utah are invited to participate in
the Badger Elite 7on7 held in Vegas.(best in the west) Talon and Chase were both
invited their Soph. and Jr. year. Talon was recognized both years in the top 10,
Chase was not. It's asinine to assume that the U didn't want Shumway.
D-1 schools don't waste their scholies on players they don't want.
Talon and Chase are good friends and have always celebrated each others
accomplishments. And to those of you who claim to know the Shumway family so
well. Talon has made it known and very public that he does not want to be
associated with his father. He must have some pretty good reasons that
you're not privy to. Neither boy made a bad choice just an individual one.
@fenderTalon was injured for a large portion of his jr year. You
keep ignoring that fact. He also committed to BYU so that also says something
about your opinion. Since I know the kids in question, and have for many, many
years. Coached them, coached against them, watched them, etc. I have a pretty
good idea as to each of their abilities.I made a pretty simple
statement, that Talon is a better athlete overall. For some reason this offends
utah "fans" like yourself to the core. I'm not sure why other than
the ingrained utah "fan" inferiority complex has probably kicked in and
you guys just can't handle the thought of a kid going to BYU being capable
of jumping higher than the kid that went to utah. But unfortunately for you it
is a fact. Talon is faster, quicker, and jumps higher. He simply does. It
isn't a debate, it is a fact. What part of Talon having D1 offers in
multiple sports, and Chase having them in just 1 sport, is hard for you to
grasp? Talon is a very special athlete, the ensuing years will prove
duckhunterThis is about demonstrated football talent. You raised the
athletic issue, and it's irrelevant. At this point Shumway has done
nothing to demonstrate he's a bigger football talent than Hansen or as
good. Simply a fact that the recruiting evaluations on the elite kids are
virtually complete by the end of the junior year. Shumway may be the
exception...anything's possible, but at this point we have nothing more
than your say so. Just when I was beginning to think there was hope for you.
This kid is a freaky athlete and is an awesome pick up. Great demeanor and
competitive nature too. Congrats Talon and BYU.
@devlishuteWhen did I ever say Chase can't play? My opinion of
Chase is that he will be a terrific college football player, I've posted
that so many times it shouldn't even be an issue with utah "fans".
All I've ever said is I do not believe he will be a qb, he'll play
defense eventually. So in that respect we completely agree, it doesn't
matter what position he plays, it only matters that he does play.@fender How come Chase didn't show up with top times as a
sprinter or long jumper? Because he didn't participate in those sports.
Talon is also a D1 quality basketball player and has spent his time working on
his football and basketball skills. In case you haven't noticed he has D1
offers in BOTH sports. That doesn't leave a lot of time for other stuff.
Why don't you call him up and tell him he should add track to his already
busy schedule because without it you don't think he is fast or can jump.LOL!
@fenderChase Hansen is finished with high school. He played all of
his years. Talon Shumway still has one remaining. Talon's recruiting grades
are not yet complete. What I can tell you is Talon's overall athletic
ability is superior. Why is that such a big deal for you utah fans to fathom?
Like I said in previous posts I have never said Talon is a superior football
player to Chase, Chase is a fantastic football player, but Talon is faster, he
is quicker, he can jump much higher, that is simply fact. YOu guys take a
comment like that as a personal insult to yourselves and utah but why don't
you stop an think about it for a moment? There are better athletes in this world
than Chase Hansen. There are better athletes in this state than Chase Hansen.
That is not a denigration of Chase, it is simply a fact. Chase will be a good
player for the ute's but he will not be their qb. Talon will be a good
player for BYU and it could be at any of several positions because he is that
versatile. Yes he has a 40" vertical.
@duckhunter the all knowing one.So Utah lied to Chase about QB? Is
that why he was QB all spring??? Your all consuming hatred of all things Utah is
comical.Back to this article... congrats to Talon I hope you enjoy
your career at the Y. Unlike others here have said, I am sure the U would have
been happy to have you as well.
congrats to BYU. I haven't heard any hype about this kid but if Utah
offered him he must be a quality player.
DuckhunterBottom line the issue is superior football talent. Both
Rivals and ESPN rate Hansen well ahead of Shumway. Those ratings are based on
extensive film breakdown by former NFL and D1 coaches. Your knowing a parent or
watching a kid play little league football means absolutely nothing. BTW, if
this kid is such a terrific athlete, as you claim, why doesn't he show up
with a top time as a sprinter or long jumper? 40" vertical? Kobe Bryant
has a 38" vertical. Maybe that puts it in perspective for you.
If Duckhunter didn't exaggerate on who he knows and what he knows with such
regularity it would be easier to believe his assertions. However, in this case
I do believe he knows Hansen and Shumway. What I don't believe is his
ability to evaluate talent in an unbiased fashion. I've watched enough
Chase Hansen games to know that the kid can play. He's at a different
level than other HS kids and it's not close. Does it really
matter what position he plays? He'll impact the game whether he plays at
QB, LB, S, or special teams!
@naval vetI know Shumway and Hansen, really well. I don't know
either Kyle or Bronco although I know Kyle's younger brothers. I played
against Bronco in high school but have never held a conversation with him. I
have met and talked with Dale Murphy. You see the Shumway's, Hansen's
and Murphy's all live here in the Highland/Alpine area and have kids that
play sports that are the same ages as a couple of my kids. It is pretty easy to
know people you associate with all year in multiple sports. It is also easy to
know people you went to high school with like myself and the younger
Whittingham's. What I find funny is your "frantic and
emotional" replies to my posts and the fact that you know nothing and no
one. That is funny to me.LOL!
I find it awfully convenient how Duckhunter always seems to have the inside
story on everything. He knows Shumway. He knows Hansen. He knows the specifics
of all conversations taken place between the recruits and each coaching staff.
He personally knows Bronco and Kyle. He even knows Dale Murphy. He knows who
really shot JFK, and was personally consulted on the Manhattan Project. I
don't buy any of it.
@DuckhunterI find it hilarious every time a cougar fan wants to hang
their hat on the ol' Utah lied to Hansen by recruiting him as a quarterback
when they'll end up playing him at LB.A ton of recent Utah
recruits have come out and stated the complete opposite to what you're
saying. They've told the media that the up front honest recruiting was
refreshing and that they were told up front they'd need to earn their way
into whatever position they were recruited to play but will always have options
to get on the field somewhere else if they can win a battle there instead.
Utah's proven to be among the best in the country at doing exactly that.
Trust me, Chase Hansen knows this and it has everything to do with why he chose
Utah.Utah was straight up honest ... Chase, come compete for a spot
to play quarterback ... if you're right for the role it will be yours one
day. If it's not, we'll help you excel at a different position.There's the true story.
@CougFaninTX"Tanner Mangum throwing to Josh Weeks, Dylan Collie
and Talon Shumway is going to capture the headlines in four or five
years."... the Daily Herald headlines.I'm
sorry, it was just too easy and I'm only having fun with you.
Seems like every BYU recruit is a legacy -- related to someone who played there
or is coaching there (today's example: Talon Shumway's dad played for
BYU).When are the Cougs going to start rolling in "new"
recruits. You know, the ones from around the nation that want to play for BYU
because they're on ESPN and have all that exposure.
Good luck to Talon on a great accomplishment.Unlike others, I
don't feel like posters on a DNews article are qualified to analyze who is
more athletic than whom nor do I profess to "know him".I'll leave that up to the huge ego.
@me, myself and iYou actually proved you know nothing about either
situation. Hansen went to utah specifically because they promised
him he could try to play qb. He did not go there "knowing" he'd
play defense. The utah coaches did know it and I have stated on here many times
I believe they were dishonest in their recruiting of him. BYU told him they were
not recruiting him as a qb and he would be playing defense. They were straight
up honest with him. At BYU's summer camp a couple of years ago Tanner
Mangum absolutely wiped the floor with Hansen as a qb, it wasn't even
close. As far as Shumway and Hansen for the mr football award, Talon
was injured for much of last year and missed several games, Chase was also a
senior. Chase was well deserving of that award but that has nothing to do with
which one is the more athletic kid. You see I know them, you do not. Like I told
Utah'95 I never said Talon was the better football player, just the better
athlete. Of course Talon still has his sr year to go.
PAC12Fan:To answer your question about who is better if both are 8-4
is simple. The better 8-4 record is whoever wins the Holy War! Head to Head
match-ups are the only way to ever settle truthfully the question of
Duckhunter:After reading some of your later posts I will apologize
for my harsh eval. of your first post. Since we are discussing football on this
thread when you said Shumway was the better athlete I figured you meant football
player as well. Your later posts clarified what you really meant. And since I
try to be reasonable and objective I have no problem in admitting my first
comment towards you was off base, that and the fact that I'm suffering
horribly from football withdrawls which in this case caused me a little foot in
@Utah'95I just happen to know them and know how they both grade
out in those athletic abilities. That is not a denigration of Chase either, he
is a fantastic athlete. But Talon has D1 offers in multiple sports and that
attests to his overall athleticism. Chase was not going to be a D1 athlete in
any other sport. He is a football player, and a great one.@JayDeeI know Jay very well, he and I coached Talon and my son in both football
and basketball. I have always liked Jay. Of course what happened in their family
is personal and not anyone's business on here but I personally love Jay,
and Talon, and all of their family. Jay actually helped out at BYU a few years
ago with the long snapper's when BYU was struggling a bit at that position.
He was good enough to my son to actually take him to BYU practice with him and
Talon and it was a lot of fun for them. Talon is going to be a fantastic player
for BYU, he is probably the most athletic kid I have ever known.
CougFanin TX:Actually Hansen was recruited to and planning on
playing LB when he signed with Utah. The change came when the Utah coaches
talked him into staying and competing for the starting QB job instead of leaving
for his mission after graduation. If I was a betting man I would bet Hansen
red-shirts this season and leaves on his mission after fall semester. No matter
how the cookie crumbles for him I don't see him transferring to the Y.I do agree with you that both are exceptional athletes and could very
well end up playing a number of different positions to help their teams.
Max:No...it would have been nice to have another talented local kid
on the roster at the U but this signing doesn't sting at all.Duckhunter: You just revealed you're willing to sellout any credibility
as a knowledgeable football fan to support your team. If Shumway truly was a
better athlete than Hansen I'm sure it would have been Shumway taking home
the Mr. Football award and not his teammate. They are both solid and talented
football players who knows what either of them would have accomplished without
the other my guess is not nearly as much as they did.Yeffoegn:Try reading the article before commenting. Shumway said it best himself
when he said he felt like Utah didn't want him as badly. Shumway is a great athlete and I'm sure he'll have a great career at
the Y. I wish him the best of luck.
Chase Hansen might be a better version of Riley Nelson, but a MUCH better
version of Riley Nelson is a Stanford transfer named Taysom Hill. He's the QB of the future I'm excited about.
To compare Talon Shumway with Chase Hansen...Isn't that kind of an
oxymoron? On offense neither would have been as big as they were without the
other. Hansen was a huge threat running or throwing the ball, and when he did
throw it, his eyes were always looking for Shumway. I don't think you can
say one athlete is superior to the other, they both play different positions and
have different builds and techniques that makes them unique to their own game.
Although I agree with one poster that suggested that Hansen will be on the
defensive side of the ball. I am a UCLA fan and I would hate the thought of
having to face Hansen and that wicked hard hitting #4 Brian Blechen. Those two
in the deep would bring some serious pain to QB's and WR's alike. I
hope my Bruins can get out of their funk but that would be two mean DB's
for the Utes. Congrats to Shumway and Hansen, I wish them the best in their
Why on earth would the DNews mention internal family rifts? This is poor, poor
form and completely avoid of the news that he has signed an athletic
scholarship.Good luck to this young man at BYU.
This is the last piece of the puzzle needed for another National Championship.
Talon's dad is a great guy from a tremendous family of his own. I played HS
ball with Jay. In addition to being the studentbody president, he was an
excellent kicker and a good athlete. He made himself into the valuable deep
snapper on the '84 national championship team. Best wishes to both Jay and
his son. Great choice to be a Cougar!
@Utah'95"Scout gave them both 3 stars, but rated Hansen the #44
OLB, and Shumway the #91 WR."U may want to tell Hansen you are
moving him to LB, and see how quickly he heads South. He went to Utah to play
QB, not LB. Where did Scout rate him as a QB?Your comparisons are
meaningless. Both are incredible athletes and will likely make an impact. I
wouldn't be surprised if either of them ended up playing a different
position, since both are very capable.
Tanner Mangum throwing to Josh Weeks, Dylan Collie and Talon Shumway is going to
capture the headlines in four or five years.
DuckhunterFrankly utah is more upset they didn't get Shumway
than BYU is about Hansen.Give me a break.
RE: Utah'95Thank you for posting on these boards. It is nice
to read posts from a rational and civil fan, even if you do cheer for the wrong
Duckhunter,Thank you for the clarification of your earlier
statement, but some of the "measurables" you mentioned aren't
posted on the recruiting sites yet.By no means do I believe that the
recruiting sites' are infallible in their evaluations of the players, but
their opinions shouldn't be dismissed too lightly.As I said, I
look forward to reading ESPN's evaluation of him. Maybe they will agree
with you on your comparison of the two athletes in question...I have
no problem with Shumway "dreaming" of playing for BYU. I just wish he
would dream bigger and play for the Utes!
@Utah'95I didn't say Shumway was a better football player
than Hansen, Hansen was Mr. Football for the state this year. I said Shumway is
a better athlete and he is. In all the measurable attributes of an athlete
Shumway is better, speed, quickness, vertical, etc.Shumway's
sophomore year he played wr, and rb, as well as defense for Lone Peak. He also
started at qb, and won all the games he started, when Hansen was injured his jr.
year. He is much more versatile. Both BYU and utah offered him as a
sophomore and utah recruited him very hard, they wanted him badly. He had a
rough patch over the situation with his dad and I think for a time he wanted to
not have anything to do with his dad and considered not going to BYU but BYU had
been his dream since he was a child so he obviously came back to that.He was injured last year which is probably why he doesn't have full
recruiting grades yet. That will change this season. Remember Talon also has D1
basketball offer's. That is the quality of athlete he is.
@slsTalon's father is Jay Shumway. He was a long snapper at BYU
in the mid 80's.
@Cougar PassionYes I know the details and no I will not post them
here.@jennyYou in particular don't know anything
about either of them. I coached them both, in multiple sports over many years.
I've known both since they were in 4th grade, Talon's family held him
back in 5th grade which is why he is a year behind Chase in school. Shumway is
definately the superior athlete in all of the measurable attributes. He is
faster than Chase, he is quicker than Chase and his vertical is far superior to
Chase's. That is not selling Chase short who is a terrific athlete and I
have posted that fact on here many times. But simply put Talon is far more
explosive in the measurable athletic attributes. It isn't even debateable.
Hansen is a thicker kid and weighs more, I'd say he is more powerful. Both
are the same height.They are different types of players, Hansen will
become a LB because he has more size. Talon has offensive skills that are top
Congratulations Talon. Good luck in your college career.---------------Duckhunter - don't be offended, but is your
opinion on Shumway being a better athlete than Hansen perhaps biased? Rivals rated Hansen a 5.8 as an "athlete," and Shumway a 5.5 as a
"WR."ESPN gave Hansen a 78, but hasn't awarded a score
to Shumway yet.Scout gave them both 3 stars, but rated Hansen the
#44 OLB, and Shumway the #91 WR.I look forward to reading
ESPN's evaluation of Shumway, but Rivals clearly is more impressed with
Hansen than they are with Shumway.--------------Anyway, good
luck to Shumway, and good luck to both programs!
This whole article is almost unbelievable. According to some of the
self-proclaimed prophets who post on this site there is absolutely no way a high
school recruit would turn down a scholarship offer from a program belonging to
the conference of champions/BCS team/we were once losers now we're in the
club.Nevertheless, good luck with life Talon.
I'm sure Utah wanted Shumway but it sounds like there was some hesitancy.
They may look back and wish they'd have cared a little more and I hope for
Shumway's sake that's how his collegiate career turns out.Most
likely Utah knew he was headed to BYU all along which is why he felt Utah
didn't show him the same kind of love.Bottom line ... congrats to
Shumway and the Cougs. Utah probably would've liked him but won't
won't lose sleep over it. The loser here is USU, I'm sure they'd
have loved to have him suit up for them.
Writing that he is not that good or that Utah did not really want him
---After--- he has decided to go to BYU. Very funny...and telling.Utah
did want Talon badly and they get a little egg in the face for losing out to BYU
on this one. He is one of the top in-state recruits for 2013 and someone who
Utah offered early and went after aggressively.Great get for the
Welcome Talon! Enjoy your mission and we look forward to having you with us
when you return.
@Duckhunter"Frankly utah is more upset they didn't get
Shumway than BYU is about Hansen."Another sneaky late jab by the
Duck!Yeah, clearly BYU's offensive system wouldn't fit a
player like Hansen. It's clearly setup for a pocket passer to succeed, not
a dual-threat QB like Hansen. There's not a chance BYU would have given a
kid with those tools an opportunity to play QB.Signed Riley
Nelson!The truth that Duck can't admit is that Hansen is a
better version of Nelson, and would be able to do even more than Riley has been
as far as an offensive scheme goes. Only trouble there is he chose
to play at Utah, where he'll likely be moved to defense after his mission,
instead of accepting BYU's BIG late push to bring him in after they saw how
Nelson was successful with similar skills.
Who am I sir? If the Desnews predicts both Utah and BYU at 8-4,
which 8-4 record is better?
This guy down the street told me he's as good as Austin Collie.
I don't think it was tacky to mention Talon's relationship with his
father, but I'm surprised that the article didn't say more about the
father's playing days at BYU. Who was Talon Shumway's father?
Don't sell him too short, I'm sure there was a good reason Utah
Talon,Good Luck at the Y! Asise from the one game next September -
I wish you success. Looking ahead the only way the Y will affect the U football
program will be in recruiting, IMO. And if the past couple of years recruiting
results are indicative of the future both programs will be able to compete
favorably against their scheduled opponents. (I believe the Dnews predicted an
8 win - 4 loss record for both next year.)
Nice get! I was really hoping that BYU was going to get a good WR in this class
and Talon fits BYUs system perfect. 6'3" and athletic, after the
Hoffman/Apo years it will be nice to see Talon Shumway and Josh Weeks lined up
on the same field. And that being said, the shots at Utah really
aren't necessary. Utah is a Pac-12 school and will have athletic skill
players that probably wouldn't consider BYU as their first choice. Now,
THAT being said, Utah fans, stop acting like you didn't want him. I would
have loved to hear what Utah fans would have said about him if he had actually
chosen Utah. We would have heard all kinds of how Utah is going to keep
dominating in state recruiting and get all the best in-state players and what
not, but Ute fans down play it like its no big deal. Either way,
I'm sure Utah will find a way to get other recruits, and BYU will benefit a
lot from Talon's athletic ability. I encourage BYU fans to check out his
YouTube highlights if you haven't seen them. Go Cougars!
Duckhunter:"...yes utah recruited him very, very hard...Frankly
utah is more upset they didn't get Shumway than BYU is about
Hansen."What a frantic and emotional thing to say. Let's
see what Talon Shumway and the article had to say about Utah's recruitment
of him:"'I just didn't feel as wanted at Utah,'
said Shumway."Whoops! You so desperately wanted to gloat, but
Shumway HIMSELF stole your thunder. How devastating for you. I just don't
understand how that quote so difficult for you to comprehend? Was it because
you're so WAC-ish and mid-majorey?
I agree with Howard. Putting in print comments about internal family strife is
very, very tacky. Bad decision, DN.
Cougar Passion - please don't go there.
Come on Ute fans. You win some you lose some. Utah wanted this kid, he chose
BYU. Selling him short just makes you look foolish.
Duck - You're the only person on earth who thinks Talon is better than
Hansen. They're not even close.
So. . . are we allowed to discuss what the issues are between him and his dad?
And does anybody know?
Good for him. I don't think Kyle will be crying himself to sleep over this
one. Doesn't sting! Good luck to Talon.
@lynnardYou don't have any clue what you are talking about.
Talon is a better athlete than Hansen. Faster, quicker, much better vertical.
But they are different and will excell at different things. Hansen is a thicker
more muscularly built kid than Talon is, Talon is leaner type of muscle but is
just off the charts quick and his vertical is around 40" and is much more
explosive than Chase. Hansen is on his way to defense wereas Talon will be an
offensive weapon who will use his size and jumping ability to go get the ball.
This is a great commit for BYU but really it was expected. Talons
life long dream has been to play at BYU so this really isn't a kid utah had
much of a chance to get. By the way utah-hawaii both schools offered him as a
sophomore and yes utah recruited him very, very hard. I'll guaranty they
are not happy about this but you win some you lose some and this is one they
lost. Frankly utah is more upset they didn't get Shumway than BYU is about
Talon (great name!) is not the highest ranked recruit, but I think BYU is
somewhat like Boise State in the fact that the end result is often more than
expected by the supposed quality of the players (the whole being greater than
the sum of its parts).Good luck Talon, I hope you will be able to
reach beyond others expectations!
Welcome aboard Talon. I look forward to watching you play.
I don't think the U will lose any sleep over Shumway. Utah has some serious
talent headed to SLC. Utah is gonna be DANGEROUS this year. Goooooooo Utes!
Congrats to Talon. Seems like a great kid
@Max-was-rightThis doesn't sting if you are a Utes fan. Not the same
talent as his QB from last year was. This kid could be a good college TE but has
been hurt most of his high school career. I don't think this is the type of
player the Utes are looking for to play WR in the PAC-
Welcome to BYU. And let's not brag, he wasn't THAT big of a recruit.
"Without providing specifics, Shumway doesn’t have the best
relationship with his father and was bound and determined not to follow his
father’s lead in accepting BYU’s offer."*********A new low for the DN...cheapshoting private family relationships for the
purpose of portraying BYU as having overcome a difficult hurdle in the
recruiting process.This young man was destined for BYU from birth...
no recruiting required.
Oops, that one sting Ute fans?