Mormon Media Observer: It always comes back to Joseph Smith

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  • Mormoncowboy Provo, Ut
    April 11, 2012 1:18 p.m.

    Sarah Nichole:

    The year Joseph Smith said that was 1838, during the early Nauvoo period. It was recorded in "official" Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith. This happens to have been many years after which Joseph Smith had already made something of a public splash, and much had already been said about him, "...both good and evil". The whole farm boy thing just didn't happen. After all, whoever may have "hooted with derision" against Joseph Smith during his "farm boy" years, did so without leaving much of a recorded trace of their "hooting".

    Additionally there is nothing remarkable at all about his "prophecy". Indeed, if I were to aggregate all of the comments that had ever been made about me, I could draw a line down the middle and find that categorically each of them do the same for me, and thus it is true that it shall be both good and evil spoken of me as well. It's about as profound as stating that "sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose"...with the exception that many Mormons seem to be strangely impressed with Joseph Smiths prediction of the obvious.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    April 11, 2012 9:06 a.m.

    RE: Bill in Nebraska, That is why we need prophets and apostels today to lay aside these differences of interpretations. OK, Apostle George Q. Cannon in 1864,The day is near when a Temple shall be reared in the center state of Zion, and the Lord has said his glory shall rest on that house in this generation that is the generation in which the revelation was given upwards of thirty years ago.
    Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of one's own interpretation (2 Peter 1:20.) No prophecy is to be interpreted privately (false teachers, JS).The Holy Spirit and the Christian Church should be included in the process.

    RE: Sarah Nichole How many of these supposed prophets are known by name all around the world today? Just Joseph Smith. Other 19th century eastern non-traditional church leaders.

    Mary Baker Eddy, Christian Science by the Church of Christ, Scientist, (non-trinitrian).
    Ellen G White, Seventh-day Adventist Church.

    Charles Taze Russell Jehovah's Witnesses and many independent Bible Student groups(Christodelphians) emerged after his death.(non-trinitarian)

    short list.

  • conservative scientist Lindon, UT
    April 11, 2012 8:54 a.m.

    This whole rant is really further supporting evidence of Joseph Smith's prophetic call. Joseph Smith recorded revelation regarding himself "Fools shall have thee in derision". The recent rant certainly helps fulfill this prophecy.

    Several commentators above talk about how the prophecy of his name being known for good and evil all around the world would apply to any conman and wasn't really prophecy. I challenge anyone to find a founder of another recent religion as well known or controversial as Joseph Smith. No one even comes close. In a recent D.N. article, it was stated that the Wikipedia entry of Joseph Smith had been altered more than any other entry. Con men come and go and are generally shortly after forgotten, but Joseph Smith will continue to inspire believers and also to inspire the wrath and hatred of his detractors for many more years to come. He is certainly not your run-of-the-mill con man.

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    April 11, 2012 8:02 a.m.

    @John Pack Lambert ... Re "I also will challenge anyone to produce any media discussion of William Miller in the last decade."

    See 'God's Strange Work: William Miller and the End of the World" by David Rowe. Published by Eerdmans Publishing in 2008.

  • Tornogal LITTLE ROCK, AR
    April 11, 2012 7:11 a.m.

    @ Twin Lights,

    Carl Sagan and Steven Hawking would hardly credit the Book of Moses as "putting a marker out there." Similarly, there were several ancient predictions on exo-planets:

    The worlds come into being as follows: many bodies of all sorts and shapes move from the infinite into a great void; they come together there and produce a single whirl, in which, colliding with one another and revolving in all manner of ways, they begin to separate like to like.
    Leucippus (~480-420 B.C.)

    In some worlds there is no Sun and Moon, in others they are larger than in our world, and in others more numerous. In some parts there are more worlds, in others fewer (...); in some parts they are arising, in others failing. There are some worlds devoid of living creatures or plants or any moisture.
    Democritus (~460-370 B.C.)

    There are infinite worlds both like and unlike this world of ours. For the atoms being infinite in number, as was already proven, (...) there nowhere exists an obstacle to the infinite number of worlds.
    Epicurus (341-270 B.C.)

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    April 11, 2012 5:05 a.m.

    @Semper Fi ... Re 1st question: Because viewers would rather see people hocking a lock of Elvis' hair at Pawn Stars, the 98th expose' of what REALLY happened to the Titanic, or are still trying to find out if aliens built the Pyramids. Re 2nd question... Well, if there are none, as you say, BYUtv can't very well show them.

    I think the type of faith that depends upon a television documentary won't bear much fruit, anyway.

  • Sarah Nichole West Jordan, UT
    April 11, 2012 3:24 a.m.

    Something that a lot of people on this thread are forgetting is that in the early 1800s, during the second Great Awakening, literally hundreds of people claimed to have visions and started up their own religons. Dozens of "new scriptures" were supposedly written. People were claiming all kinds of things. Practically every large town had their own latter-day prophet. Joseph's claims were nothing unusual, nothing dramatic, nothing exciting and strange. They were commonplace, and laughed off by the majority of people in the country.

    How many of these supposed prophets are known by name all around the world today? Just Joseph Smith.

    At the time of his revealing that prophecy, that his name would be known for good and evil all throughout the world, people hooted with derision. It was next to impossible. For a farm kid with three years of formal education to be known all over the world for more than a century after his death was lucicrous. People thought he was this insane megalomaniac who would be forgotten within ten years.

    And yet, he was right.

    And nobody ever mentions those hundreds of others who claimed the exact same things Joseph did.

  • Semper Fi Bakersfield, CA
    April 10, 2012 6:02 p.m.

    First question: Why are there no Nat'l Geographic, Smithsonian, History or Documentary Channel specials on Joseph Smith's great discovery and contributions from the Book of Mormon?

    That even secularists, agnostics and atheistic academics still utilize the Bible in their archeological research should help fill in the blanks for some here.

    Second: Why are there next to none of the documentaries referred to in #1 on the BYU channel?

    If the world knows little about Mormons, it's not for lack of media and technology.

  • Tzadikim Bakersfield, CA
    April 10, 2012 5:53 p.m.

    @LValfre- don't worry re: the post denials. You must've quoted something accurate, or something that everyone in the 19th century knew was preached... but is subsequently in question. Or something in that harbinger of explicit duplicity, The Journal of Discourses.

    I just recited an actual conversation between myself and Dr. Hugh Nibley, on his opinion of Joseph's translation skills. It hasn't seen daylight either. Does it depend on which censors are on duty? 'Cuz it sure doesn't comply equitably on a daily basis.

    I tried to post a famous one-sentence quote from Joseph Smith's own funeral sermon given for member, King Follette. But it never has been allowed. Even its reference gets replies like, "who knows if it was transcribed accurately?". To which I reply, "If it was good enough for Truman Madsen, Hugh Nibley, Cleon Skousen, et al, it's okay by me."

    Joseph Smith founded a religion that was so different from the Biblical one that 182 years later books on Mormonism are still in the cult section of any Christian bookstore in the world. Even Barnes and Noble has a separate section for them. Check it out.

  • fibonacci2112 Langley, VA
    April 10, 2012 5:24 p.m.

    @LValfre, Just because you want something to be false doesn't make it false.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    April 10, 2012 3:20 p.m.

    I have rarely if ever heard ill spoken of Buddha. I also will challenge anyone to produce any media discussion of William Miller in the last decade.

  • Mormoncowboy Provo, Ut
    April 10, 2012 3:12 p.m.

    "O'Donnell's inaccurate allegations last week on MSNBC aren't the first time he has spoken ill of the Prophet."

    Based on what I have seen from O'Donnell's comments, the only way Mr. Lane William's could justify with integrity that O'Donnell's comments were innaccurate, would be through some serious hair splitting over technical but ultimately irrelevant points. Certainly O'Donnell's characterization of the incident between Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith in the barn wasn't worded in manner that is respectful of LDS sensibilities, but it is still generally accepted (we can always doubt the historical record). So to say that it is false is incomplete without saying why the record shouldn't be trusted. Mr. Williams has adopted the popular protocol of the Church when confronted on challenging Mormon history. Call it "inaccurate" without providing explanation. Why? Because if he were to correct what he felt were the errors in O'Donnell's telling, by reporting the "accurate" history, he would still be left with a view of history and the prevailing evidence that undermines Joseph Smith's credibility.

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    April 10, 2012 3:00 p.m.

    I would like to take this opportunity to state my testimony about Joseph Smith and the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I know this to be true based on two things:

    1. Having tested the principles and having found them to be the ONLY way to find true happiness.

    2. Having received personal revelation from our Saviour, Jesus Christ, that Joseph Smith was a true Prophet and that The Book of Mormon is the true word of God.

    I know many other arguments and evidences of the truthfulness of the restored Gospel. But, when all is said and done, it is through a witness from God that we know it is true. As "Straightpath" writes, "All the sophistry in the world will not convince me otherwise"

  • Straitpath PROVO, UT
    April 10, 2012 1:40 p.m.

    I know through personal, unexpected revelation that Joseph Smith is a prophet. All the sophistry in the world will not convince me otherwise.

  • johnnylingo62 Gray, TN
    April 10, 2012 12:59 p.m.

    Prophecy of JS in 1832 (Doctrine and Covenants 87):
    "Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
    "And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
    "For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations."

    The Civil War began at Ft. Sumter, SC in Apr. 11, 1861

    Was that just a good guess?

    And 43 years later we have World War I and 20 yrs later, we have WWII, and the Korean War, Vietnam War, Desert Storm, Iraq, Afghanistan...

    Sounds very prophetic to me

  • Getting it Right Sunnyvale, CA
    April 10, 2012 12:46 p.m.

    "The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done."

    Prophecies are going to be fulfilled...

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    April 10, 2012 12:33 p.m.

    No the old doctrine has not been disproved at all. The Book of Mormon clearly states that the Nephites and Lamanites are of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. Not that they are Jews. The only thing changed is that we took out of the title page which was drafted and used well after the first publications of the Book of Mormon where it stated that the Lamanites were the principal descendents. This was proven untrue but no where does it diminish what the Book of Mormon teaches. The Book of Mormon and the Church continues to teach that the Lamanites and Nephites are of the House of Israel. This basically means that one can be Hebrew and not be Jewish, but one must be Jewish to be Hebrew. This is not new. This has always been taught for as long as I can remember (60 years).

    Sharrona what you site is difference in interpretations of the same scriptures. I and the LDS Church interprets the same scriptures completely differently as do most preachers interpret the same scriptures differently. That is why we need prophets and apostels today to lay aside these differences of interpretations.

  • Midvaliean MIDVALE, UT
    April 10, 2012 12:24 p.m.

    Polygamy and the way Joseph Smith did it will always bring question to the church. There is no getting around it, its too easy to spin that story a lot of ways. And the Church has its way, and those who read history have plenty of other spins to choose from.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    April 10, 2012 9:48 a.m.


    Voltaire would not be the first to write of folks from another planet (as a literary device) so I don't think I would cast the prophetic mantle upon him.

    My point was somewhat different. I can recall when science was unsure if we would ever discover any planets outside of our own solar system. There was the thought we might and that we might not - that our solar system might be something truly unique. Or that if there were planets, they would be rather rare. We simply did not know.

    The statement in Moses threw a huge marker out there not that there would be some planets, but vast numbers of them. We are only now (in just the last few years) beginning to see the truth of this statement confirmed.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    April 10, 2012 8:43 a.m.

    Re; Bill in Nebraska, Second Coming never was meant to occur only that many would live to see it. The question is living as it doesn't actually mean this life.
    Orson Pratt wrote in 1874 that, ”God said in the year 1832,… that before this generation should pass away, a house of the Lord should be built in that(Jackson)county and to build a Temple there before the generation that was living forty-two years ago has all passed away, well then the time must be pretty near when we shall begin that work.

    RE: Getting it Right Articles of Faith #9, "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."(And Messiah’s second coming)Deleted from original AofF.

    The AofF the original Edition, #8 We believe in the Word of God recorded in the Bible; we also believe the Word of God recorded in the Book of Mormon, and in all other good books. Check #8 current edition.

    April 10, 2012 8:00 a.m.

    To Non-believer in Park City: You are incorrect about the so-called glass looking. There was never a conviction against Joseph Smith. You are simply wrong. The so-called evidence consists of the constable's and justice's bills of expenses. The bills show only that:

    1. The date of the trial was July 1, 1830.
    2. The charge was being a disorderly person.
    3. Twelve witnesses were called.
    4. Joseph Smith was held for one day and was fed three meals.
    5. Ten subpoenas were issued.

    No record exists of any conviction. There was none.

  • t702 Las Vegas, NV
    April 10, 2012 7:40 a.m.

    You're exactly right L Valfre! you opinion is exactly that, it doesn't mean you have the truth!

  • iron&clay RIVERTON, UT
    April 10, 2012 7:05 a.m.

    All people should read the Book of Mormon with real intent.

    They should do this BEFORE they try to explain to others what they think they know about Joseph Smith.

  • Tornogal LITTLE ROCK, AR
    April 10, 2012 6:39 a.m.

    Twin Lights: "Actually not a prophecy from Joseph but one which came through him is Moses 1:33 which states, in part 'And worlds without number have I created.' This is just now becoming understood as true."

    Well, you better then declare Voltaire as your prophet. He first wrote of life on other planets in 1752.

  • LJo Orem, UT
    April 9, 2012 10:45 p.m.

    LValfre......and the opposite can be said about your feelings......Just because you want something to be false, doesn't mean that it is.

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    April 9, 2012 9:47 p.m.

    Red Corvett: First off he wasn't convicted. If you go through it you will find that the verdict was never proven. In fact, if you really cared to research you will find that if this had actually been proven it would have been used in the trial of 1833 but wasn't. WHY, because no such trial ever took place. The so called trial was nothing more than a hearing and no guilty verdict ever read. Fairlds has a great answer to your comments.

    I'll take that over yours any day.

    Reformed Egyptian has yet to be proven, not disproven.

    Lamanites reflect to anyone who were not Nephites. Also, the Lamanites are of the House of Joseph, not Judah. Again a falsehood the critics want to use.

    In fact, again FAIRLDS has a answer in relation to the Book of Abraham that shows Joseph actually got it right more than he got it wrong. What you are saying is again a falsehood.

    Second Coming never was meant to occur only that many would live to see it. The question is living as it doesn't actually mean this life. A thing critics don't understand.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    April 9, 2012 8:53 p.m.


    "Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is."

    Agreed. I came to the church and did not want it to be true nor for Joseph to be a prophet. But the testimony came. So here I am some 37 years later.


    Actually not a prophecy from Joseph but one which came through him is Moses 1:33 which states, in part "And worlds without number have I created." This is just now becoming understood as true.

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    April 9, 2012 8:43 p.m.

    Re: LValfre CHICAGO, IL

    People who think God is going to twist their arms and force them to believe in His prophets are sorely mistaken. Those who look will find and those who refuse to look are quite free to disbelieve.

    It is interesting however to note the ever increasing rate at which LDS temples are being built all over the world. That was a prophesy by Joseph Smith.

  • iron&clay RIVERTON, UT
    April 9, 2012 7:02 p.m.

    The exposure of bigotry in the media such as O'Donnell is the subject of this article and the fulfillment of Josephs prophecy.

    There have been many jumping in and impaling themselves on the sharp sword of speaking ill of joseph Smith and thusly fulfilling the intent of the article and the prophecy.

  • RG Buena Vista, VA
    April 9, 2012 6:50 p.m.

    I am very impressed by the prophecies of Joseph Smith regarding himself, that his name should be known all over the world. And I am disappointed that people can be so dense as to find no meaning in this. At the time he said this, it was most unlikely. Furthermore, the Book of Mormon prophecies about itself too, that it will go to the world, which it has. That seemed at one time most unlikely as well. The posting of many who think it is just a coincidence (or it is what any con man would say) just shows how blind people can be. If the Kirtland bank was just a scam, why did JS lose more money than just about anyone else? How many con men die for their beliefs?

  • EightOhOne St. George, UT
    April 9, 2012 6:25 p.m.

    @ ADN

    is hard work, honesty, high morals, and family values only exclusive to the lds??? same can be said about the amish, or any other religious group for that matter.

    @ zoar63

    here we go with the christ/joseph comparisons. i mean, i understand joseph is held in high regard in the church (praise to the man, right?), and that even jesus himself wasn't able to keep together the church like joseph could, but wow!!!!!!!!!!

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    April 9, 2012 5:18 p.m.

    @A voice of reason
    "A few historically held the priesthood before, it just wasn't standard policy. Critics may not like it, but this fact disproves claims that the church was racist solely because of the policy. "

    Actually I think that would make the policy more likely to be racist in origin because the policy had to be instituted by Brigham Young and wasn't a pre-existing condition when the church was restored by Joseph Smith.

    "one of them is the quality of people who believe that he is a prophet and that have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. "

    Decent people (of which I am well aware of plenty in the LDS church) can be wrong, false things can still be inspirational and a source of good, and I'm pretty sure you believe there are decent, quality people of other faiths.

  • Getting it Right Sunnyvale, CA
    April 9, 2012 4:59 p.m.

    Articles of Faith #9,
    "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

    Everything will be revealed in God's due time...

  • LValfre CHICAGO, IL
    April 9, 2012 4:47 p.m.

    Wow everyone jumped on here about Joseph Smith and I've tried to comment three times and keep getting denied ....

    Every rationalization I hear on this thread for LDS and JS being the truth just sounds desperate and irrational to me. Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is.

  • Tornogal LITTLE ROCK, AR
    April 9, 2012 3:59 p.m.

    Voice of Reason: "If I fortold that tomorrow we'll all have air to breath, it would be no different. Joseph Smith may have actually seen the future and you nor I can prove or disprove it. But comparing him to a con man is even more logically fallacious by its implication than people calling Joseph Smith's statement a prophecy."

    Then by your reasoning, the burden is on anyone to prove anyone who foretells even the most mundane truths is NOT a prophet. By that standard, anyone who guesses the sun will rise tomorrow is a prophet. I think that is absurd.n I would be very interested in reading even one complete prophecy Joseph Smith rendered.

    And to many, Joseph Smith WAS a con man. See: Glass-looking, Kirtland Safety Society, Kinderhook Plates, Book of Abraham, Fanny Alger, among others.

    And ADN: You seem to argue that since many Latter-day Saints are good people, someone they declare a prophet have been one. Let me submit that there are millions (billions?) of good, honest, hard working people who are every bit as good, honest, and hard working as Mormons. That does not make their spiritual leader a prophet.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    April 9, 2012 2:46 p.m.

    RE: Moontan, Ignore critics until they apply their objections equally. True, you should test all things including false prophecy.
    That seer… his name shall be called Joseph(Smith), and it shall be after the name of his father. ( Genesis 50:33 JST)? JS, prophecy about himself.

    A Marvelous work and wonder.((Isaiah 29:14 JST)But the book(BoM) shall be delivered unto a man(JS).verse 16…by the power of Christ…verse 17,three witnesses, verse 19,…many witnesses as seemeth good. Both prophecies NOT found in Greek Septuagint(Apostles Bible) ,Dead Sea(Isaiah) Scrolls.

    Re: zoar63, He even went as far as to say the reason Jesus was killed was because he had so many wives.
    Jedediah M. Grant, A belief in the doctrine of plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were “Mormons”. (JoD v.1 p 346)

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    April 9, 2012 1:41 p.m.

    That should read "...sins committed by Prophets and Kings He anointed like..."

  • zoar63 Mesa, AZ
    April 9, 2012 1:34 p.m.

    Joseph Smith was a liar, a con men and whatever else his detractors say about him. I find that amazing seeing that Jesus Christ, the source of Christianity was accused of the same by the religious officials of his day. He was also tried and executed by the Roman government. Later on there was a Roman physician by the name of Celsus who published unflattering writings about Christ and Christianity that remarkably mirror what today is being written about Joseph Smith and Latter-day Saints. Some of them being He ran with a group of men who were deceivers, His miracles were nothing more than tricks that he learned while he was in Egypt. He was the son of a roman soldier and Christianity was a religion that only women children and fools embraced. He even went as far as to say the reason Jesus was killed was because he had so many wives

  • non believer PARK CITY, UT
    April 9, 2012 1:33 p.m.

    In 1961, Hugh Nibley authored a book entitled The Mythmakers, in which he ventured to boldly debunk assertions that Joseph Smith had committed, or had been arrested for, the crime of "glass-looking." Nibley went so far as to declare that if, in fact, Smith was actually proven guilty of such nefarious activity, it would constitute the most damning blow that could be imagined to Smith's claim of divine prophetship.

    Well guess what, in 1971 these records were discovered and it is fact that Joseph Smith was found guilty of being a glass looker 4 years before the golden plates were supposedly given to him by the Angel........ He also failed to tell Emma his first wife that he had married another woman......

    The man was a liar and a convicted con-artist! So as far as being considered a Prophet? That is a far reach!

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    April 9, 2012 1:25 p.m.

    Critics of Joseph aren't consistent at all in their criticisms, and that is more revealing than their complaints. "Joseph had more than one wife! The Church can't be true!" ignoring that David, Solomon, etc., had many more than Joseph. Do they therefore reject the Old Testament? No, that criteria applies only to Joseph. "Joseph did treasure hunting before becoming a Prophet! Proof that the BoM was made up!" Right, and the Apostle Paul killed Christians before becoming an Apostle. Do they therefore reject the New Testament? No; again, that criteria applies only to Joseph. "Joseph shot 3 men in Carthage jail! Proof that he wasn't a Prophet!" Oh, good grief. Moses and Joshua ordered the deaths of and killed thousands of men, women and children. Shall we write-off monotheism? No, not at all: only Joseph is expected to have forsaken self-defense. And on and on it goes.

    God dealt with sins committed by Prophets like Moses, David, Solomon, etc. Please notice that that means Prophets do sin, and God acts accordingly. If a Prophet can be perfect, then Christ's Atonement was for naught.

    Ignore critics until they apply their objections equally.

  • ADN Weiser, ID
    April 9, 2012 12:43 p.m.

    Before you can dismiss the prophet Joseph Smith as a prophet you must acount for many things, one of them is the quality of people who believe that he is a prophet and that have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. The LDS poeple, generally speaking, are quality people who work hard, try to as honest as they can, have high standards and morals, family values, service oriented and religious. By thier fruits ye shall know them can also be applied to the type of people who follow.

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    April 9, 2012 12:30 p.m.

    Red Corvette,

    This should precede my first comment:

    What is inaccurate?

    1. He accused Joseph Smith, Romney and the Church of being racist, and Romney of believing himself racially superior.

    2. He accused the Church of changing policy for political convenience.

    3. He stated blacks couldn't be members- because "in Heaven they turned from God."

    4. He accused Joseph Smith of being a "lying and fraudulent criminal"

    5. He accused Joseph Smith and the church of supporting slavery.

    6. He stated that Pat Buchanan didn't believe in anything Romney does.


    Logically disproved:

    1. Others' mentality are all subjective and not provable- And if the 'proof' is our doctrines or policies, refer to my previous comment.

    2. Again, subjective.

    3. Membership isn't the same as holding the priesthood, being saved, etc. Those who turned from God didn't even come to Earth by our doctrines.

    4. Joseph Smith's was never convicted, nor proven a liar.

    5. With what evidence? D&C 134:12 and nearly the entire Book of Mormon disprove this.

    6. Subjective.


    Ironically his statements prove himself more of a "fraudulent liar" than any historical evidence regarding Joseph Smith.

    The truth withstands every last criticism.

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    April 9, 2012 11:19 a.m.

    Red Corvette,


    1. A few historically held the priesthood before, it just wasn't standard policy. Critics may not like it, but this fact disproves claims that the church was racist solely because of the policy. Especially when there are others who couldn't or can't hold the preisthood. Whether it be women, children, Levites, or some others. Again, critics may not like it, but these are the facts. Ignoring them for convenience is illogical and ironically prejudicial.

    2. Our very official, very public, and cornerstone book of our beliefs states "he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile."

    So even the possible criticisms he could have simply implied without saying are completely unwarranted.



    If I fortold that tomorrow we'll all have air to breath, it would be no different. Joseph Smith may have actually seen the future and you nor I can prove or disprove it. But comparing him to a con man is even more logically fallacious by its implication than people calling Joseph Smith's statement a prophecy.

  • iron&clay RIVERTON, UT
    April 9, 2012 10:42 a.m.

    If Lawrence O'Donnell had an agenda against a Muslim candidate he would say crude things about Abraham taking his wife's handmaid Hagar to wife. Oh, that's right, it is only politically correct to make crude false statements about the American religion founded by Joseph Smith.

  • Tornogal LITTLE ROCK, AR
    April 9, 2012 10:20 a.m.

    Now let's think about this. Suppose--just suppose--Joseph Smith made up the whole thing. Wouldn't part of his assurances to his followers be "Now they'll say bad things about me, but hang in there, it is all true!"

    Believe in him or don't, but there is little "prophecy" in the warning that his name will be had for good and bad. Any con man does the same thing.

  • OnlyInUtah Cottonwood Heights, UT
    April 9, 2012 10:18 a.m.

    I echo these comments by the author:

    "Let me be one to speak of Brother Joseph, too. He is a prophet for the ages. Let me raise my voice and my heartfelt witness for this great man. Joseph Smith provided the world the remarkable Book of Mormon and guided the restoration of priesthood authority and the restoration of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    With the help of God and Jesus Christ, he provided a true miracle, for a world in desperate need of one.

    Hail to the Prophet. May Joseph Smith's name and fame continue to grow."

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    April 9, 2012 10:05 a.m.

    "It is with Joseph Smith that the rub of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints lies"

    I first thought this should have referenced the Book of Mormon instead of Joseph Smith (even though both points go hand in hand). But after reading this, I realize it is far more accurate.


    "We have basic cornerstones on which this great latter-day Church has been established by the Lord and built, “fitly framed together.”

    They are absolutely fundamental to this work—the very foundation, anchors on which it stands...I mention first the chief cornerstone, whom we recognize and honor as the Lord Jesus Christ. The second is the vision given the Prophet Joseph Smith when the Father and the Son appeared to him. The third is the Book of Mormon, which speaks as a voice from the dust with the words of ancient prophets declaring the divinity and reality of the Savior of mankind. The fourth is the priesthood with all of its powers and authority, whereby men act in the name of God in administering the affairs of His kingdom."

    -President Gordon B. Hinckley

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    April 9, 2012 9:23 a.m.

    @Red Corvette
    Joseph Smith could not have founded/restored (obviously people disagree as to which it is) the religion to cover up his goings-on (whatever they were) with Fanny Alger because that didn't happen until several years after he founded/restored the church. If he had said that it led to polygamy that would've been more accurate since polygamy came slightly after that.


    "If Joseph Smith didn't translate ancient plates and if he made up the Book of Mormon out of whole cloth, O'Donell has something of a point. Brother Joseph would have to be a fraud."

    That's kinda the rub isn't it? It's really hard to have a neutral stance on Joseph Smith. If he'd just been inspired then you could at least have a position of "well he was wrong... but he's still a decent guy" but when he has plates involved, that's something that's either happened or didn't.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    April 9, 2012 9:11 a.m.

    Anyone who founds a religion is going to have good and bad things said about them. That's not prophecy, that's just normal.