High-rise sniper kills at least 58 at Las Vegas concert

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  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Oct. 4, 2017 2:08 p.m.

    in 1940 Nazi's thought nothing of gunning down Jews into open pits. The Nazi mindset is alive and well with ISIS and I think at the end of the day this Vegas killer was part of ISIS. ISIS has already claimed him. It takes a darkness of the mind so remote and incomprehensible to murder people from a hotel window -- people you don't know or care to know. We try to explain why he did what he did but we fail -- there are no rational answers anymore than trying to explain the holocost of the Jews by the Nazi's. Suffice to say it's not worth trying to understand but it is worth being prepared to save yourself and your family going forward. This won't be the last act of mass violence as I suspect ISIS will watch and learn from this event and plan another similar. If you want to increase your chances of safety then arm yourself first of all and be efficient with a gun. Second say clear of big crowds -- this is impossible of course but at least limit what you do in crowds. Finally just error on the side of safety in everything you do. At the end of the day there is no 100% safe place to hide but being prepared to defend yourself is a pretty good idea.

  • silo Sandy, UT
    Oct. 3, 2017 7:13 p.m.

    @worf

    You initially claimed...

    "Media is already blaming Trump."

    When asked for sources, you replied...

    "Do the homework! I'm not going to mention it at this time. "

    Translation: You have absolutely zero evidence that the "media blamed Trump" for anything relating to this shooting.

    That's ironic, because Trump supporter Pat Roberston specifically blamed Trump critics for the shooting.

  • Surf is Up Miami, FL
    Oct. 3, 2017 12:27 p.m.

    @one vote "Why does one law abiding citizen need enough weapons, including automated weapons, to arm a well regulated militia?"

    Because he/she can.

    I own quite a few weapons myself. I've never used them except to deter a few would-be burglars from my home.

    There are lots and lots and lots of high powered, almost military grade weapons owned by private citizens in this country. While even one incident like what happened in Vegas is too many, the number of occurrences vs ownership is very, very low.

    Seems to me that liberals, or those who vote/support liberals are the only ones perpetrating any violence against folks these days.

    I would prefer every person in the country who isn't a felon to own, be trained with, and carry a gun. The country of Switzerland requires it.

    The scum who would prey on others, but who care about dying would certainly think twice about committing a crime. And those who are intent on dying and taking as many as they can with them will have fewer victims.

    I know all of the gun grabbers will never understand this, but an armed and trained public would be much safer. I just would be.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 3, 2017 11:52 a.m.

    To "one vote" maybe he was a collector.

    Also, did you know that guns can be fun to just go and shoot? Guns don't have to be used only for hunting.

    There are sports that involve guns that have nothing to do with killing anything. For instance, you have the winter biathlon where a person cross country skis then shoots at targets. You also have the skeet and trap shooting sports.

    However, since we can't talk to him now and we don't if he was just a gun collector, a hunter, or a collector.

    However, you completely ignored the question I posed to you. Why are you asking why he collects things? Haven't you ever had a collection? Do you not have a music library or video library?

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 3, 2017 11:00 a.m.

    To"redshirt". If a person is buying many attack style weapons designed to kill people and used in military not for hunting, their rights can be infringed and regulated unless they are members of a well regulated militia. One person does not make a militia.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 3, 2017 8:58 a.m.

    To "wide_awake" you can't legally buy a kit that makes a gun fully automatic. There are legal kits that make it easier to fire fast, but not fully automatic.

    To "one vote" why do some people need many cats and pets? Why do some people need as many cars as a small dealership? Why do some people have as many books as a library? Why do some people have as many movies as Netflix?

    Are you seriously asking why some people collect things?

  • wide_awake Montpelier, ID
    Oct. 3, 2017 8:33 a.m.

    To Redshirt:

    "....when he purchased the weapons they were not fully automatic. He modified them to make them fully automatic. "

    Sure, conversion kits are readily available at gun shows to turn semi-automatic rifles or pistols into fully auto killing machines. No questions asked, just how the NRA likes it.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 3, 2017 7:49 a.m.

    Why does one law abiding citizen need enough weapons, including automated weapons, to arm a well regulated militia?

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 3, 2017 7:45 a.m.

    To "wide_awake" when he purchased the weapons they were not fully automatic. He modified them to make them fully automatic. He probably got the instructions off the internet. Just like the people who make illegal drugs do or like people who make explosive devices.

    To "GingerMarshall " if you want to restrict the 2nd Amendment to muzzle loaders, then can we restrict the freedom of press to printed newspapers only. If we limit freedoms to the technology available at the time of the constitution, then we must be fair to all. That means the press should be restricted on the internet, TV, radio, and anything else that didn't exist 250 years ago.

  • SMcloud Sandy, UT
    Oct. 3, 2017 5:17 a.m.

    Hurry! The NRA wants to sell you more guns! That's the answer to every problem! Guns for everyone!

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 11:54 p.m.

    "But lets be really honest, none of the laws out there being debated right now would have stopped this incident. "

    I'll tell you what will dramatically decrease the number of weapons being sold into our society: require gun manufacturers to post bond to cover funeral and medical expenses of victims!

  • worf McAllen, TX
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:56 p.m.

    LOU Montana & silo,

    Do the homework! I'm not going to mention it at this time.

    Divisiveness? After insulting comments toward successful people, and our current president?

  • forget-me-not West Valley City, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:23 p.m.

    In Utah I am a liberal. Elsewhere I would probably be called a moderate.
    Comments in the forum range from repeal the 2nd Amendment to the 2nd A, allows individuals to own assault rifles. Both arguments are ridiculous. Reason is somewhere between the two.
    Advocates for unfetter access to guns always cite " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" from the 2nd A. They always omit, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State." "Well regulated Militia" does not mean a single individual should be able to own 42 guns including assault weapons.
    Since "guns don't kill people; people do," is used to justify private ownership of assault, wouldn't it also be true that nuclear weapons don't kill, people do? Specious argument.
    Pres. Trump proclaims, "Now is not the time to discuss gun control." When is the time? Never in the minds of NRA adherents. Instead, let's ask the
    loved ones of the victims,

  • GingerMarshall Brooklyn, OH
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:12 p.m.

    At the Battle of Concord 700 British troops came upon 77 militiamen.

    Several British volleys were unleashed, when the smoke cleared 8 militiamen lay dead, 9 were wounded, 1 Redcoat was injured.

    700 British troops fired on 77 militiamen... and there were only 17 casualties.

    Last night, one man created nearly 600 casualties in a roughly equal space of time.

    The second amendment was not created with such firepower in mind.

    After Sandy Hook we, as a nation, decided we loved guns more than children and we lost any possible claim that America is intrinsically good.

    We, as a nation, accepted the lie that muzzle loaders are the unquestioned equivalent of AK-47s.

    We, as a nation, accepted the lie that gun violence can't be stopped because the Second Amendment allows everyone to own any gun they want.

  • wrz Springville, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:03 p.m.

    @ConservativeUtahisBest:

    "This type of gun has been banned from the US for years now."

    Uh... The gun is legal. Sez so in the US Constitution's 2nd Amendment. Here it is in pertinent part, in case you've forgotten:

    "... the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

  • AzPete Mesa, AZ
    Oct. 2, 2017 6:34 p.m.

    @wide_awake: "how is it that the shooter -- or anyone, for that matter -- can so easily get their hands on fully automatic weapons of war?"

    It is not easy to LEGALLY get your hands on Class III firearms (machine guns, suppressors, etc.) You must go through a background check. You must have approval from your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer. You must make application to BATFE, including the previous approvals, include a $200 tax stamp fee . . . . . . and wait. It usually takes 5 or 6 months to be processed. When the BATFE approval is received, you must again go through a background check to make sure you are still not a prohibited possessor. Only then can you take possession of your firearm.

    Oh, and don't forget, a LEGAL "fully automatic weapon of war" is not cheap. They can cost as much as $25,000 or more, so that takes "Joe average" out of the running.

    Now ILLEGAL machine guns are another story . . . . . but we already have laws prohibiting them. Violations are punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison and forfeiture of all devices or firearms in violation, and the individual's right to own or possess firearms in the future.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 5:42 p.m.

    I want to know WHY:

    I have to have a background checks,
    fill out forms,
    have my name in a databases,
    and have limits on the number of Sudafed cold tablets I can buy --

    BUT

    no one needs to all that to buy M-15s, AK-47s and THOUSANDS of high power ammo rounds.

    [FYI -- Do not give me the excuse of assault rifles being used for 'deer hunting' -- M-16s and AK-47s were designed specifically for hunting people, NOT deer]

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 5:35 p.m.

    "No sensible "liberal" is proposing eliminating the Second Amendment", one old man.

    And yet this is what liberal commentators are saying in this thread today, Thank you old man, they are not sensible.

  • wide_awake Montpelier, ID
    Oct. 2, 2017 4:42 p.m.

    to Redshirt, who asks:

    "So tell us liberals, outside of banning all guns, how could this have been prevented? You have a person with a squeaky clean record buying guns over a long period of time."

    Well Redshirt, how is it that the shooter -- or anyone, for that matter -- can so easily get their hands on fully automatic weapons of war? Is that ok? Is that normal? If so, then why stop there?

    Why not enable anyone to buy whichever weapon of war they want, Stinger missles or AGM-114 Hellfire anti-armor missles? The Bill of Rights doesn't explictly restrict our rights to such weapons of war, right, so why not permit anything/everything?

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 4:31 p.m.

    To "airnaut " the guy was able to purchase the guns the same way you can. He went to the store, filled out the paperwork, waited until the system showed that he had a clean record then paid for his purchase.

    The problem is that your ilk wants to make buying guns harder. In this case, and so many others, the more restrictive rules and more stringent standards would have done nothing to prevent the sale of the guns. This was a person with a relatively clean criminal history, and nothing that would have flagged him for anything.

    So tell us liberals, outside of banning all guns, how could this have been prevented? You have a person with a squeaky clean record buying guns over a long period of time.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Oct. 2, 2017 4:25 p.m.

    I am a gun owner. I am also in favor of reasonable laws to restrict weapons from those who shouldn't have them. But lets be really honest, none of the laws out there being debated right now would have stopped this incident. None. The man had no criminal or mental health history. He didn't use armor piercing bullets. No silencer. Not even a waiting period would have caught this guy.

    The one law that probably was broken is it is likely this guy got an illegal kit to convert his semi-auto weapons to full auto. And that is one area current enforcement needs to be focused right now - figuring out his source for the likely kits he used.

    I wish there had been some safety net we could have caught this guy with. But nothing really on the books today, or proposed would have changed this much. And lastly, no gung-ho John Wayne gun packing wanna-be rambo had any effect on this either. So lets not pretend that even if all concert goers were packing, it would have changed this.

    Let's chill on the partisan talking points. Let's not quote irresponsible talk radio heads. This was not a simple incident you can easily leverage to any political agenda.

  • AzPete Mesa, AZ
    Oct. 2, 2017 3:25 p.m.

    I fail to see how disarming law-abiding citizens will better protect them from the dangers and threats posed by those who would flout the law.

    Also, why is the NRA the only organization in America that gets blamed for the acts none of its members commit?

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 2:53 p.m.

    "Guns are not the problem. Culture is. It is the result of over four decades of cheapened life, starting with Roe v Wade, and highlighted with removing God from public life."

    What about Canada? Australia? Japan? Germany? France? Norway? Sweden? Those are pretty pro-choice, less-religious places than us (or close to the US for both) but their gun related homicide rates are significantly lower.

    Plus US gun-related homicide rates overall (mass shootings have increased but they're a smaller portion of the ~10k a year) have been dropping the last two decades as we're getting more non-religious (or at least less associated with organized religion) so that doesn't really match up here either.

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Oct. 2, 2017 2:34 p.m.

    " I have no desire to see the second amendment repealed, but talking about common sense solutions to the increased number of people being killed or wounded by civilians with high powered weapons is long over due."

    I won't, but I could explain how to turn a legal assault rifle into an illegal fully automatic assault rifle and it takes a few minutes to do, it's simple. That's the difference between legal and illegal.

    Move the tech down to a hand gun, not as common knowledge as an assault rifle, but I could explain how to do the same to a hand gun, probably about 8 minutes instead of 3 minutes.

    Are we still talking about creating more rules for murders and terrorists to follow - like that will stop them?

    When a person decides to kill a lot of people, it's virtually impossible to stop that thought process. They'll hijack planes and fly them into buildings, on the day of Sandy Hook in China a man went into a school with a knife and had the same tragic outcome, they'll use trucks, they'll use anything. Mainstream religions object to this but offshoots from any religion serve as a scapegoat - really some people are just nuts.

    Sorry for the lack of hope - we can stop it!

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 1:21 p.m.

    Let us put the responsibility where the responsibility lies for this horrific act and that is the gunman.

    Also this is not the President's fault and this is not the time to turn this tragic event into political points by either side.

  • LOU Montana Pueblo, CO
    Oct. 2, 2017 1:17 p.m.

    wrz: immigrants have nothing to do with the shooting!

    Enough with the hate and division!

  • Surf is Up Miami, FL
    Oct. 2, 2017 1:13 p.m.

    @Brave Sir Robin - "Ever been to England? Ireland? Norway? Sweden? Finland? All countries that have a ban on guns. And not a single one of them is a dictatorship, or a police state."

    Pretty weak comeback Robin. Yes, with the exception of Finland, I've been to those countries. Significant crime and terrorism violence against the defenseless. Haven't you been paying attention to world events?

    Dictatorships? Wait for it. Its coming!

    Guess what group of people who refuse to integrate are taking over while the leaders of these countries fiddle? When they do dictatorships will seem a little tame.

    Again, while I understand the desire to be at peace (we all do), thinking like yours will lead to more problems, not solutions. Should someone break into your home I hope the rocks and sticks you must keep in your closet will be enough to repel the intruder(s).

  • barfolomew Tooele, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 12:59 p.m.

    @ Spalding55

    "Passing and enforcing serious firearm control and safety laws may not stop all incidents, but it’s a start."

    Let me modify your statement, if I may.

    "Passing and enforcing serious firearm control and safety laws may not instill a totalitarian government, but it’s a start."

  • airnaut Everett, WA
    Oct. 2, 2017 12:53 p.m.

    Trump speech about this massacre mentioned "God" 6 times,
    and mention "guns" ZERO.

    I essences saying - this is God's problem to fix.
    Not his,
    Not the GOP,
    Not Amarica's.

    Sick!

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 12:41 p.m.

    It's time to have the conversation.

  • barfolomew Tooele, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 12:39 p.m.

    @ Thomas Jefferson

    "I mean if 20 dead kids and 6 dead teachers in Sandy Hook wasn't enough for us to do something then nothing is ever going to happen which will shock our conscience to the point of actually addressing our gun violence problem."

    Gun-control advocates are notorious at simplifying the issue - 'just ban guns and everything will be fine.' And the attitude that conservatives are heartless is just another oversimplification. The problem is more rooted in reality than in your fantasy world where no guns exist. It's not that the right doesn't care. The fact of the matter is that liberals' solution to ban guns or severely restrict them is a solution that cannot and will not ever stop these mass shootings or any shootings for that matter (well, it might stop defensive "good guy" shootings). And anyone who refuses to instill a solution that simply would not work is labeled "hateful."

    And Hillary's war on "silencers" is just too much to bare. I wish they made a silencer that would fit over her mouth.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 12:35 p.m.

    Since we as a nation won't enact sensible gun laws, I would like to make another suggestion.

    Clearly people who commit mass murders are, in part, doing if for attention---"I'll show them,"
    thinking. Those who've studied the motives of terrorists have identified "fame" as a motivating factor.

    So, let's deprive them of the attention. There should be at least a 60-day moratorium on news sources reporting the perpetrator's name, and maybe a permanent ban on showing a photo or any manifesto/message he/she leaves behind, (unless law enforcement needs publicity to aid in the investigation). Instead, let us honor the victims.

    Now, because of the First Amendment the reporting ban would have to be voluntary.
    Would news organizations be willing to give it a try? They could still report on the incidentals of the perpetrator--sex, age, occupation, place of residence etc.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 12:33 p.m.

    I'm tired of "thoughts and prayers" for these horrible incidents. I don't think that God would want us to merely offer empty prayers, but take action instead of continuing to do nothing. Someone tell me why any civilian needs to have the type of weapons that apparently were used here. What is wrong with some sensible controls on the types of weapons that civilians may possess? When we take no action except praying over the dead and wounded, they are meaningless gestures.

  • Another Dave Lehi, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 12:30 p.m.

    It's so predictable, every time there's a tragedy, before the bodies are even cold, and well before all the facts are known, something, something, anything needs to be banned.

    Let's take away people's freedoms... before anyone even knows what happened.

    Hey, I have an idea, why doesn't everyone calm down, wait for the facts, and go from there?

    Emotions are a terrible thing to base policy on.

    I would call this political opportunism, but.... wait, I would.

  • Fred44 Salt Lake City, Utah
    Oct. 2, 2017 12:24 p.m.

    Nobody is trying to ban guns, but why can't we have an intelligent discussion about whether the average citizen really needs to have access to military grade weapons and ammunition where hundreds of people can be killed or injured in a few minutes? I have no desire to see the second amendment repealed, but talking about common sense solutions to the increased number of people being killed or wounded by civilians with high powered weapons is long over due.

  • DN Subscriber Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 12:20 p.m.

    It is amazing how so many people suddenly have solutions to prevent a repeat of this senseless killing spree.

    However, with only the initial news reports to go on, and those are usually wrong, all of these "solutions" are utterly worthless.

    Let's see what the facts are.

    Also, it is amazing that within a few hours the FBI can totaly rule out any terrorist connection, but after a year they are still trying to find a foreign connection to Trump's campaign.

    Pray for the victims and their families, and wait for facts before demanding one sort of solution or another.

  • airnaut Everett, WA
    Oct. 2, 2017 12:10 p.m.

    I'm a liberal.
    I owe several guns.

    So this - "liberals want to take away your guns" argument is just a fake, phony ruse to spin what has happened here.

    Now --
    I do want one of you 2nd amendment guns and glory conservatives to please explain how or why someone can purchase 10+ assault rifles, a fully automatic machine gun, Hundreds and THOUSANDS of rounds of ammo .... without any questions or accountability?

    How/Why - please?

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 12:09 p.m.

    @Thid "When these horrible things happen, its always good guys WITH guns who stop bad guys with guns! Since it is impossible to keep guns out of the hands of bad guys, I will keep my guns because a gun in my hand is always better and more effective than a cop on the phone for protecting my family from bad guys with guns! I refuse to be a defenseless victim like liberals demand!"

    I am not a liberal so I can't speak for them. With my comment I was not advocating for gun confiscation or doing away with the 2nd amendment. I only wish to point out things are out of hand. This poses a major threat to commercial activity. Who will even want to go out in public if things continue like this? We have to figure something out. What will it be?

    It won't be having everybody pack a firearm.

  • Spalding55 Placentia, CA
    Oct. 2, 2017 12:08 p.m.

    It’s truly painful to read the articles of this horrible event!

    @ Neece: Repealing the 2nd Amendment isn't the answer. Most people who are concealed weapons holders are carrying for their own protection.

    What needs to be done? Look at the number of shooting events, Las Vegas concert, Tennessee church, Charleston Church, Orlando nightclub, Aurora Colorado movie Theatre, San Bernardino workplace Christmas party, Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech. The list is getting endless. continuing the current path isn’t working obviously. Do hunters or anyone need an automatic rifle or a semi-automatic rifle that can be converted in less than 10 minutes?

    Passing and enforcing serious firearm control and safety laws may not stop all incidents, but it’s a start.

    For those who feel that carrying a concealed weapon makes them safe, how would they be protected from someone shooting hundreds of rounds from the 32nd floor.

    Recently I visited Victoria and Vancouver. I was amazed at the number of people walking around well into the night seemingly without any concerns for safety, even in dark lit streets. Then I remembered their gun restrictions and I felt safer.

  • LOU Montana Pueblo, CO
    Oct. 2, 2017 11:53 a.m.

    Worf; enough of the lies! Not one channel has said a word about blaming anyone other than the shooter.

    Stop the hate and division!

  • silo Sandy, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 11:46 a.m.

    @worf

    "Media is already blaming Trump."

    Really? The entire media is blaming Trump?

    How about citing some specific news articles where Trump is being blamed. Not facebook posts, not blogs, not op-eds, but specific new articles from the 'media' where Trump is explicitly being blamed for this incident.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 11:40 a.m.

    2nd try

    @thid

    The fact is, on a per capita basis, Chicago is not the city with the highest homicide rate in the
    U.S. New Orleans, Detroit, St. Louis, Baltimore and several other cities have higher murder rates per capita.

    And, as military mom pointed out, enforcement of gun laws is harder when neighbor states have lax gun laws. Though Illinois ranks in the top 10 for stricter gun laws, neighboring states Missouri and Kentucky are in the top 10 for least restrictive gun laws.

  • wrz Springville, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 11:38 a.m.

    @common sense in Idaho:

    "What is happening to our country?"

    We insist on letting in immigrants from certain countries.

    Maybe folks will start listening to President Trump when he insists we keep people from these countries out of the US.

  • neece Hyde Park, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 11:38 a.m.

    @ Vanceone -

    Wow what an ignorant statement! Parties ie: Democrats or Republicans, conservatives, Liberal.... what? So I am less likely to shoot someone because I am what? Where do you get this stuff?

  • worf McAllen, TX
    Oct. 2, 2017 11:30 a.m.

    Very sick!

    Media is already blaming Trump.

  • barfolomew Tooele, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 11:18 a.m.

    @ common sense in Idaho

    "Just read the comments here in this blog. Everything from abolish the 2nd Amendment to let's get more guns."

    I'm assuming your wrote that to show the wide spectrum of opinions from the far left to the far right. I've read every comment posted here up till yours. The funny thing about your comment is that I read, "abolish the 2nd Amendment." And that's from the left.

    I also read, "let's get more guns." But that is also coming from the left.

    I have yet to hear that from any right-leaning commenter on this sight. That is just a strawman argument the left uses to vilify those who do not want gun control. I'm all for the 2nd Amendment. I'm a gun owner. I am fairly conservative. Yet I - and every other conservative I've known or have even listened to or read - does not think the answer to mass killings is that everyone should have absolute unfettered access to guns.

    Seek the truth - dismiss the rhetoric.

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    Oct. 2, 2017 11:14 a.m.

    @Surf is Up

    "With all due respect-- you sir, and people who think like you are the biggest threat to a free republic. Disabling the population is the first thing that needs to happen in order for dictators and a police state to take over; and don't be so naive as to think that we are so enlightened these days-- that it can never happen again. Yes it can."

    Ever been to England? Ireland? Norway? Sweden? Finland?

    All countries that have a ban on guns. And not a single one of them is a dictatorship, or a police state.

    Next argument...

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Oct. 2, 2017 11:05 a.m.

    "You can't spend or defend what happened in Las Vegas"

    Nobody has defended this at all.

    As for owning a gun, in Nice the truck driver who couldn't own a gun was stopped by a gun, that was heroic.

    The problem is the statistics here - put a bunch of people in an are where nobody is allowed to have a gun, and one guy sneaks a gun in, they are sitting ducks. try the same in the state of Israel and it is homicide rather than a massacre because the gunman is shot moments after opening fire.

    There are arguments on both sides - personally I think that the average person is safe and sane, therefore I'd feel more comfortable with rule followers being armed than only the rule breakers being armed.

  • Flashback Kearns, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:56 a.m.

    All you folks that want guns banned need to remember that a firearm is an inanimate object that only works when certain functions are done in order. Same as with a motor vehicle or knife. Both of which have been used lately in other places to inflict harm.

    It is the person operating the firearm that is to blame.

    Whatever problems or gripes or nutcase ideas the shooter had, died with him.

    We need to find out what made him tick.

    Banning the firearms won't solve the problem.

    I own a few firearms and I'm not going to go out and inflict harm on anyone, unless that is the last resort option I'm faced with. The number I own is totally immaterial.

    Whether this shooter had one weapon or twenty, he can only use one at a time. The fact that he used one to inflict this damage to people is bad enough. IF he used more, that doesn't make it any worse.

    This says more about the mental health of America and what is happening in our country. The divides are causing the problem. People are angry for whatever reason. We need to get to the root causes of the anger. And it isn't Confederate statues.

  • MBB Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:35 a.m.

    Most people are not calling for a complete ban of guns. Stop making it an all-or-nothing argument. What most are asking for are reasonable limitations and checks to keep weapons from people who have no business owning them.

    The NRA, and its like, would love to spin this argument as "they want to take away our guns." Why? To increase their profits. They want people to think that they need to stock up on more guns and ammunition before the "libtards" or the "snowflakes" take away their ability to buy them. All the while, they're able to reap the profits and nothing changes.

  • airnaut Everett, WA
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:27 a.m.

    Thid Barker - Victor, ID
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:30 a.m.

    As bad as this is, at least 240 people have been shot dead in Chicago since January! A city with very strict gun control laws! It is a myth that gun control laws prevent these attacks!

    =======

    The difference is Chicago was a one for one killing ratio.
    Bad and not acceptable and I'm not defending it at all.

    But
    In Las Vegas, it was one for 400 ratio.

    Can you even imagine if Chicago's240 killers each shot or killed 400 at a time like this?

    You can't spend or defend what happened in Las Vegas Thid.
    You just can not....

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:19 a.m.

    When these horrible things happen, its always good guys WITH guns who stop bad guys with guns! Since it is impossible to keep guns out of the hands of bad guys, I will keep my guns because a gun in my hand is always better and more effective than a cop on the phone for protecting my family from bad guys with guns! I refuse to be a defenseless victim like liberals demand!

  • neece Hyde Park, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:16 a.m.

    @ Sir Robin

    I am afraid sir it is you that is uninformed. Read the statistics. I really do hate to tell you however all my weapons have never left my room by themselves. When I say it is people who kill people that is a true statement. The guns are only the means. Statistics also prove that cities with strict gun control are some of the most violent with gun killings/shootings... and It isn't the normal John Q. Citizen that is doing it. It is the Criminals! So should we take away everything that might hurt someone just because "Wack - Jobs" are doing this?

  • Lia Sandy, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:15 a.m.

    Any good arguments for owning a machine gun?

    crickets...crickets...crickets...

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:13 a.m.

    If I was a deranged criminal intent on causing massive pain and injury by planning a violent mass shooting, odds are I'm not going to care about what the current laws are but rather I'd do whatever i could to commit my evil deeds.

    The crowd saying "we need to have better rules" are just simply not embracing reality - these people don't care about rules, if they did they wouldn't be murdering other people.

  • TDorsey Cornelius, OR
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:12 a.m.

    It's amazing how many people crawl out of the woodworks when a tragedy like this happens and start spewing their anti-Constitutional ban guns agenda. Gun ownership is legal and a Constitutional right and NOTHING you can do or say will change that. Gun control is nothing more than removing that right from responsible gun owning Americans. Statistic show that here in America more lives are saved by good people with guns than lunatics hell bent on killing people. The shooter in todays tragedy used fully automatic firearms which are BANNED and against the law in the U.S., which proves that criminals will obtain the weapons they want and kill people regardless of any laws or "control" over weapons. Say a prayer for the victims and their families, condemn the shooter and mourn the loss of morality in our country...but don't advocate to remove my right to defend myself and my family.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:03 a.m.

    No sensible "liberal" is proposing eliminating the Second Amendment. But what is needed is some common sense restrictions on military grade weapons and ammo. There is a proposal in Congress right now -- sponsored by NRA among others -- to allow such things as armor piercing ammunition to be sold in civilian gun stores.

    Why? How can any sane person try to justify such things?

    As for trump's speech this morning, we can give credit to his speech writers. But I was simply nauseated by donald's invocation of God's name in his comments. Those words coming from the mouth of man with such an ugly, completely unChristian man is disgusting.

    But NO, we are NOT advocating elimination of the Second Amendment. However, within the bounds of the amendment, there ARE many things that could be done to help ensure our safety without infringing on rights of any responsible gun owners.

    It can be done! It MUST be done!

    Make America Sane (and Safe) Again

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 10:01 a.m.

    "It's long past time to repeal the 2nd Amendment." What about the calls against the first amendment, the fourth, the 13th. Really, the tyrants know no bounds for removing the constitution. One piece at a time.

  • Surf is Up Miami, FL
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:59 a.m.

    Evil continue to walk amongst us. I pray for the survivors, and the families of those who lost loved ones.

    @Brave Sir Robin "It's long past time to repeal the 2nd Amendment...."

    With all due respect-- you sir, and people who think like you are the biggest threat to a free republic. Disabling the population is the first thing that needs to happen in order for dictators and a police state to take over; and don't be so naive as to think that we are so enlightened these days-- that it can never happen again. Yes it can.

    Guns are not the problem. Culture is. It is the result of over four decades of cheapened life, starting with Roe v Wade, and highlighted with removing God from public life.

    True, this maniac shouldn't have had these weapons, but as we've seen in recent months we apparently must now consider banning cars, moving vans, knives, gasoline, Soy beans (an ingredient of Sarin gas). The list can go on and on.

    And this is from someone who, in his youth, lost several friends to street violence. Guns, knives, molotov cocktails. People bent on killing and maiming their fellow men and women are going to find a way to do it.

  • military mom Herriman, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:51 a.m.

    @thid

    Chicago may have strict gun laws but when an adjacent county or state does not, such laws are only a minor inconvenience to those seeking firearms. If you want to fairly assess the efficacy of gun laws, look to the majority of first world countries who have them and enforce them and compare the results to the USA, which is awash in guns as well as in the blood of countless victims of gun violence.

  • taatmk West Jordan, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:50 a.m.

    Horrible! Thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their families. Thank you brave first responders for your heroism.

    Pondering what I can personally do to help resolve this kind of issue....perhaps one thing to do is to oppose Hollywood's glamorization and profiteering over so much violence in movies. You put a lot of garbage into the mind, garbage is going to come out.

    Donating blood to the victims is another.

    Supporting legislation that requires baggage checks for hotels can be another...

    The knee jerk reaction of gun legislation is only going to allow criminals to have guns. I'd rather carry a concealed and feel "safe" than having nothing.

  • Thomas Jefferson Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:46 a.m.

    We have to face the fact that this kind of thing is just part of life in the USA. The price of freedom I guess. I mean if 20 dead kids and 6 dead teachers in Sandy Hook wasnt enough for us to do something then nothing is ever going to happen which will shock our conscience to the point of actually addressing our gun violence problem.

    /Might as well just say "Oh well. Just another day" because that IS going to be the action taken by us and our politicians.

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:43 a.m.

    Brave Sir Robin,

    I run a company that makes human impact and environmental solutions - liberals love me for what I do. My previous company made guns.

    While I'm no longer in the gun business, what you just said used to bring a ton of money to me, because it would cause a scare on the supply side and demand would go through the roof.

    anybody working in guns will sell out as soon as somebody bigger than you says your same words.

    I'm a gun maker, not owner, but I know a lot about the market, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Obama and Fienstien ought to have received commission checks from me.

    Without guns people are still deranged, so while your suggestion is one that you might think is convenient (yet impossible to enforce), if you take guns away then they use trucks or other means, and what stopped the truck driver in Nice - that would be a gun.

    You opinion is shared by many, and I used to watch people put out those opinions and call up my factories to order everything they could get their hands on for the following 2 weeks - and I hate to break it to you but that's probably as far as your opinion goes.

  • common sense in Idaho Pocatello, id
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:32 a.m.

    Matxist - Sure, my comment about Jesus Christ coming to save us was unrealistic. If you believe in the second coming at some point in time it'll happen when it happens.

    My point is we are unable to stop the killing. Just read the comments here in this blog. Everything from abolish the 2nd Amendment to let's get more guns.

    If Jesus came back he'd stop the killing. Can't wait.

  • BlueMoonOden Wilmette, IL
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:31 a.m.

    Even if stricter gun laws are put in place it won't stop anything. Anyone can get illegal guns quite easily. And I lived in Chicago years ago. Does anyone actually think the guns that have killed so many in that city are legal? I can tell you right now. No.

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:28 a.m.

    @neece

    "It is Not the guns that are killing people"

    Uh, yes it is. You need two things to have a situation like this: A motive, and a means. You can't have a mass killing without both.

    The motive is sometimes terrorism. Sometimes it is hate. Sometimes it is mental illness. I hope we're able to address these things, but we'll never be able to fix it all is my guess.

    But overwhelmingly, the means is GUNS! Yes, people could find other ways of carrying out mass killings, but they're all a heck of a lot harder than using a gun. There's a reason bomb attacks are rarely successful - it's hard to build one. Much easier to grab a gun and a few clips and start shooting. Sure, you can plow a car into a crowd and kill/injure some people. But not 400.

    Fortunately most rational people in the world realize that guns are a problem, so I'm hopeful we'll have action on the matter (hopefully a second amendment repeal, but I doubt it) sooner rather than later.

  • GingerMarshall Brooklyn, OH
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:26 a.m.

    @starkat: "Because in the immediate wake of a tragedy is always the best time to bicker politics and sling mud, right?"

    Yes. It is exactly the time.

    We are looking at 50+ dead human beings, over 200 wounded.

    We need to stand in the very center of the blood and carnage to "argue" about politics.

    We need townhalls held in the midst of wall-sized photos of the dead at Newtown and Pulse.

    Every "debate" on stopping the carnage should open with a slow reading of the names of the dead, with pictures of them in health and after they were shot.

    This is exactly the time for real Americans to stop playing word games as demand it be ended.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:26 a.m.

    Can we at least agree that something should be done about this problem? Like I don't even mean agreeing with whatever you think I would support for this kind of thing. Just agree that the status quo is unacceptable?

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:24 a.m.

    When a Muslim commits such an act, it is terrorism.

    When a minority commits such an act, it is called racial rage.

    When a member of the ethnic majority commits such an act, it is called a tragedy.

    Murder, is murder, is murder. This is a tragic act of racial domestic terrorism. And we ought to spend some time contemplating just that. What causes Americans to be so violent

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:14 a.m.

    Are we honest enough to see the real cause of these attacks? There was a time in America where most people attended a church of their choice where they were taught by people they respected to love your neighbor and to obey higher laws, including: Thou shalt not murder! The vast majority of people voluntarily obeyed these laws because they believed they were accountable to God for their actions. As America and the world becomes more secular, and morality is considered "relative", we produce ever more amoral monsters because they don't have any comprehension of good and evil! We are now at the point where we can not build enough prisons or hire enough police to protect us from these human products of secularism.

  • neece Hyde Park, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 9:01 a.m.

    It is Not the guns that are killing people! it is the bad guys who can get a gun just about anywhere. Repealing the 2nd Amendment isn't the answer. Most people who are concealed weapons holders are carrying for their own protection. They are not the ones who are shooting people. Take away the guns and only the bad guys will own them. People are very naive to think gun control is the answer. New York has a gun ban and yet they have higher gun incidents than cities who don't.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:41 a.m.

    In 1994 Clinton signed into law an assault weapons ban. It expired in 2004 and Republicans opposed renewing the ban.

    If we can't be shocked or moved to make adjustments to gun laws or end our love affair with guns when innocent children are mowed down in their classrooms we reap what we sow.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:35 a.m.

    I just read this and it bears putting out there:

    "Human nature contains violence, evil, senseless aggression. But that’s true in every country. We’re the only place where anything remotely like this happens on a regular basis.

    But beyond guns – which are absolutely, absolutely necessary to address and dramatically restrict access to – we need to recognize that we don’t have mass violence only because of guns. We have so many guns because America is a deeply violent society. That goes back generations. " (Josh Marshall)

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:33 a.m.

    "Tragic but at least we still have our 2nd amendment rights."

    But it is certainly time to get serious about adopting serious, common sense ways of preventing anyone from obtaining and using military weaponry. There is absolutely no legitimate reason for anyone to possess an arsenal of high-powered weapons.

    The answer is NOT "more guns" no matter what the most rabid members of the NRA may try to tell us.

    It will be very interesting to see what trump will have to say about this -- or what his speech writers will have him say.

    It's long, long, long past time for us to seek REAL solutions to this even if that means some reasonable restrictions on ownership of military grade weaponry.

    Make America Sane (and safe) Again

  • Dr H LAYTON, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:30 a.m.

    Short of imposing a police state (and even that might not be enough), deranged people will always find means to kill lots of people, whether with guns, cars, homemade bombs, etc. It would have been very easy to plow into this mass of people in an open lot on Las Vegas Blvd with a big 4WD truck and kill dozens. In Britain they don't have a bill of rights that guarantees firearm ownership, so murderous people there have recently used cars and bombs. The answer to these horrific acts is to remember that far more people still die from everyday accidents, and that more connectedness and neighborliness is more likely to prevent these tragedies than more laws, which deranged and criminal people don't obey anyhow.

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:30 a.m.

    As bad as this is, at least 240 people have been shot dead in Chicago since January! A city with very strict gun control laws! It is a myth that gun control laws prevent these attacks!

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:25 a.m.

    It's long past time to repeal the 2nd Amendment.

    2A was fine when the most advanced firearm technology was a muzzle-loader musket. 2A was fine when owning a musket was necessary to keep army soldiers from demanding to spend the night in your house.

    No, a repeal won't magically get rid of all guns. But it would sure make it harder for deranged people to get them. Remember, this guy used a gun that is currently legal to own.

    Repeal the 2nd Amendment now!

  • Utah Girl Chronicles Eagle Mountain, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:19 a.m.

    Horrific tragedy. Impossible to wrap one's head around. The political aftermath will be ugly. We need leadership more than ever.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:09 a.m.

    Again..... the people we need to worry about most are those that don't look like us. They are the average looking guy/gal in our own neighborhoods. It will be interesting to get more of the story behind this guy and what drove him to do what he did.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:06 a.m.

    This event, tragic as it is, will not meet the threshold at which we can have and sustain a reasonable conversation about gun control, and the effect of the gun culture in this nation. The NRA is already implementing their large mass shooting communications strategy, and trump has America tied up in insults to hurricane victims and protesting pro football players. He will provide no leadership on this issue.
    If the guy had banned guns that has to pose some serious questions rather than simply be used as proof bans don't work. Why do rifles that can be upgraded to automatic exist. Why does America have so many people willing to perform the upgrades? How is it you can exist and move about, even into the Mandalay Bay, with no less than ten rifles relatively unnoticed? Is a guy with a rifle in McDonalds a normal thing, and if so, why? What is wrong with our culture that we just accept a new normal and move on?

  • starkat West Jordan, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:04 a.m.

    Because in the immediate wake of a tragedy is always the best time to bicker politics and sling mud, right?

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:04 a.m.

    @ConservativeUtahisBest
    "The guy used a fully automated rifles in the attack. This type of gun has been banned from the US for years now."

    That's not true. Any adult, with a clean record, can buy a Federal Firearm License and buy Class III automatic weapons. You have to sign a consent form to allow the Feds to search your home, at any time, but that's it. American citizens can purchase fully auto machine guns. There is no need for citizens to have full auto weapons, but the NRA will lobby for that right.

  • FT salt lake city, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 8:00 a.m.

    Tragic but at least we still have our 2nd amendment rights.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 7:45 a.m.

    @common sense in Idaho " I'm heartbroken for these victims. The Savior Jesus Christ can't come back soon enough."

    We are beset by the threat of violence at all levels, from guns in Las Vegas to nuclear war in the far east. We have to be about solving these threats ourselves. Though you mean well, your statement is quite beside the point.

  • ConservativeUtahisBest Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 7:44 a.m.

    @marxist

    The guy used a fully automated rifles in the attack. This type of gun has been banned from the US for years now. If the gun was banned how did he have them to use?

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 7:27 a.m.

    The answer from the NRA will be more guns, and still more guns.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    Oct. 2, 2017 7:20 a.m.

    A tragedy. And apparently we accept this as normal.

    I wonder how many more such events we face in the future.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 2, 2017 7:20 a.m.

    Trump blamed Obama when these things happened,
    now we can blame Trump...

    Sad when anyone can own over 10 high powered rifles,
    and thousands of rounds of ammo...and not be noticed...

  • common sense in Idaho Pocatello, id
    Oct. 2, 2017 6:53 a.m.

    What is wrong with people? Human life means nothing anymore? A mass killing and for what? Just to inflict human misery and suffering?

    What is happening to our country?

    I'm heartbroken for these victims.

    The Savior Jesus Christ can't come back soon enough.